#jollamobile log for Monday, 2014-07-07

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mcfriskdid something in latest updates break mms, or change/reset the settings? mms receiving worked several weeks back but now i see just downloading circle, persist after reboot too.05:11
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krnlynghi, if i reboot my jolla it doesn't ask for a pin code, it only asks for the pin code if i try to call someone, is there a fix for that?06:27
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krnlyngalso if i reboot my jolla all shortcuts (swipe to close and the lockscreen pulley menu entries) are gone (probably other settings too, idk) is there a fix for that?06:29
krnlyngStskeeps: do you know what could be causing this?06:31
Nicd-krnlyng: do you have dev mode on?06:32
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krnlyngNicd-: yes06:32
Nicd-try in the terminal 'devel-su btrfs fi show'06:33
chriadamkrnlyng: difference between lock code (device lock) and puk (pin) code, guess06:33
chriadamI guess*06:33
Nicd-chriadam: pin code should be asked on every reboot06:34
Nicd-right after lock code06:34
chriadamoh06:34
Nicd-because there is no mobile connectivity until the sim has been unlocked06:35
krnlyngNicd-: http://pastebin.com/BjHsKH6G06:35
Nicd-your filesystem is full06:36
Nicd-krnlyng: read this: https://together.jolla.com/question/30822/root-and-home-disks-full-and-causing-various-problems/06:37
krnlyngNicd-: weird because df -h shows it is not full06:37
Nicd-it's not full because you filled it with stuff, it's full because btrfs allocated all the space (this is not shown in df or other tools)06:37
Nicd-the fs being full leads to all kind of strange stuff06:38
Nicd-sad that this is still happening06:40
stephgit's a btrfs thing that may or may not go away06:41
* stephg today I will mostly be wearing my black TOH06:41
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Yanielwell my fs is far from full06:47
Yanieland I still don't get asked for the pin06:47
YanielI have to go to settings -> cellular network -> enable sim06:47
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krnlyngi just saw that df and mount report that mmcblkp28 is both mounted as / and /home which seems weird because if i do ls i see different content in / and /home why is that :O?07:04
Stskeepsbtrfs07:04
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Nicd-krnlyng: it's explained in the tjc post I linked07:06
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krnlyngit only says, that mmcblk0p28 contains the / swap and /home mountpoints but not more, i assume that this is a btrfs feature?07:10
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krnlyngNicd-: i've run balance on /home but the problems still exist :'(07:24
krnlyngon /home and on /07:24
Nicd-what about fi show?07:24
Nicd-what does it say now?07:25
krnlyngNicd-: http://pastebin.com/hMSTauEV07:25
krnlyngshould be fine?07:25
Nicd-yep07:25
Nicd-could try rebooting07:25
krnlyngdid that, twice07:26
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Nicd-then it's something else I guess07:27
Nicd-in addition to the fs fullness07:28
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krnlyngNicd-: are there any log files to look at? or how could i debug this?07:43
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HtheBwhat a bummer....07:51
HtheBthank you Jolla "repair" center...07:51
HtheBJolla care asked me to send my phone for repair procedure. And the only thing they did, is add a couchen to the battery and cleaning the pins.... I won't call that a repair...07:53
Stskeepsyou'd be surprised - that is a probable repair procedure07:54
HtheBIf they just told me that I can just put a piece of paper, i wont be losing my phone for a week...07:55
Stskeepsa piece of paper is not a repair :P07:55
HtheBor they could simply snailmail a sticky couchen for the battery....07:55
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HtheB1) it's a lot cheaper  - 2) a lot faster - 3) the user wont have to send in his device07:56
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narchieso I'm thinking I should just hang in tight even if I have reboot issues still :S08:00
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HtheB:(08:04
Stskeepsnarchie: if you have reboot issues, contact care, simple as that08:05
dr_gogeta86good morning peeps08:06
Stskeepsif you don't try to fix it you don't get to complain; and we all want to keep our complanining rights ;)08:06
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ppHtheB: they might want to know that their fix is valid etc.08:12
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HtheBpp: I hope so. I will keep monitoring it08:13
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tadzikhm, what do Poor Maps have than the stock maps don't?09:06
tadzikI've seen people praising it, but it doesn't seem to do anything more than the regular maps do09:06
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messertingHi, does anyone have a guide on how to create a "link to web page as app", ie. a .desktop file or something?11:35
SK_workmesserting: why do you want that ? :)11:36
messertingSK_work: Because there are several web pages that are much better than "apps"11:37
messertingFor example a link to an animated weather radar11:37
SK_workmesserting: one sec11:37
messertingUsed it a lot on my N911:37
SK_workmesserting: http://www.mail-archive.com/devel@lists.sailfishos.org/msg04486.html11:37
SK_worksee "* Add shortcuts to webpages in the launcher area"11:38
SK_workso wait for next release ?11:38
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messertingSK_work: Thanks, I guess I can wait...11:38
tadzikthe update will probably just give you an easy way to do it, but you should be able to do that anyway11:39
tadzikjust craft a .desktop file that runs 'sailfish-browser 2048tile.co' or whatever11:39
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coderushttp://paste.kde.org/p6ykvpfhv <- link to page in launcher11:46
coderusyou can use base64 icon or set to file11:47
Oni^tadzik: just change type of .desktop file to link11:48
coderusOni^: exactly :)11:48
tadzikmesserting: ^ forwarding to you :)11:48
ppheh, just in time for an update, random poweroff  (pwr_on_by_HW_SMPL) :P11:49
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Oni^and add url-field like URL=http://online-go.com11:51
tadzikthose surprise poweroffs are quite worrying11:52
tadzikreminds me of the usb problem on the N90011:52
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ruskiehmmm think this might be the reason why xmpp gtalk account doesn't work... oauth it seems needed to auth it12:08
ruskieafter I added a google account it signed me into the other account as well12:09
ruskienow I removed it the google account remains there greyed out12:09
ryukafalzI don't think you should need oauth for gtalk o.o12:09
ryukafalzit's straight XMPP unless they've changed something12:09
ruskiethen no clue why plain xmpp gtalk never connects12:09
ruskiealso what I'm still trying to figure out is this: https://together.jolla.com/question/43177/how-to-use-google-calendar-without-contacs-sync/12:10
ruskiebecause I don't get the same screen tadzik gets12:10
tadzikyeah, that's odd12:10
* ryukafalz sadly doesn't have a Jolla so he can't test12:11
ryukafalzeyeing some nexus 4s on ebay though >.>12:11
tadzikI'm pretty sure gtalk can work as a regular xmpp12:11
tadziknot that it's very good at it :o12:11
ryukafalzit can, I've done it many times12:11
ryukafalzthough google is being... finicky about it12:11
ruskiehttp://imgur.com/Nf8Y7MX <-- if I go off of this... I don't have contacts or contact events everything under syncdetails though is the same12:11
ruskiewell seems like the gtalk xmpp now works so atleast that's sorted... not that I'll be using it much(just in case I'm not at office and need to recevie the icinga notifications)12:12
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* ryukafalz wishes telepathy-gabble supported stream management :(12:13
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ryukafalzupstream things, blah12:13
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ruskiestill find it odd that after I remove the google account the gtalk bit still receieves messages12:15
ruskieeven seen the greyed out account in the presence details12:15
ruskiestill better than before when it was invisible totaly12:15
tadzikbtw, I made the media tracker bail out again by copying Music from phone storage to SDcard and then deleting the former12:15
tadzikI admit, I was doing this over SSH because MTP sucks, but now there's no way to listen to my music until I manually bump the tracker in the terminal12:16
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ruskiehaven't bothered trying music on it yet12:17
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ggabrieltadzik: happened the same to me, but not hte last time12:17
ggabrielthe only different thing i did was changing permissions12:18
ggabrielbut it seems to be erratic12:18
ruskiewhat I would like to do is find a way to deny all access to android runtime to any data/connections/etc...12:18
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* ggabriel really tempted to provide a solution to the android problem12:21
ruskieuntil I figure that one out I simply don't have android support installed hehe12:22
ruskieand frankly am more happy with native apps anyway12:22
tadzikI wish there was a geocaching app12:22
ruskiejust thinkngi might be nice to run some of those humble bundle android apps on it someitems12:23
tadzikIf no one starts developing one I'll start one after vacation12:23
Nicd-tadzik: c:geo works pretty nicely I've found12:23
ryukafalzgeocaching app would be awesome :O12:23
ggabriellike modrana?12:24
ruskiehmm there's no dbul-launch that one could prepend to commands to get them access to dbus? and no run-standalone.sh that I can find so far as well12:24
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Nicd-modrana is not a geocaching app12:24
* ggabriel wonders what a geocaching application is12:24
ruskiegrab info about caches from geocaching.com12:25
ruskieand prob some extra navigation added12:25
Nicd-and log them12:25
tadzikNicd-: yeah, but I meant a native app :)12:25
ppagtl just needs a port ;)12:25
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tadzikagtl is not very good though :(12:25
tadziklast time I used it it constantly crashed on premium caches12:26
tadzik"downloading 79/80... ooh, a python exception, I'll not show you any"12:26
tadzikso I needed to narrow a map until I find a range where there are no premium caches12:26
pppretty unmaintained nowadays yea :(12:26
tadzikhuh, modrana doesn't smoothly zoom in and out? I thought it did that on n900 in modrana-qml :|12:28
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Nicd-that was life with the N90012:29
Nicd-had to manually patch the python code from time to time12:29
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Nicd-wow, that was some lag12:30
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Nicd-seems I was not the only one12:30
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ryukafalzwhoa, that... doesn't look like it was a netsplit though?12:51
Stskeepsprobably just bad connectivity12:51
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* ryukafalz nods12:52
M4rtinKtadzik: patches welcome :)12:52
ryukafalzdidn't even notice it since I have joinquit filtered out, heh12:52
M4rtinKBTW, I am not agains adding geocaching suppirt to modRana12:53
M4rtinKor tools related to geocaching12:53
M4rtinKit is just that my "plate" is already full with other feature requests12:54
M4rtinKlike offline routing, tracklogs, overlays, etc. :)12:54
ryukafalzoh dang modRana looks nice12:54
M4rtinKryukafalz: thanks!12:55
ryukafalzM4rtinK: Does it have a generic non-Silica UI too? The screenshots page has a header for that but no screenshots :P12:55
M4rtinKBTW, for historical perspective - the QtQuick map widget (PinchMap) modRana uses comes originally from AGTL :)12:56
M4rtinKryukafalz: it does12:56
M4rtinKactually the GUI can use different backends12:57
M4rtinKcurrently Silica and QtQuick Controls12:57
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M4rtinKryukafalz: it looks like this http://modrana.org/images/qt5_gui/13:00
M4rtinKryukafalz: with Controls, same code13:00
M4rtinKit is handy during development  as I can run moRana directly and not on the device13:01
ryukafalzyeah13:02
ryukafalzalso on non-sailfish devices ;)13:02
M4rtinKshould also run on other platforms such as BB10 and Android13:02
M4rtinKyep :)13:02
ryukafalzand Nemo :D13:02
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ryukafalzlooking at this, it's based on Rana which... hmm, I actually have a Neo XD13:04
* ryukafalz doesn't think GPS would be very nice on that tiny display though13:05
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M4rtinKme too :)13:05
M4rtinKeasn't that bad13:05
M4rtinK*wasnt13:05
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ryukafalzah, it looks like it's got a pretty well-designed UI actually13:06
ryukafalzunlike some with tiny controls :P13:06
ryukafalz(keyboard, I'm looking at you)13:06
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M4rtinKmodRana actually still supports Neo13:06
M4rtinKwith the GTK gui13:06
ryukafalz:O huh13:06
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M4rtinKpeople still report using it there from time to time13:07
M4rtinKbut it is getting motr seldom :)13:08
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M4rtinK*more13:08
ryukafalzwell there are much much fancier devices on the market now haha13:08
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ryukafalzbut it's cool that it's still compatible that far back :)13:09
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M4rtinKyeah :)13:09
tadzikM4rtinK: yeah, but wasn't that feature already there?13:09
tadzikin modrana-qml that is13:10
M4rtinKgeocaching ?13:10
SK_workhttps://together.jolla.com/question/49643/the-voice-of-jolla-community/13:10
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tadzikM4rtinK: no, the "fluent" zooming, I can't remember the word for it13:12
tadziknot even in Polish :o13:12
M4rtinKnope, Im sure it never was there13:12
ryukafalzlike a pinch to zoom type thing?13:12
M4rtinKthe code is jus not there :)13:12
M4rtinKpinch to zoom is supported13:12
M4rtinKbut zoom is still a direct switch13:13
tadzikdiscrete! That was the word13:13
M4rtinKso as you pinch, it switches directly from on zoom level to another13:13
tadzikso continuous zoom is the thing I was missing13:14
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M4rtinKI'll have to check13:15
M4rtinKit might be possible to hack it in somehow :)13:15
tadzikwould be awesome :)13:15
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SK_workM4rtinK: zoom the image13:18
M4rtinKbut no promises, the way how it works is already pretty crazy13:19
SK_workand when the zoom is finished compute which zoom factor is the best13:19
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M4rtinKzooming ap and down from a layer should be fine13:21
M4rtinKbut switching to the next one could be tricky13:21
M4rtinKwith a smooth transition13:23
M4rtinKbecause currently it does not actually create and destroy some transient tile elements as you move the map13:24
M4rtinKbut there is a fixed tile matrix covering the screen13:25
M4rtinKand the elements change their identity as you move the screen, zoom, etc13:26
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M4rtinKso if you zoom continuously, you scale the elements13:28
M4rtinKbut then when you reach the threshold of switching to the next layer13:28
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M4rtinKI'm not really sure how well it would work :)13:29
M4rtinKbut we will see :)13:29
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M4rtinKin any case, feature request noted (and patches welcome!) :)13:36
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tadzikso it's like bump-mapping, or whatsitsname13:43
tadzikI think the way google maps do that is they zoom the existing layer until you stop zooming for a moment, and then they switch to the new tile13:43
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M4rtinKtadzik: yeah, that might work13:48
tadziksounds like fun to implement it, actually :P13:48
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M4rtinKhh13:48
tadzikso if you can wait 2 weeks and then be ready to listen to me hating python, count me in :P13:49
M4rtinKhh13:49
BysmyyrI like to see some program which can download areas for offline use?13:49
M4rtinKtadzik: ok, counting on you :)13:49
tadzikeverybody wants that except map providers :|13:49
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tadzikI think they even outright forbid it13:50
M4rtinKBTW, modRana supports batch tile download13:50
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M4rtinKthere is just no QML GUI for it yet13:50
Bysmyyr:P13:50
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M4rtinKwell, I see this as user responsibility13:51
M4rtinKmodRana is a tool and it is their choise how to use it13:52
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M4rtinK*choice13:52
tadzikgood attitude13:52
Bysmyyrbut not usefull to everyone13:52
Bysmyyrmaybe for me but definetely not to my father or girlfriend13:53
ggabrielsomebody can always make it13:54
ggabrielM4rtinK is almost too nice as modrana king when it comes to patches/troubleshooting/etc ;)13:55
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M4rtinKggabriel: thanks! :)13:55
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parasemichi13:59
parasemicso i got my phone back from repair and the connection issues are still very much present...13:59
Stskeepswhat kind of connection issues?14:00
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parasemicthe 3G connection keeps dropping consistently14:07
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tadzikargh. TIL: Silence Sounds won't silence android apps14:10
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Nicd-tadzik: silence sounds in what way?14:12
tadzikNicd-: from the pulley menu on the lock screen14:13
Nicd-that's for notifications14:13
tadziknow I know that it means the ringing sounds, but the crossed out note fooled me :)14:13
Nicd-it won't silence jolla apps either14:14
Nicd-sailfish apps*14:14
tadzikI see14:14
Nicd-you have to slide your volume down to nothing for that14:14
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parasemicthat's really stupid14:23
parasemicexcept for maybe audio playback features, if played14:23
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Nicd-well I think it has good and bad sides14:28
Nicd-it's good that I can watch a youtube video but still keep my phone from ringing without having to switch back and forth14:28
Nicd-but of course then it's more work to completely silence the phone14:28
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giucaminstall alsamixer and mute the channel ;)14:29
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FireFlyI'd expect "silence sounds" to mean "stay quiet at all costs"14:38
FireFlylike a hardware mute, more or less14:38
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fluxthat's not actually what many expect. for example many expect alarm clock to work in silenced mode. to facilitate turning the phone to silence mode during nights..14:40
tadzikalsamixer? I suppose sailfish uses pulseaudio and all that14:41
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tadzikoh, I just put the phone in airplane mode for the night :)14:41
tadziksaves battery too14:41
fluxwell, can you automatically take it out from it?-) I have the silencer app.14:42
fluxalso I'm not particularly worrying about battery consumption, I charge the phone during the nights..14:43
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FireFlyflux: well, I keep my ringtone volume at 0 at all times, since I either keep my phone in my pocket or at the desk next to me anyway14:53
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FireFlySo in that light it makes sense to use "silence sounds" in a cinema or exam context...14:54
fluxhow about vibration?14:54
FireFlyYeah, I keep vibration on14:54
fluxso I like to disable vibration during nights14:54
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* ryukafalz keeps his phone on silent due to using a smartwatch15:37
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AL13N_jollacant reach store... normal?16:07
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AL13N_jollahmm looks like its back16:08
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stephgAL13N_jolla: probably prep for the update16:13
* stephg runs16:13
AL13N_jollahahaha...16:13
AL13N_jollagtg eat.16:13
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lainwir3dstephg: haha, as soon as he said that I clicked on "Check for updates" on my Jolla :P16:14
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TemeVoh, there is flappy bird port for sailfish :D16:29
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coderusport, sure17:24
coderusthere is also port of here maps called sailfish maps :D17:24
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pdanekWhat happened me today.18:25
intehello I also ran into the btrfs-full-issue18:26
pdanekAfter unlocking Jolla, 1st screen was OK (upper), 2nd sceen too (middle) but when I switched to 3rd screen with icons --> no icons were visible, only the background.18:26
intethe balance commend returns in error because the filesystem is too full18:27
inte.cache is ca. 400mb18:27
pdanekLocking / unlocking device didn't help.18:27
pdanekGoing into settings app and back didn't help.18:27
pdanekI had to shutdown + start.18:27
inteincluding roughly 210mb from store-tracker18:27
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inteis it save to remove the entire .cache directory?18:27
inteshould be rebuild automatically, right?18:27
intehopefully balance will work after removal18:28
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pdanekStskeeps: Did you have the same issue?18:32
giucampdanek: journalctl may contain some log from lipstick about it18:33
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Sail0ra cooperation with pebble instead of younited or angry birds would be cool ;)18:38
specialmail pebble and suggest it18:39
Sail0ralready asked ^^18:39
Nicd-inte: did you read the whole btrfs thread?18:43
intethread_18:43
intethread?18:43
Nicd-in together.jolla.com18:43
inteno only read the version at tjc18:43
inteah18:43
Nicd-just removing files may not help18:44
intewell yes I think so18:44
intei thought i could run the balance thing afterward18:44
intei thought i could run the balance thing afterwards18:44
Nicd-did you try the "emptying a file" suggestions?18:44
inteor should I rather echo NULL into big files to do that18:45
inteno not yet18:45
inteok i will18:45
inteso i should rather empty every large file in .cache?18:45
intethan deleting it18:45
inte?18:45
inteI will try that with tracker-db since this file is 250mb or sth.18:46
Nicd-don't just try on some files willy nilly18:46
Nicd-or at least make a backup to your SD card if you have one :P18:47
intecurrently backing up .cache through ssh18:48
inte:)18:48
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intethought i would start with .cach as it would hopefully be rebuild and eventually nothing gets lost anyway18:49
pdanekgiucam: how to show journalctl entries before reboot?18:50
pdanek-- Logs begin at Mon 2014-07-07 20:40:58 CEST, end at Mon 2014-07-07 20:49:28 CEST. -- --> that's because of reboot18:50
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giucampdanek: not sure, check journalctl help18:51
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inteNicd-: shouldnt freeing ~210MB be enough to savely run the balance thing or did I missunderstand the entire problem?18:52
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pdanekgiucam: ok tried, but seems that log is cleaned upon reboot18:53
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Nicd-inte: destroying files doesn't necessarily result in freed btrfs space18:57
inteinte: according to tjc emptying files is only recomended if its not possible to remove them18:57
Nicd-then follow their directions :)18:58
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intei will19:02
intestill my initial question: is it save to remove .cache?19:03
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pdanekWhat do you think about Richard Stallman? Do you consider him as serious person, or more of a hippie idealist?19:10
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cb400fboth, you think being a serious person is contradictory to being a hippie idealist? ;-)19:11
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RzRsomeone who debugged gcc using emacs  (you can mix the words) should deserve respect19:12
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RzR “It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.”19:13
RzRpdanek, why a such question ?19:13
tilldoes the jolla already support VoLTE?19:13
RzRhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_%28telecommunication%2919:14
RzRhumm19:14
inteDidn't Stallmann recently suggest Apple should make an Android phone?19:14
inteCan't follow him in this point...19:14
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RzRinte, did he ? I thought he hate all phones (jp1 inc)19:15
pdanekRzR: I respect Stallman, I just used words how he's often called on internet, I'm just curious about Jolla guys opinion of Mr. Stallman, no other reason really.19:15
intetill: is there any network that already implemented that?19:15
pdanekTo be honest.... I loved his talks 10 years ago.19:15
tilli think mine (o2 germany) has19:15
pdanekNowadays, he seems a bit extreme.19:15
inteand is there a final standard for VoLTE at all?19:15
RzRpdanek, dont expect him to support any phone manufacturer that ship closed bits19:15
pdanek= he won't support Jolla as well19:15
RzRyea19:16
RzRor even openmoko19:16
RzRwell i cant speak for him19:16
pdanekthe only acceptable "modern" phone for Richard may be Neo900?19:16
RzRunsure19:16
RzRhttp://mobile.slashdot.org/story/11/03/15/0432226/Richard-Stallman-Cell-Phones-Are-Stalins-Dream19:17
pdanekAt the same time, I totally respect that, it is just something that lowers his respect as "leader", because he is very subjective.19:17
RzRfuture will tell19:17
RzRor past19:18
RzRif you look at the prism revelations19:18
pdanekI follow them very well and I do care, but not to such extent as some people.19:19
pdanekI need golden middle between security and productivity.19:19
RzRwho said you cant have both : security and privacy ?19:20
pdanekGoing full security is maybe idealist, but insane to communicate online productively.19:20
pdanekidealistic*19:20
RzRno privacy does not fell me more secure ...19:20
RzRwell it does depend of the context isnt it ?19:20
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pdanekTBH, I was just watching another interview with Richard and I thought I can ask.19:21
RzRif your life depends on pricacy, security  .. or productivity ?19:21
pdanekI'm very well privacy aware person.19:21
pdanekBut some stuff seems extreme to me.19:21
tillmy operator supports VoLTE since last winter: http://www.theunwired.net/?item=breakthrough-telefonica-o2-germany-launches-the-fastest-lte-radio-cell-in-germany-as-well-as-volte&663619:21
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RzRpdanek, maybe the situation is also extreme19:22
RzRpdanek, ie prism19:22
RzRetc19:22
pdanekYou're right.19:22
pdanekThe balance of privary, security and productivity is different for everyone.19:22
pdanekBut, why should you only and exclusively trust to open-source technologies?19:24
intetill: oh you are right19:24
intei dont know19:24
RzRpdanek, because evil hides :)19:25
inteno LTE with eplus yet... :(19:25
tillokay they say it was only for internal testing and not yet released for public use19:25
pdanekDo we need to be so paranoid, that anything that is proprietary, even trusted companies, should be distrusted?19:25
intetill it is: http://blog.telefonica.de/2014/01/jetzt-endlich-moeglich-volte-handover-im-o2-live-netz/19:25
tillbut they seem to have mastered the handover19:25
specialpdanek: well, even well-intentioned companies can be compromised19:25
specialsee e.g. lavabit19:25
pdanekYes.19:26
specialyou need transparency for "trust, but verify"19:26
RzRpdanek, could not be or not ... just like russian roulette19:26
pdanekThe same way, you can be compromised.19:26
intetill oh no its not.19:26
till"some months..." :)19:26
kimmolihmm.. the tohd config_data acts strangely.19:26
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intetill "live netz" obviously refers to the actual network but only to beta testers19:27
inteand as i said as far as i know the standard is not yet finalized by gsma as well19:27
pdanekSorry, internet issues.19:28
pdanekThey get your laptop, you don't tell then encryption passphrase, you go to jail.19:28
RzRpdanek, nsa ?19:28
tillat least csfb seems to work, but always uses 2g instead of 3g19:28
pdanekRzR: tbh, I connect to neighbour's wifi at the moment (WEP key)19:28
RzRpdanek, this is an other issue ... if they get19:28
pdanekand I didn't manage to get access to their router and it breaks sometimes19:28
pdanekbut I do it fair way and don't download too much, if... then in the night19:29
pdanekdue to my temporary living stay, I didn't get my own net19:29
RzRpdanek, we on the state where "they' can read it remotely ... on the cloud service you use19:29
pdanekwell, sure19:30
RzRpdanek, anyway to my eyes to biggest issue is not the watchers .. but the pple who dont even understand the concept of privacy19:30
pdanekstill, I think trusting only ourselves is going backwards19:30
RzRpdanek, and its politic consequencies ...19:30
intehttp://xkcd.com/538/19:31
pdanekif you think about it.... and take it to extreme, we should only grow our vegetables, because you can't trust anyone to put poison in it etc.19:31
RzRyes it would make sense19:31
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intepdanek: well but to be on the more-or-less secure site its wise to use an email provider who is NOT located in the US19:32
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RzRdo you really believe that some pple would put a pesticide inside a veg ?19:32
RzRoh well...19:32
tadzikthe nsa must've got him19:32
intelol19:32
RzR:)19:32
inte:)19:32
intethe xkcd stip is actually about security, if you didn't get it :)19:33
pdanekThe same way, we can develop mechanisms that regular cloud services will be audited by other governances and they won't have "back-doors".19:33
pdanekSame way as vegetables are regulated.,19:33
pdanekHaving everything hosted by ourselves is not the only solution.19:34
RzRlike gmo ?19:34
specialidle thought: architect a cloud services company so that data from each jurisdiction *and* all people with the ability or authority to access that data is located in another jurisdiction19:34
intepdanek no but to choose a secure provider for our email is well in our capabilities19:34
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RzRbtw do you use alt to email/smtp for communication ?19:35
pdanekNowadays, cloud providers are not regulated.19:36
pdanekVegetables are.19:36
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RzRone point19:36
RzRbut regulated by who19:36
RzRand for what ?19:36
RzRor who ?19:36
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pdanekYou have government hygienic agencies which check/audit grocery products.19:37
intebut not in the us19:37
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pdanekAh.19:37
specialpdanek: the US has agencies that check and audit software security, too. The problem is that they're the same agencies that compromise it for intelligence purposes.19:37
RzRand who are working in those agencies ?19:38
intespecial: or this way:)19:38
specialseriously: the NSA's mission is both to secure software and to compromise software19:38
pdanekspecial: I agree, that's indeed problem19:38
pdanekspecial: so going full self-privacy is maybe solution for now, but not the desired state19:38
RzRpdanek,  could they be related to other activities ... like agro industries ?19:38
specialpdanek: I like that people are thinking about security and privacy now.19:39
RzRnow?19:39
RzRyou mean 5mins ago ?19:39
intesure, e.g. to secure Linux against backdoors implemented by the chinese/russian/whoever but on the other implement backdoors *they* would hopfully not find :)19:39
specialI mean since the NSA and so forth became mainstream news19:39
pdanekRzR: he means last 2 years19:39
pdanekI guess19:39
RzRcould this mean nobody cares ?19:40
tadzikpeople are not going to give up their conveniences for the sake of security. Not most of the people anyway19:40
specialeveryone has their personal threat model and tolerance. I like that people are thinking about it more now.19:40
tadzikof course nobody cares. People who finance the NSA are not doing anything about it19:40
intei think there is indeed an increased awareness of security now19:40
specialI'm fine with people who sacrifice security for convenience, but they should be at least aware when they're making that choice19:40
intemany people changed to threema after facebook took over whatsapp e.g.19:40
pdanekI see people from IT to care more than they did before.19:41
pdanekI see regular people to not care anyway.19:41
specialpeople from IT are terrorists and extremists19:41
special(see also: linuxjournal)19:41
pdanekThat's why I do think, that governments should do some steps -> maybe not US government, I don't know how it works there.19:41
pdanekBut in Europe, privacy-concerned political parties are getting more and more members each year.19:41
pdanekI mean more and more votes.19:42
intei would also think if we had the nsa story unvealed in 2009/2010 Nokia would have sold much better and would probably never had switched to WP19:42
tadzikyeah, right19:42
tadzikbecause so many people ditched android and ios after all this19:42
pdanekinte: I do not think it was the reason for Nokia.19:42
slateremember that there's also people who use whatsapp etc for sheit that does not matter if it goes to wrong hands, I keep my business away from it.19:43
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intetadzik: now there is no alternative left anz more19:43
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tadzikoh, I can think of a few19:43
pdanekslate: people discuss business critical things over very poorly encrypted GSM, nobody gives a shit about privacy :(19:44
tadziklike, you know, the reason we're on this channel19:44
specialI hear there's this new one from finland19:44
tadzikor firefox OS19:44
specialforget the name, though19:44
intein 2009/2010 symbian was still very common.  At that time it was rather the question of changing to Android or rather not19:44
slatepdanek: yea, or email.19:44
pdanekBusiness email is usually encrypted.19:44
pdanekPhone is worse.19:44
slatenot in every end.19:45
pdanekTrue.19:45
intetadzik: you can hardly get a Jolla outside from finland19:45
tadzikum, no?19:45
inteplus hardly anybody knows about it19:45
intetadzik: you can order it online.19:45
tadzikI ordered mine from eastern europe, it arrived within 2 days19:45
specialmore countries and more people every day.19:45
intetadzik: most people buy their phones with their contracts19:45
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tadzikmost people, yes19:45
pdanektadzik: where are you from?19:46
tadzikbut that doesn't mean that there is on alternative19:46
tadzikpdanek: Poland19:46
intepdanek: i never send a single business email which was encrypted19:46
RzR<inte> i would also think if we had the nsa story unvealed in 2009/2010 Nokia would have sold much better and would probably never had switched to WP19:47
RzRwould you trust more them ?19:47
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specialinte: I've received a "to access this email, view it in our secure encrypted web portal with the password [plaintext password here]" :p19:47
tadzikdamn! NSA has him again19:47
RzRand why ?19:47
pdanek1tadzik: :D19:47
tadzik:)19:47
pdanek1What messages did you get?19:47
pdanek1I got disconnected.19:47
specialalso "we've uploaded all of your important business documents to a secure web portal ... the password is 'password1'"19:48
specialtrue story :|19:48
RzRat least there was one19:48
pdanek1I think the reason why people call Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland eastern Europe is because of communist history. But geographically, it's center, half east half west. Odd....19:48
pdanek1I'm Slovak myself, working in Poland.19:48
pdanek1Like I come from western Slovakia, so if you cut it to 2 halves, I'm from western Europe, yet everyone will recognize me as eastern European.19:49
tadzikeverything east of berlin wall is considered eastern europe, I don't see a reason to fight it now19:49
RzRpdanek1, remember, when you go to far enough on east you'll be on west19:49
pdanek1tadzik: yea good point19:50
pdanek1tadzik: so it's not about geography19:50
tadzikit sounds like it is :)19:50
tadzik<obligatory east-west xkcd>19:51
pdanek1:D19:51
pdanek1let me see19:51
RzRhttps://xkcd.com/503/19:51
tadzikhttps://xkcd.com/503/19:51
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tadzikRzR: answer honestly now: did you use google or duckduckgo? :D19:51
RzRi used scroogle19:52
tadzikoh hm19:52
pdanek1HA, I found it sooner than a link!19:52
RzRand now i use both19:52
pdanek1Google wins.19:52
RzRmost of my work infra is on g19:52
RzRpoor me19:52
tadzikmine poo19:52
tadzikerm, too19:52
RzRhome i use imap.google.com19:52
RzRbut this is far too much19:53
tadzik(yes, it's close on my keyboard)19:53
RzRyea google wins19:53
RzRand why should I trust more duckduckgo ?19:53
pdanek1I tried duckduckgo many times but it has always failed my productivity minimum.19:53
pdanek1:D19:53
RzRscroogle was fine19:54
pdanek1So I have to trust the giant and use my common sense to keep important things away from it.19:54
pdanek1But I won't throw away my phone and hide in the hole.19:54
pdanek1:)19:54
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intepdanek1: I use pgp for all my email19:55
RzRsounds like the most reasonable thing to be done :)19:55
inteand my provider supports dane and all that recent encryption stuff19:56
RzRinte, my mom cant read email that use gpg signature attached in mime19:56
intestill useable19:56
interzr set up her computer19:56
pdanek1inte: https://code.google.com/p/end-to-end/19:56
RzRon phone19:56
inteits not that i send all my mail encrypted19:56
pdanek1inte: chrome extension released by Google itself --> no targeted ad with it19:57
intebut all incoming mail is automatically encrypted with my public key which is stored at my provider19:57
RzRinte, caring of your pricacy by your behaviour is not enough , never assume that19:57
intepdanek1: i dont use chrome :)19:57
pdanek1Me neither.19:57
pdanek1Just saying.19:57
pdanek1:D19:57
interzr yes i know19:57
intethats the reason why i actually HAVE a facebook account (even though i barely use it)19:58
intehowever, i have roughly 700 friends and at least the same number of likes :)19:58
RzRinte, dane? http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-osterweil-dane-ipsec-0019:58
intei'm just adding everyone and i like eveything :)19:58
intecant be safer than not having it at all :)19:59
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intemy understanding of privacy ;)19:59
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RzRinte, do you display facebook likes on the web ?19:59
RzRif yes then you're also screwed19:59
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interzr?20:00
intefacebook likes?20:00
RzRcookies20:00
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RzRyes that damn small icon20:00
inteah no i have those cookies disabled20:00
RzRhttp://techland.time.com/2011/09/26/facebook-cookies-work-even-if-youre-logged-out-for-your-own-good/20:01
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RzRand browser fingerprint ?:)20:01
intebut for dane, yes, thats what im talking about20:01
interzr browser fingerprinting is evil20:01
inteeven though i use privoxy most of the time20:01
inteim not sure if that is enough20:02
RzRand it could be counter productive20:02
interzr what? privoxy?20:03
RzRanyway to not drift further20:03
RzRdo you trust jolla or snapdragons ?20:03
intei have no choice20:03
intei could of course get a neo90020:03
intebut i cant check the code myself as well20:03
RzRyou could have a yoghurt glass and a wire20:04
inteso, yes20:04
RzRpot20:04
pdanek1Jolla isn't doing anything special for privacy, excent they aren't opening doors to NSA.20:04
pdanek1That's it.20:04
RzRhow can this be proven ?20:04
special[yet?] :>20:04
pdanek1snapdragon? like HW-backdoor?20:04
intei just trust european companies more in general20:04
RzRi dont20:04
pdanek1Depends on country.20:04
interussia is currently setting up their own arm architecture20:04
pdanek1Europe differs a lot.20:04
RzRyes20:05
RzRi am not saying all are evil20:05
specialRzR: I think I'm the only person in the company subject to US national security letters. Assume whatever you will :p20:05
RzRbut there is no reason to assume there are better ones than others20:05
intei only wonder if the do that to implement their own backdoors or to make sure there are no us-backdoors :)20:05
RzRand even if jolla is doing lot of efforts to care about their customers privacy20:05
pdanek1Like the question I got in Malaysia a while ago: What language is spoke in Europe?20:06
pdanek1:D20:06
pdanek1spoken*20:06
RzRthere still could be the possibilty that their infrastructure is compromised by design20:06
inte:)20:06
pdanek1Europe is such tiny continent that it's often considered as one entity, although it will never be.... even if United States of Europe will ever be reality.20:07
intepdanek1: true20:07
intei would still consider foss as more secure than blobs if its well monitored20:09
intehowever, the openssl disaster has proven this is not always the case20:09
inteopenssl seems bogus by design and should be replaced by libressl when its ready20:09
intei somehow trust the openbsd people in terms of security20:10
RzRuntil next flaw20:10
inteRzR: has there ever been an openbsd/openssh security flaw20:11
pdanek1OpenBSD is cool and all, yet Cisco does use QNX for their switches instead, yet it's proprietary.20:11
intei mean, a serious one20:11
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intesome companies are using openbsd on their hardware20:11
inteand pf is really cool to administer20:12
intei really disklike iptables20:12
intedislike20:12
pdanek1Once I was interviewed to FreeBSD admin in small company.... I have to say it was hardest interview in my life. 4 hours work in front of server fixing issues, like half-day shift. :D20:13
pdanek1Although I didn't go for the job.20:13
inte:)20:13
intedont know freebsd yet20:13
pdanek1Me neither.20:13
intebut probably, as in openbsd, most is done manually20:14
intei like it in openbsd, though20:14
pdanek1I really like AIX system.20:14
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intelike when you did a default, basic install you only have like 4 or 5 processes running20:14
pdanek1Even though it's fully proprietary OS, it just works, way better than Linux servers.20:14
inteand you actually KNOW what each process does :)20:14
intepdanek1: dont know AIX either :)20:15
pdanek1inte: ahh, that's something you can't encounter in neither RHEL or AIX :D20:15
inte:)20:15
pdanek1inte: But on the other hand, do you need to have such simplicity?20:16
intepdanek1: sometimes simplicity equals security20:17
inteespecially if you dont have a full time admin to take care20:17
inteor you want to run it on your homeserver20:17
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pdanek1But as the business requirements grow, everything gets more complex and to maintain self-control over everything, you need significant staffing resources --> instead, you can put you trust to other company, like HP, IBM, Red Hat, Cisco... where you do not care what each process does, you trust the company.20:18
pdanek1That's how market works.20:18
intepdanek1: sure20:18
pdanek1you trust --> tour trust20:18
pdanek1your*, fuck20:18
intebut didnt iran also pay siemens to get software for their centrifuges20:19
inte(last word was a guess :))20:19
tevebig network vendor products just sucks if one is talking about security.20:19
intethe hardware that got destroyed  by israel through infiltrating the siemens software20:20
inteits also possible to license e.g. suse or redhat (or sth. other foss) to get the same guarantees20:21
pdanek1From my perspective, vast majority of security causes are from poor configuration and poor technical experience.20:21
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pdanek1Regarding big network vendors, I agree, but it's about assurances from large corporations, service level agreements and stuff.20:22
pdanek1To have absolute security -> go full FOSS and build it from scratch.20:23
intepdanek1: but you could get those for FOSS as well20:23
pdanek1But the bigger company you have, the less likely you can maintain above scenario.20:23
intepdanek1: so how would building buggy openssl increase security?20:23
intepdanek1: sorry for flooding, but I disagree with that as well - if your company has a reasonable size, you could easily set up your personal lfs-distro and share the binaries internally20:24
inteyou compile it once, and then share it to every machine20:25
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pdanekinte: ah yes, you're right, that's what Google does, kind of LFS distro20:25
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pdanekhard to argue, I do not think FOSS is currently the best option on the market, but often it can be advantegous20:26
intebut only if the code is actually reviewed20:27
pdanekI think if you're an IT corporation like Google, you can afford to have your own LFS distro and security policies20:27
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pdanekBut if you just need IT, like financial institutions, but it's not your core business, you rather go for large vendor as assurance.20:28
intepdanek: it probably really depends also on the company20:28
intesome companies still swear on windows20:29
intejust because they always used it20:29
inteother are even switching to freebsd \20:29
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intebecause of ZFS and Solaris is dead20:29
intedepends on the use case and the mood of the decision makers20:30
inteits probably possible to infiltrate almost any software20:30
intemore important is to recoginze intrusions asap20:31
pdanekWindows is another story, but many companies have used HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, True64, mainframes or even Oracle database over open source database solutions. They're not necessarily bad software (although OracleDB is... DB2 hands down :D) but many people disregard them because of being proprietary.20:32
pdanekIt's all about architecture design, developers, quality assurance etc.20:33
teveIt's always slow despite of OS if there are big companies involved.20:34
pdanekLinux can't be used as an example of FOSS project anymore, it's run by corporations.20:34
pdanekBy run I mean developed.20:35
inteisnt most of FOSS being developed by big companies?20:35
inteor some of their employees beeing allowed to develop foss like 1 day a week?20:36
pdanekMaybe not most.20:37
pdanekBut it is indeed.20:37
tevelet say: CGL linux vendor releases patch after it's own long QA perioid , then you may depend another vendor QA and after that one can apply patches to different product versions and do internal QA's for all of them. Then you need to inform customers and deliver sw updates.20:37
pdanekThat is in case that the another vendor uses FOSS software from CGL Linux vendor.20:38
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pdanekLike if Linux fixes something in kernel, surely Oracle Linux will fix it later. Unless Oracle is the company that fixes it 1st and contributes.20:40
pdanekMany vendors take from FOSS but don't give back.20:40
pdanekAnyway.20:41
pdanekI've got to go for a movie.20:41
pdanekI should receive chat contributor award.20:41
pdanek:D20:42
pdanekOr chat troll?!20:42
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inte:)20:44
inteneed to do a phone call20:45
inteenjoy your movie20:45
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ruskielove that I was able to move my fcron config over from the n900 almost 1:120:46
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ruskiejust replaced run-standalone.sh with the dbus socket export(which I assume in systemd land path won't change between reboots)20:46
FireFlyfcron?20:46
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ruskieso now have timed profile switching20:47
FireFlyoh, a cron implementation.. makes sense20:47
ruskieone that sleeps until it has work to do20:47
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ruskieunlike most others that wake up every minute to see there is anything to do20:48
FireFlyah20:48
FireFlyin other words, a lot more phone-friendly20:48
ruskiethough that might more be distros stuffing stuff into /etc/cron. dirs20:48
ruskieyeah20:48
ruskieit also handles reboots and stuff20:48
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ruskiejust glad that a one line modificaton to the profile script was really all that was needed20:49
ruskiethe script I was using on the n900 to do it that is20:49
ruskienow time for sleep20:50
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pdanek1I do think that some level of proprietary code is totally acceptable. not everything can run on Red Hat -like business model.21:08
pdanek1= I approve proprietary nature of Jolla21:08
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pdanek1RzR: http://youtu.be/SUJtMlEwd6Q?t=12m2s21:16
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RzRdo you think this is too extremist ?21:23
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pdanekRzR: he has point, but he is idealist21:33
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RzRhttp://fr.proxfree.com/permalink.php?url=yx%2BhnYCyg4s24iThgBXg7eD%2BgixM%2BhdmOP7qE3TZgUNi8d7La8boG%2BQzqrYC81sENgHUzCWq7ekNPGOnmuLLK5VCb9GPT5ExD4dOkREpkMCmGRyjDyj7llAnn1nKHqv%2F&bit=121:34
pdanekSo, kind of yes, I do think.21:34
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pdanek:D21:34
pdanek+1 for link21:34
RzR:)21:34
RzRthe irony is watching this on google bandwidth21:36
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RzRusing ...21:36
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AL13Nlink is gone now21:42
pdanekRzR: http://youtu.be/SUJtMlEwd6Q?t=16m18s --> "I think freedom is important than innovation"21:42
pdanekWith such attitude, Jolla wouldn't exist.21:42
RzRdepends21:42
RzRwithout this attitude we will all use and hail phone21:43
RzRor whatever21:43
RzRanyway freedom matters more than fancy toys21:43
RzRfor me at least21:43
RzRand remember if we're able to talk about this21:44
pdanekPeople were stealing, steal and will steal.21:44
RzRit's becuase of freedom isnt it ?21:44
pdanekYou're right.21:44
AL13Ndepends21:44
pdanekI just think that 100% FOSS isn't the holy grail.21:44
AL13Nbut i do want to get rid of facebook21:44
RzRstart blacklisting it :)21:44
pdanekProprietary is fine just as FOSS is fine.21:45
AL13Ni first need to clean up my own page21:45
pdanekI have never used it. :)21:45
AL13Ni had google+ thing too21:45
AL13N*hate21:45
RzR# grep facebook /etc/hosts | head -n 321:45
RzR127.0.0.1 www.facebook.com21:45
RzR127.0.0.1 facebook.com21:45
RzR127.0.0.1 login.facebook.com21:45
RzRthe problem i dont understand w/ g+21:45
AL13Nit's like, you could share picture using picasa before21:46
RzRis that lot of hackers are using it for self promotion21:46
AL13Nand now you need a g+ account to fix it21:46
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RzRor other goals21:46
pdanekhackers?21:46
RzRyes floss users etc21:46
RzRdevelopers too21:46
RzRthose i carry21:46
AL13Ni don't have g+21:46
AL13Ni'm a dev21:47
RzRlinus has21:47
AL13Ni don't want to be linus, nor do i want to see his face21:47
RzR:)21:47
RzRbut he's not alone21:47
AL13Nirc is much better for connecting with pple21:47
RzRdefinitly21:47
pdanekG+ was always a bit more tech savvy indeed.21:47
RzRsee we didnt met on fb or g+ :P21:47
AL13Nso what if he's not alone... i have no need to see any faces, false of otherwise21:47
pdanekBut yea, direct communication like we have here, is more personal than social network wall21:48
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RzRanyway I dont see anything to object on RMS vid21:48
AL13Nand it sucks that we had pictures on google picasa of our kids, where suddenly my grandparents are required to have g+ to access the pictures21:48
RzRmaybe except when he said encrypt on your computer is safe(r?) ?21:48
pdanekRzR: That's why I'm here, I tried to see other people21:49
RzRAL13N, you did accept the TOS ...21:49
AL13Nmy wife did that, so i donno21:49
pdanekother people's opinion about the vid and RMS *21:49
AL13Ni have no G+ so i can't see the pics :-)21:49
RzRyou should have chosen a better wife then :)21:49
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AL13NRzR: and you're talking about idealism???21:50
pdanekIRC > wife21:50
RzR:)21:50
RzRidealism is not a problem21:50
RzRanyway I generally dont like words finishing in -ism21:50
AL13Ni consider it idealistic if you're choosing your wife on the bases of free software21:50
RzRlol21:51
pdanek:D21:51
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AL13Nchoosing a wife == choosing the lesser evil21:51
AL13N:-)21:51
RzRthat's what she also said :)21:51
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AL13Nshe didn't say such things? why would you say that?21:51
AL13Nyou don't even know her21:52
RzRjoking like if she picked you as the lesser evil too21:52
AL13Noic21:52
AL13Nprobably21:52
AL13Ni should make my statement politically correct21:52
AL13Nchoosing a partner == choosing the lesser evil21:52
AL13Nbetter?21:52
RzR=or just21:52
RzRchoosing = comprimising21:52
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RzRwell this conversation is going nowhere21:53
AL13Ncomprimising is choosing what you're ok with21:53
AL13Nlol :-)21:53
AL13Nyeah, let's go do sleep21:53
RzR:)21:53
RzRsocial inertia21:53
RzRinteresting concept21:54
AL13Nheh21:54
pdaneknight!21:54
RzRAL13N, cant you retrieve your picassa picts ?21:56
RzRAL13N, thought it was possible21:56
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neosisaniis there other half with keyboard?23:04
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