#jollamobile log for Wednesday, 2015-03-04

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mariodback00:06
mariodwait a moment ... what are you saying there about "buying" ... i'm sorry but i need some free tool :)00:07
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mariodbrb00:46
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Ezkodoes anyone else have problems with their phone showing in devices on windows after plugging a usb cable in08:56
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Joonaashowing or not showing?09:03
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Ezkonot showing09:21
tbrwhat's your USB mode?09:22
tbrhave you tried with a different cable?09:22
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Ezkonow it started working immediately when i kept the cable connected to the phone and replugged it in the computer09:24
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chem|sthmm one more video and I understand the move to the statusbar even less... on the phone it seems that it is barely visible in apps so where is the point when I have to peek anyway? New users will be disoriented by such stuff..."where is my statusbar gone"09:28
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chem|stEzko: win7 had me make 3 attempts...09:29
Yanielwait there is a statusbar now?09:29
chem|stin any plugging combo09:29
chem|stYaniel: sfos209:29
Ezkoyeah i'm running windows 7 aswell09:29
chem|stand some other stupid things!09:30
politiechem|st on phone to?09:31
chem|stYaniel: buttons, statusbar, launcher replaces events-view, 3pane home with partnerscreen - home - events09:31
Yanielehh09:31
chem|stpolitie: MWC demos show both the same but phone has no landscape home09:31
tadzikwell, launcher replaces events-view geographically, events-view is not going away :)09:33
chem|sttadzik: yeah global gesture... dumbest move right after buttons and statusbar09:34
tadzikI still haven't seen these cover buttons so I just pretend that they don't exist09:34
chem|stbetter give us some autostart gui so we do not need to start our favourite apps every boot09:34
chem|sttadzik: pretend as you like left-right pulls for events and partnerscreen09:35
chem|stI really don't know how these changes should help new users...09:36
chem|stpeople need to "apply" changes, what did Jolla removed the apply gesture from all settings as moving fwd is not natural as you end up in the other direction, I never thought about that I end up in the other direction but after the change I was unsure if changes are now applied or not09:38
Nicd-what apply gesture?09:39
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chem|stNicd-: when you are in settings and change something there is only back, back is naturally cancel09:43
chem|stgoing fwd is naturally apply09:43
Nicd-well I think it's better to only have one direction to go09:44
Nicd-because people accidentally swipe to the wrong direction otherwise09:44
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chem|stbut some peops complained about that they then end up with a "back transition", maybe another more telling transition and maybe a checking hook icon like the lock-icon when locking the phone would have made that more fluent09:44
chem|stNicd-: when I go back I want to discard changes usually09:45
chem|stbetter visual feedback would be nice09:46
Nicd-but people misunderstand. because they saw the view came from the right, they want to go left back one level when they are done09:46
Nicd-it's more intuitive for me at least09:46
chem|sthmm09:47
chem|stbut going back is go to the past09:47
chem|stand pages with apply and cancel are cancel left apply right too09:48
chem|stany questionaire goes fwd to the right, checkout buttons are to the right, we read left to right09:49
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Yanieltell that to arabs or chinese09:50
tbror generic, to anyone who's primary language uses RTL09:51
chem|stYaniel: I know that there are downwards and right to left but .fi is not arabs or japanese09:51
Nicd-but .fi aren't the only jolla users09:51
tbrand by far not all sailors are finns09:51
tbrIIRC it was even below 50%09:51
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chem|st should a language setting change the layout RTL? most probably yes09:52
Yanielno09:52
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chem|stYaniel: it should change to the standards of that language area, if they read books the other way round fwd is for them to the other side09:53
chem|sttbr: Nicd- in that case the back gesture is actually the fwd gesture for all RTL folks...09:54
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PorkepixHey guys. Someone adviced me to maybe ask here due to a probable good presence of finnish people, helping on couple of things at Mozilla, by discussing I learned recently that they were starting to have critical missing about finnish translation on some parts as one of the translators is not very active anymore. So I forward the information here, just in case some of you know someone interested to help at this ;)09:59
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ninnnuPorkepix: I believe #lokalisointi has best concentration of Finnish FOSS-translators, you may also want to ask there.10:02
Porkepixninnnu : What is this chan about?10:02
Yaniellokalisointi means localization in finnish10:03
PorkepixYaniel : Oh, ok. I guess that asking about this exceptionally in english there will not be a problem :D10:04
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PorkepixMmmh, not that much people there, but I forwarded the message, thanks ninnnu10:06
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JoonaaEzko: yeah, sometimes i have to replug 5+ times10:25
Joonaaand then sometimes it randomly loses connection10:25
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the_mgtwhat's with this hyc tag and what is all the hate about?10:39
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Nicd-hyc?10:39
tadzikon tjc10:40
tadzikI'm curious too10:40
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Nicd-so... is the statusbar visible in all apps?10:41
tadzikoh: https://together.jolla.com/question/20626/helsinki-yachting-club-supporter-of-the-jollauiux-design-team/10:41
tadzik"They should change something, do thing others. You will need to adjust you."10:43
tadzikI need an english-english translator sometimes10:43
Yanielpls respond10:44
Yanieldo the needful10:44
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the_mgtand to what is this Haters Yachting Club referring, ffs? post pics or at least a link to a demo video or whatever10:45
Nicd-I think it's just a name they came up with for tagging posts that display their opinion of the UI changes10:46
Nicd-I didn't really see much hate in the posts10:46
the_mgtit has the same "personally, me, I do not like that my money is spend for license fees" subtext10:47
Nicd-meaning?10:47
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Nicd-I mean, they're entitled to their opinion and TJC is the place to make it heard10:48
Nicd-and I agree with most of their points10:48
the_mgtthat somebody things his personal emotions towards something jolla does is so important that it is worth to drive a campaign10:48
the_mgt*thinks10:48
the_mgtanyway, I'd like to see those UI changes, is there a video? screenshots?10:48
Nicd-try looking for tablet hands-on videos10:49
Nicd-anyway, why not make posts? should they stay silent?10:49
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the_mgtone post is ok, more than one is spam11:00
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Nicd-but the posts are for different aspects of the UI11:03
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chem|stthe_mgt: how about google videos "jolla tablet"11:23
politiebetter of googling wmc jolla11:24
chem|stthe_mgt: initially HYC was supporting sfos1.0 design decisions not haters of 2.0, I tagged evverything HYC as they destroy the principle of 1.0's no buttons, consistent left-right, clean look11:25
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chem|stpolitie: depends on your browser setting, youtube'ing jolla tablet has just enough demos on the first page11:25
politieoh ok, i only got old videos11:26
chem|stthe_mgt: from enough videos and especially the phone+sfos2.0 demos I learned that introducing the statusbar is ever more dumb than only destroying the clean look, as you will have to "peek" in most relevant cases anyway even with having the statusbar...11:27
politiewhat if you can turn it off11:28
Joonaachem|st: statusbar like android has?11:29
chem|stpolitie: everything a setting would be nice but never gonna happen11:29
politiehm11:29
politieit should happen11:29
chem|stJoonaa: topbar with battery clock and so on11:29
Joonaabut why?11:30
Joonaai mean, on the phone i sure dont need that11:30
chem|stJoonaa: that is exactly the question11:30
Nicd-is the statusbar going to be in every app?11:30
Nicd-or just home screen?11:30
Joonaawouldnt it be even more useless on just home screen?11:31
tadzikit is just homescreen11:32
chem|stJoonaa: Nicd- demo shows that it is on top of an app page so it gets scrolled away what is good as it is a small screen but then why have it?11:32
chem|sttadzik: no it is not just home screen11:32
tadzikwell, I've only seen it on homescreen on the 5-ish videos I watched11:32
Joonaachem|st: i cant watch it atm, but is it also coming for the phone?11:32
tadzikwell, homescreen and lockscreen11:33
chem|stJoonaa: for the statusbar I am all on about the phone, in the demos phone and tablet are equal but for home is not landscape on phone afaik11:33
Joonaawtf11:34
Nicd-didn't see the statusbar in the email app in the demos11:34
tadziknot in app, not in applist11:34
tadzikit seems to be in eventsview indeed11:34
Nicd-if it's not inside the apps then I don't care about it11:34
chem|sttadzik: it is in app it is on events view and so on11:35
tadzikchem|st: can you show me where you have a statusbar in the app?11:35
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chem|sttadzik: will look for the video where you actually see it... one sec11:35
tadzikthank you11:35
Nicd-I'm looking at a video with email and gallery, no statusbar in either11:36
Stskeepsstatusbar is at swipe only..?11:36
Nicd-not in android app either11:36
tadzikgreat, we now have made even Stskeeps confused11:36
Nicd-hehehe11:37
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Nicd-statusbar is in phone home screen but not in store app11:37
politiethat would be good11:38
tadzikI see a lot of confusion about visibility and peekability from both sides11:39
tadzikjolla users saying "hey, it's the sailfish way to peek to see more details!" and then "it sucks that you have to peek to see anything useful"11:39
tadzikthen sailfish being all about "details when you peek, but then look at this new statusbar, put there so you don't have to peek upwards"11:40
tadzikall in all, I'm sure it'll have a few more iterations before it ships, otherwise they could've just shipped it now to early adopters-updaters or whatnot11:41
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chem|sttadzik: I cannot find it, one of the tjcs has two jollaphone demos linked, one of them shows how the statusbar disappears for example if you scroll the eventsview11:42
chem|stpolitie: if you need to look at the home-screen for the statusbar what is the difference to peeking apart of destroying the clean view?11:44
politiehomescreen now doesnt show time nor battery11:44
politieit does when you peek11:44
chem|stpolitie: and how much time do you spend on the homescreen?11:45
tadzikwhen you peek to the homescreen, you see the battery/time iirc11:45
chem|stand in what case did you not see the clock or battery when going there11:45
politieconsidering you get to homescreen after it locks11:45
tadzikyes. And if you finish the swipe it hides, which is sensible11:45
Nicd-chem|st: but events view is not an app11:46
cityoflights2when I remove the bluetooth shourtcut then add it, the light above it , disappears11:46
cityoflights2Is this known?11:46
chem|stNicd-: everything is an app11:46
tadzikwelllll11:46
Nicd-I disagree. events view is not an app, you don't start it like an app, it's not in the app grid...11:46
Nicd-if you say the statusbar is shown in apps then I expect it is shown in all apps you have in your app grid11:46
Nicd-and that would be awful11:47
chem|stNicd-: apps are nothing else than a page you do stuff in... just because it is autostarted does not mean it is no app...11:47
Nicd-apps to a user are apps visible in the app grid11:47
tadzikI wouldn't say it's an app, even technically11:47
Nicd-I feel this may generate false support for your ticket in TJC if people think the statusbar is inside all apps11:48
tadzikit's part of the lipstick (?), the core UI, you can't close it or restart it without turning over the entire UI11:48
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chem|stNicd-: that is why I wrote that it is not in all apps11:48
tadzikI have a feeling you're making it confusing on purpose :|11:48
chem|stfullscreen apps do not show the statusbar, in lists it gets scrolled away11:49
chem|stNicd-: I just made an example with the events-view and you start a discussion about the word "app"!11:49
tadzikI think what Nicd- wants to say is that saying "statusbar appears in some apps" is quite an overstatement if it only appears on homescreen/eventsview11:50
tadzikI could say that on my jolla phone currently the app launcher takes screen space away from some of my apps, because it's always there on my homescreen11:50
tadzik(I'm spending an unnecessary amount of time discussing this)11:51
chem|sttadzik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2-w5jIxySM11:54
Pawkydoes anyone know why the network driver DOES acknowledge multicast, but android DOESNT get the stream???11:54
chem|stfrom that video it seems to be homescreen and eventsview only11:54
tadzikyeah, that was my impression as well11:54
tadzikand, if that's all the "apps" that it impacts, I don't think it's *that* bad. Still, I agree that it's inconsistent with the "peek for more details" idea11:55
chem|stI thought I have seen it on another, the bar was all black in that video, in the link I posted it is rendered correctly11:55
Pawkyor to makey my question more clear how am I to make android apps get multicast traffic?11:55
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Pawkyduh? http://arstechnica.com/security/2015/03/freak-flaw-in-android-and-apple-devices-cripples-https-crypto-protection/11:56
Pawkydoes ^^ also account for Jolla?11:57
Nicd-possibly, openssl is 1.0.1j in jolla11:57
Nicd-freak is fixed in 1.0.1k11:57
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chem|sthum jolla stopped tagging upgrades with $month$year now...12:40
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phdeswerNicd-: Pawky : According to the freakattack.com test page the browser at least is fine12:46
Pawky1-0 to Jolla vs Android then :-)12:47
HtheBPawky: ?12:47
Pawky^^12:48
Pawkyregarding the article I posted12:48
HtheByeah just noticed, was reading it12:48
HtheBso Jolla isnt effected?12:48
HtheBwhat about 3th party browsers then?12:48
TaaeemI can confirm chrome on android 4.4.4 is vulnerable12:48
ppjolla is mostly nss12:49
HtheBTaaeem: yes, but what about 3th app browsers? :)12:50
TaaeemHtheB: Chrome is 3rd party browser, about jolla I can't say anything12:52
HtheBTaaeem: it's not 3rd party... ¬¬12:52
pp(xmpp was gnutls iirc etc.)12:53
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TaaeemHtheB: it's not the default, stock browser at least on 4.4.412:53
HtheBTaaeem: that doesn't mean it's 3rd party12:53
HtheBso Nintendo sells Mario games, does that mean it's a 3rd party game? No.12:54
Mikaelaare there any SIP apps for Jolla somewhere or do Android apps work?12:54
HtheBChrome is made by Google, so it's 1st party games12:54
HtheBerr. apps*12:54
desert_mirageleave mario out of this12:54
desert_miragehe's got enough to worryabout what with bowser kidnapping peach every other quarter12:55
TominI'm quite sure that Chrome is Android's stock browser. I tested that it is vulnerable on Android Lollipop (5) too. Firefox is not vulnerable apparently.12:55
TaaeemHtheB: just checked with dolphin browser , there comes a warning message but when you click on okay it's vulnerable12:56
HtheBim pretty sure Peach loves Bowser... why would she always get caught in the first place? :P I'm sure she gets caught just to cover her love of Bowser to Mario :p12:56
HtheBTaaeem: ok :)12:56
HtheBTomin: so, there you have it. To call "Android is vurnable" is not so correct12:57
desert_miragewhat i dont get is why isnt donkey kong in on it?12:58
chem|st3rd party is non-google non-device-manufacturer12:58
HtheBchem|st: exactly12:58
HtheBdesert_mirage: Donkey Kong kidnapped Pauline before12:58
HtheBand Pauline does not exist in games anymore... guess what happened to her ;)12:59
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desert_mirageshe got married had kids and died of breast cancer?13:03
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entilshe got a heroin addiction and found a way to pay for it that keeps her on the streets instead of video games?13:07
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ShawnMcCoolok, jsut got my phone, is there somewhere a must-have app list.. like maybe a way to very quickly enable / disable internet sharing, etc13:18
Yanielthat one is built in13:18
Teguquickly13:18
Yanielfirst thing you want to update to the latest sailfish version13:18
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Teguoh wait yes, the toggle addable to favorites as well13:19
Tegu                       ^ is13:20
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ShawnMcCooli updated, but the internet sharing is buried in a settings menu. do you have tricks to get to it faster, i use it a _LOT_13:20
Yanieltap and hold the activation icon13:21
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ShawnMcCooli'm sorry, what is an activation icon?13:22
cityoflights2when I remove the bluetooth shourtcut then add it, the light above it , disappears13:22
cityoflights2Is this known?13:22
Yanielthe icon in settings where you enable or disable internet sharing13:22
Yanielwith the light next to it13:22
ShawnMcCooloh thanks13:22
Yanielcityoflights2: do you add the toggle button or the submenu13:23
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Yanielbecause it doesn't happen to me13:23
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chem|stthe snapdeal press release reads like the explanation for the 2.0 changes - will sfos become a marketplaceOS like android for india?13:31
Nicd-what press release?13:32
chem|st"deep integration of regional internet services" does not sound like "freedom" anymore13:32
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chem|sthttps://cdn.jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/50_JOLLA_AND_SNAPDEAL_PRESS_RELEASE_FINAL.PDF13:32
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ggabrielremains to be seen whether opt-out is easy or not13:33
chem|stggabriel: seems like there will be need for a "community" edition for india some time soon13:34
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entilI have no idea what "deep integration" means13:36
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ggabrielwell, it's been clear from day 1 that jolla wants to allow operators and others to participate in the ecosystem, that being a usp compared to google and apple13:36
ggabrielbut this is all talk, I don't know what it will translate into13:36
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entilif it's unremovable apps that send your private data to your isp it obviously sucks ;P13:37
ggabrielentil: the thing is... if you get the phone for free and you have to pay it back doing that, well, it's kind of fair enough13:38
ggabrielhaving said that, sudo rm -rf /path/to/isp/application should always work13:39
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chem|stsure, it is nothing that makes me worry, but I think the subsidiary carrier warlords should be met with a even more open system - well jolla is a software company and seems to want to get into nokia footsteps... means to take over the market of provider sub locked phones which they very like in asia and afrika13:39
entilwhen it ceases phoning home, it ceases being free, and they know where you are!13:39
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Nicd-"integrate their services on a prominent location in the user interface" ... so, ads for sailfish, yay!13:40
ggabrielentil: so long as you know in advance, i don't think it's a problem13:40
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entilsure13:43
chem|stNicd-: partner-screen!13:43
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Nicd-don't care what you call it, I don't want promotions on my device13:43
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Mikaelahas anyone tried Viber with Jolla?13:44
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Temeyes13:45
Temeworks flawlessly except for contacts which work pretty well too13:45
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Mikaelaok, thanks, I think I will try it instead of wondering about Skype13:46
Temesometimes there's a problem where you see others with their phone numbers, not their names13:46
TemeSkype works ok too :)13:46
tadzikskype is great as a hand warmer13:46
Temeand i was talking only about the messaging capabilities when i said "flawlessly"13:46
MikaelaI didn't try Skype, but ^^ with old phone and it drained battery and I want to try something new and Skype has Linux issues13:47
Temei assume everyone knows that audio/video is a mess with pretty much anything alien-dalvik13:47
Mikaelaoh, I would need audio/video :(13:47
Temehmm, then i can say for sure Skype does not work, or at least didn't a few months back13:47
Temenever tried av with Viber13:47
jaacoppiskype works just fine for me13:48
anandrkrisfunny thing on snapdeal - looks like they ran out of jolla phones stock13:48
Mikaeladoes anyone have experience with Viber for Linux?13:49
ShawnMcCoolis there a screenshot key combination or something?13:49
tadzikno, there's a screenshot app though13:49
ShawnMcCool=(13:50
anandrkrischeck out app by coderus that overlays on screen - it's fun..13:52
Temejaacoppi: you can make video calls?13:53
tadzikTeme: I can13:53
Temei had some problem where video would not show at all and audio stuttered so that it was unusable13:53
Temebut as i said that's a few months ago and maybe progress progressed meanwhile :)13:54
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MikaelaTeme: does "except for contacts" mean that it sees no contacts?14:01
jaacoppiTeme: yes, video works without problems14:02
ShawnMcCoolyea the screentap app works fine, i can't figure out how to close it14:04
ShawnMcCoolbut, watevs14:04
Nicd-ShawnMcCool: double tap14:04
ShawnMcCoolthanks14:04
TemeMikaela: it sees all contacts AFAIK, but for some people you can't see their name/handle... they are just phone numbers in Viber14:04
Nicd-you need to read the app descriptions :)14:04
ShawnMcCoolmeh, it's not like i was banging my head about it14:05
ShawnMcCoolsomeone suggested the app and i gave an initial impression14:05
Temei guess it suffers from the same issues as Android version of Whatsapp14:05
ShawnMcCooli'm not worried about being right every moment14:05
MikaelaTeme: it says no contacts for me14:05
Temehmm14:05
Temei faced that, and restarted either Viber, alien-dalvik or the whole phone and that fixed it14:05
Mikaelatesting14:06
Temejust can't remember which one it was exactly but restarting *something*14:06
Mikaelarestarting android surely restarts fiber too14:06
Mikaelarestarting android brought contacts14:06
jaacoppiwith android whatsapp I needed to restart the phone for the contacts to appear initially. It showed only numbers until I added Firstname and Lastname fields in People app14:07
TemeMikaela: nice14:07
jaacoppi-> android apparently needs Firstname and Lastname instead of Nickname14:07
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ikarusjaacoppi: fits with Google's real name uber alles policy14:08
Mikaela"Login alert for Safari for Linux"14:10
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Mikaela(when connecting Viber for desktop to Facebook, I didn't know Safari was for Linux)14:11
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Mikaelait looks like https://google.com/contacts also changed at some point14:16
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Mikaelahmm, interesting. I was given one phone number to call and Google automatically connected it to Google+ person14:18
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ShawnMcCoolis there a way to have certain apps run in the background and not show up on the home screen? (for example, i only want to receive notifications)14:19
Nicd-it needs support from the program14:19
ShawnMcCoolah, so what about the idea of grouping apps on the home screen? for example, i have a few android messaging programs (whatsapp, telegram) that i wouldn't mind not having to see much on the home screen14:20
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Nicd-you mean when they are running?14:21
ShawnMcCoolyea, i'd like to receive message notifications from them, like if my kid wants to messag eme on whatsapp or something14:21
Nicd-afaik there are no plans for that, you could put it as a request into TJC14:21
ShawnMcCoolcool cool14:21
ShawnMcCoolhttps://together.jolla.com/question/84978/group-running-applications-on-home-screen/14:24
fluxI suppose optimally suchs protocols would be integrated natively into Sailfish, so you wouldn't need to run a special app to get the notifications14:26
fluxbut I suppose also that that's not going to happen with the Android support14:26
ShawnMcCoolyea, frankly i'd love to have native versions, and honestly i have notifications firing off pretty well14:28
ShawnMcCoollike, when my kid messages me on whatsapp, if i'm not on the lock screen, i get a popup that lets me respond directly without aving to go into the app14:29
ShawnMcCoolbut, otherwise, i can still see the notification on the events screen14:29
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fluxI suppose technically there could be a 'hide' and 'unhide all' options in the application view14:30
fluxI mean, I would expect it to be simple to implement. but I doubt it's going to :-)14:31
ShawnMcCoolon a long tap, you could have an automatic category sitting in the next possible app position on the homescreen, you could drag apps into it or click it to see into it14:31
ShawnMcCoolall kinds of options14:31
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fluxI think it's expected that only a handful of GUI-ful programs are running at any given time anyway.14:32
Joonaamaybe you could make an app for that!14:32
ShawnMcCoolfrankly, if we had swipe.. i'd be happy with all of existence14:33
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ryukafalzMikaela: If you're looking for something not-Skype for audio/video, Tox looks interesting18:43
ryukafalzOr XMPP, though client support for that is... ehh18:44
MikaelaI already solved this issue and I should probably look into Tox as so many people talk about it. I like IRC though18:44
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ryukafalzIRC is nice, though no audio/video :P18:45
ryukafalzI do wish the default messaging app supported Jingle, would be nice18:46
Mikaelaaudio/video are scary18:46
ryukafalzscary how?18:46
Mikaelathey just are18:47
ryukafalzoh like actual a/v chat rather than the technical aspect18:47
ryukafalzfigures I'd think of the latter first18:47
Mikaelaoh, yes, I am thinking about the actual a/v18:48
ryukafalzI dunno, I have a few friends that live far away, and it's nice to be able to talk face to face sometimes18:48
Mikaelamaybe wiith some people, but if this was a/v, I probably wouldn't be here18:49
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ryukafalzOh well yeah definitely18:50
MikaelaI have sometimes considered it as it could help with English accent, but still18:50
ryukafalzIt'd be interesting if there were a group video chat for Sailfish/Jolla, but if so I'd only join in occasionally if anything18:51
ryukafalzMost of the time I'm multitasking while I'm here anyway, a/v would take up too much time18:51
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ryukafalzand the barrier to joining and leaving is higher18:52
ryukafalzon that note, got a meeting to get to18:52
* ryukafalz scrams18:52
r0kk3rzon irc nobody knows you're a dog18:53
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MikaelaI would prefer starting with OTRv3 support18:55
* Mikaela is http://sprunge.us/bGgD18:55
Teemuso you're lowoxl18:57
Teemucan't say i know what that is18:58
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juhajryukafalz: About XMPP, you need a server, don't you? I don't know of any reliable ones19:02
juhaj(Google and FB do not count as google is going to stop using it and FB does not do video/audio through it)19:02
Teemuare they going to stop the hangouts thing or refactor it into some other protocol?19:03
ryukafalz(whee, I've got a bit of time before the meeting) - Yes, you do. I personally run my own server for myself and a few friends, but jabber.org is reliable (though I think registration is now closed)19:03
ryukafalzThere are a few others, yax.im (run by Yaxim developer Georg Lukas), jit.si (run by Jitsl developers), etc.19:04
juhajClosed servers are not very useful either for replacing skype19:04
ryukafalzTeemu: Hangouts is transitioning to a closed protocol, XMPP support is gradually being dropped19:04
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ryukafalzjuhaj: The beauty of it is you can be on any server and communicate with anyone else19:05
juhajjitsi just segfaults for me (which I consider an accomplishment as it's java!) ;)19:05
CoderCandyHmm, is there any way to move my contacts from my Jolla to android?19:06
ryukafalzjuhaj: Heh - using Swing's GTK skin?19:06
juhajryukafalz: But your grandma still needs to be on some server19:06
ryukafalzjuhaj: True, and there do need to be public servers available for that to work, but that's nothing against the protocol itself :)19:07
ryukafalzMost chat systems require a server19:07
ryukafalz(The ones that don't are particularly interesting though)19:07
juhajryukafalz: True, and XMPP is very damn good proto19:07
Mikaelasorry, I was doing other things. that is jp2a version of /ctcp mikaela avatar with different size for joking about terminal client adding support for avatars19:07
Teemuif it has xml it cannot really be very damn good19:08
juhajI'd love to get rid of skype, but cannot find a viable alternative19:08
Mikaelafiber looks nice to me, but it doesn't seem to have so many users that I know19:08
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ryukafalzI haven't found something suitable yet, but I want an open protocol19:11
ryukafalzanything closed is just going to be replaced in the future and I'll be right back where I started19:11
ryukafalzbut I'm still using IRC :)19:11
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ryukafalzXMPP is nice, but it has so many extensions that so few clients support19:13
ryukafalzserver-side support is decent though19:13
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Teemuryukafalz: oh you mean much like we seem to be using ethernet for everything in communication19:14
ryukafalzHow so?19:14
Teemuit has replaced all previous protocols at link layer19:14
ryukafalzah, yes19:14
Teemuthere are no "telephony" networks any more19:14
ryukafalzWell, those haven't quite died out yet :P19:15
Teemuthere's just the global core network which is running ethernet and then several levels of isp networks on top of that and they're all ethernet19:15
r0kk3rznot to mention TCP, not quite everywhere19:15
r0kk3rzbut almost19:15
Teemuwell19:15
ryukafalzBut yes - we need an open "social" API, something used like HTTP is now but with social relations built in19:15
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Teemuip is more common whan tcp but the telco protocols run more directly over ethernet19:16
ryukafalzand end-to-end secure19:16
ryukafalzSecure Share is along the lines of what I'm looking for, it's really ambitious but development seems to have slowed - http://secushare.org/19:18
ryukafalzPSYC protocol for messaging over GNUnet19:18
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r0kk3rzpeerio is kind of doing that19:18
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ryukafalzhrm19:19
ryukafalzit looks like their client is open source but the server is not19:20
Teemugnunet sounds like something i'd avoid about as much as i did avoid the microsoft network in early 1990 when they tried to compete with internet19:22
ryukafalzheh19:22
ryukafalzWell, Microsoft network was just a competing network, GNUnet is a peer to peer framework used over the internet19:23
Teemugnu "the gnu message is more important than whatever the project is supposed to be about"19:23
r0kk3rzor even better, bittorrent bleep19:25
r0kk3rzbecause that doesnt need a server19:25
ryukafalz^ also not open source19:26
r0kk3rzyeah well theres currently not much that ticks all of the boxes19:29
r0kk3rzunless you want to make yetanothermessagingprotocol19:30
r0kk3rzwe seem to be swimming in them at the moment19:30
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Taaeemhttps://projectmeshnet.org when you talk about the Internet and alternative protocols this must be there ;-)19:31
ryukafalzTaaeem: Indeed, cjdns is quite nice19:33
ryukafalzr0kk3rz: We may be swimming in them, but there's absolutely nothing that ticks all the boxes for me :)19:35
ryukafalzMandatory for me: Open source client/server (if applicable), end to end encrypted, message acknowledgements, group chat. "Nice to have": multi-device support, audio/video.19:36
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Teemuwhat about storing messages in the network until the client comes online?19:39
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ryukafalzTeemu: Ah, right, that's one I forgot - very very nice, but not absolutely necessary (client delaying send until both peers are online works okay-ish)19:42
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ryukafalzPersonally what I'd like to see is, assuming multi-device support, have other clients for the same user store messages while another device is offline19:43
the_mgtryukafalz: but what when you are mostly never only at the same time?19:43
the_mgtdifferent timezone, lifestyles, etc19:43
ryukafalzthe_mgt: It's less of a concern with always-on smartphones, but yes, that is a potential issue19:45
the_mgtbut then it is not really multidevice19:45
ryukafalzHow so?19:46
the_mgtpcs are not always on19:47
ryukafalzBy multi-device in particular I meant a user could have a "profile" of sorts that is usable on multiple devices simultaneously19:48
the_mgtthere is tox, for example. I recommended it to a friend who asked me about secure chat options. his reply was "storing on the network when clients are offline is mandatory"19:48
ryukafalzFor group chats, I would agree19:49
the_mgtstoring on the network works only if network is large enough or if there is a server, imho19:49
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Teemui dislike how google hangouts just sends the messages to me once19:52
Teemui get some link to the jolla phone and then when i'd actually want to open that link, i would want to open it on a real display on a real computer19:53
Teemubut the link is in the jolla19:53
ryukafalzIn the event that there is a server, it should not be able to read the content of messages19:53
ryukafalzTeemu: Ah, referring to accessing it via XMPP?19:53
Teemuyes19:54
ryukafalzThat's a limitation of the XMPP clients you're using; if both had XEP-0313 support, you could read the backlog on your other devices19:54
ryukafalz(Though not with Hangouts as Google's server doesn't support it either - they have a proprietary equivalent)19:54
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Teemuthis all makes it sound like xmpp is not really a good protocol at all19:55
ryukafalzIt's a great protocol, saddled by a large number of clients that don't actually make use of its features19:56
Teemuwith all xyz-234786342987 extensions only supported on unobtainable software nobody uses19:56
Teemuwhenever the protocol is discussed, _SOME_ extension is mentioned and then noted that not all clients or servers actually support it19:56
the_mgtack. it is also a pain to implement19:57
ryukafalzA large part of the problem is these features weren't considered essential when XMPP was first being developed, which also happens to be when many popular clients were developed19:58
ryukafalzso they're not part of the "core" and implementation isn't mandatory to be compliant with the spec19:58
Teemuindeed19:58
the_mgtand now we have lots of implementations with clients that only work well with certain servers19:58
ryukafalzRe: servers, Prosody supports damn near everything - it's the clients that are the biggest issue IMO19:58
ryukafalzthe_mgt: How so?19:59
Teemua lot like how the standard gsm network made it possible to not deliver sms messages and still fully support the mandatory parts19:59
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ryukafalzheh20:00
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Teemualso, as it is xml, it cannot be truly expletively great as protocol20:00
ryukafalz"if you don't like XML" ;)20:00
Teemu:)20:01
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Teemueither protocols are plaintext-readable or they're binary20:01
the_mgtryukafalz: I know some people that write a jabber server, and they are in pain. I know one guy that wrote his own client because he hates the pidgin implementation. both are cursing and screaming20:01
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ryukafalzTeemu: I do happen to like the PSYC protocol: http://about.psyc.eu/Spec:Syntax20:02
the_mgtryukafalz: I also tried once to find a xmpp implementation with videochat between linux and windows, that is not google20:03
ryukafalzJitsi is your best bet there20:04
the_mgttried various clients, was able to get 240*96 px video transferred after a while20:04
ryukafalzalong with Empathy on Linux20:04
ryukafalzanyway, gotta head out for now20:04
* ryukafalz waves20:04
the_mgtthe truth is, the theory is fine, in practice, it sucks20:05
Teemui once read the zone file bnf and created a regex that reads dns records spitting them out as sql insert statements20:07
Teemubnf <320:07
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juhajSo no good replacement for skype. Sad.20:12
juhajAny good teamworking-organisation-management-thingies instead?20:12
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r0kk3rzconfluence?20:24
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the_mgtr0kk3rz: written in java and commercial?20:29
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Teemujava is the best!20:31
ryukafalzIf you're looking for something like Trello - Libreboard is an open source clone20:31
the_mgtwhat does libreboard do?20:35
Nicd-hahaha, it looks like a 1:1 copy of trello20:36
Nicd-down to the loading gif20:36
Nicd-"We received a DMCA takedown notice from Github regarding our user interface. We'll be back with a new UI in the next LibreBoard release" :D20:37
Teemugood start boys20:38
the_mgtjuhaj: openatrium has nice pr videos and looks interesting, dunno if it helps you20:39
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juhajthe_mgt: Are you now referring to the teamwork or the chat?20:54
the_mgtjuhaj: collaboration, not chat20:56
juhajthe_mgt: Ok. Will have a look...21:00
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krospeaking of missing apps... anybody know of some native sailfish app like "Carpe Noctem" on Symbian and Meego? (AR planetarium kind of thing)21:11
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louisdkSailfishOS 2.0 looks really nice. I just hope that Jolla will release a version 1.9 for early adopters on the Jolla Phone to get input from the community in certern features before final release.22:13
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HtheBso, what about bug fixes?22:22
HtheBif 2.0 is already in development...22:22
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chem|stlouisdk: the eventsview looks really nice and the ambience pulldown... the gesture duplicates and buttons will become annoying pretty soon22:23
chem|stHtheB: sfos2.0 is not a fresh system, it is a milestone22:24
louisdkchem|st, it's hope they'll fix the duplicates and remember to listen to the community.22:24
louisdkAlso I haven't that many images, reviews and videos from Jolla MWC15 adventure yet. Only a frew :)22:25
chem|sthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z3Tp770ups22:25
chem|stphone2.022:25
HtheBlol22:26
chem|stlol what?22:27
HtheBnexus has better hardware :P22:28
chem|stthen buy a nexus?22:28
chem|stwhat are you on about?22:28
HtheBif only you could give me some money...22:28
chem|stI could but I wont22:28
louisdkI was going to say that SailfishOS 2.0 looks even better on the Nexus 5 than on the Jolla phone :)22:28
HtheBwell, does it has benefits over the real Jolla22:29
HtheB?22:29
chem|stprobably not much22:29
chem|stfaster internal memory probably22:29
HtheB(apart from the "not having android support", kinda ironic hehe)22:29
louisdkHtheB, some features might be buggy or not work at all on the Nexus 5.22:29
HtheBlouisdk: that is always with custom roms aswell22:30
chem|stI'd like to see the current demo as a "tutorial" mode - if you leave that everything is back to normal^^ gesture wise22:30
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HtheBchem|st: :D haha22:33
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chem|stadvanced has cover actions, pull up only instead of 'all'up for launcher and events-view is back at swipe up22:33
HtheBswipe down to close = no more?  :(22:33
chem|ststatusbar is only in events-view, peeking becomes relevant22:34
chem|stHtheB: that is something that can be tweaked I guess, I think having a flick for closing things and a long swipe for opening the drop-down would suite most people22:35
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HtheBto be honest, adding those "Ambiances" is kinda irrelevant in a normal "in-app" gesture22:37
louisdkSailfishOS 2.0 looks quite stable already. It looks fast and snappy and have already been ported onto different hardware. Really hope that beta testers would be able to test very soon,22:37
HtheBif you're in-app, and do swipe from top to down, it still gives the ambiance menu22:37
phlixi_HtheB: are you sure?22:38
phlixi_this would be terrible :/22:38
HtheBphlixi_: yes, i saw it in some of the videos on youtube22:39
phlixi_when I got my jolla over a year ago, i uploaded one picture to use it as ambiance, and never changed it (ok, I changed it, but only by mistake, to change it back imideatily)22:39
phlixi_the whole ambiance stuff... couldnt care less22:39
phlixi_now closing apps needs more steps...22:39
phlixi_great!22:39
louisdkphlixi_, +122:41
HtheB+9234723098722:42
ortylpphlixi_, +122:43
HtheBI think they really want to push the ambiance shit22:43
HtheB:/22:43
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ortylpbut this is real shit, absolutely no use for it, if it had at least the functionality of Nokia profiles, but not, it is just stripped shit...22:44
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ursbtw, is there a way to disable the silly "rotate vertically for best ambience results" message in the camera app?22:44
phlixi_i understand why its done, because this is one of the rare so called differentiators of sailfish for someone who does not care about foss, privacy etc (like the mass)22:44
phlixi_well, i have mine always on silent and vibrate and never change that, but i thought you could use it just like a profile22:45
phlixi_or to explain ambiance to someone from the ninetes, its profiles with BG picture and fontcolors22:46
ortylpI NEED profiles that switch based on time and location, but no "ambiences"22:46
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ortylpmo, it does not have the functionality of profiles, that is the problem22:46
phlixi_ok, my 5130, 6110 etc never had THAT features... came back with n900 :-)22:46
HtheBortylp: you can do it now22:46
phlixi_...you always had to switch the profiles manually22:46
chem|stphlixi_: did you recognize that "the whole ambience stuff" has situation features in the demo... so things like "active from 9-17"22:47
phlixi_but cant you change amiance with situations app?22:47
ortylpyou can so some part of it using "situations"22:47
phlixi_chem|st: no (but I actuall do not care, i always want silent+vibrate and never change) but maybe ortylp is interested ;-)22:47
ortylpbut I have finally uninstalled situations, because it interfered with bluetooth and wlan connetions22:48
chem|stphlixi_: you are a special case then, as I like to have BT and WLan switched on and off and have accounts go online when at a specific location or within working hours etc22:49
ortylpon Android I am using "Tasker" and it works like a charm22:49
phlixi_chem|st: may i ask why you would want to switch off BT&WLan? or deactivate accounts?22:49
chem|stortylp: what is better than "shipped with the core software"?22:49
ortylpthe principle is: everything that can be automated should be done so22:50
HtheBortylp: here take a look22:50
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phlixi_i consider myself a heavy user (counting screen on time) and never have problems with batterie in the evening, but have to charge anyway, so why turn off wlan/bt?22:50
chem|stphlixi_: because I want to go offline from work clients and go online on private clients or do not need BT at work so it has to be off22:51
chem|stphlixi_: I have 5 days uptime, as things are all on-demand and not always on22:52
ortylpphlixi_: I have exactly the same use case as chem|st22:52
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phlixi_and what kind of accounts are those?22:52
chem|stI do not use the built in accounts atm as they are battery hungry, I connect ssh to a server saves me 75% battery22:52
phlixi_just out of curiosity22:53
HtheBortylp: http://youtu.be/X2-w5jIxySM?t=2m53s22:53
chem|stwhat accoutns? work jabber + work SIP + work email VS private jabber + home SIP22:54
HtheBhere you can see it's not closing when swiping down, and also it shows different profiles as "ambiances"22:54
phlixi_ok, never considered any of them to work at all (SIP), and email is already configurable to follow a scedule22:54
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chem|stphlixi_: your case is special you have to admit, I do not have my phone pressed to my wiener so I know when it vibrates, sometimes I am in another room and need to hear it ringing, sometimes I am in a meeting where even vibrating is off limits...22:55
chem|stat home it is lying at one spot and having it silently vibrate would be as good as having it turned off22:56
HtheBortylp: oh, you should see 5:27 !22:56
phlixi_chem|st, well, i guess you have a wrong impression, i just do not bundle my work that much on my phone, and do not want to be interupted most of the time, therefore i check if there is something new rather then let the phone interupt me ;-)22:57
HtheBhttp://youtu.be/X2-w5jIxySM?t=5m27s22:57
chem|stphlixi_: you see, you do not need a phone, you need an internet tablet of the size of a phone... mine is primarily a phone22:57
phlixi_that on the other hand is correct :-)22:58
chem|sthehe22:58
phlixi_(and i prefer size of n9^^)22:58
ortylpHtheB: but it is from the "lock screen"22:58
phlixi_but i do not think that this tooo special... but i also admit, that ambiances might be usefull in some cases (where they are not currently, afaik you can not switch them automatically YET)22:59
ortylpphlixi_: I prefer size of Galaxy Note II and stylus22:59
HtheBortylp: if you looked the link I gave you before, it's from in app ;)22:59
chem|stphlixi_: yet, sure even for you there will be usecases I guess23:00
phlixi_i can hardly imagine that. and for sure i prefer close gesture over ambiance shortcut23:00
chem|stHtheB: what is indeed nice that way is that you can lock the phone from anywhere...23:01
chem|stbut I'd like to have that as two options in that pulldown23:01
ortylpHtheB: you are right, but there is already an option to disable the swipe down, maybe it was simply switched off there... othwerwise the change would be totally contraproductive23:01
HtheBchem|st: thats why we have the "lock button"for?....23:01
HtheBortylp: yeah I think so23:01
chem|stHtheB: what button?23:01
chem|stI hate buttons23:01
HtheBoh so how do you turn on your phone if it's off? :)23:01
phlixi_double tab :D23:02
phlixi_(or charger if empty)23:02
phlixi_but i dont care23:02
chem|stI plugin a cable and hope that the charging crashes and boots the phone!23:02
chem|st:)23:02
HtheBchem|st: lol23:02
phlixi_i gues the most usefull thing of the buttons is to have correct orientation when pulling it out of the pocket23:02
HtheBI think if the lockscreen would act like N9, it would be perfect23:03
HtheBswipe from right, to get back to the last used app23:03
ortylpHtheB: the use of the button requires special handling of the device, or use with two hands, just tap on the screen and it is on....23:03
phlixi_LPS would be aaaawwweeeeeesoooomeeeeee, but we will never getthat23:03
chem|stI double tap to wake it and I only reboot my phone, and that happens from software upgrades... or reboot on console23:03
HtheBinstead of the windows23:03
chem|stphlixi_: it is already there23:03
chem|stusing it for >2 months23:03
HtheBortylp: i dont know how you hold your pohne, but I can push a button with 1 hand.. O_o23:04
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phlixi_chem|st: and 5 days no charging? doubt that!23:04
HtheBdont you guys agree about my idea?23:04
chem|stphlixi_: it is not LPS as on N9, but if you pull it out of your pocket the screen is dimm lit with info on it for example23:04
ortylpI need to reboot the device once a day because there is always something borked...23:05
phlixi_chem|st: ok, thats not usefull for me, its laying around all the time besides me. and if i pull out of the pocket, i will turn it on anyway23:05
chem|stHtheB: nope return to last opened app pisses me of the way it is now already, I do not need a gesture that does that even after hours23:05
ortylpand I have not ever started to tinker with it yet23:05
chem|stI get a text, read that put the phone down it goes off... I grab it to google something and what I need to do is get out of the msg app first == annoyed!23:06
chem|stphlixi_: it will trigger from the proximity sensor so if it is lying between my hands while typing it turns on occasionally23:07
phlixi_there i have a notepad (real paper... you know^^)23:07
chem|stthat is to my right23:08
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chem|stin front of me is usually coffee my phone and below that a stack of paper23:08
phlixi_also turning on randomly is not appreciated, that would imply that there is something new to check23:08
phlixi_...distracting23:08
chem|stphlixi_: I did not say it is perfect but without replacing the screen you wont get "always on"23:09
HtheBchem|st: having that option, as optional would be great23:09
phlixi_liked the n9, justthe time, the IP the ISO weeknumber (for the bussiness idiots) and the notifications... no need to touch, moving eyeballs was enough to check23:10
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chem|stit would be great if you could choose what the lockscreen left right does23:10
chem|stand first of all bottom swipe needs to stay events-view!23:10
phlixi_...and thats where i am always disappointed when i read the specs of a new jolla device, no oled :-(23:10
chem|stI do neither need nor want oled...23:11
chem|stcrystal clear IPS nothing less23:12
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keithzgCurrently using my N9 (still!) and a Moto X . . . lack of OLED is a huge step back, practicality-wise.23:12
phlixi_i like the possibility of LPS, the better blacks and do not care about color accuracy at all... any other benefits for LCD?23:12
chem|stwhat do I need LPS for? to see the clock? I have so many clocks around me I cannot even count them...23:12
phlixi_as mentioned above, LPS is "check for notifications with eyeball movement only"23:13
keithzgNotifications, the weather, current network status . . .23:13
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keithzgWhat other clocks do i always have on me? :P23:13
Stskeepsso much backlog23:14
Stskeeps:P23:14
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phlixi_keithzg: well, it seems like chem|st wants you to buy a pebble :D23:14
keithzgphlixi_: That's basically my backup plan :P23:15
chem|stphlixi_: I do not need to look on my phone for notifications...23:15
chem|stand what you are asking for can be achieved by an status led...23:15
phlixi_well, sometimes i want to :)23:15
keithzgughhhh status leds?23:15
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phlixi_meh23:15
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keithzgYeah, those'll tell me the battery percentage of my phone :P23:15
chem|stStskeeps: not worth reading... its only about work... well your work^^23:16
keithzgHmmm, my Jolla's Store app is stuck endlessly trying to refresh, and "pkcon refresh" similarly takes forever . . . oh, I see, timing out on 'https://store-repository.jolla.com/releases/1.1.2.16/jolla-hw/adaptation-android-common/armv7hl/repodata/repomd.xml?credentials=store'23:16
Stskeepschem|st: i've been demoing sf2.0 for a large portion of my days here.. people really get it this time around :P23:16
Stskeepssuch a joy to leave a tablet with a journalist and they walk through the ui with ease23:16
phlixi_Stskeeps: does it work the same with "the grandma"? :)23:17
chem|stStskeeps: and I just hope that this is a beginner-mode and you bring the "real" thing later on!23:17
chem|stor that it is the booth-demo version...23:18
keithzgAs long as there's still swipe-down-to-close, I'm good :) (these days I sadly end up having to use Android most of the time, but it's still impossible to untrain myself, heh)23:18
chem|stkeithzg: there isn't23:18
Stskeepschem|st: still some adjustments to be done23:18
chem|stI really hope that buttons are not an option and duplication of actions neither23:19
keithzgchem|st: Well, that hasn't been enabled by *default* for a while, right? but as long as it's an easy option (or hell, a hard one; I remember the original N9 release it took creating a config file, that's okay with me)23:19
Stskeepschem|st: hum?23:19
chem|stfrom the demos on youtube we read that cover-actions are buttons and "pulls" do just the same as "swipes"23:20
Stskeepsah.. still tuning23:20
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chem|stwhat is the events-view move about? it is the 1st priority page and got moved in third line?!23:21
HtheBStskeeps: can there be an option when you unlock the phone by swiping from the right to left, that it goes to the last opened app/window? Like it was on the N923:21
Stskeepsi'm so the wrong guy to ask about23:22
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Stskeepsthat23:22
Stskeeps:P23:22
keithzgStskeeps is the plumber, not the decorator ;)23:22
chem|st:)23:22
chem|stStskeeps: is the HW adaption going well then?23:22
Stskeepssure23:23
Stskeepsit's able to stand a mw23:23
Stskeepsc23:23
Stskeeps:P23:23
keithzghah!23:23
HtheBStskeeps: any idea who I can ask this? ^^23:23
chem|stdo we get a current kernel? or even more current?23:23
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chem|stHtheB: design team23:23
HtheBis anyone from the design theme over here?23:24
Stskeepsdon't think so23:24
HtheBok :(23:24
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keithzgHmmm the new official weather app seems to pull from the wrong local airport for the forecast for me, alas23:30
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chem|stStskeeps: to your "walks through with ease" comment, for sure, people not knowing blackberry or jolla yet that the idea of being outside their "flick the screen" world is too much to ask on first attempt - but seriously, the UI as it is now does not need to be crippled to be android-user-first-attempt compatible, with a better tutorial and/or a beginner mode you can help them on their way but removing the usability from it is not an options after23:32
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chem|stthat was maybe a bit harsh... sry23:32
chem|stthe eventsview is fabulous! and I very like the ambience pulldown (after tweaking the close-apps feature)23:33
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Stskeepschem|st: if you can't convince anybody in 30 seconds, it's a lost sale..23:34
Stskeepsbut sure, i could agree with advanced modes23:34
Stskeepsbb23:34
Stskeepsl23:34
chem|stthats why I think a beginner mode would be a good idea23:34
chem|stStskeeps: hae a good nights sleep!23:34
keithzgI actually really liked that back in the day, a lot of Linux applications would offer that. For example Xine-UI (hey, I really liked it, dammit!) by default had a basic, comprehensible set of settings, but very prominently offered the ability to bump up the 'mode'.23:35
keithzgSo for people who *did* know what they were doing, they could set it to an expert mode and tweak and change all sorts of things, both UI/"UX" wise and in terms of how it handled things under-the-hood.23:36
phlixi_keithzg: thats nice of course, but has to be implemented (and tested and documented etc etc)23:37
phlixi_... = money (time*manpower*etc)23:37
phlixi_and, it will not sell any devices (when you need it, you already have it, following Stskeeps argument to sell the device in 30 seconds)23:38
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keithzgphlixi_: Sure, sure. Although, having the complex things beneath a "here be dragons!" warning of sorts also means (like people who don't root their Android phones because of the warranty) that people are taking it into their own hands. Don't need nearly as much testing and documentation then, necessarily.23:39
phlixi_on the other hand i dot care much about the ui, i dislike google data collection and apples golden cage, and appreciate jollas openes. way more important to me than ambiance etc23:39
keithzgMmm, in my mind the overall experience is somewhat inextricable. I personally don't worry too much about Google's data collection though since all our traffic goes through pipes (in the metaphorical sense) which are completely tapped by intelligence agencies *anyways*.23:40
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phlixi_keithzg: having one tapping everything is not a reason to have another one23:41
keithzgphlixi_: I trust Google more than I trust the NSA, frankly. And they at least have an incentive to anonymise and protect the data.23:41
keithzgBut my point is, I mostly care about the choice to do whatever I want to do with a device. Which has many levels of practical issues to solve.23:42
keithzgFor example, some folks have touted Ubuntu Touch as more Free than SailfishOS. And while it's true that more components are Free Software, on the other hand Ubuntu Touch ships the core OS as a single read-only image.23:43
chem|stphlixi_: it cuts down to having pulls and swipes do the same and have coveractions be buttons, and have the statusbar23:43
chem|stthat's about it23:43
phlixi_keithzg: for now there is noubuntu ;-)23:43
phlixi_(space not intentionally left out)23:44
phlixi_chem|st: seems to me like dumbing down the ui :(23:45
chem|styeah as beginner mode23:45
chem|stthe advanced mode would be what we have now23:45
keithzgYeah, and that is someone worrying. I have Android 5.0, Ubuntu Touch and SailfishOS as boot options on my Nexus 4 and I feel most at home by far in SailfishOS.23:45
keithzgI doubt they'd go for a beginner+advanced mode, that's completely fallen out of favour with contemporary UI designers.23:46
phlixi_for now it is kinda consistent, to have gestures starting outside the screen doing something in the system (e.g. minimize an app) and starting inside the screen does something inside the app23:46
chem|stso if they manage to have the pagelayout and gestures switched from what we saw in the demos to the behaviour we have now to become advanced, sure it would be irritating at first that the events-view moved but well23:47
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chem|stwhat I do not understand is, new users still have to get that outside gesture from the beginning or they are not able to minimize an app... so why have the home-screen crippled in the first place?23:48
phlixi_well, they could use the powerbutton :D23:48
phlixi_since (i think unfortunately) the powerbutton does not bring you back to where you left23:49
phlixi_(prefer n9 style)23:49
chem|stStskeeps had a good point, first 30sec sell, but the selling point is the home-screen and the events-view23:49
chem|stat least for me23:49
chem|steasy access to all I need23:49
keithzgphlixi_: Yeah, I like the swipe-up-for-notifications, but otherwise I sadly still kindof think the N9 had it pretty near perfect.23:50
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chem|stphlixi_: double-click the pwr-button unlocks directly though23:50
keithzg'tis why I've still held onto mine as my phone, even though I end up having to carry a Moto X for every non-phone thing.23:50
phlixi_that is of course a good point, but i think it should not be over valued (or at leat it should be tried to be measured) as i think there other selling points (as mentioned above, for example openness)23:50
chem|stkeithzg: I hated the N9 for the inconsistent minimize behaviour23:51
chem|stI never knew where I end up when minimizing an app23:51
chem|stwhen I wanted to open a new app I for sure ended up on the events-page first23:51
keithzgchem|st: IIRC that was fixed by felipec but never mainlined.23:51
chem|stalso returning to the last app opened needed a turn-off-setting, that is so annoying23:52
phlixi_chem|st: the n9 behaviour is everything but not inconsistent! it is super consostent, you always get to where you left.23:52
chem|stphlixi_: as if I know where I left 3 hours ago23:52
chem|stconsistent is when you always end up on the same page23:53
chem|stso muscle memory can kick in23:53
phlixi_not nessesarily23:53
chem|stfor sure23:53
keithzgchem|st: but most of the time when minimizing an app it hasn't been 3 hours since you last touched the phone, unless you really rarely use your phone :P23:53
phlixi_i understand that you do not like that behaviuor, but it is not inconsistent23:53
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chem|stkeithzg: 3 hours... I am 31 working 8-9 hours a day, I do not check my phone every 10minutes23:54
phlixi_for example i hate it when i have a conversation and everytime there is a new message i have to maximize the app first23:54
phlixi_...instead o fhaving it where i left of23:55
chem|stphlixi_: that is when you have a conversation, that is the only case people come up with I understand...23:55
phlixi_and i have it all the time ;-)23:55
chem|stwell set the timer to 5 hours then...23:55
phlixi_...will drain the battery23:56
chem|sthae, the return to last app timer drains the battery?23:56
keithzgphlixi_: Naw, it can check when you swipe to minimize how long it's been since you last opened it.23:56
phlixi_on the n9 i never where annoyed ba landing where i left. on the jolla i am pretty often annoyed that i am not where i left23:56
keithzgOn the Jolla I'm mostly annoyed by being returned to the lock screen every time I turn it back on :P23:57
phlixi_and that silly lockscreen comes on top :)23:57
phlixi_(has been on the n9)23:57
chem|sttune it up then, if you had no new msg for minutes that is no conversation for me23:58
chem|stkeithzg: that is also tunable23:58
phlixi_i often have conversations where there is a message every 15 minutes, "in between"23:58
keithzgchem|st: Where?23:59
chem|stand that is probably a timeframe I do not get annoyed that I have to tap once more to get ther23:59
phlixi_besides, the screen turns off after (dot now, 20-30sec) and there are a lot of conversations with more than that between two messages23:59
chem|stkeithzg: you can set what double-tap and pwr-btn does with mce23:59

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