#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2014-11-30

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RavenholmDXHey dudes03:41
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coderushttps://together.jolla.com/question/67535/accept-device-recover-in-different-country-than-was-bought/07:55
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Stskeepsugh, that's a complex topic.. especially when sometimes the sold price of a device (in general) is lower as the distributor takes on the duty of warranty repairs for it07:56
Stskeepsso a local distributor may not want to take anything in that it hasn't gotten paid for07:57
Stskeepsthat's just my view of how consumer markets work, not necessarily how jolla works07:57
Morpog_PCwell, it shouldn't be like that in the beginning :D07:57
Stskeepsbut that's usually the issue07:57
Stskeepsthere are times i wish i had also studied more business school related topics to fully comprehend that side of things07:58
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coderusmy first point is simple: peoples are traveling. and if something happened with Jolla Phone in other country you can't repair it for warranty in this country, you need to wait until you return to home, and then send it to repair.08:03
coderusit's not a real issue (yet?) somebody experiencing.08:04
sharpneliStskeeps: How about inside EU? Cannot that be defined as being a limitation for the free flow of goods and people?08:04
Morpog_PCisn't inside the EU already finland the only repair center?08:05
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Stskeepssharpneli: shouldn't be a problem within EU; but as an example, DNA wouldn't take jolla.com repairs08:06
Stskeepsso it's about distributors i think08:06
Stskeepsyour warranty is with the company that sold you it, isn't it? (i'm not remotely an expert on consumer laws)08:07
Morpog_PCthats 2 pairs08:07
Morpog_PCat least in germany08:07
sharpneliYeah it is. In order to avoid the situation when the seller just says "Contact the manufacturer, we don't care"08:08
r0kk3rzcoderus: i just fixed mine in a pub whilst travelling08:10
Morpog_PCwe have Garantie (warranty), which is provided voluntarily by the company (usually 1 to 5 years), and we have the "gewährleistung" which is 2 years by law08:10
r0kk3rzbut it is unfortunate to have any device need fixing whilst on holiday, but usual protocol should apply I would suspect08:10
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r0kk3rzsend phone via post to care08:10
Stskeepssome companies have worldwide warranty as a perk/quality of their product08:11
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Stskeepswhich makes people pay more for it08:11
Morpog_PClike Nokia08:11
Morpog_PCback in the days08:11
r0kk3rzi got offered that with my new laptop08:11
r0kk3rzbut i couldnt be bothered paying for it, despite the fact that I do a lot of travelling as of late08:12
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r0kk3rzI dont see any reason for Jolla to deny warranty claims for specific countries though, dont they mostly all get serviced in finland anyway?08:14
r0kk3rzi guess they might have a local supplier in india and hk08:15
Stskeepssince warranty is built into the price it also explains how some handsets drop to so low price, since they practically don't do any warranty..08:15
Morpog_PCyep08:15
tbrr0kk3rz: there are also other aspects of legal liability. If you accept a warranty repair from the US, does that mean that you acknowledge the US as a market and now are open to be sued for patent infringements there?08:15
Morpog_PClets forget the US :D08:16
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r0kk3rzi figured it must be some legal bullshit like that tbr08:16
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tbryou can replace the US with other countries, same difference08:16
tbryou can replace patent infringement with other legal issues, same difference08:16
Morpog_PCjust no insane patent systems08:16
r0kk3rzcertification issues, sales contract law of that specific country08:17
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tbrin the end it's less than satisfactory for the customer as it's not intuitively understood. While for the manufacturer and distribution channels it's a legal and calculatory mess.08:17
tbrpeople very often think: if product X fails the manufacturer should fix it. In many jurisdictions that's not the case, by default it's the seller of the item who is your legal point of contact. (let's not go into the tangential topics of manufacturer voluntary warranty etc)08:18
r0kk3rzsounds like there should be some international treaty stating that issues regarding the purchase of products are bound to the country that initiated the contract08:19
r0kk3rzno matter where you are08:19
sharpneliRemember south american warranty laws!08:19
sharpneliToshiba sold a laptop with text that it has warranty in south america and caribbean islands08:20
sharpneliAnd then refused warranty because it was printed there "by mistake" :D08:20
sharpneliAnd that's legal in Brazil at the very least08:20
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Stskeepstbr: and let's add the obligations of the GPL on top of that..08:22
tbryeah, that's "fun"08:23
sharpneliWhat's the issue with GPL?08:23
tbrwith GPL it's also always the seller that's responsible for compliance08:23
sharpneliYes. But it doesn't mean the seller must send you the sources personally or maintain webpage personally08:24
tbrwhich can lead to very exasperated lawyers with ISPs if you ask them for the GPL compliance of the router they just "sold" you with your internet connection08:24
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tbrfrantic pointing at some chinese manufacturer usually ensues08:24
sharpneliYes. And as long as that chinese manufacturer has the sources available it's all good.08:25
tbrsharpneli: technically it does08:25
tbrit's all good if you agree to get it that way08:25
tbryou _can_ insist on the seller providing it to you08:25
tbrit's their legal obligation and there is no excuse08:25
sharpnelitbr: You can insist on them sending a dvd to you or similar with the sources08:26
sharpneliBut it doesn't matter if it's the seller or you guys08:26
tbrcorrect08:26
sharpneliI don't think it would stand in court "This letter with dvd was sent from wrong address!"08:26
tbrhow the seller does it is their problem, but it's THEIR obligation to arrange it08:26
sharpneliSure08:26
sharpneliAnd for easy compliance Jolla just has to guarantee to the sellers that "We'll provide the sources, just inform us the addresses of the persons who demand them"08:27
tbrwhat will stand in court is: "seller refused to give me sources, pointed to manufacturer, manufacturer is in china and doesn't want to talk to me"08:27
sharpneliSure08:27
tbralthough the last bit is PURELY optional08:27
tbrthere is no legal obligation for me to honor the "talk to the manufacturer" statement08:27
sharpneliYap. But that just means the seller has to talk to the manufacturer on your behalf08:28
tbrno they have to talk on their own behalf, it's _their_ legal responsibility.08:28
r0kk3rzit should be a manufacturer responsibillity, theres a lot of work there for all resellers to verify various licence compliance with all products they sell08:28
r0kk3rzlawyers wet dream i think08:28
tbrr0kk3rz: there are very good reasons for it being that way08:29
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tbre.g. the manufacturer might have gone out of business. this does NOT absolve the seller from the obligation.08:30
r0kk3rzyeah thats true08:30
tbrin the end open source licenses are just another instance of software licensing and compliance08:31
tbrthey are a bit specific as they have requirements pertaining to the source code, but in the bigger picture it's just "compliance"08:31
tbrand that's what any distributor should have an IPR department for08:31
tbrif the company is good, then they will just have a legal folder for every product they ever sold and it will e.g. contain EULA and other stuff and in case of products that use OSS it will contain the necessary files.08:34
tbrso technically I find it amusing that I'm pretty much the only one who persistently and for every release requests the sailfish GPL et al. drops.08:36
tbrI'd expect distributors to ask for at the very least the drop corresponding to each factory image that was used for shipments they received08:36
r0kk3rzhaha08:36
tbrI'm rather sure they didn't08:37
r0kk3rzi suspect some lazy paging algorithm is going on there08:37
tbralso the fact that I host those is mere kindness. technically everyone is entitled to ask jolla or their distributor. (I'm not sure if the legal obligation transfers to jolla if the device installs an OTA upgrade)08:38
Stskeepstbr: online distribution counts08:38
Stskeepsafaik08:38
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Stskeepsif people were to be really pedantic, we'd be left with nobody being able to distribute gpl software, there'll always be situations like 'can't find sources matching that binary i built'08:39
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r0kk3rzi guess its not really easy to verify that the sources given truly are the complete sources for the blob08:41
tbrStskeeps: well... we've all been there, but I'd rather recommend to avoid that situation like the plague.08:41
tbrpeople did actually get into legal trouble over such things08:41
tbrr0kk3rz: matching file hashes help a lot (yes doesn't work in all cases)08:41
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r0kk3rzhttp://mobile.slashdot.org/story/14/11/30/006233/a-rift-in-oneplus-cyanogen-relationship << quick, get them on sailfish!08:43
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jonwilAt least Jolla does the best they possibly can to comply with their obligations (in the form of actually publishing the code anytime they publish new binaries)09:04
jonwilNot like other companies that release binaries and dont release the source code for months if at all09:05
jonwilwith questions about whether the source is complete or matching09:05
jonwilIts not like complying with the licenses for the few source-release-required Android packages (kernel etc) is that hard for a big company like HTC or Motorola...09:06
Stskeeps(after tbr beats us with a stick)09:07
tbrhehe09:08
tbrjonwil: want to have fun? try to get sources for RockChip or MediaTek based devices09:09
jonwildoes http://www.xda-developers.com/android/mediatek-android-one-source/ not count? :)09:10
Stskeepsnot for all the thousand other mediatek devices out ther09:10
Stskeepse:P09:10
jonwilSeems like (from that link) that its the OEMs at fault and not Mediatek as such09:11
Stskeepsthe usual answer is that oems misunderstand the nda's given from mediatek09:11
Stskeepsunderstanding open source is something that is .. a bit in shortage in china09:11
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jonwilYeah it seems like chinese OEMs are the worst when it comes to GPL violations09:12
r0kk3rzthats because nobody will sue them, because they have the protection of the PRC government most likely09:12
Nc_Stskeeps, call me biased, but understanding Open Source is in a bit of a shortage in the western world too :(09:14
Stskeepsthat's probably true too09:15
r0kk3rzthat and theres a bit of a lack of a watchdog with teeth09:16
Nc_and I honestly think the Chinese just don't care - is not that they are protected by the PRC, they just have a systemic look on things, where IP and IP theft is not even considered half the time09:16
r0kk3rzan organisation that will go the whole 9 yards for OSS licences09:16
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jonwilIf I was someone involved in this, I would be pressuring retailers who sell products that violate GPL (including and especially any phone carriers who do it). If a retailer sells a device containing a copy of the latest Batman movie without permission, you can bet Warner Brothers will pull out the legal big guns to get the retailer to pull the produce from shelves. If we had people in the...09:18
jonwil...OSS community going after retailers, the retailers might then do more to pressure the OEMs.09:18
jonwilThat said, I believe the kernel community in particular doesn't want to be too legally agressive lest it lead to a wholesale shift to a non-GPL kernel09:18
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jonwilAnd I can see where they might be comming from. I remember at least one big company (Sony maybe) calling for a non-GPL replacement for busybox due to the agressive GPL enforcement of the busybox team.09:21
r0kk3rzyeah but there are more permissive licences available if thats the teams choice09:23
Stskeepsbtw, this may be of interest to some of you: http://www.amazon.com/Platform-Embedded-Security-Technology-Revealed-ebook/dp/B00K6N4JU8/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=8-1&qid=141733932209:23
r0kk3rzunless they are bound to the gpl for other reasons, like they pull from other gpl projects09:23
Stskeeps(0$ on kindle)09:24
r0kk3rzStskeeps: if only I had a swindle09:24
Stskeepsi gave up and went for convienience on this one09:25
r0kk3rzwonder if you can download it via a kindle app09:25
Stskeepsyou can09:25
Stskeepsi don't have a kindle. just apps09:25
Stskeepsi gave up and went for convienience on this particular matter. i got so tired of moving books around09:25
Stskeeps:P09:25
Nc_Kindle App for Jolla Tablet? :p09:25
jonwilwell I do know kernel developers (Linux at least) have said they dont like GPLv3 for some reason09:25
StskeepsNc_: i dearly hope so.. at least android support09:26
sharpneliGPLv3 requires the user to be able to actually replace the software on the device09:26
sharpneliWhich can be hard on devices with just ROM09:26
Stskeepsbtw, as a heads up, i'm hoping to post a blog post where we try to get a conversation going on bootloader/security/etc on tablet.. hope many of you will participate so we end up with a great solution09:27
Stskeepsi want to be able to forget my tablet in a bar, but still be able to hack it with my own OS stuff.. :P09:27
Nc_easy enough: Step 1, buy your own bar ...09:28
Stskeepsamsterdam bar in helsinki would be high on that list, at least..09:28
Nc_"amsterdam bar in helsinki" ?09:29
Stskeepsyeah..09:29
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Stskeepsit sounds confusing but makes a lot of sense when you see where jolla office is..09:29
Nc_ah09:29
r0kk3rzoh its over that side of hel09:30
r0kk3rzfair enough09:30
kimmoliyes, they will just bring that back to jolla office to you09:30
Nc_and yes - I'm thinking Amsterdam is cool and all, but not sure that coolness transfers ... legally ...09:30
sharpneliAmsterdam bar <309:30
r0kk3rzsounds like its on the list next time im in hel09:31
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* Nc_ really ought to get around to visiting Helsinki09:31
r0kk3rzNc_: and finland in general, its a cool place09:32
Nc_you misspelled "cold" ;)09:32
r0kk3rzmake sure you get outside of helsinki though09:32
kimmoli:)09:32
r0kk3rzits not always cold, was 30c+ every day when i was there in may09:32
Nc_I think we're supposed to visit Muumiland at some point - does that count as "outside of Helsinki"?09:33
kimmoliyes09:34
r0kk3rzmoominland, isnt that outside tampere?09:34
tbrthere is a museum in tampere09:35
tbrthe amusement park is near turku in naantali IIRC09:35
r0kk3rzah turku, the other place I went09:35
Nc_:)09:35
tbraka a** of finland ;)09:35
Nc_But yeah - next time I'm in Tallinn, will see if I can find time+time to go to Finland with the family09:35
r0kk3rzi didnt go, because us auswegians seem to have missed the whole moomin family thing09:35
r0kk3rzi had never heard of it before entering finland09:36
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r0kk3rzive heard good things about tallinn09:37
Nc_Definitely worth a visit09:38
Nc_Though, if you come via the Finland ferry, don't follow the crowds, or all you'll see is the alcohol-section at Rocca Al Mare, before heading back to Finland (... ahem)09:39
r0kk3rzoh right09:39
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r0kk3rzits definitely on my list09:39
Nc_go to Vanalinn, find the restaurant called Olde Hansa, order the Divine Leg of Pork (eisbein) and a jug of honeyed beer :)09:40
r0kk3rzdivine leg of pork09:41
r0kk3rzsounds like a german pork knuckle09:41
r0kk3rzbut im sure its not09:41
Nc_yes, it is pretty much the same, but served differently09:42
kimmolimmm eisbein09:43
r0kk3rzpork knuckle is pretty good09:46
r0kk3rzone of the pubs in tasmania used to cook them around oktoberfest time09:46
r0kk3rzand it became something of a yearly tradition with my group of friends09:47
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lainwir3dhi10:02
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stephgello also10:05
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jonwilI wish there were places in my neck of the woods doing awesome or different food :(10:32
jonwilBut I always seem to end up at the same places like KFC10:33
jonwilor Krispy Kreme donuts10:33
jonwilor Subway10:33
jonwilGoing to Scandinavia is on my bucket list though, so many cool things come from that part of the world :)10:35
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r0kk3rzjonwil: its quite refreshing from an australian perspective10:38
r0kk3rzalthough I have yet to go to real scandinavia eg sweden/norway/denmark10:39
jonwilIf only there was a way the Scandinavians could send some of their some of their weather to where I am, its too hot/humid here in Brisbane :(10:40
jonwilI can almost feel my arm sticking to my desk...10:41
Nc_jonwil, meanwhile, there has been an ongoing campaign here in Belgium to get even just 1 KFC to open :)10:41
raa700~0 celcius for the last few weeks, mist and rain combined with 10 hours of daylight10:41
jonwilrain would be great10:42
jonwiland I can handle 0 celcius, that's what jackets and jumpers are for10:42
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jonwilThis heat and humidity wouldn't be so bad except that the only cooling option I have in my rental apartment is a pedestal fan10:43
jonwilno ceiling fans or air-conditioers10:44
r0kk3rzive seen rain in brisvegas10:45
r0kk3rzquite a lot of it infact10:45
jonwilyep we do get it10:45
r0kk3rzbut yeah, humidity is the worst10:45
r0kk3rz30c+ and crisp air is where its at10:45
jonwillike what happened the other day when some of our train stations looked more like canals than railway lines10:45
r0kk3rzalthough remember to bring the sunscreen10:45
jonwilI spent most of my life in Perth where the temps can reach 45 or more10:46
r0kk3rzbut the finnish sun isnt as brutal as the tasmanian sun10:46
jonwilbut its always dry heat, never humidity10:46
jonwilhence why Queensland is such a shock to me10:46
r0kk3rzi nearly died in singapore10:47
r0kk3rzand i was only there for 2 days10:47
jonwilThat said, on those really bad days I can either go to some location with air conditioning (shops, library, whatever)10:47
r0kk3rzwith near ubiquitous aircon10:47
jonwilor I can go to see my family and take advantage of their nice swimming pool :)10:47
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locusfAre there any implications on using Jolla without accepting the user agreement and installing a free software operating system on it?15:30
Yanielyour problem if you brick it15:31
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r0kk3rzlocusf: maybe warranty issues, but otherwise no15:36
locusfhttp://fsfe.org/freesoftware/legal/flashingdevices.en.html15:42
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TemeVlocusf: if you break the hw with faulty sw you can keep the both pieces15:43
locusfTemeV: true :)15:44
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locusfhttp://pastie.org/9752263 <- non-conclusive licenses of Jolla packages from 1.1.0.3917:17
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TemeV[D17:18
TemeVoops17:18
TemeVlocusf: http://monster.tspre.org/~carsten/oss-vs-nonoss.png17:18
tbrthat's interesting, now it would be the next to compare to Stskeeps list17:18
tbryes that one17:18
locusftbr: do you wan't me to do a negation of that?17:19
locusfeg. the more permissively licensed packages17:19
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tbrlocusf: yes, that would also be interesting17:21
tbrlocusf: because then one could compare that to the GPL dump17:21
locusfhrhm I tried a negation on grep but it still printed the Propietaries and TBD licenses17:22
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locusftbr: http://pastie.org/975228417:24
locusfremember this is non-conclusive, the package license doesn't tell about the separate files license or the availability of the package to the general public17:25
locusfmy Nemo installation Proprietaries: http://pastie.org/975228417:26
locusferh this one:17:26
Venemo_jis there a way to check the core temperature of the jolla?17:26
locusfhttp://pastie.org/975225917:26
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tbrlocusf: yeah silica most famously having permissively licensed QML but "TBD" on the rest17:31
locusftbr: interestingly some of the core applications also have TBD17:33
tbryeah, I wouldn't get my hopes up, as the bottom line is, even if it says "TBD" that MUST be read as "proprietary"17:34
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locusfyes17:34
tbrwhich reminds me, what's the agenda for the tuesday meeting? I didn't see anything good yet17:35
* tbr goes to create a TJC item and mail the list17:35
r0kk3rztbr isnt it just a big FOSS rant meeting?17:35
tbrr0kk3rz: I'm going to make bloody sure it doesn't get out of hand, even if that means acting against my own position in the discussion17:38
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tbrI do think there is still a lot to be said on both sides and more understanding can be gained (also from the things that Jolla won't say)17:39
r0kk3rzwould certainly be more productive if there is a clear schedule of sorts17:39
Venemo_jtbr: what meeting?17:39
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tbrVenemo_j: see minutes of last tuesday's meeting17:39
r0kk3rzalso helps Jolla prepare statements for specific topics17:39
tbrr0kk3rz: hence me taking to TJC now17:40
Venemo_jtbr: sorry, could you gimme a link?17:40
tbrhttp://merproject.org/meetings/mer-meeting/2014/mer-meeting.2014-11-25-15.00.html17:41
Venemo_jthanks17:42
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Venemo_jtbr: so is it at 15:00 utc?17:45
r0kk3rzVenemo_j: best to read the full log, particularly at the end17:45
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Venemo_jr0kk3rz: oh, is it actually interesting?17:45
r0kk3rzi found it interesting17:45
r0kk3rzparticularly stskeeps prepared statement of sorts, broadly states jollas position on open sourcing things17:46
tbryes that's recommended reading17:49
tbralso the later discussion17:49
Venemo_jmmhm17:49
Venemo_jbut my question is, is the next one also on tuesday 15 utc?17:50
locusfhmm where is the17:52
locusflibhybris-sbj-libhardware <- source code17:52
locusfits listed as Apache 2.017:52
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locusfah its part of libhybris codes17:54
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tbrVenemo_j: yes it is18:04
Venemo_jthanks tbr18:04
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tbrhttps://together.jolla.com/question/67668/additional-sailfishos-community-meeting-on-irc-2014-12-02t1500-utc/ - please let me know if I missed something in the wording?18:04
Venemo_jtbr: may I attend?18:04
tbrVenemo_j: I'll be disappointed if you don't!18:04
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Venemo_jtbr: :P18:05
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tbrso please let me know here if there is anything about the tjc topic, if there isn't anything to add I'll push it to the mailing list too18:05
Venemo_jsorry, can't18:05
tbrnoooo :(18:06
Venemo_jif I open that link, my jolla will kill the IRC app and the media app18:06
Venemo_jwhen I disconnected earlier, it was because I opened something in the browser and the OS killed IRC18:07
tbrtoo bad18:07
tbrlet me paste the text18:07
tbrmonologue warning!18:08
tbrDuring the last meeting the topic of Jolla and its relation to the open source community exceeded the allocated time slot. Hence it was decided to hold a separate meeting one week later: Tuesday, 2014-12-02T15:00 UTC18:08
tbrI (Thomas, a community member) have been asked to chair the meeting and am hereby soliciting input for the agenda. Please post your proposed agenda items as answers to this topic. As the general topic is complex and discussions tend to require time, I am reserving up to 90 minutes and will allow a maximum of 3 main topics and possibly some smaller topics, if it is evident that they won't need more than 5-10min each. Should the number of valid to18:08
tbrPlease state clearly the area you want to see discussed and if you will be available to bring your point to the table on IRC.18:08
tbrAs this is a continuation of a complex issue, before commenting or answering this post you are expected to have at least read the full log of the open source time slot of last weeks meeting, also if you participated in the meeting. I reserve the right to, at the least, ignore comments and answers where the person hasn't done so.18:08
tbrI hope for plenty of participants both from the community and from Jolla, as I firmly believe that both sides still have a lot to learn and great things can come from such meetings (cf. Jolla's very open approach about tablet development, most prominently hinted by @Stskeeps during the meeting).18:08
tbrI hope it didn't chop of the main paragraph18:08
Venemo_jreading now18:08
Venemo_jI think your wording is excellent18:09
Venemo_jpolite, motivating, and to the point18:10
Venemo_jtbr: so thumbs up18:12
tbrI'm being a bit tough on the "you must read" bit, but I'm trying to make it positive18:13
tbrif people don't read it there will be no progress18:13
Venemo_j+1 on that18:13
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pvanhoofSomebody knows when the tablet is for sale? Or is it already for sale?18:42
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tbrit's on indiegogo for "pledge" aka preorder18:42
tbrit will go on sale probably after the first batch starts shipping in may?18:42
pvanhoofaha ok18:43
pvanhoofon preorder i can get it before i guess..18:44
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tbrthe preorders are to ship in may AFAIU18:47
pvanhoofaha ok18:47
tbrhttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/jolla-tablet-world-s-first-crowdsourced-tablet/18:47
pvanhoofi wonder if i can convince the guys to send me a proto :)18:47
tbrif you have $very_good_reasons - who knows18:48
pvanhoofi don't, tracker probably just works on it18:48
pvanhoofbleh :)18:48
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walokratbr: are topics about harbour considere? like this in tjc: https://together.jolla.com/question/53690/harbour-more-statistics-and-rest-api/18:52
tbrfrom what we've heard so far it's going to be the same sailfishOS for both devices at the core, so probably no big tracker work. :)18:52
walokrahave read the meeting logs but either have missed or there haven't been any new news about better harbour18:52
tbrwalokra: how does that fit in the open source (strict) theme?18:53
walokratbr: that's why I asked. kind of how to support and motivate developers :)18:53
tbrwalokra: in my opinion your topic is tangential at best and should rather be proposed for the next regular meeting.18:54
walokrayep, have to remember to suggest that topic on regular meeting18:54
tbrdo it now on the TJC item for that18:54
walokratjc is confusing18:55
tbrhttps://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/18:55
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Venemo_jtjc is only confusing if you never used things like stackoverflow before18:58
walokrait would need some option to ignore some topics (without ignoring tags)19:00
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r0kk3rzVenemo_j: that and lots of people dont use it properly19:06
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stephgevening guys19:48
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stephgtbr great you have the topic up19:48
M4rtinKtbr: Thanks a lot for taking care of organizing the meeting! :)19:50
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hasdfHello, anybody got TextSecure running?20:05
Venemo_j_what's that?20:06
pdanekHey, what's the best offline navigation on Jolla?20:07
Nicd-pdanek: HERE beta20:08
r0kk3rzpdanek: ^^, android app unfortunately20:08
hasdfTextSecure is a client2client encrypted messanger for android. https://whispersystems.org/20:08
pdanekNicd-: r0kk3rz: Does it support car navigation?20:10
pdanekHighways etc.20:10
r0kk3rzyeah20:10
pdanekIs it for sure offline?20:10
Venemo_j_mhm20:11
r0kk3rzits pretty good, download the apk from the nokia website20:11
hasdfok other question ;) If i install google play store, do (push) updates work?20:11
pdanekI will be in roaming zone, I can't download 10m maps on the go :D20:11
r0kk3rzyou need to pre-download maps20:11
pdanekI can't find it in G. Play20:11
pdanekhm20:11
r0kk3rzits not on gplay20:12
pdanek:O20:12
r0kk3rzdownload from nokia website20:12
pdanekok20:12
pdanekmap pre-download will be from app directly?20:12
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r0kk3rzhttp://here.com/beta/android/?lang=en-GB20:13
pdanekhmmm20:13
r0kk3rzyeah20:13
pdanekHERE Drive+ vs HERE Maps?20:13
r0kk3rzthe android app does both20:13
pdanekcool, thx!20:13
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pdanekWhy is it better than Google Maps?20:17
pdanekGoogle Maps coverage in CZ is pretty solid.20:18
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anonfrieseit's completely offline - including the navigation20:18
anonfrieseotherwise - i guess it's kinda comparable. i prefer the voices & car navigation on here, but that's mostly personal taste20:19
anonfriesealso: it's not google (if that's a plus for you) ;)20:19
Nicd-and it works without google play20:19
M4rtinKI think OsmAnd should also work20:20
Teguerr örr, why does the here android beta want to be able to send sms's? or read the call log and contacts? shoo20:21
anonfriesethink the contacts thing is for enabling navigation directly20:22
pdanekhmmmm20:22
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anonfriesealso there's that glympse stuff, where you can share your location with contacts - but you can dactivate that20:22
pdanekIt doesn't allow downloading maps on SD card?20:22
pdanekAndroid layer can't see SD card?20:23
anonfrieseyeah, but there was sth. on tjc recently regarding setting up btrfs so you can20:23
anonfriesedidn't try it yet, i only need germany maps and they are sth. under 1gig20:23
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Nicd-M4rtinK: OSM doesn't cut it though20:25
M4rtinKyou mean the app or data coverage ?20:26
Nicd-the data20:27
M4rtinKcoverage really depends on your area20:27
pdanekThx all, downloading!20:27
M4rtinKthat is for sure20:27
M4rtinKin my case it is the other way around20:27
Nicd-yeah, but you can't count on a navigator that works variably based on where you are going20:27
M4rtinKgoogle coverage is passable20:27
M4rtinKbut OSM has much more data20:27
Nicd-OSM is great in the cities and really detailed (better than most other maps), but when you get out of the city here it turns shit20:27
M4rtinKespecially pedestrian, bike and field paths20:28
hasdfcan I search sailfishos apps without having a jolla yet?20:28
M4rtinKthen get to mapping :)20:28
Nicd-hasdf: openrepos has many, otherwise you can google. there's no way to search the store without a device20:28
M4rtinKand I mean it seriously - it is really not that hard and rather fun :)20:28
Nicd-yeah, I've drawn something20:28
Nicd-but that doesn't fix the problem20:28
M4rtinKyeah20:29
M4rtinKI thing it is best to combine both20:29
M4rtinKat least for now :)20:29
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Nicd-I mainly use OSM for geocaching20:31
Nicd-it's the best map in the city area20:31
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hasdfdamn why doesn't shipping to germany use rockets :D hate to wait 4 days20:44
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Stskeepsprobably wouldn't be received very well if we started sending rockets towards germany..20:45
Stskeeps:P20:45
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Teguweird, I cannot copy anything anymore21:01
Tegushould probably boot, but is there anything that could be checked for debugging?21:02
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Teguards germany..21:04
Tegu22:45:21 < Stskeeps> :P21:04
Tegusorry21:04
Tegufail copy&paste arrempts. seems to work inside fingerterm.21:05
Tegubut not anywhere else21:05
stephgTegu: failed how? buffer lost? wrong data? aliens etc.?21:13
stephg(or are you in fingerterm, or the IRC app or...)21:14
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fennekkialiens21:16
fennekkioh nevermind I thought this was a different channel21:16
anYchasdf: imagine you have to send it back for repair... :/21:17
Tegustephg: I just tried to copypaste within fingerterm and it worked appparently21:17
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FireFlyAFAIK the fingerterm clipboard is separate from the sailfish one21:17
Tegubut nothing can be copied in the ui21:18
Teguif I try to select a browser url, it is not copied21:18
stephgand if you open, I dunno, the notes app the same?21:18
Tegu(and should have tried that paste in status window or something :P)21:19
Tegutried notes, too. does not work21:19
Teguany logs or something to save? else I'll just try rebooting :P21:20
stephgthe fingerterm on the jolla is the old one, doesn't have any silica (afaiu)21:20
stephgTegu: you could have a hunt around the journal21:21
stephg(become root, journalctl -a)21:21
stephg^^ that'll be a bunch easier over ssh21:23
stephgbut beyond that, yes a reboot will 'fix' it21:24
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Teguyea, that log is loong21:25
stephgdoes sound like a bug tho21:26
stephgor certainly broken21:27
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TemeVTegu: I had that once also. I assume restarting lipstick or maliit would fix that21:31
TemeVbut booting is easier if uptime doesn't matter :)21:32
kimmoliuptime is futile... https://app.younited.com/?shareObject=fddab024-4afc-eac6-49e7-809192bb5f9e21:36
stephgkimmoli: 101 days is like 2 and a half updates ;)21:40
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kimmolithat is still at lake T21:42
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stephgwow cool21:43
stephgTegu: just out of interest, btrfs fi sh /21:44
stephg(as root)21:44
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stephg(actually don't think the trailing slash is needed)21:44
Teguwhat does it do?21:44
Tegu:D inb4 something like rm -rf /21:44
stephgfree space on the filesystem21:44
Teguyea rm -rf / lso frees space :P or was this the "btrfs getting full" problem21:46
stephgshowing free space21:46
stephgnot 'freeing space' ;)21:46
stephgfor comparison: http://pastie.org/975272321:47
stephgcompletely a hunch21:48
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stephgand your problem is probably completely unrelated but I thought I'd ask21:48
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Teguoh, great. now I just have to get the output here :D21:54
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stephgonly the devid line is important21:56
stephgthe values of 'size' and 'used'21:57
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stephginfact21:57
stephgTegu: only 'used'21:57
stephgif it's ~= 'size' then that's not great21:57
stephg(but may be completely unrelated to your problem)21:58
Teguouch, size 13.75, used 12.7521:58
stephgthat's ok21:58
Teguokay? how close it should be to bad21:59
stephgit's related to how btrfs allocates space for metadata22:00
stephgI'd need to RTFM but I have 256M in my head22:00
Tegu:D22:01
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stephgso for us ~ 13.5GB22:01
stephgbtw what does your 'used' on the line above read22:01
stephgFS bytes used22:01
Tegu5.6222:02
stephguse alot of android apps? (just out of interest)22:02
Teguhumm, not soo much22:03
Tegubut some, yea22:04
Tegudoes it affect btrfs somehow?22:06
stephgnothing more than anything else does22:07
Teguor was it just unrelated to btrfs22:07
Teguoki22:07
stephgbut by default all the android storage lives on that subvolume22:07
stephgfor apps and such22:07
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stephgso if you had alot of apps, each storing their data in a bazillion different ways as they're all different apps...22:08
stephganyway22:08
stephgI had a look on TJC and couldn't see anything that looks like your prob, if I were you I'd open a topic there22:10
Teguah yea, maybe I should. could bea hard to reproduce, though22:11
stephgrecord it tho22:11
stephgit's important22:11
stephgand with that, bed-tiem22:12
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Teguokay, good night, and thanks :)22:12
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stephgthe reboot will sort it :)22:13
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Teguyup22:14
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