#jollamobile log for Saturday, 2014-06-14

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faenilmorning08:24
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fluxnice, latest upgrade apparently broke android sounds for me :/08:38
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Anz_flux: broke?08:46
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fluxaandroid apps stay silent08:54
fluxworked before08:54
fluxhaven't tried a reboot, though, but i did stop/start aliendalvik08:55
faenilflux, and the "media volume" (i.e. the one changed with volume keys) is max?08:56
fluxyes08:57
fluxalso media player plays fine08:58
fluxwell, it's not max but maybe 80%08:58
faeniltry max, android volume could be lower08:58
faeniland the curve is logarithmic iirc08:59
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fluxnope, still silent09:04
faenilmm :/09:05
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Morpog_PC__flux i had that before09:07
Morpog_PC__install an android app that can control sound volumes09:07
Morpog_PC__it's just muted09:07
Morpog_PC__the one I used was called volume control09:08
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fluxhmm, the volum2 control Ifound is a widget09:14
Morpog_PC__the one i had was an app09:14
fluxsound manager didn't help09:14
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Morpog_PC__android app store has lots of apps for it09:16
Morpog_PC__errr amazon app store09:17
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pdanekBlackphones coming in three weeks, will ship in millions, backers say.09:22
pdanekEven though Android is like magnet for malware.09:23
pdanekLooks like it may spot one of most secure OSes.09:23
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pdanekSilentCircle is behind it -> good stuff...09:23
fluxtried three android mixes, no help.. they all say it's full volume.09:28
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Morpog_PC__system volume too?09:33
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coderusflux: do you have sound at all?09:35
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fluxI do, ie. from the jolla media player09:38
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coderusflux: share your journal log09:40
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FireFlyflux: have you tried multiple android programs with sound?09:45
FireFlyjust to rule out that it could be a one-app issue09:45
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fluxangry birds, another game and two music streaming apps from the same vendor (sky.fm, di.fm)10:13
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slateinstall some volume-adjust apk and see if android side is muted10:25
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fluxslate, well, I installed three volume adjusting apps and none of them suggested it was muted10:36
fluxis this muting property so rare that none of them might have supported it?10:36
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pdanek1http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20140606/356848/10:52
stephgcool10:57
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AJAX555there we go, right channel this time11:21
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evil_corehi all11:37
evil_coredoes Jolla Phone has "Nokia Drive" app like n9 got?11:38
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cb400fnope11:42
cb400fyou can use some android offline navigation apps (personally use 'osmand~')11:42
cb400fthe jolla has a 'Here' maps app... it can calculate your route, but it needs connectivity and it can't recalculate automatically, and doesn't have voice11:43
cb400falso there's a native osm based app called modrana under development (port from n900) afaik11:44
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cb400fmaybe it'll be possible to run MS/Nokia android apps, from the upcoming low-end MS/Nokia android phones :-)11:45
sledgesrunning google maps nav with live traffic info here np11:46
* tbr ponders if the nokia drive apps have any explicity copy protection or if they "just use" hw optimizations and direct calls11:47
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evil_coren9 nav were really awesome, offline maps very usable outside own country11:49
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artemmaoffline maps need expensive licensing..11:49
artemmaor community maps11:49
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parasemichow come im the only one whos phone goes worse and worse every update? please help : (11:50
parasemiclatest patch broke my 3g connection11:50
artemmaparasemic: opu are not the only one :)11:50
artemmaI've got a cure however11:50
artemmafull reset two times made my Jolla almost fast again11:50
artemmastill a bit f freezing when many apps are running, but most ppl would probably consider it normal11:51
cb400fhow many openrepos and optional experimental patches are you guys experimenting with?11:51
parasemicwell my phone in un usable now11:51
* cb400f never haz problems (knocks on wood)11:51
parasemicthe 3g connection "lags" like shit. everything takes like 20 seconds to happen such as opening friends, loading up a web page etc11:52
parasemicmitäkuuluu started to lose connection and go to deep sleep mode similar to wifi11:52
cb400fdid you install the optional connman update?11:52
parasemicno, what's that?11:52
coderusparasemic: are you using 0.8.0?11:52
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parasemiccoderus its not about mitäkuuluu but my connection. the phone drops the whole 3g connection every fucking 15 minutes11:53
cb400fit's an update to the connection manager, which inovloves some risks... but if I understand correctly you need to actively to install it11:53
* artemma wonders why a network issue is able to influence UI fluidness at all..11:53
parasemicor more frequent11:53
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coderusparasemic: i just added ten minutes wakeup in mitakuuluu, it should recover connection if sleeped11:54
parasemiccb400f where do i find this update?11:54
cb400fI did not recommend it, I just wondered if the problems occured _after_ installing this update, which obviously they didn't11:54
parasemicalso cutespotify broke completely, as the connection became so unstable it crashed every 1 or 2 minutes11:54
parasemicwell i could try it, as im fucking hopeless. the phone is completely and utterly useless now11:55
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artemmafull reset should help. but it takes time.. and you might need to do it a coupe of times11:56
parasemicfunny thing is, i have DNA 3g connection, and DNA is jollas main partner in finland so i didnt expect connection issues11:56
cb400fI don't suppose you're located in an underground tunnel a 1000 miles from the nearest antenna or something? ;-)11:57
parasemicno, it happens everywhere at all times11:58
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parasemiceg. on my way to work with a bus, i used to listen to cutespotify whole time with zero issues, now it crashes before i can finish a singe song11:58
parasemicsingle*11:58
parasemicjust fucking great11:59
parasemicalso, opening maps destroys the phone and i have to fight 10 minutes to get them closed to have the total freeze healed11:59
parasemicor take the battery out11:59
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tbrparasemic: you might want to do a factory reset, just like suggested already.12:00
parasemicdo i need to download all updates again?12:01
tbryes12:01
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parasemiccrap.12:02
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tbrwell, IIRC it skips a few12:02
tbrno idea how the current upgrade path looks like12:02
coderusafaik its 1.0.2.5 -> 1.0.3.8 -> latest12:02
coderusmeans 1 to 1.0.2.5 first12:03
parasemicallright... well i guess i have no other options12:03
parasemicmaybe i should just stick with the earlier version tho12:03
artemmaparasemic: when/if you decide to have a backup before reset, take a notice that by default it is NOT created to sdcard and will be deleted during reset12:04
* artemma have lost all his photos this way, fortunately expeected something like this so they were backed up to pc12:04
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parasemicwell, i only have stupid drunken selfies on my phone so it's maybe better to just let go12:05
* artemma still wonders why default backup location is not the sd card though12:05
cb400fparasemic: as for the opt-in update: https://together.jolla.com/question/45026/hotfix-opt-in-hotfix-for-connectivity-in-upcoming-update-7/12:08
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cb400fbut if I understand correctly, if the problems were introduced by the official update 7, there's prolly something else wrong12:09
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parasemicwell, i'll try that anyway12:16
pdanekIf some big company wants to buy Jolla, like Amazon.12:17
pdanekWas there any interview with Jolla questioning that?12:18
pdanekAs that is usually one of the key questions for new companies.12:18
artemmaMaking a profitable phone company is very tough nowadays. Possibly Samsung and Apple are the only one getting real profits12:19
artemmaand I am not sure if platform superiority is really significant factor there12:19
cb400fI guess if some megacorp would want to buy Jolla, they would first insert some corrupt CEO to drive the value to rock bottom ;-)12:19
pdanek:D12:19
pdanekMaybe he wasn't Trojan horse.12:20
pdanekMaybe he's angel.12:20
cb400fright ;-)12:20
* artemma hasn't heard of Trojan angels before. You live you learn12:20
cb400fwonder what type of ownership there is for the Jolla company.. but I guess they started it cuz they want to create something, not to sell it off to some crackpot company that will mess it all up12:23
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pdanekcb400f: well, that's all nice and all, but --> money changes things12:24
artemmamoney is a powerful amplifier if used right. That's why many startups look for investments12:24
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cb400fat least most of the system is free software, and increasingly so12:25
pdanekSo Amazon will invest billions and leave Jolla doing their thing.12:25
pdanekGood scenario hum?12:25
cb400fjolla doesn't sell books or music :-)12:25
* artemma doubts Jolla as a company could make money with sales less than several millions a year at least. Try reaching that without going in bed with some big operator12:25
pdanekcb400f: But Amazon does. And Amazon lacks their own mobile platform.12:26
artemmaIf I was running Amazon's phone business. Why would I go for Jolla? You will need to build a lot of stuff from scratch. More that for the Amazon's current Android fork12:26
artemmaand developing sailfish further on Amazon's own.. what's the difference from developing further a current amazon's fork of android?12:27
pdanekMaybe they don't want Android.12:27
pdanekWhy Samsung is building Tizen.12:27
artemmaplus Android is proven to be at least ok for tablets (important for amazon), while for sailfish it's still a theory12:27
pdanekNot just tablets, Amazon is going into phone industry.12:28
pdanekSo many rumors out there that it's almost official that Amazon will soon release their phone.12:28
artemmaSamsung managed to use Tizen as a very clever threat to get special agreement with Google over android. Not sure if tizen will ever be big in phones after it. Smartwatches and tvs - maybe12:28
pdanekartemma: I never thougt of that!12:29
pdanekso Tizen is just negotiation project, kind of12:29
artemmawell, it became that after being delayed for over a year12:29
artemmarumors tell samsung isn't very good with sw quality12:29
cb400fI wonder how the USD 5-15 per android device that Samsung is paying to MS affects things12:29
pdanekAmazon has scheduled a "launch event" for June 18 in Seattle, where it is expected to introduce its first smartphone.12:30
pdanek4 more days and world will change12:30
pdanekAmazon 1st smartphone, running Sailfish OS!12:30
artemmaBut then it's part of samsung DNA to release phones on every platform there is, even if just one phone just in case. So they might decide to release one sailfish device too :)12:31
pdanekWait....12:32
pdanekthose patents12:32
pdanekthat M$ uses against Android to profit12:32
pdanekare they known?12:32
pdanekOr most of it is undisclosed?12:32
cb400fI don't think many details are publicly known.. though, at least Barnes & Noble took the bastards to court, so there should be some details at least from that case12:34
cb400fof course in the end they settled out of court too :-/12:34
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cb400fprolly saving them tons of money, to actually call the MS bluff12:34
pdanekMaybe Android was created by Bill Gates during 1 weekend and given to Google as a Christmas gift.12:35
pdanekAnd everything else you know is camouflage.12:35
artemmaMS lawyers eat mid-size companies for breakfast since 1980s..12:35
pdanekMaybe everything we know is lie.12:36
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pdanekMaybe we live in Matrix, created by multi-trillion company called Jolla. Earth is mostly destroyed and we, Sailors, only have a chance to ever wake up.12:39
pdanekOr... maybe I'm a fish. o.O12:39
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pdanekAlso, I thought HTC Android qwerty models were selling quite well, right?12:45
pdanekI saw them everywhere.12:45
pdanekSo why would they stop making QWERTY phones?12:45
pdanekIf they were selling well?12:45
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cb400fthat'll be good for Jolla once a good qwerty other half becomes available :-)12:47
pdanekOnce good qwerty other half becomes available, we will have Jolla 2.12:48
pdanekAnd who knows what Jolla 2 will change.12:48
pdanekMaybe no OH anymore.12:48
pdanekOr at least different size, so not compatible with Jolla OH.12:48
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ShadowJKIs anyone making "good qwerty other half"?12:54
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artemmaIMHO, Jolla carries Nokia's idea of operator-oriented customization. Then otherhalves are primarily a thing for operators to instantly customize phones without expensive whole phone build and testing12:55
artemmaand a bit for community to have fun :)12:55
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pdanek1I feel that after latest update, brightness of my display is lower. :/13:38
pdanek1Even if I max it.13:38
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ShadowJKpdanek, there was something in the notes about brightness, but i forget the details14:06
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pdanekShadowJK: ok I figured it out.14:13
pdanekThe "adjust automatically" function, was either fixed or works differently14:13
pdaneknow in automatic mode, it's a lot darker14:13
Stskeepsartemma: i don't think operator TOH customization ever has come up, heh :) but cool idea14:14
pdanekwhen I switched to manual mode, I was able to bring brightness to original levels :)14:14
ShadowJKDidn't dna have a dna-pink toh, or did I just dream that up14:15
artemmaStskeeps: I thought that's the whole original idea for OHs :)14:15
artemmabut that's only my speculations, certainly14:15
sqozzpdanek: ah, thank you.. was wondering why the max brightness on the slider equals 140 in the /sys/class/brightness file when the max possible value is 25514:15
Stskeepsartemma: and while it may not seem so, we're extremely (on ui side) driven by designers14:15
Stskeepsi think inconsistencies happen when you rush14:16
Stskeepsit's been breakneck to keep things in line while developing the full ui14:16
artemmaI know it's much easier to criticize than to create, yes14:16
pdaneksqozz: yes, seems when automatic mode is on, the maximum or lower or something14:16
artemmaespecially when you are in a startup. I am not happy about inconsistencies caused by me in our startup as well14:17
Stskeepsartemma: ah, didn't think you were criticising :)14:17
pdanekJolla isn't a startup anymore, is it?14:17
Stskeepsgood questio14:18
Stskeepsn14:18
artemmawell, it's easy to shut up criticism: just show me a UI guide that tells where to put most/leadt important elements, how to organize hierarchies etc and show that Jolla apps follow it :)14:18
DrainBamagedMine starts up ok :P14:18
artemmaso far I am not even clear if it's more the Jolla way to confirm changing settings by Accepting gesture or by going Back. Jolla apps seem to use both14:18
StskeepsA company may cease to be a startup as it passes various milestones,[2] such as becoming publicly traded in an IPO, or ceasing to exist as an independent entity via a merger or acquisition14:18
Stskeepsartemma: hmm .. sec14:19
artemmaI've seen the current UI guide online, not nearly detailed enough to my tastes :)14:19
Stskeepstrue14:19
pdanekartemma: I agree, it has confused me few times (accept vs go back)14:19
Stskeepsanother aspect is also that we don't have down to last pixel ui specifications14:19
artemmabut my main confusion point is main screens navigation actually14:20
Stskeepsartemma: ooi, what's your startup?14:20
artemma6 months after starting to use jolla I am still confused trying to swipe app launcher to the side14:20
specialartemma: part of the problem with having a UI guideline is that it's constantly evolving14:20
artemmaN9 had a single saving gesture that saves you to familiar location from anywhere, sailfish lost that14:20
speciallike everything else on the platform14:21
pdanekStskeeps: so based on the definition, Jolla is probably still startup, startup with large investments on the table14:21
tango_Stskeeps: well, I would say that a startup would cease being a startup if it becomes profitable/stops relying on venture capital/stuff like that14:21
tango_e.g. tesla motors isn't a startup anymore14:21
Stskeepstango_: ah, so kinda like growing up14:21
tango_Stskeeps: yeah, not relyingon your parents' money14:21
artemmaI formed my opinion on it lately actually: I believe Sailfish and Jolla phine are a collection of great ideas and evolving apps. It is just in a state I'd expect from a prerelease phone14:21
tango_artemma: I kind of agree14:21
artemmayou know, something you show on a conference together with starting a developer app challenge for a coming platform14:22
tango_then again, it's _obviously_ not as mature a product as android14:22
tango_artemma: no, it's beyond that14:22
tango_I would call it "a good first try"14:22
sqozznaah, for a prerelease it has way to much features and the whole system (stability and so on) works realy great14:22
artemmaIMHO Sailfish is better than the first public android. Problem is standards raised since then14:22
artemmawell, look at tizen announcement and app challenge start14:23
speciala key point, I think, is that it's improving - in public - on a monthly basis14:23
artemmaI'd dare to say they had more of both features and stability14:23
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pdanekartemma: Tizen?14:23
* tango_ hasn't given a look at tizen in A LOT14:23
artemmatizen isn't relevant after samsung's recent agreement with Google, but was relevant until then14:24
artemmathey are still releasing at least one phone14:24
artemmaanyway, I am pretty sure I'd run Jolla with much more poor results14:24
artemmadoesn't stop me from wishing more though :)14:25
tango_wait, there were ever tizen phones produced?14:26
pdanektango_: there is 1st one, pretty good one14:26
artemmathey launched first phone about a week ago. To go to sales during smthing like q3 in russia only14:26
Stskeepsthat's like in forever in productization measures..14:27
artemmanot sure why thy do it at all after the google agreement. Maybe just because it's in Samsung dna to release a phone on any platform there is14:27
pdanekartemma: question is, WHY in Russia only? Is it because of the Google vs Samsung deal?14:27
pdanekah14:27
pdanekok, you type to ofast14:27
pdanekI got my answer :)14:27
artemmaIMHO after google agreement tizen matters for devices only. Like smartwatches or tvs14:28
artemmamaybe they don't want to loose developers already invested in tizen for phones14:28
pdanekartemma: but Samsung works on Tizen LONG time, so why would they throw away their long developed OS just like that?14:28
artemmawith samsung marketing budget and this dna of releasing on any os anyway14:28
pdanekyes14:28
artemmapdanek: samsung delayed tizen heavily (like a year or two) and they did use it as a good threat when negotiating with google (me thinks)14:29
artemmaIMHO, Tizen as a threat for google negotiations paid back way better than tizen pones could14:29
artemmaphones*14:30
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artemmaStskeeps: that's my day job - http://www.thinglink.com14:30
artemmaI am not a founder, one of early employees14:30
artemmaand we work on Jolla phones too :)14:31
pdanekbrowsing half minute and I didn't get the point of web yet..... let me continue :P14:31
artemmaactually thinking about our engineering, about 70% of our engineers use Jolla as a day phone :)14:31
pdanekok got it14:32
pdanek:D14:32
artemmapdanek: we are actually rebuilding front page now for the very same reason - it should be way more clear for the first time visitors14:32
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pdanekyea, it's a bit confusing14:32
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Stskeepsartemma: ah, looks cool14:33
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artemmaStskeeps: thx14:34
pdanekartemma: 70% of engineers use Jolla, yet only iOS and Android apps available :P -> http://www.thinglink.com/app/14:35
artemmaSince I care about mobile part of our website, our iOS and Android apps and have Sailfish apps as my hobby (And starting with android app right now) I am sorta able to observe differences between Apple, Google and Jolla app developer worlds quite a lot14:35
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pdanekBut I guess that's why you're here today, Sailfish app in works14:36
artemmapdanek: you are very correct, we care about our users14:36
artemmasorry to say, but would you care to tell a reason why we'd invest into app for Sailfish? :/14:36
artemmauser base, money, marketing, Jolla sponsorship?14:37
* Stskeeps nods14:37
pdanekSure, no reason for management. I agree.14:37
Stskeepsespecially if a android app already works fine14:37
artemmaJust as Jolla we are a startup and have to run fast just to stay afloat14:37
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artemmaand then very signicant part of our user base is education and US. And especially US education. Not the primary jolla markets14:38
artemmaof our *app* user base14:38
pdanekOu, you're Finnish company!14:38
pdanekThat's why you use Jolla phones. :D14:39
pdanekIt was strange to me that 70% of engineers in some company uses Jolla phones.14:39
artemmaHeh, I'd love to concentrate on Jolla apps and maybe forma small consultancy around it, but so far it doesn't seem to be possible14:39
artemmapdanek: our CTO was one of the guys to bring NFC to Nokia :)14:40
artemmaand he had some code of his orbiting Earth as well - not quite usual for Finnish engineers :)14:40
* artemma was managing Nokia wide tool for user interface building and maintenance14:41
artemma..killed by Elop together with the whole platform14:41
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tango_artemma: write a firefox os app, it would run anywhere except for iOS 8-D14:42
tango_seriously though, has anyone tried firefox os apps on the jolla?14:42
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artemmatango_: I really love Qt and QML.. if not that, I'd go for native iOS or Android. Starting with an Android app now actually14:43
pdanekWhy didn't Nokia at least give a chance to MeeGo as side-project? (as Maemo always was in Nokia history)14:43
pdanekN9 was selling well, wasn't it?14:43
artemmalet's not start on that again :)14:44
tango_pdanek: that's the problem14:44
pdanekI understand their WP strategy, but such a company, why not to keep their MeeGo resources and have a side project that can potentially pay for itself?14:44
tango_pdanek: it was selling too well14:44
artemmaI'd say N9 wasn't fitting in the Nokia strategy back them14:44
tango_(especially considering how they crippled the market)14:44
MSameerall what's happen was meant to happen14:44
MSameerit was endorsed by the board14:44
pdanekhm14:45
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MSameerotherwise the board would have kicked elop out (IMHO)14:45
MSameerwhy did they want that? I don't know14:45
* artemma also thinks that board was doing it consciously for some strange and possibly unlawful reason14:45
pdanekhm14:46
pdanekBecause Nokia N9 was great, mature phone.14:46
Stskeepsi have a hunch which may be whatever they were doing were sane, but for now i'll keep that theory to myself14:46
Stskeeps:P14:46
Stskeepsbut is surrounded around the fact that mobile phone market is crashing, hard14:46
MSameerStskeeps: we will see in a few years14:46
* artemma looks at his Java code and wants to see Qt there14:46
pdanekStskeeps: why crashing? don't keep it for youself! we're family here :D14:47
artemmaanybody here with rumors abt Jolla paid apps start? or at least some stats about how much my apps are actually used?14:47
MSameerpdanek: until it hits headlines and journalists replace Stskeeps with jolla :p14:47
pdanek:D14:48
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pdanekStskeeps: "but is surrounded around the fact that mobile phone market is crashing, hard" -> why crashing? :O I thought it has never beem better than now14:50
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pdanekNokia Asha --> Is it just me, or the icons look like icons on Harmattan?15:01
Stskeepsit certainly has inspiration from it15:01
Stskeepsthe small ones are practically tiny non-linux n9s15:02
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Stskeepsoften been tempted to get one15:02
pdanekhehe15:02
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pdanekFor those who live in Finland: Is this "hate" against Elop only within Maemo/MeeGo/Sailfish community, or also majority of Finnish people does not accept him?15:13
ShadowJKIt also extends to other "publicly known" CEOs of large companies that have sacked people in recent memory15:15
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tango_I think "sacked people" is quite the understatement for what elop did to nokia15:18
ppat least he made msft spend 10 billion or whatnot15:19
Aardpdanek1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s01TgdNtID815:19
ShadowJKAnd the other thing is that people don't appreciate how much of the demise was caused by the previous management :-)15:19
AardShadowJK: things were pretty fucked up, but still salvagable. so he deserves some credit for properly sinking it in impressingly short time15:21
pdanek1Aard: cool video!15:21
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MSameeri can say that the project that was going to be released after harmattan was going to suffer15:26
AardMSameer: I disagree there15:26
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MSameerAard: in what sense? I heard a lot but I have not touched yet15:27
MSameerI was supposed to but it did not happen15:27
louisdkLately I have to start ssh manually by running "systemctl start sshd.service" as root after enabling dev mode. It strangely fails to start on its own.15:27
MSameerand the embedded phones project that got axed too was going to be ****** up15:27
MSameerpartially because of the management and partially because of some other people15:27
pdanek1hm15:28
AardMSameer: there was a big disconnectedness between management and what actually happened15:28
Aardwhat actually happened was not that bad15:28
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pdanek1How did it look from insider point of you, those of you who worked inside of Nokia? Did you just receive an email that your project is closed? Or you have been gradually informed of changes and negotiated?15:29
ppa friend resigned, the SAP application worked perfectly (one of the few existing ones) and had a field for reason: "Do not believe in new strategy" :-)15:34
ShadowJKpdanek1, oh another thing, while in maemo/meego/sailfish commiunity, people typically blame management, the wider public usually say that nokia engineers can't make anything that isn't incredible overcomplicated and hard to use :-)15:34
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pdanek1Nokia N9 hard to use?15:35
pdanek1I thought it's one of easiest to use smartphones ever.15:35
ShadowJKwider public does not know N9 exists15:36
pdanek1I think MeeGo was in really good position against Android. Now we have many new platforms trying to pierce the market, Nokia N9 did that couple years ago.15:36
pdanek1hm15:36
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ShadowJKAnd by that time, "hard to use" meant things like having working facebook,instagram,twitter,whatsapp,shazam clients that didn't require a PhD in OviStore to install15:38
pdanek1OviStore was fail.15:38
pdanek1I agree.15:38
pdanek1At least on Nokia N900.15:39
clau2how many n9s were sold back in the day?15:40
ShadowJKThe amusing thing is, that at one point analysts all said that nokia would be strong in app stores, because nokia had figured out payments and such. In reality it was quite a huge pain to actually pay for anything on ovi store :-)15:40
clau2I remember reading it was selling much better than the first two lumia models from nokia15:40
artemmahey, stackoverflow helped again! :)15:40
artemmasorry, wrong window15:40
MSameerpdanek1: we all heard it. The day following the famous burning platform elop threw his bomb IIRC15:40
ppBuying stuff for the n9 worked quite well15:40
MSameerAard: that is also true15:40
clau2artemma: stackoverflow always helps, that's a given15:41
MSameeranyway, what happened has happened. life goes on15:41
pdanek1No! I will actually never stop thinking where could have Nokia been now. :D15:42
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pdanek1I think they had amazing opportunity.15:42
clau2artemma: well, not always: http://xkcd.com/979/15:42
artemmaclau2: so true feeling15:43
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faenilyeah xD15:43
artemmaSomehow I tend to arrive into these xkcd situations more often when doing tricky Qt stuff :)15:43
Aardpdanek1: the only thing that'd be better compared to jolla would be having lot's of money, so you don't have to work with limited resources15:43
* artemma recalls trying to create a skype video calling device with qt/qml and x11 and skype libraries15:44
Aardother than that we're now a lot more flexible, and don't have to do crazy stuff for political reasons15:44
Aardsome bits from harmattan were due to political fights between different teams15:44
clau2darn, jolla just got cheaper. after I bought two of them. :(15:45
clau2the second jolla model I'll buy only after the third one is launched.15:46
clau2but I do hope the new price will help increase the sales.15:48
pdanek1Aard: another difference is, that you don't have any HW device selling, Nokia had15:49
pdanek1Jolla device is not selling, not in my book. It's like Google Nexus, reference device.15:49
Aardpdanek1: well, that's related to "having lots of cash". nokia still made huge money with all the cheap phones15:50
clau2well, nokia afforded some publicity too15:51
clau2I remember that in Ronania N9 was pretty well promoted15:51
Aardand I'm quite sad about the camera program. I'm nowadays mostly carrying a jolla and a pureview 808. the operating system there is shit, completely useless as a phone, but it's a great compact camera15:51
clau2Romania*15:51
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clau2are there any Jolla commercials, at least in Finland?15:52
clau2I've seen some Firefox ones recently15:53
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pdanek1Yea, it's good point. Jolla doesn't have any marketing, yet it sells a little bit.15:54
pdanek1But I guess that Jolla is really waiting to get interest of bigger HW manufacturer.15:54
pdanek1They have never intended to sell devices.15:55
clau2well, they'd atttact attention much easier with a few million devices out there :)15:55
clau2I hope they'll consider better marketing now that the OS is getting better.15:56
pdanek1I see.15:56
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clau2but I see the point in jolla hw being the reference.16:02
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artemmaIIRC old Jolla communication, Jolla actually wanted to just supply OS to HW manufacturers16:08
artemmabut I guess it's difficult to sell without a working reference device16:08
pdanek1I see.16:08
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pdanek1Btw, if you have seen recent Jolla review by phonedogs.com, the guy said that Sailfish experience feels closest to BlackBerry 10 from all platforms16:12
artemmaactually it does16:14
* artemma looks at his BB10 device on the table16:14
artemmaexcept that BB10 is more consistent, but more ugly :)16:14
artemmaand way more difficult to code for16:14
clau2and bb10 feels closest to n9 :)16:14
pdanek1artemma: ugly? I don't find it ugly, hmm...16:15
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artemmawell, I find sailfish more pretty16:15
artemmaI needed to say something why I am not using bb10 after all :)16:15
pdanek1I think BB10 achieves more productivity with their gestures.16:16
pdanek1at the current moment of course16:16
clau2I've seen a z10 and a q10 (?), both nice devices. also bb10 is quite nice. if it weren't for jolla, I would have bought a z10 probably16:16
artemmaMy BB10-based Z10 is not very fast device (you might have noticed I am performance-sensitive) + not many good apps + to me they messed up with universaliness: universal hub beeps on too many messages and Dropbox tries to sync all 10GB to poor phone storage16:17
artemmabut BB10 single saving gesture is very good. You always flick from the bottom and it gets you to the same familiar state. I wish Jolla had single saving gesture like that16:18
faenilartemma, come on, bb10 is for sure more performant than sailfish16:18
artemmafaenil: not in my experience. apps seem to start faster on Jolla than on Z1016:18
clau2I would think that bb10 being qnx it's quite fast16:19
artemmamaybe newer BB10 devices are faster16:19
faenil:/16:19
pdanek1artemma: Jolla has any apps?16:19
artemmaZ10 doesn't get frozen as often as Jolla though16:19
faenilclau2, it is...and it's a lot smoother than sailfish at the moment16:19
artemmapdanek1: I have different motivation for Jolla :)16:19
faenilI really hope Qt5.2 (and the optimizations that it enabled) will fix that :/16:20
artemmaIt's the only device where I can use my favorite Qt/QML in full and its UX is not that bad and might improve16:20
MSameeri hope i could try Z1016:20
MSameernever seen it16:20
artemmaMSameer: are you in Helsinki? I can lend Z10 for weeks to you16:20
MSameerweeks :D16:20
* artemma would have sold it if anyone's interested16:20
clau2I bought into jolla for two reasons : continuity from n9 and openness.16:20
MSameerartemma: thanks for the offer. I think I got my answer already :)16:21
pdanek1I bought Jolla hoping it will be true N900 successor to me.16:21
artemmaclau2: so far I can access way more  Android OS internals than Jolla internals :)16:21
* MSameer is still stuck with N9 :/16:21
pdanek1Jolla will be good in year or two.16:22
artemmaso for app developer (delivering to official channels), other OSes are way more open than Sailfish for now16:22
artemmaSailfish is more open in the sense that you can contact the OS developers right here though :)16:22
pdanek1artemma: why BB10 > way more difficult to code for? Cascades aren't as good?16:23
artemmaCascades are just terrible when it comes to QML. Half-done raw software16:23
artemmaand they basically created there own QML16:24
artemmahalf-created16:24
artemmayou are not able to mix pure QML and cascades qml, so you either have to paint all the buttons yourself or use half-baked Cascades QML16:24
artemmaor use pure C++16:25
pdanek1http://developer.blackberry.com/native/documentation/cascades/dev/integrating_cpp_qml/16:25
* artemma actually shipped one small QML app of his to BlackBerry world16:25
pdanek1https://sailfishos.org/community.html -> someone should update "Upcoming events" section :)16:29
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faenilcybette, ^16:34
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kimmoliyes, its alive! https://twitter.com/LiKimmo/status/477874112095080448/photo/1 -- my jolla is now "triple-core"18:15
Stskeepskimmoli: woo18:16
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Stskeepsnow let's move all the basic ui functions to stm32 ;)18:16
AlmAckvery interseting kimmoli18:16
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AlmAckkimmoli: so via I2C you blink the LED's on the board though the uC?18:18
AlmAckdo you have some sensors on your board?18:19
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kimmoliAlmAck: no, there is small code on the uC which blinks leds, i just got the stm32 flash programmed over i2c.18:23
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AlmAckah ok, interesting anyway so you can update the cover with the jolla SW18:24
kimmoliyep18:25
kimmolino need to attach external programmers when updating fw18:25
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AlmAckkimmoli: you developed a dedicated board, isn't' it? you foreseen some external HW/sensors/IO?18:28
kimmoliyep, this one is for eink (two touch buttons only)18:29
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kimmolibrb18:30
AlmAcknice to see this kind of projects :-) I would like to do something in the future18:31
attahlooking good there kimmoli!18:34
attahSo.. is 1.0.7.18 the connman hotfix?18:40
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Nicd-yes18:41
attahok, thanks :)18:41
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sledgesballock: ggabriel vgrade DrainBamaged lbt alterego : we got Hackspace \o/ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/london-hack-space/TLgo3OO-AiU19:05
Stskeepscool, good work19:05
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ballocksledges: awesome :)19:12
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attahhmm.. seems highly likely that one can send splash-sms with a jolla...19:21
special'splash-sms'?19:21
Stskeepsclass 0 or how was it?19:21
attahreading up on the details now.. but it seems to take a hand-coded pdu19:22
specialyou'd probably have to modify ofono.19:23
attahumm, if you ever texted your operator to se your prepaid balance and it magically shows up on screen.. that is splash-sms19:23
specialand if your operator is decent they'll block outgoing class 0 sms, but19:23
attahprobably..19:23
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attahturns out i'm using the wrong term :) either way, not sure if i want to try19:26
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pdanekWhy Android does implement gestures?19:32
pdanekWhat is stopping them?19:33
pdanekGoogle can just blink an eye and they have gestures.19:33
pdanekdoes -> doesn't19:33
M4rtinKresistive screen support ?19:34
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pdanekhmmmmm19:34
M4rtinKor crappy digitizers in cheap devices ?19:34
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pdanekSo maybe Google should split Android to 2?19:36
M4rtinKand maybe as the IIRC have the same GUI on phones and tablets ?19:36
pdanekcurrent version and premier version for high end devices?19:36
pdanekto move the innovation a bit?19:36
M4rtinKwell, they "won" and can slack off :)19:36
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M4rtinKWindows ME style! :)19:36
pdanekhehe19:37
pdanekI was just browsing Google Play on my Jolla 5 min. ago, that's how the question came to my mind, why.... why so uneffective when 100-people company can make it much better19:38
M4rtinKwell, you have the hundreds of millions of people using the current interface19:39
M4rtinKand you would need to teach them the getures19:39
M4rtinKand even then it would take some times until the new version propagates19:40
M4rtinKbut yeah, doable19:40
pdanekI mean. Google seems to be always the one who wants innovate19:40
pdanekEspecially how people should interact with devices.19:40
pdanekLook on their projects19:40
pdanekGlass, Tango, voice controls and all that19:41
pdanekSo why not to move forward also UI control. :)19:41
ShadowJKThey're probably looking too far ahead to see what can be done today19:42
pdanekYea, I guess they're too much visionaries.19:43
pdanekAnd "Android phone" is not in their future vision.19:43
pdanekIt's just a cash cow for now.19:43
pdanekBut I accept that. There should be radical innovation in terms of mobile hardware.19:44
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pdanekGoogle Glass is kind of good thing to make people think about our possibilities.19:45
pdanekAll those privacy issues with it can be sorted out.19:45
Nicd-NSA Glass19:45
pdanekWell, Google even made their own Chrome addon for PGP encryption in Gmail.19:46
pdanekCalled end-to-end.19:46
pdanekWhich goes against their ad targeting.19:47
M4rtinKI really don!t like how Google took the perfectly fine concept of augmented reality19:47
M4rtinKand made an implementation that (rightfully!) makes many people actively hostile against AR19:48
M4rtinKas a whole19:48
pdanekM4rtinK: Where was the concept of augmented reality 3 years ago? On paper, in labs...19:48
pdanekWhat we have now?19:48
pdanekDozens of AR glass makers.19:48
pdanekStarted by Google.19:48
pdanekBe thankful for that. :)19:48
pdanekReal AR projects out there now. :)19:48
M4rtinKpeople ready to punch someone who looks like he is wearing anything close to Google Glass :)19:48
pdanekDo you punch people who walk around you with smartphone in front of them?19:49
pdanekHow do you know they're not filming?19:49
pdanekBut people would punch them 50 years ago.19:49
pdanekIt's all about what you're used to.19:49
M4rtinKsure, but there is till a problem that even if your gear is Google free and under your control, you can still encounter people expecting the Google Glass spy-fest19:50
pdanekI'm very much privacy-aware myself, but majority of people will adapt VERY quickly.19:50
M4rtinKwell, it is a big difference where the footage ends19:50
pdanek:)19:50
pdanekI think nobody can stop this.19:50
M4rtinKactually I see smartphones as a sort of external memory19:50
pdanekPeople will be regularly wearing such glass-like products in 10+ years.19:51
pdanekAnd nobody will care.19:51
M4rtinKsure, why not19:51
pdanekExcept us maybe.19:51
pdanek:)19:51
pdanekYea, smartphones will be the brain.19:51
M4rtinKas long as they don!t share the footage they film with Google or other large data mining operation by default19:51
pdanekOther devices will be the ones you will interact with, in the future.19:51
pdanekConnected to smartphone.19:52
M4rtinKI don!t have an issue with it19:52
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pdanekOk, let's see on I/O in few days.19:53
M4rtinKBTW, the Japanese already made an animated series about how it might look like once AR is mainstream :)19:53
M4rtinKhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denn%C5%8D_Coil19:53
pdanekJapan is great in technology innovation, except that their style is usually unacceptable by rest of the world taste.19:54
Nicd-pixar also imagined that, M4rtinK: http://jacobhochhalter.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/wall-e.jpg19:55
Nicd-;)19:55
M4rtinKNicd-: thats's not AR, that's Facebook :P19:56
Nicd-well, it had augmented their reality, they didn't even know they had a pool19:57
Nicd-or that they could walk :P19:57
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M4rtinKby that definition you can also define alcohol as AR :)19:58
Nicd-well it's true19:58
ggabrielo/19:59
ggabrieland: lpt: firewall google ip addresses at home :P19:59
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fluxin the meanwhile, someone should make an app that records 24/7 and feed the data to google/nsa to do voice recognition. realtime script of your life!20:18
fluxin addition it could scan for wlan/bluetooth devices in the neighbourhood and collaboratively build a map of all people's locations.20:19
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fluxI think this is already doable and probably more scary than google glasses ;)20:20
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pdanekWatch a new movie: Her.20:26
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ShadowJKflux, google already did the scan for wlan/bt20:26
ShadowJKWith autoconnect to open wifi (or wep?) to scan the lan20:27
Stskeepspdanek: watched it20:27
fluxshadowjk, but I don't think it tries to scan for other clients20:27
fluxor?20:27
ShadowJKhm?20:28
ShadowJKtheir streetview cars did it20:28
fluxright, it was that they captured some pieces of traffic, getting client addresses in it as well20:28
fluxbut that's very much limited compared to all mobile phones doing it..20:28
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Nightmare__i thought all phones using gmaps are reporting back active wlan macs and gps location to improve fast location fix20:29
M4rtinKwell, Android phones do that at least for APs IIRC20:29
Nicd-yes, but not just gmaps20:29
fluxnightmare__, I though that was based on only active access point information20:30
fluxnot active clients in a wlan20:30
Nicd-iOS and WP do it as well20:30
M4rtinKMozilla has an Ap you can run that does that too :)20:30
M4rtinKopt-in for a change :D20:30
fluxin other words: at present google will not be able to track my phone in various networks even if I have android phones with google maps in the same network20:31
Nightmare__possibly right20:31
fluxbut if they simply dumped their ARP tables to google as well, that would be possible20:32
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fluxand even more intrusive operations would likely be possible. does wlan even encrypt mac addresses?-o20:32
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fluxmaybe in next versions ;)20:33
Nightmare__or in current version without knowing ;)20:34
fluxhmm, new jolla works nicer in my wlan, or it was pure luck that I was able to login to it just now20:37
flux(I'm on the hotfix as well if that has affected anything)20:40
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DrainBamagedcool, sledges, ty for URL20:45
pdanekStskeeps: I do believe that AI may eventually feel and love the same way as we do20:46
pdanekAs in the movie.20:46
Stskeepsyeah.. but at same time, we're trying to replace humans with something very non human..20:47
lpotterseems the hotfix either works or it doesn't work20:48
pdanekyeah, I agree20:48
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fluxfinally configured jolla to backuppc. I hope I never need to use it ;)21:01
pdanek1hehe21:02
pdanek1You have backup PC?21:02
pdanek1:O21:03
fluxI run BackupPC on my server21:03
pdanek1ah: http://backuppc.sourceforge.net/21:03
pdanek1I didn't know21:03
Nicd-backuppc is surprisingly nice21:03
fluxit's nice. it does dedupping, so moving files from directory to another, or from pc to another, doesn't cause lot of space being lost21:03
fluxand it's mostly fire-and-forget; if a PC doesn't get backed up for some reason it sends you an email21:04
pdanek1Do you guys remember Dell Streak phones? 5" phones 4 years ago.21:04
pdanek1People didn't buy it that much, it was too big for majority of people.21:04
pdanek1How come that now, 4 years afterward, suddenly 5 inch is not big at all? Did people's hands grew in size or what? :D21:04
Nicd-I remember when the best phones were the smallest. the smaller the more expensive and more advanced21:05
pdanek1We're like frogs, put frog in hot water, it jumps out. Heat the water slowly frog stays.21:06
pdanek1Give people something very different, they refuse it.21:06
pdanek1Gradually change something to the point over years.21:06
pdanek1And people accept it.21:06
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fluxfirst give five-row qwery.. then four-row.. then three-row.. then no qwerty at all :)21:07
flux(qwerty)21:07
pdanek1People are no different from frog behavior, we're just more intelligent, so water test is too transparent for us.21:07
MSameeri have always wanted a bigger screen :)21:09
Nicd-sorry pdanek1: "a frog submerged and gradually heated will jump out"21:10
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pdanek1Nicd-: ah ok21:11
fluxinternet is full of lies?-(21:11
AJAX555flux: lies!21:11
AJAX555now entering eternal loop21:12
pdanek1It's not just internet, that's a story I know from I can memeber.21:12
pdanek1It's like anecdote that everyone knows.21:12
pdanek1But it seems that tests has really proven otherwise. :)21:12
pdanek1It's like spinach contains tons of iron. :D21:13
flux"hmm, didn't seem to work. let's try it again till it does."21:13
fluxat least the rsync over ssh over openvpn seems to take some batteries :)21:15
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tigeliflux: I use this https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-snapshot21:20
fluxI was considering indeed using the snapshots for making a solid backup, like I do with my workstation21:21
fluxbut maybe some day in future..21:21
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flux..also I'm a bit wary of playing with such an old version of btrfs ;-) (though I don't know how recent it is in the presence of backported patches)21:22
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tigeliflux: there are quite a lot backported patches in :)21:24
flux"a lot" doesn't really tell a lot :-)21:26
tigeli:D21:26
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fluxmaybe "there are backported patches to bring it to approximately 3.15 level", that would actually contain information ;)21:26
tigeliflux: well, I'm not going through commits at this time ;)21:27
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ShadowJKI've noticed over the years, that it's always "I wouldn't use btrfs v current-1, it was buggy as hell, only current is ok", and it never seems to taper off :)21:35
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Aardsometimes I cry in my sleep about making the decision to go with btrfs. but then I remember the bits that would've hurt if I'd have gone with ext4, and calm down.21:44
ShadowJKlol21:44
ShadowJKWas f2fs never considered?21:45
Aardyes21:45
ShadowJKThough, the emmc on jolla seems rather swift even with btrfs, though you probably didn't know what it'd be like at the time?21:45
AardI'd need to check history, it's been a while. but iirc we had the first protos of the jolla still with ext4, and switched later21:46
ShadowJKiirc, on typical emmc, ext4 and btrfs are roughly similar in performance within a  magnitude or two, though as you move up from cheapest possible emmc, ext4 stops sucking before btrfs stops sucking21:49
ShadowJK(because of android optimizations on slightly less shitty emmc)21:49
Aardwithout btrfs the factory reset would've been a lot trickier. also the home/root volume on the same partition wouldn't have been possible21:50
ShadowJKyes21:50
Aardwe'd have had to compensate with lvm hackery, but that'd be probably more painful than btrfs21:50
ShadowJKOr recovery partition with restore image21:50
Aardtakes up more space21:51
Aardand is less flexible21:51
ShadowJKWell, sooner or later as the updates accumulate, the delta between initial image and current image will be pretty huge (hopefully!) anyways? :-)21:52
Aardthe recovery partition needs to be big enough to account for future increases in the base image size, or you're screwed, and either can't add new features to the base image, or you lose recovery functionality. just resizing the partition later is not really possible21:53
ShadowJKSeems like a good choice of emmc anyways, btrfs (and ext4) while having unexpected poweroff tolerance on harddrives, generally make themselves less resiliant on flash based storage than "dumb" approaches.. after countless random poweroffs and resets, the emmc seems to not have invoked its random number generator too much yet :-)21:55
ShadowJK.. which is rather impressive, as I guess Jolla doesn't have the automated test facilities like, for example, TomTom has, where they continously randomly disconnect the emmc during map/firmware upgrade process to see what happens :)21:57
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M4rtinKwell, I wouldn't mind a LVM & XFS combo :)22:03
AardI'll never touch xfs again22:04
ShadowJKit's been awhile, but last time I tested, XFS was rather splendid on harddrive (though ext4 has gained some of XFS' delayed allocation features which negates some of XFS' performance benefits), but brutally slow on flash (as was JFS and Reiser* too)22:04
M4rtinKwell, there have been some quite big improvements made in XFS recently22:05
ShadowJKXFS was the first with delayed allocation, and revealed all the apps with silly file handling behaviour, resulting in loss of data :-)22:05
M4rtinKnot sure if any are related to flash memory usage though22:05
AardI stopped using it on my personal systems back when it did "hey, you had that file open on unclean shutdown, so I thought you'd appreciate if I'd just replaced it with zeroes"22:06
M4rtinKmostly scalability improvements IIRC22:06
M4rtinKI think that one was fixed, but not sure22:06
AardI had to deal with it later at some job as well, we had mixed machines doing the same stuff with different filesystems. kind of 'survival of the fittest' approach to find out what is best for our needs22:08
Aardxfs was always the only filesystem losing so much data that we dropped it22:08
ShadowJKAard, btrfs and ext4 have that features too now, but apps have been fixed since then :)22:09
M4rtinKIIRC it had serious issues with sudden power failures in the past22:09
M4rtinKthat were fixed from what I have read22:09
M4rtinKwell, if it is the default FS in RHEL7, it must be good :D22:10
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ShadowJKI remember xfs once nuked a kernel mod source I was working on, I had just complied it and modprobed, and bug locked up system, on load, it was zeroed :)22:10
AardRHEL is high on the list of stuff I don't want to touch anymore as well :p22:10
M4rtinKwhy ? :)22:11
sqozzhey folks, can someone give me a hint, why i cant install any android apps? I've already installed the android app support but after start the apk-installation nothing happens22:11
sqozztried it with 3 different apk's22:11
ShadowJKext4 has mount option to "fix" certain file access patterns where the author believes a fsync is implied where it isn't, reduces the xfs "zerod file" syndrome22:11
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tigelinext one will have reiserfs :D22:48
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lpotterI'm rather keen on FAT22:54
ShadowJKfeh22:56
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nyovdoes the jolla phone have a JTAG header?23:37
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pdanekWhy Android apps in landscape mode have portrait mode minimize/close gestures?23:49
pdanekQuite confusing, when some other apps in landscape mode, have landscape gestures.23:50
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