#jollamobile log for Monday, 2014-12-29

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jcbjoeis there a setting that can make screen timeout longer ?00:22
lpotteryes00:23
jcbjoelpotter: what is it ?00:26
M4rtinKjcbjoe: you can use this to completely disable it: https://openrepos.net/content/xmlich02/stay-awake00:26
lpottersettings->system->display00:27
jcbjoewhat if i disable auto brightness and install the warehouse rpm00:29
jcbjoewill the warehouse one kill my battery faster ?00:29
jcbjoethanks lpotter and M4rtinK00:32
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M4rtinKjcbjoe: the warehouse app will keep the display always on, even on battery00:33
M4rtinKand the "keep screen on on charger" is a new thing from U10 IIRC00:34
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Warnaudmorning06:39
Stskeepsmorning06:40
Nicd-mmm, dat -25°C06:44
Nicd-when your face hurts and your eyelashes start sticking together06:44
temmi_moohttp://ell-i.org/open-illuminati-hackathon/ <-- for anybody interested in hacking with light06:44
zuttoonly -18c here06:45
temmi_moo-17 here in espoo06:45
temmi_moobtw i'm in otaniemi so if anybody wants to see open source hardware coolness...06:45
tbrgood moaning06:47
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locusfmorning :)07:06
locusftbr: thanks for solving it, transplant might just do it :)07:06
tbrlocusf: that's why I mentioned it07:09
tbrlocusf: do a factory reset after writing the image, so that it comes up clean07:09
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locusftbr: I only care for the free space, not sfos on the patient phone :)07:18
tbr:)07:19
Stskeepsyou'll want that for modem and such sakes too07:20
TMavica_JollaMorning07:23
Stskeepsmorning TMavica_Jolla07:23
Stskeepshow's helsinki treating you07:23
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TMavica_Jollanice!07:27
TMavica_Jollabut shop closed too early07:27
Stskeepswelcome to finland :P07:28
Stskeepsi was shocked to find out i couldn't buy a beer in a shop after 9pm07:28
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TMavica_Jollalol07:29
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TMavica_Jollatoday should go sibelous monument and rock church07:29
Stskeeps:nod:07:30
TMavica_Jollasibelius seen too far for walking .07:31
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Stskeepstake tram?07:32
TMavica_Jollawhat number? and when i need stop..07:32
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Stskeepsmaps.google.com will tell you07:35
tbrthere is probably even a public transport app07:35
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TMavica_Jolla_ok07:41
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TemeVStskeeps: amateur mistakes, in Finland you need to maintain your own stash of beer :)08:05
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StskeepsTemeV: i should just buy a storage somewhere..08:06
TemeV:)08:08
Obi-Lanalcohol and bureaucracy08:12
Obi-Lanthats something thats is constantly out of control in finland08:15
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japa-ficat /etc/sysctl.d/vm.conf | grep swappiness08:27
japa-fi# reduce swappiness to enhance the response to interactive08:28
japa-fivm.swappiness = 3008:28
ln-(useless use of cat)08:28
japa-ficat /proc/sys/vm/swappiness08:28
japa-fi5008:28
japa-fi30 <> 5008:28
japa-fiSo apparently vm.conf is not read?08:28
japa-fijust wondering where I can set the overcommit_ratio to survive boots08:29
Stskeepsit's overriden by a later file08:33
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Nicd-hmmm, my btrfs fi show is telling me09:58
Nicd-Total devices 1 FS bytes used 6.15GiB09:59
Nicd-devid 1 size 13.75GiB used 13.75GiB path /dev/mmcblk0p2809:59
Nicd-that bad? :P09:59
ggabrielcould be, could be not09:59
ggabrielhttps://together.jolla.com/question/30822/root-and-home-disks-full-and-causing-various-problems/09:59
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ggabriellong read, but worth it10:00
Nicd-I remember the output looking a bit different10:01
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Nicd-but I've been dreading the day when it's 13.75/13.75 again10:01
Nicd-took about a year10:01
ggabrielmine has been like that for ages fwiw10:02
TemeVI had around 12/13.75 few days back10:02
TemeVbalance helps :)10:03
ggabrielbalancing is a faff tho10:03
ggabrielbut it may need to happen at some point10:03
ggabrieli thought i'd have time over xmas10:03
ggabrielbut i guess i underestimated my free time ;)10:03
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TemeVi just put it running in screen10:03
ggabrielideally you want the phone connected to the charger and whatnot10:04
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ggabrieluhm... my sd card has been funny. i hate sandisk10:10
ggabrieli don't think i'll ever buy them anything else10:10
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japa-fiI've tried syncevolution as tool to sync my contacts to my owncloud. The darn thing is not happy with the https certificate, it does not trust it. How can I add the certificate to jollas cert database as trusted?10:16
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Nicd-so, I have 4.53 GiB used in reality, how much can I realistically gain with a rebalance?10:34
Nicd-currently btrfs is at 12.82 used of 13.7510:35
tbrtry and find out10:35
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Nicd-well, doing -dusage=20 / now10:36
Nicd-usage went from 12.82 to 10.82, nice.10:37
TemeVmine seems to be now 8/13.75, really used 5.5G10:38
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Nicd-japa-fi: you can get a free certificate that sailfish trusts from startcom10:39
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japa-fiNicd-, https://together.jolla.com/question/2949/where-can-i-add-a-system-ca-certificate/  <-- found this, followed the steps and now at least openssl states it trusts my certificate.10:40
japa-fiYet, the sync evolution doesn't :(10:40
Nicd-TemeV: I'm already down to 6.60 used10:42
TemeVoh, well my Jolla has had a week or two time to use that space since balancing :)10:48
Nicd-now it has stopped getting smaller so I'll stop at 6.60 and just copy back my stuff10:49
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Nicd-phew, btrfs disaster avoided11:01
Nicd-... maybe. it just rebooted11:01
Nicd-on its own11:01
kimmolibtrfs balance may reboot, but it should continue...11:02
Nicd-no, I mean I had already done the balance11:02
Nicd-and copied back my stuff and rebooted manually11:02
Nicd-then I opened younited and the phone rebooted11:02
Nicd-didn't see jolla logo or red led though so maybe just the UI died. dunno11:02
kimmolii had some ah11:03
kimmoliah11:03
Nicd-damn, it seems all of my ambiences have disappeared :(11:03
Ezkooh yeah11:06
Ezkoshould probably update my phone11:06
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temmi_moosounds like i'll hold the update for a while yet still11:13
mekluany ambiances I have that use an image off the memory card get wiped on reboot11:15
TemeVI've been planning to make a rpm package for my ambiances. It seemed easy enough11:17
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locusftbr: transplant worked, thanks for the tip :)13:39
VenemoI was under the impression that these kind of issues had been fixed in btrfs a long time ago13:40
Nicd-but jolla btrfs is ancient13:41
Nicd-at least the kernel, probably has backported patches on top of it though13:41
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VenemoNicd-: IIRC they backported a lot of it (not sure about exact versions though)13:43
M4rtinKseeing how btrfs gets broken every other kernel release (and even point release! :P) I'm not sure backports will help much :)13:45
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Venemoa while ago I saw a benchmark that compared btrfs with other file systems13:55
Venemoand it convinced me to stop caring :( btrfs doesn't perform any faster than the others13:55
Venemoso what's the point then.13:55
nbg23btrfs isn't about performance. it provides features no other filesystem has.13:56
Nicd-except zfs?13:56
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mekluit's like zfs but unstable and exciting!13:56
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TemeVI've heard zfs on linux is also unstable and exciting?14:04
nbg23is jolla actually using any of the feautures that other linux filesystems (e.g. ext4) do not provide? If they don't, I don't quite understand the motivation behind using an experimental filesystem with a relatively old kernel.14:04
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fluxwell, the factory reset image is a snapshot14:04
fluxso when you start the system the first time, you get to modify the system and the snapshot stays intact14:05
fluxwith ext4 that would either mean copying the factory reset image to the startup filesystem, or using lvm snapshots14:05
fluxnot sure how great the latter option would be14:05
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fluxat least the concept of 'free space' would be even murkier there14:05
fluxperhaps some overlay filesystem with some support for partially writing to files would work.14:07
fluxbtrfs also supports compression, I don't know if jolla makes use of it (but it seems to me it certainly could, the binaries do take some space)14:07
tbrkernel.org only just merged an overlay filesystem14:07
fluxI don't think it works in this scenario out-of-the-box, does it?14:08
tbreverything so far in that space had a bag of problems14:08
nbg23I think it actually makes sense for a small company like jolla to use existing solutions which need only little self-made adjustements.14:08
nbg23at least they can blame someone else if things don't work ;)14:08
tbrI even used one of the early ones on a 2.4.19 kernel14:08
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tbrand it wasn't fun at all14:08
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fluxI just wish jolla gets the enhancements btrfs folks are doing, but I most wonder how much work will the backporting become in the long run14:09
tbrbackporting features like btrfs is nearly impossible14:10
tbrso much around them changes14:10
Nicd-maybe they should just make the phone balance with some low -dusage setting periodically to attempt to keep the filesystem happy14:10
Nicd-and hope the balancing won't kill it :P14:10
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tbrbrings up an interesting question: what FS will we see on the tablet :)14:11
fluxeven if jolla project does find issues in the btrfs filesystem, it's doubtful the btrfs folks will care about problems with such obsolete codebase :)14:11
tbrbtrfs might work better there as it should have a newer kernel14:11
tbrflux: correct, if then jolla has to backport stuff on their own and that's probably more than a full time job14:12
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ggabrielummm14:18
ggabrielif the fs on the tablet isn't btrfs, then how would an upgrade from 1.0 to 2.0 go about?14:19
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ggabrielor maybe 2.0 will work with both btrfs and something else14:19
* ggabriel reckons hpfs is a good fs for 2.0 :P14:20
Aardggabriel: first, don't focus on the "1.0" vs "2.0", we keep releasing improvements in regular intervals. second, we can run on arbitrary filesystems, just the way factory reset is done on jolla1 depends on btrfs14:20
ggabrielAard: well, that was actually what i was wondering. if recovery is the only dependency, then it should be easy to support >1 fs in future14:21
ggabrielmy point i guess is that it isn't trivial to migrate current sailfish from btrfs to [say] ext414:21
ggabrielthe other way around would be almost trivial though14:21
Aardif tablet gets a different filesystem jolla1 would still continue using btrfs14:22
ggabrieljolla1 == phone ? yup14:23
ggabriel:)14:23
Aardyes14:24
locusfdoes Jolla kernel have CONFIG_FW_LOADER_USER_HELPER enabled?14:25
locusfhmm14:26
ggabrielsorry, no zgrep :P14:26
ggabrieltoo lazy to cp etc14:27
locusfseems that this build of ubuntu won't work due to:         * Userspace firmware loading support has been removed and14:27
locusf          the minimum supported kernel version is thus bumped to 3.7.14:27
fluxggabriel, well, not trivial but possible if at least 50% space is available, as you can trivially reduce btrfs size on-the-fly14:27
locusfsorry for the flood14:27
fluxpersonally I would like to see btrfs go forth, but it's pretty bad if it cannot be upgraded to the latest and bestest :/14:28
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ggabrielflux: well, i hardly use the internal storage and I'm at ~50% usage already14:28
tigeliflux: the backporting is pain in the ass..14:28
ggabrielhardly use=meerun i think is the highest consumer, then it's caches and wahtnot14:28
tigeliflux: and for some other issues we just can upgrade the kernel14:29
tigelican't14:29
fluxit might save some more space if it were possible to upgrade the factory reset image and then arrange it so that current / is shared with that14:29
fluxtigeli, yes, I understand the reality is that neither the kernel can be upgraded and neither can btrfs be backported in a bulk-like fashion, perhaps some smaller fix are possible to port14:30
fluxthough it's quite annoying that the kernel cannot be upgraded.14:30
tigeliflux: we have cherry-picked fixes to the btrfs :)14:30
tigeliflux: also, you can reset the factory to image any btrfs-snapshot if you really want to14:31
tigeliflux: there's even a tool for it (sailfish-snapshot)14:31
fluxtigeli, that's a good point..14:31
tigeliflux: https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-snapshot14:31
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M4rtinKBTW, LVM can also do thin/COW snapshots these days :)14:37
M4rtinKand unlike btrfs it is sane :)14:37
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fluxso how about when you run out of space?14:37
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M4rtinKalso there are separate internal logical volumes for data & metadata14:38
M4rtinKyou you can easily check for free space in both14:38
fluxbut what concretely happens when you yes > hello14:39
M4rtinKor even resize metadata volume if too small14:39
tigeliI would not use thin provision unless you really are sure that you can add more raw-storage when needed14:39
fluxdoes the filesystem say "out of space" or does it say "io error"14:39
M4rtinKtigeli: well, AFAIK the tnin/COW snapshots need thin provisioning14:39
fluxor does it say "fatal io error, remounting as read only" :-)14:40
fluxI guess it simply get stuck until someone makes more space.14:40
flux(to the block device)14:40
flux(+could)14:41
M4rtinKwell when I started having issues with btrfs on my Jolla14:43
M4rtinKit was not very deterministic14:43
M4rtinKbasically file operations failed at random14:43
M4rtinKyou could touch a file, edit it save it14:43
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M4rtinKbut if you wanted to take a picture14:44
M4rtinKyou had about a 50% chance of it being saved14:44
tigeliM4rtinK: not really, you can have exact amount of unallocated space available what has been allocated :)14:44
tigelibut nobody really does that.. unless you are working for government :D14:44
tigeli"yes we always have x TB unallocated for writes to be guaranteed to succeed"14:45
M4rtinKI've heard some  horror stories about distributing thin volumes to users/departments14:46
M4rtinKwithout communicating the main principle behind them :)14:47
tigelihaha :)14:47
M4rtinKso people checked free space - 1 TB volume, nice! :)14:47
M4rtinKand after a while, fun started when the pool rapidly run out :D14:47
M4rtinKand random production stuff running of it started to fail :D14:48
tigelipeople don't either realize that deleting files/dirs from a storage does not free up the space immediately but in worst case days later14:48
M4rtinKyeah14:48
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M4rtinKeven on workstations people usually don't mount with trim14:48
M4rtinKbut use croned fstrim, usually once a day14:49
M4rtinKso even there it can be an issues14:49
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M4rtinKeven though I've read about some "online" trim improvements coming for XFS or EXT14:49
M4rtinKmost probably some sort of internal batching14:50
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fennekkii wonder if you could get Mumble to work on Jolla15:48
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SK_workfennekki: maybe, if you can manage to build dependencies15:59
SK_worknot an easy task15:59
SK_workplus you need to write a custom ui15:59
locusfI wonder whats up with adreno firmware file not loading in ubuntu15:59
locusfI've put it in many places but its still not picked up by udev or the kernel16:00
jcbjoedid anyone get my last message ?16:08
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mekluif it happened within the last hour, no16:11
jcbjoehello .. how long does it take to get some kind of tracking information if you buy something directly from the jolla store ?16:12
jcbjoe^16:12
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tigelijcbjoe: you mean shop.jolla.com?16:12
jcbjoeyes16:12
tigelijcbjoe: http://shop.jolla.com/eu_en/orders-delivery/16:14
ursi got mine the moment they shipped, approx 2 days after ordering16:16
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jcbjoeok16:17
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jcbjoeok16:21
jcbjoeoops sorry i was on another screen16:21
jcbjoei purchased it on satruday a black other half and a screen protector16:22
jcbjoeso Tuesday it might ship out right ?16:22
jcbjoei'm trying to gauge how fast it ships cuase i stil have to order my jolla :D16:22
jcbjoetrying to see if i get it from amazon or shop.jolla.com16:22
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locusfhmm of course Jolla kernel doesn't use fw_path :p16:25
locusfand it seems that I gotta hunt this down from the gpl drop :D16:26
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Ezkojcbjoe: 1st and 6th of january are national holidays in finland so it might take longer than expected17:47
jcbjoeEzko: dam17:51
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jcbjoei will order it from amazon and do one of there 1 day shipping options then17:54
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Obi-Landolphin seems to be quite nice browser for Jolla20:38
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salyavinwell it's an android app right?20:47
salyavinso not so nice :P20:47
Obi-Lanlets put it this way; sucks less than Jolla stock browser20:52
Obi-Lan(and has lastpass plugin)20:52
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NRKAHi, is it possible to change mac address, on the Jolla phone?21:05
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cvp_O/21:09
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Teguwhat the... my father has a pre-ordered jolla and its receipt says that it has 24-month warranty. meanwhile, my receipt says that jolla has 12-month warranty. mine has been bought from a store, so no preordering or webstore.. I wonder why the times differ21:41
tbryou answered yourself. different seller.21:43
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cvp_Tegu, directly from jolla store ?21:51
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Tegutbr, well, yea. I just didn't know it could affect21:53
Tegucvp_: other from the jolla preorder webstore, other from dna store21:54
Teguso, purely own fault :P21:58
Stskeepsworth a question to care i guess21:58
Stskeepshttp://ec.europa.eu/consumers/ecc/consumer_topics/buying_goods_services_en.htm21:59
tbrStskeeps: thats's a whole different topic21:59
Stskeepsmmm, admittedly i'm not so much into consumer laws22:00
Stskeepsi presume the 12 one is 'own commercial guarantee' as on that page22:00
tbrfor new consumer goods the statutory EU warranty is 24 months. 6+1822:00
Stskeepsyes22:00
tbrnow in addition to that the seller, reseller and manufacturer can be offering various warranty schemes of their own volition and are not restricted in those in any way22:01
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Stskeepsso the 12 one is likely the own warranty scheme and 24 was from when nobody had a clue what we were doing..?22:04
Stskeepsdoesn't stop the 6+18 warranty though22:04
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tbrall correct22:06
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tbrand unless stated on the receipt it's a seller warranty (just like the 6+18)22:06
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tbrif it would state on packaging or leaflet, then it would likely be a manufacturer backed warranty22:07
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phlixiI can only tell about the german regulations, where you have 6+18, within the first 6 months the seller has to prove it was OK when sold, and after that until 24th month the buyer has to prove the fault existed when bought. This is purely between the selling party and the customer, the manufacorer is not involved at all.22:25
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tbrphlixi: that's EU level, not just germany22:26
phlixibeyond this the manufactor can give further promises22:26
phlixithen you have to deal with the manufactor22:27
tbrit's not just the manufacturer. see my earlier comments.22:28
phlixiwasnt sure about EU, only know about germany; but of course it is plausible that this is not limited to germany :-)22:28
phlixijust wanted to emphazise that this is only between seller and customer. everything beyond (including the manufactor) that is optinal22:30
phlixithus its perfectly fine to have different intervals on different stores22:31
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