#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2014-04-20

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CoderCandyuhm, how many speakers do the Jolla have?00:09
CoderCandyBecause it looks like it should be two, but only the left one on my device works.00:10
EztranIt has one.00:12
william_genanother is mic00:13
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CoderCandyooh, gotcha00:19
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Quufor some reason, warehouse dont show updates anymore06:30
Quubut i can install them from terminal06:31
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memoryleak_hi everyone08:22
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memoryleak_does  anybody know how to solve the icon shuffling bug or when it happens?08:23
Waiteethe thing when the icons stack on each other?08:24
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Nicd-memoryleak_ had a memory leak and died08:24
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memoryleak1hi again...08:26
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memoryleak1memoryleak_: does  anybody know how to solve the icon shuffling bug or when it happens?08:26
Waitee11:24 < Waitee> the thing when the icons stack on each other?08:27
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memoryleak1nope, when the icons are at completely diffetent places than before when i sorted them08:32
Waiteejust sort them again?08:33
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Nicd-memoryleak1: do you have google play installed?08:35
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memoryleak1no, i do not have google plsy08:41
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memoryleak1i do not want to sort then often. if it happens often..08:41
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Waiteenever happened to me08:42
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memoryleak1i read it that other people had the same problem08:47
stephgmemoryleak1: do you have many android apps ?08:47
stephgmy sorting only goes wrong when android apps (in my case from Play) get updated08:47
Morpog_PC___memoryleak1, happened once to me08:48
Morpog_PC___but was a few updates back08:48
memoryleak1i have 3 android apps08:51
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Nicd-some new ambiences: https://plus.google.com/photos/+MikkoAhlroth/albums/595160087834879868908:53
Nicd-(at the end)08:53
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stephgNicd-: cool08:54
stephghave been meaning to get some of mine put up somewhere08:54
stephghow blue do the snow ones come out?08:54
stephg(e.g. the one you have of the path lined by trees in the snow)08:55
Nicd-really blue08:56
Nicd-for some reason the ambience color picker algorithm makes most of them blue08:57
stephgyeah I noticed that :/08:57
Quuyou can edit the colours08:57
Quuiirc it was sqlite -file-thingie somewhere08:57
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TemeVyeah, the colours are in a sqlite database09:02
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TemeVI played around them once09:02
TemeVI think that the ambiances created from photos don't have enough contrast09:03
TemeVbetween text and background I mean09:03
TemeVI made a black and white ambiance. It was on most cases very readable (helped especially in direct sun light) but I had some issue09:05
TemeVcan't remember what it was09:05
TemeVBut a few sliders to select amount of contrast and to choose text colors etc would be nice09:06
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laehtisNicd: awesome, especially I like the blue snow sunshine09:23
Nicd-all the winter ones were taken while walking our dog :P09:24
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laehtisnice! you live in countryside?09:42
Nicd-not really, Tampere09:45
Nicd-the first 7 pictures are from Vaajakoski where I used to live, the rest are from Hervanta or Annala in Tampere09:46
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laehtisokay! Great landscapes you have there. I live currently in Kuopio, and we do have countryside here with same kind of landscapes09:51
laehtisFinnish nature definitely keeps me fascinated09:51
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ggabrielthis one needs some love: https://together.jolla.com/question/1915/bug-timer-not-updated-when-peeking/10:16
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ggabrielit isn't about the timer only fwiw10:16
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Venemohere's a somewhat radical, but I think good idea10:49
Venemowhat do you think?10:49
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M4rtinKVenemo: well, I'm more thinking about "jolla-fix-the-account-management-mess"10:51
Stskeepsweeell, thought is good, practice not so easy10:51
M4rtinKeq. so that an application doesn't need to be made by Jolla to use basic platform interfaces10:52
Stskeepsand don't ask me to elaborate, but it's nothing related to sfiet, nor friends10:52
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M4rtinKoptions integration is another example10:52
Stskeepswe should make the ui more pluggable for sure10:52
M4rtinKyeah, exactly10:52
M4rtinKalso the even screen currently feels almost abandoned10:52
tbr-fithe nativ app SDK is still _alpha_ ffs, maybe put in efforts to give it a beta badge10:53
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VenemoI understand the implications, but I do think that Jolla should hire Lucien to work on Friends10:53
Teguas the application settings show the whole app list, it gaves a feeling that other apps could also use it and not only some of the jolla apps10:53
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tbr-fiTegu: that seems to be/have been the intention10:54
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mcfriskjolla gallery stops playing all my videos after 6-7 minutes, known kernel bugs?10:57
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tbr-fiwhy kernel?10:57
M4rtinKBTW, any well-known "improve-the-gallery" question I should vote for ?10:58
M4rtinKthe current gallery paradigm is breaking down for me due to the huge amount of photos I have on the device10:59
M4rtinKand tracker including random images it finds on the device isn't helping :)10:59
M4rtinK...especially if some of them have timestamps from the future and are always shown on the top :)11:00
mcfriskdmesg shows repeating messages which look like driver/codec problems,and gallery also stops responding like it hanged on a syscall11:00
william-genjolla should improve the UI beauty11:00
VenemoM4rtinK: https://together.jolla.com/question/1154/no-way-to-quickly-navigate-through-a-long-list/11:02
Nicd-oh yes, YTPlayer can now show my subscriptions11:02
Nicd-goodbye android youtube app!11:03
william-gennow,UI is corase11:03
Nicd-another android app squashed :)11:03
coderusdid you tried new Mitakuuluu?11:03
Nicd-william-gen: native youtube app11:05
Nicd-coderus: it's out? :o oooh11:05
william-gengood news11:05
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Nicd-coderus: 0.2-10?11:07
william-genhow to insert one person's nickname on mobile irc client ?11:07
M4rtinKVenemo: yeah, it pretty much boils down to that11:07
M4rtinKVenemo: but I think some gallery specific improvements are still in order, like "show only photos from camera"11:08
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william-gencan galley see files in internal storage or SD card?11:09
Teguboth mixed11:11
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mcfriskf11_2d_data28_val = 0 on dmesg means video playback stops and gallery hangs11:20
coderusNicd-: no, just pre-release currently https://twitter.com/iCODeRUS/status/457662717760135168 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=92160&goto=newpost11:22
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Turskiis stere still no proper battery logger for jolla?11:36
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sharefreeWhen is jolla coming to Asia ?12:44
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VenemoM4rtinK: yeah13:41
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coderusMitakuuluu v0.5-2 final pre-release: https://github.com/CODeRUS/mitakuuluu2/releases/tag/0.5-214:20
mikmalet's see now..14:29
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sharefreehow are you14:42
sharefreeI just saw in the reviews that Jolla crashes a lot of android apps too well14:43
* tbr doesn't have any significant problems with the android apps that /he/ uses14:45
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Eztrandoesn't help that said Android apps also occasionally crash on Android devices...14:48
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sharefreeEztran, but i m not worried as I do not use Android apps from Stores .. I use F-droid which do not seem to have any issues14:52
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EztranF-droid should be fine, yeah.14:55
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* tbr just sent the invitation for the next community meeting to the dev ml16:03
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Kiranostbr: what is that about, not https://lists.sailfishos.org/pipermail/devel/2014-April/003925.html ?16:09
Stskeepstbr: thank you16:09
Kiranosah next meeting16:09
Stskeepstbr: your together.* item re chum, happen to have the link?16:10
Stskeeps(i have it deep in my sorting folders)16:10
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matokingcoderus: Thanks for releasing the source code of Mitakuuluu under WTFPL :)16:26
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coderusmatoking: :)16:28
Stskeepscoderus: good work16:28
coderusStskeeps: thanks :)16:37
tbrStskeeps: https://together.jolla.com/question/13605/visible-open-source-app-community-supported-by-jolla/16:38
Stskeepstbr: thanks16:38
tbrStskeeps: I intend to elaborate a bit in reply to my own mail, just wanted to get that out and clearly separate from meeting announcement16:38
Stskeepsare we aiming for a discussion, or an answer?16:39
Stskeepsjust to understand expectations a bit16:39
Stskeepsor an answer with an discussion surroundings issues/problems/etc16:39
tbrStskeeps: I personally am aiming at clarifying the situation. turning up the pain flame on jolla for ignoring it. Then hopefully a commitment oficially by jolla.16:40
Stskeepsmakes sense16:40
tbrIf I walk away from this meeting with some mushy bullshit *again*, then I'm going to shut the door behind me forever on Sailfish16:40
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tbrcould probably get a more sensible statement out of tizen in less time16:41
fk_lxtbr: strong statement16:41
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tbrfk_lx: you have no idea what's cooking inside me16:42
fk_lxtbr: I imagine16:42
fk_lxtbr: seen on FOSDEM16:42
fk_lxtbr: and I feel it's good you have strong opinions16:42
fk_lxtbr: regarding open source app community story16:43
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Stskeepstbr: i'll make sure we treat every subject of next meeting with due respect, attention, etc16:43
sharefreeSo what is up16:43
Stskeepssharefree: the sky16:43
tbrThis really really boggles my mind. There are people who care and want to do something in their freetime, they offer it in a sketched out way to Jolla and in return you get: silence, nothing, nada, zip16:43
tbrthis is FREE WORKFORCE16:43
sharefreeWhen is jolla releasing OS for Nexus and Samsung ?16:43
tbrthat would enrich the "ecosystem"16:44
Stskeepssharefree: nexus 4 is already out16:44
Stskeepstbr: while i'm pondering, there hasn't been any propositions of a non-free chum right?16:44
Stskeepsie like maemo.org had non-free manual deb upload16:44
sharefreeStskeeps, but not in working state16:44
Stskeepssharefree: it works pretty well16:44
tbrStskeeps: elephant in the room. I won't name it.16:44
Stskeepstbr: nod16:44
sharefreeStskeeps, really ? but videos say bluetooth/ call audio / video playback is not working16:45
tbrsharefree: there is a difference between release of an early adopter image and "fully working"16:45
tbrsharefree: what are you looking for?16:46
sharefreetbr, I am looking for Sailfish OS on a phone that I can buy in China16:46
tbrsharefree: that didn't answer my question.16:47
sharefreetbr, but that i am looking for16:47
Stskeepsok, i have a few hours to kill tonight, time to work on the meeting prep..16:47
tbrsharefree: "early adopter image" or "fully working"16:47
sharefreetbr, well sir fully working16:47
tbrsharefree: no such thing16:48
sharefreetbr, do you have any idea whether Geeksphone Revolution would support it ?16:48
* Stskeeps looks over at his16:48
sharefreeI am looking for Jolla Phone online but they do not ship here so I am going with Geeksphone Revolution if it supports Sailfish OS16:48
sharefreeI do not want Android or Firefox OS .. I want full gnu/linux16:49
TemeVsharefree, have you checked ebay?16:49
tbrsharefree: you are looking for _fully_ working, there is no such thing, except for the Jolla phone itself. Which is currently not for sale in China.16:51
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TemeVsharefree, http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jolla-White-16GB-EU-Sailfish-OS-Mobile-Phone-/121322972644?pt=DE_Handy_s&hash=item1c3f69a5e416:51
sharefreeTemeV, yep first did I did but the issue is they want 3 times the price of Jolla Phone16:51
merlin1991tbr: tbh not even the jolla if _fully_ working, I had some fun with out of the blue reboots yesterday16:52
sharefreethat used16:52
Stskeeps(fwiw other devices have reboots too.. or shutdowns..)16:52
Stskeepsbut doesn't excuse that such a problem exists16:53
fk_lxbtw. speaking of problems - after latest update non of Android apps starts on my Jolla16:53
walokrafk_lx: I had same problem with some apps but reinstalling android support fixed it16:54
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sharefreetbr, I am just asking if Geeksphone Revolution being similar phone can support it in near future16:54
merlin1991Stskeeps: then again n900 and N9 did work stable (after some really bad experience in the beginning)16:54
Stskeepsmerlin1991: nod16:54
fk_lxwalokra: I have that problem with all apps, that includes also Yandex16:54
walokraand reboot has worked for problems like no sound when playing media16:54
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walokrajolla beats my corporate given lumia 800 and have learned to be without corporate emails on phone as jolla's exchange support can't handle the security requirements :)16:56
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fk_lxwalokra: ok, I'm reinstalling Android Support, let's see if it helps17:00
aard_fk_lx: did you do stuff like installing google play?17:03
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* fk_lx is admitting that, hopes he avoids one of Aard's whips17:04
aard_fk_lx: in that case removing android support, manually making sure the directory is empty, and installing it again should help17:04
aard_google play support messes around quite a bit in internal bits of our runtime, so having that break on updates is not too unexpected17:05
walokrai don't have google play but apps extracted from play store like instagram17:05
Stskeepslbt: you around by chance?17:06
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lbtpossibly :)17:06
walokraaard_: is the google play support "working"17:06
fk_lxaard_: roger that!17:06
fk_lxaard_: thanks for help :)17:06
Stskeepslbt: tbr: do you have capacity/time at this easter evening to randomly discuss chum?17:06
Stskeepsi just want to listen at this particular time and ask a few questins17:07
lbtnowish you mean?17:07
lbtin a few minutes?17:07
lbtneed to wrap up some stuff17:07
aard_walokra: well, you can hack it in, but it's nothing we can support officially (and probably never will), so from our side "supporting it" is just "don't break it intentionally"17:07
walokrak, thought so. just as some apps are not on yandex or amazon, it would be easier to use play directly17:08
walokraand aptoide is confusing17:08
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aard_yep. I've been thinking about adding that on my device a few times as well. but always decided otherwise, as I'm testing new versions of the runtime all the time, and it'd be a mess to clean it up every time I update17:09
* fk_lx hopes that in future Sailfish will have such a great native apps, that no android support will be needed17:09
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aard_fk_lx: I think it'll be _always_ useful to have android support (unless android dies), just because you'll _always_ have some companies only doing apps for selected platforms. so I expect that the number of apps you need to run inside the android runtime will get significantly lower, but that there'll always be a handful nice to have apps that are just not available for sailfish (and other obscure platforms, like windows phone)17:12
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fk_lxaard_: a bit other topic - if Ubuntu Touch would become popular it might benefit also Sailfish app ecosystem17:14
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fk_lxaard_: in the sense that there will be common backend and only different frontends17:14
fk_lxaard_: or for lazy ones one non-Sillica UI17:15
walokrathe situation for native apps would be better just if companies would provide open api and not limited ones like twitter, instagram etc.17:16
Stskeepslbt: prod me when ready (sorry, kid woke up..)17:17
lbtyep - just comitting :)17:17
Nicd-does anyone else have android apps shut down when you minimize them?17:18
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Nicd-happens a lot for me and kind of kills the multitasking :P17:19
aard_Nicd-: did you check if it's orientation related close swipe?17:19
aard_that was the most common case when we investigated the issue :p17:20
Nicd-aard_: it's not, also they sometimes die when I go into another app17:20
Teguneed moar ram17:20
rubdosTegu, swapspace? ^^17:21
Nicd-reddit client did this for a long time, then stopped for a while and then started again17:21
aard_Nicd-: can you ssh in, run journalctl as root, and see if there's something interesting from the android runtime?17:21
Nicd-aard_: next time sure17:21
Nicd-journalctl -fa?17:21
Tegurubdos: ah, yea maybe17:22
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Nicd-aard_: nothing17:26
walokraNicd-: i noticed the same earlier (minimize swipe -> close) but it doesn't do it anymore17:27
aard_Nicd-: is there something on app startup?17:27
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Nicd-aard_: on the first time something about stat_hub and that the app 'is not supported'17:28
Nicd-8w 3417:28
lbtStskeeps: 'k all done17:29
mikmaso anyone has any idea why my jolla is silent again? no, it has volume full and is not set to silent mode, it just doesn't ring17:29
Stskeepslbt: okay.. so, chum - i get it, open source maemo extras style on top of a sailfishos target; what would you really want jolla to do? allow it to be in added in store after acceptance of 3rd party repos (like maemo had it) or similarly in developer mode?  [note that all my questions are simply to understand the situation better]17:30
mikmaok, the slider from settings was set to 0 for some weird reason. the volume set with buttons was full17:30
Nicd-aard_: I will attempt to repro and give you the full logs later17:31
lbtStskeeps: how does "yes" sound?17:32
Stskeepslbt: like i have more questions..17:32
lbtyou are not alone17:32
lbtI think the goal is to have a community controlled repo17:32
Yanielwhat about the trusted user system arch has?17:33
Stskeepsokay, so, next up.. what's the plan for users to interact with this repo?17:33
Stskeepsstandard pkcon install?17:33
lbtwith both the words "community" and "controlled" meaning something17:33
Stskeepsor a client on device17:33
lbtI have no actual plan17:33
Stskeeps:nod: okay, how about vision?17:34
Stskeepsassuming the earlier is possible17:34
Stskeeps(which i think it is)17:34
lbthow does the community want to work with Jolla and vice-versa17:34
Yanielwell as an arch user I really like the concept of the AUR17:34
lbtI think tighter integration is good17:34
Yanielie. basically anyone can set up an user repo17:35
lbtYaniel: ?17:35
lbtPPA in ubuntu?17:35
* merlin1991 would prefer a client, but more importantly a way so that the repo url changes with ssu releases17:35
Yanielsimilar yes17:35
lbtyes - I love that idea too17:35
Yanieland packages can be voted to be included in core repos17:35
walokrai like the openrepos + warehouse but building and sources through obs is great (although problems with keeping api keys secret)17:35
lbtStskeeps: so I think aiming to integrate makes sense17:35
merlin1991I suddenly had a few apps less on my device afte the sailfish upgrade because the dependencies in chum were built against old sailfish and hence got removed17:36
Stskeepsthat's probably solveable with a bit of magic17:36
Stskeepslbt: okay, can you tell me a bit more about what that could mean in practice?17:36
Stskeepsconsider me a bit daft :)17:36
Stskeepsi just want to be able to fully explain this, not shoot it down or something like that17:37
lbtnp - I get it17:37
lbtI've not thought about chum for a while so getting my ideas in place17:37
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Yanielhttps://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR for reference17:38
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merlin1991my personal idea would be a store like client backed by an obs repo that gets adjusted with upgrades, so essentially like maemo where "Extras" made it all the way into the official package manager17:38
lbtI think there are multiple levels - Yaniel's AUR and the PPAs and 'home projects' on OBS are different to Chum17:38
Stskeeps:nod: good distinction17:39
lbtmerlin1991: yes - essentially it would be good for Jolla to QA with Chum enabled17:39
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lbtand if needed release with it disabled17:39
aard_lbt: everything but core repositories is now disabled during updates. that'd include chum as well17:40
merlin1991and on the qa side there should be at least a -testing stage where packages get promoted based on a voting system17:40
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lbt(community hat on) we need to respect their need to ensure a good experience17:40
Stskeepsyeah, i wouldn't worry about chum side of things on upgrades17:40
Stskeepsexcept that, of course, repo urls should still match17:40
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lbtdependency issues are the primary concern as always17:41
merlin1991does pkgcon have a concept of priorities?17:42
lbtaard_: how about a 2-phase update?17:42
lbtsystem and then "other repos"17:42
Stskeepslbt: updates would be handled by whatever store client does it17:42
Stskeepsi think that's sane17:42
Stskeepsie, openrepos handles their updates, jolla store handles their updates, ..17:42
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Stskeepsanyway, we're drifting into technical detail :_17:43
Stskeepslet me just look at what chum consists of, today17:43
lbtconsider extras too17:43
aard_chum either needs a 'latest' target, or (probably better) have build targets following sailfish versions. it probably should be ok for jolla to provide an import for mer obs to build against close to release, so that the repo is ready by release (not right now, but we'll be getting to that point in a few months)17:43
lbtChum today is a placeholder prototype IMHO17:44
lbtaard_: I think we have latest now17:44
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lbtor maybe that was just sfos build target17:44
aard_using latest makes it impossible to support older versions17:45
lbtaard_: https://build.merproject.org/project/subprojects?project=sailfishos%3Achum17:45
merlin19911.0.4.20 has some packages inside since tbr didn't yet move them to
lbtyeah - I added a 'latest' for developers and decided not to add to chum - named versions only17:45
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lbtmerlin1991: aside, copy, not move17:45
merlin1991sorry I meant copy17:46
aard_I'd probably organize that different -- one project, with different build targets, and packages disabled on targets where they're not needed17:46
Stskeepslbt: do you consider chum seperate from having to enable developer mode?17:46
Stskeepsif there was a graphical interface17:46
lbtit would be nice yes17:46
merlin1991I would (again based on the maemo extras model)17:46
lbtideally more of a normal-user-level area17:47
aard_Stskeeps: a user _must_ do the 'allow 3rd party repos' change first. there's no point to make developer mode mandatory, though17:47
Stskeepsyes, that's probably fine17:47
Stskeepsaard_: is 3rd party app installation a seperate thing from dev mode these days?17:47
aard_it always was :p17:47
tbrStskeeps: yes, I am available for such discussion17:47
Stskeepstbr: welcome to it ;)17:47
lbthey tbr17:48
tbrStskeeps: please keep in mind that presenting the community with a "take it or GTFO" 'solution' might be counter productive at this point17:48
Stskeepstbr: yes, i'm mainly listening currently17:48
Stskeepsand i personally feel like that this is a thing where community is the ones providing solutions instead17:49
tbrwhat I mean is that Jolla has been strengthening by proxy openrepos and it is something to be taken account at this point, no way around it17:49
tbrStskeeps: yes, but I'd hope that Jolla has some idea what they would like or wouldn't like to see17:49
lbtI think Chum would be something the device could enable for you ootb17:50
M4rtinKI'll just add that IIRC OpenRepos is open to integration with OBS17:50
tbrStskeeps: else we're back at the mushy fluffy nonsense bullshit that the jolla social media accounts tend to spew out if you bring up harder topics17:50
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Stskeepssec, kid waking up again17:50
Stskeepsi think he's teething17:50
tbrfun times17:50
lbtso the untrusted sw dialogue would have Chum as an option  - based on there being a reasonable community QA process in place17:50
aard_lbt: installable through jolla store should be fine, preinstalled on device not so sure17:51
fk_lxM4rtinK: the question is if Open Repos wants community QA17:51
M4rtinKfk_lx: I think the idea was as an addition to the current model17:51
tbrM4rtinK: and nobody is going to argue with that, they can integrate the hell out of OBS, as long as they don't cause abusive load spikes on the builders17:51
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M4rtinKfk_lx: basically some packages would have a "built from open source code on OBS" & link to the source & OBS repo17:52
lbtM4rtinK: no-one's discussed that with me fwiw17:52
lbtbut that's OT atm17:52
tbrM4rtinK: there are certain issues why I personally see openrepos as completely unsuitable as a "community repository for open source software" that would be endorsed by jolla17:52
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M4rtinKsure, I just remember the idea floating around17:52
tbryes, basil mentioned it to me too17:52
tbrit's not hard to pull RPMs from a defined repository into something else, e.g. openrepos17:53
lbtmy opinion on this is that OR is something Jolla should be keeping away from end-users and Chum is something it should be pushing them towards17:53
* tbr agrees with that17:54
tbrpeople are free to do in open mode whatever they want, but there's no need to endorse OR17:54
lbtStskeeps: aard_ ^^ without that I don't see much motivation to do a Chum thing17:54
fk_lxtbr: btw. the word open is overused nowadays for different meanings17:55
aard_lbt: chum is something I'd be ok with in store, OR not :up17:55
clau3hmm, is there a reason why lipstick process connects to internet?17:55
tbrStskeeps / aard_ - and to add to that, the lack of this has me in a holding pattern over chum, as I will not waste my private time on something that a company then suddenly decides to have a different opinion on and didn't bother to communicate17:55
lbtaard_: that's probably enough17:55
tbrfk_lx: open has been inflationary for years17:55
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aard_lbt: but before adding it there I'd need to see QA policy from community for chum17:56
fk_lxaard_: so you are the store guy in Jolla?17:56
aard_fk_lx: no, I'm the release guy17:56
clau3my phone just ate hundreds of MBs today17:56
lbtaard_: agreed17:56
fk_lxaard_: so who is the store guy?17:56
merlin1991no problem there to get a qa policy up, but I think nobody atm bothers untill they know that it will lead to something17:57
lbtI've listed a QA policy as a precondition for progressing chum17:57
lbtmerlin1991: +117:57
clau3of my limited 3g connection, and I'm trying to figure out why.17:57
Stskeepsback, terribly sorry about that -- wife is at church and i'm only one taking care of a small baby17:57
* Stskeeps reads backlog17:58
tbrmerlin1991: +117:58
aard_we're currently probably about 2 months away from having the infrastructure on device ready to think about endorsing something like chum17:58
fk_lx2 months a bit of time17:59
tbrit would be a perspective17:59
tbrif it gets confirmed by jolla17:59
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walokrathat's one information which is nice to know as there's little information about roadmaps regarding jolla & sailfishos18:00
lbttbr: so .. there's this 'untrusted SW' page now. How about if that had a tick box for (or just intalled) a Chum client in the same way that dev mode installs ssh?18:01
clau3anyone knows how to get tcpdump on the phone?18:01
M4rtinKlbt: +118:01
tbrlbt: which one of your 1001 hats are you wearing, you keep confusing me18:01
lbttbr: would that be a "sign of good faith" from Jolla ?18:01
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fk_lxtbr: I think that's the whole problem, Jolla stating clearly if she wants or not to go seriously with Chum18:02
lbt(community hat on)18:02
M4rtinKIMHO every block put between chum & users will drastically decrease their number18:02
M4rtinKand thus also the number of community testers & developer interest18:02
fk_lxlbt: I think tbr wants to hear such stuff from someone with Jolla hat on18:02
tbrfk_lx: that's what's supposedly happening on tuesday18:03
tbrI just wanted to qualify who is asking me this18:03
merlin1991I find the idea of the tickbox in the untrusted page reasonable18:03
lbtfk_lx: yes - but we have to ask them - they can't read minds18:03
aard_lbt: _if_ there's such a link it'd probably just be "open store client, entry 'chum'"18:03
lbttbr: np - it's hard to wear both hats18:03
tbrlbt: I _know_, that's why I ask18:03
lbtaard_: so as if the user tapped on that app in the store; they'd be prompted to install it ?18:04
tbrlbt: the fact that I had to write the invitation doesn't make my job of bringing the controversial chum topic up as a follow up much easier either18:04
Stskeepstbr: i don't see a problem in you doing that, if you had planned such a mail18:04
tbrI'm not sure if "app in the store" would be the right thing18:04
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lbttbr: it's hols - I was busy enjoying myself (note that was not doing chum!)18:05
tbrStskeeps: well, to be honest, it's me doing jolla's community engagement work. which jolla should be ashamed of. full stop.18:05
Stskeepstbr: okay, message received loud and clear18:05
aard_lbt: most likely store client opens, shows the 'chum' page with description, you read it, and then decide if you install it, or not18:05
fk_lxmaybe a checkbox during installation process also kind of  "I want to use community extras repo"18:05
lbttbr: the problem I see (knowing a bit) is that the app lives outside the SFOS repos and only exists in harbour18:05
aard_tbr: how else would you like to get it on the device?18:05
Stskeepstbr: thank you for sending it, you're right18:06
lbtaard_: yes - that's what I understood - OK18:06
tbraard_: I'm not sure we haven't said if chum comes with an app18:06
Stskeepswell, it's like 'enable developer mode' kind of app18:06
lbttbr: do we want to use store app to install chum apps?18:06
tbrwhich wasn't in the nokia store either18:06
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tbrit was in settings18:06
lbtwhat about libraries?18:06
aard_Stskeeps: no, it can't be, as developer mode lives in our repos, while chum does not. it's technically different18:06
tbrso I see settings developer mode as sensible18:06
tbrbut that's not necessarily the _right_ thing18:07
tbrit depends on the target audience18:07
aard_tbr: the way nokia uses store and jolla uses store are two completely different things18:07
Stskeepsdid harmattan have extras, ooi?18:07
Stskeepson device18:07
aard_we even put our own stuff into store18:07
lbttbr: I can accept that Jolla, like Nokia would want a warning18:07
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* Stskeeps goes research how that was done18:07
tbraard_: I was talking about the user visible path18:07
M4rtinKchum could be a good way to fix a bit the current bundling madness18:07
lbtM4rtinK: yes18:07
M4rtinKas store apps basically have to bundle everything currently18:07
lbtM4rtinK: but it's a bit scary18:08
Stskeepsin n900 times, extras was there (after PR1.3 something); and you could enable the repo from repository management18:08
lbtand I think aard_ would break any chum upgrades18:08
Stskeepsand it'd tell you hell and fire may rain down, you OK'ed, and you'd get apps through application manager18:08
lbtStskeeps: integrated?18:08
Stskeepsyeah, there was no real 'store' kind of thing18:08
Stskeepsat least not in a sane form back then18:09
fk_lxit was indistinguishable18:09
M4rtinKIIRC there was Ovi and no one was using it18:09
fk_lxM4rtinK: true18:09
tbryes, that's what I'm thinking. Does Chum need a UI, frontend?18:09
lbtI think so18:09
tbrthe answer is most likely yes18:09
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aard_given how jolla uses the store having it preinstalled would violate our philosophy here. having shortcuts from settings to find it in store should be ok, though18:09
Stskeepsnext question is if there's anything that can query packages from repo X from packagekit18:09
lbtwe can't trust store to do the right thing18:09
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Stskeepsjust to see how easy that'd be18:10
lbtaard_: seems like it wouldn't be too hard to hit 'install' for the user too - assuming there was a tick box18:11
lbtaard_: at this point there's a big disincentive to work on chum due to OR momentum18:11
tbrbut what happens if the user wants to install chum, but hasn't enabled developer mode?18:11
lbtand IMHO that needs some assistance to overcome18:11
Stskeepstbr: that should be fine, they're seperate18:11
Stskeepsbut, unless you have a ui, it's a bit odd to interact with ;)18:12
aard_tbr: you need to allow 3rd party repos, nothing else18:12
clauwhat happened to mer-tools repo after the last update? :(18:12
tbrStskeeps: I see that as a problem. "But I installed it, no worky!!!!111!"18:12
clauI don't have it at all in my repos (ssu lr)18:12
lbtclau: #sailfishos ?18:12
Stskeepsi don't personally see any other way around it than to have some sort of ui app to browse it18:12
Stskeepsas terminal comes with developer mode18:12
clauwell, I'm kind of freaking out... the phone is doing constantly traffic which I can't account for.18:13
merlin1991regarding harmattan and extras, harmattan had a package in the nokia repos that contained an aegis domain for appsformeego to enable the apps4meego client to install stuff and whatnot18:13
M4rtinKone can never have enough graphical repo frontends :)18:13
clauand I'd like to get tcpdump on it, but I don't remember from where. any pointers?18:13
Stskeepsclau: ssu ar mer-tools but under your own risk18:13
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clauconsidering how things are working now, I'll probably end up doing a reset anyway :)18:14
aard_lbt: I don't see how openrepos can be cleaned up to get somewhere close to a reasonably stable state that's likely to stay stable, so it's completely irrelevant to my release work18:14
claubut thanks18:14
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Stskeepsin update5, how is openrepos installed atm anyway?18:14
Stskeepsenable 3rd party repos, find rpm off interweb, install?18:14
aard_Stskeeps: still as usual, you need to manually install the rpm18:14
lbtaard_: yeah - but what I'm not sure about is that when Untrusted SW is enabled - what's to prevent OR app in store?18:15
lbtand this is where I want to see Jolla 'endorse' a more controlled approach18:16
Stskeepsand with the idea of chum, it'd be store->find chum->install->.. enable 3rd party repos or be queried about it?18:16
aard_lbt: the or-app as it works now just adds repos via 'ssu ar'. this behaviour won't be allowed in store. if you want to have additional repos you'll have to define feature descriptions for ssu18:16
lbtStskeeps: that would be one approach - the other would be 'enable from settings' and device says "would you like chum client now"18:17
clauStskeeps, is there a legitimate reason why lipstick is connecting to an IP in US? It looks like it's owned by amazon.18:17
lbtaard_: so chum repos go into ssu?18:17
fk_lxStskeeps: would be good if enabler (checkbox to enabled 3rd party software) would be during install of Chum client from store18:17
Stskeepsclau: something will be querying if the internet connection is up or not18:17
clauk, makes sense18:17
aard_lbt: so far I'm expecting to see _one_ chum repo18:17
lbtaard_: yes18:17
Stskeepslbt: so, there's no way around a lot of legalese to allow 3rd party installs, rest is easier18:18
aard_and the chum package from store would bring a ssu feature description, which enables the repo18:18
lbtStskeeps: that's fine and accepted18:18
Stskeepsaard_: makes sense18:18
lbtStskeeps: it's making the chum client 'easy' to install vs 'now you have to jump through some more hoops'18:18
lbtI want to tweet the full install instructions in < 140 chars :D18:18
M4rtinKmore hoops == less users/devs18:19
lbtM4rtinK: ye18:19
fk_lxlbt: tweeter for instructions, ambitious :)18:19
lbtStskeeps aard_ and I'm pushing at this because I think we need to boost the community app side of Jolla18:20
M4rtinKand considering all chum developers submitting stuff to chum will be doing it for free in their free time...18:20
tbrit needs to be made clear in the process (not instructions) what people get into, but the instructions should be simple18:20
fk_lxlbt: how about Sailfish manual on Twitter "Go poke lbt on #sailfishos" ;)18:20
tbrif it's harder than OR → game over for jolla18:20
aard_tbr: what people get into should be in the package description displayed by the store client18:20
Stskeepslbt: i think mission is understood, just getting a better understanding of the whole picture18:20
ggabrielfk_lx: they won't find the hashtag :P18:20
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M4rtinKpeople will jump through burning hoops if they have to to a commercial app store, but might be a bit hesitant otherwise18:20
lbttbr: yes - let me see what the concrete proposal was .. few lines back now18:21
fk_lxggabriel: :)18:21
tbraard_: exactly18:21
Stskeepsnow.. for the marketing pitch - and sorry, i have to ask this: what's the benefit of chum? for users, for jolla, for developers18:22
Stskeepsjust to understand what you think about it18:22
Stskeepsignoring openrepos totally for a moment18:22
tbrStskeeps: I believe I've outlined this in the past, but here goes:18:22
tbr- only open source apps18:22
aard_Stskeeps: easy, I'll get more beers on meetings when I put the enablers for that into releases :p18:22
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tbr- easy to install, can have dependencies18:22
tbr- community driven18:23
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tbr- quality apps that use unstable or unkosher APIs and then can progress into store once APIs available18:23
lbttbr: Stskeeps: aard_: the install proposal for chum. 2 variants18:23
lbt1) Settings -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow, tick Install Chum client. Done18:23
lbt2) Store -> Chum client and select install -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow. Done18:23
Stskeepstbr: :nod:18:24
tbrand a couple of other things I keep forgetting18:24
fk_lxlbt: 2) is better :)18:24
merlin1991Stskeeps: the benefit is to be able to drop libraries and stuff in chum18:24
M4rtinK3) both ? :)18:24
tbrlike transparent build process, auditable from source18:24
M4rtinKyou need to have a client anyway18:24
fk_lxM4rtinK: +118:24
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tbrwhat runs on your device is what's in git18:24
tbrno binary upload bullshit bingo18:24
lbtfk_lx: yes - I think we need both18:24
merlin1991things like various python librariies that make hacking so much easier when readily available18:24
aard_M4rtinK: if 1), then it'd be both, as that'd be just a shortcut to store client18:25
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M4rtinK+ providing the chum client RPM, so that people can easily install it themselves from CLI without fiddling with GUI nonsense :)18:25
merlin1991for me that's the biggest point, the possibility to make a library available to everone without having to justify it in mer / nemo mw18:26
tbrif executed properly this will flourish and bring more apps and also reference source code to jolla18:26
Stskeepsand i'll be sure to get this question: what is it going to cost to assist? what effort needs to be put into it?18:26
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M4rtinKmerlin1991: exactly, might come there eventually though but can be used much sooner18:26
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lbtyes - I am really worried about handling chum over SFOS upgrades though << aard_18:26
Stskeepslbt: i'm not worried about that after update518:26
tbrotherwise you have a shiny new location or whatever API and no code how to use it18:26
Stskeepsthe disabling repos at upgrade -> no problem18:27
M4rtinKmerlin1991: and others can build on it !18:27
tbrand people don't fare well on documentation only18:27
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lbtStskeeps: no, not for SFOS, for chum!18:27
Stskeepsyes, i know18:27
Stskeepsokay, now i think i get what you mean18:27
lbtI'm not worried about SFOS - I think it'll be fine18:27
aard_lbt: I don't see a big problem there18:27
lbtaard_: think about it18:27
Stskeepsaard_: let me try to phrase it into something where you'll go ugh too..18:28
tbralso with jolla: alpha is the new beta, so what's the problem? (a jab at the _alpha_ grade SDK)18:28
lbtwe also may need to pre-build Chum somehow18:28
Stskeepsaard_: let's say the packages installed from chum at update5 is built against update5 but somehow ABI incompatible with what update6 brings, naturally, chum installed apps and libs need to upgrade accordingily..18:28
Stskeepsto the new update6 chum18:29
lbtbut chum is disabled18:29
merlin1991or they go poof during the sailfish upgrade18:29
lbt(and would need to be pre-built and pre-QA'ed too)18:29
lbtmerlin1991: yes18:29
lbtcan we push RC's to OBS ?18:29
aard_Stskeeps: I answered that earlier, imo it should be possible that we provide a build-target for an upcoming update 1-2 days before to have chum ready when we push the update out18:29
Stskeepspost-upgrade hooks? ..18:29
Stskeepsaard_: okay, but something needs to do the upgrade ;)18:30
lbt... he's a fast typer18:30
Stskeepsaard_: as store client wouldn't do it18:30
aard_Stskeeps: have a small chum agent check after reboot if version changed, and if so, run update?18:31
Stskeepsaard_: i guess that could do18:31
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Quui am small agent18:31
lbtanything that had a direct == depend on something in SFOS would get kicked by pk even if chum had a candidate in next release repo18:32
lbteg Qt18:33
aard_Stskeeps: my main worry is getting feature support with 3rd party isolation ready, everything else will be simple :p18:33
Stskeepsyeah.. feature integration deadlines are always fun18:33
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Stskeepsokay, let's assume for a moment that store apps could build against chum.. what benefits/problems/etc would you see?18:35
walokrahow's chum apps differ on store apps when ABI changes? doesn't both need updates?18:35
Stskeepswalokra: store apps aren't admitted if they rely on ABI-problematic libraries18:36
lbtStskeeps: store apps? you mean harbour?18:36
Stskeepslbt: yes18:36
lbtthat would be quite different to current plans (but very cool)18:36
Stskeepsi'm just playing hypothetical long-term here18:36
merlin1991why should store apps build against chum?18:36
walokraStskeeps: ah, i see18:36
Stskeepsmerlin1991: well, chum could provide community or in-progress APIs..18:36
lbtmerlin1991: real community participation for providing libs and making chum a 1st class repo18:36
merlin1991makes no sense when you limit what is in harbour compared to what can be installed from jolla store due to settings re chum18:37
lbtwell - 2nd class to be fair18:37
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Stskeepsi'm just trying to find extra benefits, fwiw18:37
merlin1991having the situation of "it's in store, but you need to enable this other thing with huge warnings if you really want to install it ..."18:37
lbtmerlin1991: yeah - but we (community) get to write the semi-official repo libs in the open18:38
fk_lxmerlin1991: warning with "hair loss" :)18:38
fk_lxStskeeps: my favourite type of warning in your mails ^18:39
fk_lxabout Sailfish on Android18:39
lbtStskeeps: benefit : seamless(!) upgrade for chum users18:39
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Stskeepsyou're kinda right, yes18:40
lbtmore capability for Harbour apps18:40
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lbt(nb you didn't ask for risks .. please don't they're scary)18:41
lbtlets look to +ve first18:41
Stskeeps(what could possibly go wrong..)18:41
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lbta genuinely collaborative approach18:42
lbtanyone else ?18:43
lbtwhat kinds of things would go into chum that are not doable in Harbour?18:43
lbttbr: ?18:43
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tbrlbt: daemons, telepathy plugins, ...18:44
M4rtinKI guess for example the community l10n for one18:44
Yanielmaliit plugins18:44
tbrgood point18:44
fk_lxM4rtinK: +118:44
M4rtinKwell, until it is picked up officially18:44
M4rtinKhopefully :)18:44
M4rtinKpatch manager stuff (also until hopefully integrated)18:44
Morpog_PC__lbt everything that gets blocked in harbour18:44
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lbtMorpog_PC__: wrong answer :D18:45
lbttbr: I think this would force the community to be more restrictive tbh18:45
merlin1991daemons are a big point18:45
locusflbt: alternate homescreens18:45
Morpog_PC__err, not blocked but rejected because of harbour limitations ;)18:45
lbtnot to say we should not block them - but with great power....18:45
M4rtinK..come spectacular explosions :)18:45
Stskeepsi should take some time to read the old maemo.org extras-by-default threads18:46
lbtM4rtinK: exactly - and then getting it restored would take a long long time18:46
YanielM4rtinK: haha18:46
tbrlbt: we shouldn't make chum another harbour though18:46
lbttbr: no18:46
M4rtinKtbr: +118:46
tbrlbt: if it's easier to do things with OR, people will give Jolla the finger18:46
lbttbr: but I think we should ask for responsible maintainership ?18:46
M4rtinKalso another category for chum: runtimes18:46
Stskeepsthat was fwiw maemo.org extras-devel's hardest problem18:46
Stskeepser, extra18:47
M4rtinKExtras has haskell, prolog, Mono, Java, RenPy,...18:47
Stskeepsthat it was just easier to push (and use) extras-devel18:47
lbtStskeeps: what were the actual problems nokia experienced with extras?18:47
Stskeepslbt: the problems weren't nokia, in practice, it was community's18:47
lbtdo we have anyone who may know?18:47
tbrStskeeps: it needs some well timed explosions in testing/devel ;)18:47
Stskeepsthat there wasn't a lot of interest in 'stable' or 'testing' level18:47
Stskeepsand developers didn't care enough to push themselves through testing18:48
lbtStskeeps: I see that potential too18:48
tbrso devel was like OR?18:48
lbttbr: yes18:48
Stskeepstbr: pretty much18:48
lbtscary mess18:48
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Yanielthat is devel18:48
merlin1991maemo extras made the mistake to allow a "devel" repo where first stage promotion to testing was just a click away for the developer, so devel turned out to be the "just upload to it" repo18:48
lbtnot so much "if" as "when" it breaks your device18:48
M4rtinKthe community QA interface in Extras sucks for one18:49
aard_Stskeeps: what I said earlier about "enabling chum on devices" I meant the _stable_ branch of chum. for _testing_ or _devel_ branches of chum I'd expect people using it to enable developer mode and add the repo there18:49
M4rtinKso most people do not bother18:49
Stskeepsaard_: nod18:49
lbtaard_: +1018:49
Stskeepsaard_: still, people were persistent..18:49
merlin1991aard_: +118:49
M4rtinKif it was integrated in the UI, it wouldn't be such an issue18:49
lbtM4rtinK: I'd resist that for the reasons Stskeeps mentioned18:49
M4rtinKeven better if Jolla account could be used, not yet another one18:49
lbtdevs need a big motivation to do QA18:50
tbrlbt: that's why OR is hugely popular with devs. zero QA18:50
lbtI've seen some of the Harbour apps that fail for really simple reasons (like 'doesn't work' )18:50
lbttbr: yes18:50
tbrthe magic of the free market err karma err reputation? will solve it!18:50
* lbt sprinkles karma dust18:50
Stskeepsanyway - i have enough data to brew on now and explain chum vs other things now18:50
Stskeepsthanks guys18:50
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merlin1991tbr karma was the maemo way to value devlopers, it was calculated from wiki contriubtions ...18:51
lbtStskeeps: np - useful brain primer for tuesday18:51
tbrfor one thing OBS is great at pulling teeth about missing dependencies etc18:51
Stskeeps(also thanks to aard_ for pitching in with technical enablers)18:51
tbrbut if the developer does their homework and it builds cleanly on SDK, then it's at most adding some dependencies to sped18:52
merlin1991see http://wiki.maemo.org/Karma18:52
aard_tbr: the lack of QA is exactly why we can't endorse OR (and won't test with it in our release testing)18:52
lbtStskeeps: aard_: I think keepin chum enabled during update may be the only sane option. Community would *have* to collaborate on freezing Chum and RCs though18:52
tbraard_: the lack of QA is why I have such a strong negative opinion of them too18:52
Stskeepsone more thing while i remember..18:52
Stskeepsdo you see anything in chum that'd help in 'make contribution to sailfishos itself' easier?18:52
tbraard_: as a thankyou I get insults on the mailing list whenever I get near the topic of OR18:52
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lbtStskeeps: yes - libs18:53
tbrStskeeps: yes, it can potentially bring platform things too18:53
lbtStskeeps: the problem for that would be that any 'patched mw' would be rejected I think18:53
tbrsee telepathy plugins18:53
aard_tbr: I gave up arguing after the first time OR broke our updates :)18:53
fk_lxtbr: strrrrong people behind it :)18:53
tbrstrrrrrong with the curse words, yeah18:53
lbttbr: yes - plugins and contributions rather than fixes18:54
tbrfixes would be problematic anyway18:54
lbtStskeeps: could you see chum help with fixes and mods to sfos? I can't see how18:54
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tbras you don't want to touch libs that are on device, there be dragons18:54
aard_lbt: it might make sense to have two chum repos -- one which only has packages not replacing packages of core sailfishos (enabled per default), and one which contains patched mw (disabled per default, and definitely disabled during updates)18:54
lbtaard_: I'd support that - but not link it to chum per-se18:55
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tbrlbt: +118:55
M4rtinKwell, OR is the only thing keeping most devs I know on Sailfish18:55
lbtmore some kind of contrib18:55
M4rtinKI think the only developer I personally met that has an app in Harbour is lbt18:55
lbtand OBS lets us build a chum-contrib against it easily18:55
lbtM4rtinK: I have 2!18:55
tbrM4rtinK: yes, because jolla has slept through the whole community repo thing, ignoring all wakeup calls18:55
aard_not getting packages masking sailfishos-packages in should be checked for by the automated promotion checks to stable (that should be in the proposed QA guidelines from you)18:56
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aard_tbr: if sleeping through then only because some developers insisted on using the remaining 7 hours every day for sleeping :p18:56
tbrM4rtinK: the idea of having something like chum was around before OR jumped on the jolla band waggon18:56
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M4rtinKcase in point: Foursail, Czech/Slovak translations, Mitakuuluu, thps apps and even modRana...18:56
tbraard_: prioritization is jolla's responsibility18:57
lbttbr: https://together.jolla.com/question/39360/official-announcement-heads-up-delaying-one-release-during-summer/  takes a lot to wake a sailor :)18:58
aard_"get device out and stable" is first priority, or we just don't exist. we just fully reached that a short time ago, and now we're moving onto other things (like more community involvement)18:58
lbtand even with community hat I can respect how much work Jolla has to do to just ship. So I'd not call it sleeping through the calls to action :)18:59
tbraard_: sure, it comes at significant cost though. like having to clean up this whole OR mess18:59
Stskeepstbr: btw, what you're expecting out of the meeting is that there's somebody from jolla who's empowered to commit us to certain direction based on meeting input? or specific people18:59
Stskeepsfor your particular topic18:59
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aard_tbr: the cost is still less than "stop existing"19:00
fk_lxStskeeps: probably, because now everyone wears community hats19:00
tbrStskeeps: I expect a statement from jolla (the company™), yes. I believe I said that already.19:00
Stskeepstbr: alright19:00
aard_fk_lx: I don't, I don't have time for community. I'm here only with my jolla-hat :p19:00
fk_lxaard_: well I know you are always yourself and honest :)19:00
tbrStskeeps: not like I didn't ask for it in public and in private a dozen times already19:00
Stskeepstbr: :nod:19:00
fk_lxaard_: btw you don't have Jolla hat (logo) on Together :)19:01
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lbttbr: I suggest you take my 1) 2) list from before then19:01
lbtit's a reasonable ask I think19:01
aard_fk_lx: yeah, it's not mandatory to have it, so there's some process to ask for it. I couldn't care less about having it (plus most people know I'm working for jolla anyway), so I didn't bother19:01
tbrlbt: sorry? I lost you19:01
lbtcheck the log :)19:01
fk_lxaard_: :)19:02
* tbr is AFK, reading logs19:02
* Stskeeps will probably go afk for the night too19:02
lbttbr: 39mins ago19:02
* Quu gets another beer19:02
aard_lbt: so you check the timestamps, but you're too lazy to copy and paste it? :p19:03
Stskeepsok, time to get some rest.. yet another easter breakfast tomorrow with likely baby wakeup at 5:30..19:03
Stskeepssomething that'd help a lot is if somebody can grok at if it's easy to use packagekit api to just get packages from a certain repo name19:03
lbt1) Settings -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow, tick Install Chum client. Done19:03
lbt2) Store -> Chum client and select install -> Untrusted SW -> tick Allow. Done19:03
tbrlbt: you mean the two step process you proposed?19:03
lbtand context around it too19:04
lbtyeah - that's all :P19:04
Stskeepsthen a 'chum store' should be easy19:04
aard_Stskeeps: iirc it should be possible, but packagekit is on a similar level like xulrunner for me -- I'm happy I forgot the details :p19:04
walokrai myself use openrepos just because it's faster to provide new versions than harbour and it has web view to show your app (i have my own site also)19:05
walokramy app is also in harbour19:05
tbrlbt: well, some general commitment would already be enough, but yeah, it's a sensible direction19:05
tbrlbt: like commiting to actually work with the community on this and asking the community for X, Y, Z19:06
M4rtinKI'must also say that the OpenRepos UI is in my opinion currently much better that Harbour :)19:06
M4rtinKboth the app and WebUI19:06
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fk_lxspeaking about web view, anybody knows when it's comming - request on Together has a lot of votes: https://together.jolla.com/question/2721/jolla-application-store-web-version/19:06
walokrawhatever direction you go, there's a need for a web view to the app store19:06
tbrlbt: right now we're still at square zero, for all I know jolla might be just happy with OR and people using that (ignoring the last hour here)19:06
aard_tbr: once I see a sensible QA policy you can get my commitment as release guy :p19:06
tbrand yes, the thought corssed my mind more than once19:06
walokraand i'm also concerned about QA on OR19:07
fk_lxaard_: btw. who is the store guy? or it's a secret? ;)19:07
tbraard_: not necessarily something I'd like to take on alone though, I tend to favor discussion and input19:07
walokrayou can't know what you get :)19:07
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lbtfk_lx: what do you mean 'store guy' ?19:08
lbtQA? app? backend?19:08
tbrlbt: note how much work expliclitly went into making sailfish OR proof, while zero happened around chum19:08
M4rtinKwalokra: well, if it is an application of a developer you have known for years :)19:08
fk_lxlbt: responsible for the store app, store etc. kind of manager19:08
aard_fk_lx: I'm not sure if I should name something here. we have one doing mainly store, though what goes into store overlaps a bit into releases, and engineers have a say as well19:08
lbtfk_lx: manager?19:08
fk_lxlbt: chief engineer :)19:08
walokraM4rtinK: just entered this "world" when I got Jolla :)19:08
lbttbr: yeah - OR was causing actual problems19:08
fk_lxlbt: I mixed up names ;)19:08
M4rtinKwalokra: well, then download numbers & comment I guess :)19:09
fk_lxlbt, aard_ : chief store enginner19:09
walokraM4rtinK: well, people tend to download whatever19:09
tbrlbt: that should be booked as "cost for not having chum" ;)19:09
aard_tbr: there was no special work to make sailfish OR proof, that was just generic stuff we needed to do anyway. just that some of the things happened a month earlier than originally thought as OR broke more things than expected19:10
lbttbr: hehe19:10
aard_and the work on 'generic stuff' there is not done yet, some of the things we'll need to make chum work are still missing. and again, that's not something we're doing for chum, but just something that needs to be there to have it work19:10
tbraard_: I know, but OR was repeatedly mentioned around releases and changelogs. that's waaaaay more official attention than chum ever got. that's my point.19:10
tbrregardless of why the work was done19:11
aard_tbr: I think the only thing we mentioned was "if you have OR you're breaking stuff. have fun"19:11
Stskeepslog.04-15-2014:[17:06:30]<grande_> #info Karl Granström, Jolla store & Harbour / sailor19:11
fk_lxStskeeps: thanks :)19:11
Stskeepsprolly the guy to prod, but, be aware that he's a bit huggy19:11
tbrheh, the community meeting becomes public reference ;)19:11
fk_lxStskeeps: for beeing informative19:11
lbttbr: what happens in irc does not stay in irc!19:12
aard_tbr: so, if you break our next update I'll mention chum in release notes as well :p19:12
Stskeepsalso, we don't have a 'chief store engineer'19:12
tbraard_: please do, we'll be famoussssss19:12
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Stskeepsin fact, i wouldn't want to wish that title on anybody..19:12
Stskeepsfk_lx: any queries regarding store, harbour goes through developer care, though, but if you bump into grande, you can have a talk19:13
aard_Stskeeps: probably jope is closest to a chief store engineer, at least he's storing all the devices :p19:13
M4rtinKcall it releng :)19:13
Stskeepsreleng is just a fancy name for "The People Who Say No"19:14
tbroh, is that the moment where we also throw "devops" in, just to get closer to bs-bingo?19:14
fk_lxStskeeps: ok thanks for information Chief R&D disruptor Officer :D19:14
M4rtinKand docker19:14
M4rtinKSailfish should support Docker ! :D19:15
tbrvirtualization and containers!19:15
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M4rtinKand os-tree and ATOMIC updates ! :)19:15
Aardtbr: if you port our kernel to at least 3.10 we'll add container support. :p19:16
Yanieltbr: "what happens in irc does not stay in irc" I really hope so because irc has proven the most successful place for learning by osmosis19:16
fk_lxSailfish should support community :P !!!19:17
tbrAard: I've been using LXC for quite long, no need for 3.10 ;)19:18
Aardtbr: there are some additional control group features that would be pretty nice to have which our kernel does not have19:18
tbryeah, I know there was movement recently19:18
tbrstill could be a fun exercise to get LXC going on the jolla. shouldn't be too hard19:19
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CraigAanyone in here with netflix feel like helping me test something for a few minutes?19:26
walokraCraigA: test what?19:31
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CraigAI need to test Netflix Canada support for my DNS service, but that would require someone outside Canada.19:33
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walokraI'm in Finland19:34
CraigAwould you be willing to spare 5 minutes to help me test?19:34
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walokrajust say what19:34
CraigAmay I pm you?19:34
walokraof course :)19:34
walokrathe canadians, always so gentlemen :)19:35
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lbttbr: lxc and systemd are (will be) mutually exclusive19:46
lbtuntil cgroup controller delegation is resolved19:46
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Aardlbt: when did they break things?19:52
lbta year or so ago19:53
Aarddon't see any issues with systemd-20819:53
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lbtat that point I dropped the idea of lxc contained SDK19:55
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tbrlbt: oh, ok, interesting20:01
Aardlooks like the current way would still work for a while, and once it stops working something like the sdk would not need to care about it -- you just need recent enough lxc20:01
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M4rtinKwell at least whatever Docker uses works fine with systemd20:07
tbrdidn't docker recently go NIH and invent their own container?20:08
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* Aard has no idea what docker is20:09
tbrit used to be a wrapper around lxc20:09
tbrnever used it20:09
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tbrbut then I only used lxc in the "here's user space, here's init, run!" version, not the single app scenario20:10
AardI gave up on wrappers around container or virtualization long time ago, after having a look at libvirt20:10
ppit's evil but just look at the command lines libvirt gives to qemu, wouldn't want to handle those manually either :-)20:12
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Aardpp: I nowadays have a small shell script just handling the usecases I need. it just works20:13
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Aardlibvirt has a shitload of dependencies I don't want on a machine, and breaks stuff in very interesting ways20:14
lbtunshare is enough for the sdk20:15
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M4rtinKlibvirt is fine :)20:41
M4rtinKthe real fun starts with virt-manager :)20:41
M4rtinKa marvel of engineering :)20:41
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