#jollamobile log for Monday, 2015-11-23

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tortoisedocgreetings!07:12
tortoisedocJolla shop is empty07:12
tortoisedocany chance to see some refill?07:12
dr_gogeta86i don't think so ... now is total layoff .. .so07:16
tortoisedocgah07:17
tortoisedocright07:17
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tbrtotal? 50% was the new07:24
tbrnews07:24
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Stskeepsthat doesn't sound accurate07:33
Stskeeps:P07:33
Stskeeps(as in, total)07:33
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* Stskeeps glances at http://electrospaces.blogspot.com/2015/11/unnoticed-leak-answers-and-raises.html07:36
Stskeepsmight interest tbr07:36
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entiltortoisedoc: local news just printed jolla reporting "their bank account being empty" so probably no bonus07:41
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tortoisedocentil : heh I guess that's the end of the line07:48
tortoisedocunless tekes can give them some funding in dec?07:49
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pp_they're having cuts as well :P07:49
pp_but I guess they could forgive existing loans or whatnot07:49
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Stskeepsafter spending some time with 'ld', i'm slowly starting to conclude that the old unix model is just plain broken07:59
Stskeeps:P07:59
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tortoisedocStskeeps : how so08:00
tbrentil: well, that's pretty much expected after earlier news08:00
Stskeepstortoisedoc: trying to work with static libraries and it doesn't actually include the whole archive... and then cmake on top of the mess08:01
Stskeeps:P08:01
tortoisedocStskeeps : err, wait what :D08:02
tortoisedocyou loading static libraries via ld?08:02
Stskeepsas in, linking it into another .so08:02
tortoisedocaah08:02
tortoisedocinjecting :PO08:02
entiltortoisedoc: beats me, bob; as much as I love the guys and all, I wouldn't hold my breath for receiving anything08:02
* tortoisedoc still wants his tablet08:02
tortoisedocStskeeps : hooking?08:02
djselbeckApplications still get approval in store, so there are people working right now ;)08:03
tortoisedocStskeeps : & patching?08:03
entiltortoisedoc: and good luck with emergency crowdfunding; the powers that be already lead the people astray by not coming out with the emergency, so if I hadn't my tablet I'd be royally pissed off08:03
tortoisedocentil : the powers that be already?08:03
entiltortoisedoc: the powers that be, some dude in the board or management or wherever who probably made a conscious decision to not tell the people that the company's hemorrhaging money and will not be able to deliver08:04
tortoisedocentil : heh08:04
tortoisedocentil : I'd rather say they had to buy back shares08:04
tortoisedocnothing surprising there08:04
entillike at the stage of "hey remember the igg? when it was obvious it wouldn't fund more than half a year of effort? well, the time's up and we had to switch hardware vendors, so we're sorry, we're fucked, and we're broke unless you pitch in more €€€"08:04
tortoisedoc:D08:05
birdzhangdjselbeck: I submitted my apps 12 days ago...still not approvaled :(08:05
entilbut instead they did something that's very hard to distinguish from a scam08:05
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tortoisedocentil : and that is?08:06
djselbeckbirdzhang: Mine just got approved after 12 days as well08:06
Helle_Stskeeps: on purpose, static linking by design only includes what code your program actually uses, remember, it was developed at a time where memory usage was severly constrained (and it tends to still be used in those cases08:06
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entiltortoisedoc: ... letting the people believe they'll get their tablets?08:06
lpotterhave they said you wont get your tablet?08:06
tortoisedocentil : where's that different from a scam? :P08:06
tortoisedocentil : where's that NOT different from a scam08:07
birdzhangdjselbeck: wow,next is mine :)08:07
entilusually when you take money for a promise and don't deliver it's somewhere between a lie and a scam, and what hurts here is that jolla is all about #unlike #community but did not come clean - bankruptcies are not surprises to the powers that be08:07
entillpotter: just recent .fi news that their bank account is empty - with the slight caveat that the newspaper might be blowing it out of proportion, but it's the biggest newspaper, not a tech blog08:07
lpotterso08:08
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Nicd-entil: but they're not bankrupt yet08:08
Nicd-they were in the middle of a financing round and it didn't go through08:08
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entilno, but good luck with emergency crowdfunding - if I didn't have my tablet I'd send a flaming bag of shit to whoever's in charge of business08:08
Nicd-I think they were betting on it going through normally08:08
tortoisedocNicd- : yes definitely08:08
lpotterso you have your tablet,, so what's your problem?08:09
entilI think that's the worst fucking thing you can do to people who actually want the #unlike #community to thrive08:09
entildisappointing and hurtful08:09
tortoisedocthey just made the mistake not to have a plan b08:09
Nicd-startups often don't have a plan b08:09
tortoisedocNicd- : indeed :)08:09
tortoisedocperhaps thats what makes them startups :P08:09
lpotterI'm fairly sure they have plan b08:09
Nicd-lpotter: is this the plan b? :P08:09
Hartzientil: Welcome to the real world. If there's no money left, then there isn't :P08:09
lpotterno, it's a hickup08:09
entilwell, I got mine, so I'm #unlike as ballz, but plan b is always the gullibility^Wkindness of the community if you actually interact with them08:10
tortoisedocHartzi : its not even that08:10
tortoisedocHartzi : there would be plenty of people ready to give money to jolla08:10
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tortoisedocHartzi : and jolla could have just kept pre sales of tablets open forever08:10
tortoisedocHartzi : and get more cash08:10
tortoisedocthere must be something else08:10
entilHartzi: that's not the problem, the problem is that when you don't communicate and suddenly are out of money it reads as "guess what, #community, we're #unlike because we got paychecks, and you didn't get shit, lol @ u"08:10
lpotteryou dont know what you are talking about08:11
lpotterand it's not that simple08:11
tortoisedoclpotter : who are you talking to now08:11
lpotterentil:08:11
* entil shrugs08:11
* tbr concurs, things are likely much more complicated08:12
lpotterthere's always more to the story than meets the eye08:12
entilwell sure, but what's wrong with status updates?08:12
narchie1#peoplePowdered08:12
tbrit's easy to point fingers and accuse people/companies based on limited knowledge08:12
lpotterwell.. maybe just maybe, it fell through at the last moment?08:12
entilyou got 12k backers, and a handful (afaik nothing's reported, except that it's not many) that's shipped, and there's been a year of time to send status updates08:13
pp_it's like a laptop with 5% battery... You could use it to check facebook and then you're completely screwed08:13
Tofetortoisedoc: against shares, ok, but otherwise it's not the role of the community08:13
entiltbr: that's why I'm limiting the blame to whichever unknown body decided it's best to wait until the last moment, because that's never a good idea, but it's usually some business suit making that call because they're not on eg. irc interacting with the people08:13
Hartzientil: propably the thing is the owner(s) haven't allowed Jolla to communicate more. Complaining like an idiot doesn't help Jolla perform better.. it just makes things worse.08:14
tortoisedocTofe: related to what?08:14
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tortoisedoc+1 Harzi08:14
tortoisedoc+1 Hartzi08:14
Tofetortoisedoc: related to giving money to Jolla :)08:14
entilHartzi: I'm beyond caring now :P I'll use my jolla phone and tablet until they die, and count my blessings I got the tablet, but I'm sorely disappointed in the owners08:14
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lpottermaybe they were legally bound to not give public detailed updates on financing talks08:14
entilif the intex phone ships, I'll consider that as well, because sailfish rules08:15
entillpotter: it's not related to financial talks or investment rounds; they could always have done another indiegogo08:16
tortoisedocTofe: jolla shop is out of stock; I still do wonder why jolla stopped pre-sell tablets?08:16
Stskeepsentil: you don't really start another indiegogo when you haven't delivered on the previous one08:16
Stskeeps::P08:16
tortoisedoc:D08:16
tortoisedoclolz08:16
entilprobably someone figured it's losing face to ask for more money, but on the other hand people probably undrestand changing the hw vendor is a huge thing and would be all about the community,08:16
zchydempuf.. it's easy to complain, but things are not so black and white. Also a person who is backer of any crowdfunding campaign should know that there is always a big chance of failure. Same as putting money on stocks08:16
entilStskeeps: there are projects that do that, and I've even chanced backing one08:16
tbrgee, this devolved to tmo-like levels quickly. time to shift atention.08:16
lpotterzchydem: +108:17
pp_yupyup... finnish companies can't even actually beg for money08:17
tortoisedoclolzers indeed tmo spirit is high here08:17
Nicd-yeah, the indiegogo money went to jolla hong kong08:17
Nicd-afaik08:17
entilzchydem: that's actually the truest thing, just wonder how many people of the 12k, or of kickstart/igg backers in general, really realize that they're gambling08:17
tbrlevel "don't confuse me with facts!"08:17
entilafaik igg works in finland if it's the type of campaign that refunds if it's not met08:18
entiland afaik kickstarter is not allowed in finland because you always lose your money08:18
entilbut this is not 100% sure facts, so take it as you will08:18
zchydementil: I've been wondering the same thing08:18
tortoisedocentil : this has been a gamble since day #1.08:19
tortoisedocwheres the news there :P08:19
entilthere's a part of me that goes along the lines of "a fool and his money shall soon be parted" and "it's your fault if you didn't read into it" but it's not often you can read on the campaigns or anywhere that "hey! remember! no refunds!"08:19
* lpotter is amazed that jolla got sailfish 2.0 out AND got x86 tablet up and ready08:20
entilespecially when you have to start using the funds to deliver, not collect it all first and then start08:20
entilyeah, lots of love to the tech people08:20
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zchydemlpotter: exactly that's been amazing thing and especially when knowing how few developers there are08:22
lpotterindeed08:22
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entilhave there been only a few? I thought jolla was pretty tech heavy08:22
narchie1#peoplePowered08:22
Stskeepsentil: not compared to 1000-2000 people efforts like tizen08:23
entilwasn't it like 100 people? so if a lot of those aren't in tech then I dunno what08:23
entilStskeeps: sure, of course08:23
Stskeeps120 = a mixup of care, business development, QA, developers, etc08:23
Stskeepsdesign08:23
lpotterStskeeps: or 1000's in Nokia :)08:23
entilI don't really know but isn't tizen also aimed at everything from cars to thermometers, so that kinda attenuates the need for tech people08:23
zchydemIIRC there was 1800 people working on MeeGo08:23
zchydemwhich included ~200 trolls08:24
pp_dunno if it has changed but tizen also is about selling mobile intel chips :-)08:24
Stskeepspp_: bwhaha. intel has long ago exited tizen in that regard08:24
Stskeeps:P08:24
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tortoisedocStskeeps : didnt they fork to some other distro? limobo or something?08:25
slettazchydem: is that with or without externals? :p08:25
pp_heh yea, looks like even IVI just died: http://download.tizen.org/releases/daily/tizen/ivi/latest/ (updated in January)08:27
tortoisedocpp_ : isnt that mantained by samsung internally?08:27
pp_intel used to have interest in that side (reference hardware is intel too)08:28
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zchydemsletta: Can't remember, but I believe it was with externals08:46
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lainwir3do/09:40
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pdanek2Hello, did Jolla officially say the reason of tablet delays please?09:58
ggabrielfinancial trouble?09:59
Nicd-not really09:59
Nicd-"Unfortunately, we have not been able to keep this timeline for wave 2. This can be attributed to various factors and simply the fact that we are still a start-up."09:59
pdanek2they didn't relate that to tablet shipping in their press release09:59
Nicd-just "various factors"09:59
pdanek2oh, ok09:59
pdanek2i see09:59
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pdanek2ibdiegogo doesn't give any assurances to buyers?10:00
Stskeepsyou're not a buer10:01
Stskeeps+y10:01
Nicd-yeah, crowdfunding is just funding10:01
pdanek2on kickstarter when project wasn't done10:01
pdanek2they offered me refund10:01
tbralso see the TC interview, tablet production/delivery is depending on acquiring funding10:02
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pdanek2so the tablet price on indiegogo was undervalued if it's not enough to fund the project10:04
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Nicd-pdanek2: at the same time with the tablet they closed over €10M funding10:06
Nicd-nobody would have bought the tablet at over 5 times the price :P10:06
djselbeckIt wouldn't be worth it10:06
Nicd-and again, Jolla really thought they would get more money in the latest financing (I think)10:07
Nicd-so it's not like they planned to run out of money from the start10:07
tbrmy guess is that the tablet was done roughly at cost (of hw and external engineering)10:08
pdanek2jolla should never think like that, funding on indiegogo itself should he calculated to be enough to ship all tablets right?10:08
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tbrthe cost of software is not really in it, maybe a fraction10:08
* tbr is highly amused by all the armchairing these days10:09
Nicd-jolla phone available again in the store10:10
Nicd-it seems10:11
Nicd-"Your Jolla will ship with all new Sailfish OS 2.0, which is released soon." :P10:11
Stskeepswe obviously didn't have money to pay for website updates :p10:11
birdzhang:D10:12
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pdanek2what about that deal with Russian government, is it still actual?10:13
Nicd-nothing heard about it10:14
Nicd-no news about sailfish secure either10:14
Stskeepswe presented at BRICS meeting of communications ministers, i'd say it's still on?10:14
Stskeeps:P10:14
Stskeepsquite recently10:14
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tortoisedocyeah Got Tablet-targeted SF2.0 - oh wait.. :P10:17
tortoisedoc*go10:17
tortoisedocdeh10:17
tortoisedocso basically10:17
tortoisedocwhat jolla did, is to sell tablets at a loss10:17
tortoisedocand was planning to back it up with enough investor money10:18
tortoisedoc=10:18
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tortoisedoc?10:18
tbrinteresting thought, does HADK contain everything (and licensing!) to create a tablet adaptation?10:18
tortoisedoctbr : i was wondering the same; could get the N110:18
Smarcouldn’t jolla just trick putin to fund jolla with some lure or something ;)10:19
tortoisedoc(which basically has the same specks)10:19
Stskeepstbr: you can stuff it on any tablet yes10:19
Stskeepsit's one codebase10:19
HartziSmar: trick putin? He could nuke Finland after that :P10:19
TemeVN1 is available somewhere?10:19
tortoisedocTemeV : China?10:20
SmarHartzi: is ”sell” better word? :P10:20
tbrStskeeps: yes, but are the tablet ux packages available? both in technical and legal terms10:20
Stskeepstbr: yes10:20
Stskeepstbr: one codebase.10:20
HartziSmar: much better10:20
SmarHartzi: also I don’t really think that would be feasible10:20
tortoisedocabout codebase10:20
SmarHartzi: to me sell is worse word :P10:20
tbrStskeeps: codebase is perpendicular to that question though10:20
HartziSmar: He's maniac. :P10:20
Stskeepstbr: yeah, but anyway, yes, they are10:20
tbr*nod*10:20
SmarHartzi: hence selling something with equal terms is bound to turn bad ;)10:20
StskeepsHADK implies non-commercial usage but i think that's fair10:20
tbrsure10:21
birdzhang¥1399.0010:21
TemeVtortoisedoc: so why bother when I could buy something that is more easily available10:21
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tortoisedocTemeV : its more close to jolla tablet? :P10:22
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Stskeepstbr: i have a wet dream to stuff it on https://developer.qualcomm.com/hardware/mdp-80510:22
Stskeeps:P10:22
tbr.oO(should have ordered that 90$ 6" tablet on aliexpress when it was cheap..."10:22
TemeVtortoisedoc: could be, though I don't see what difference does that make10:23
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tortoisedocStskeeps : https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/libcontentaction/blob/master/rpm/libcontentaction-qt5.spec version here is 0.2.310:23
Stskeepstortoisedoc: it's automatically updated by tar_git10:23
Stskeepsbased on the tag10:23
tortoisedocStskeeps : on device tho pkcon get-packages is 0.2.6?10:23
tbrStskeeps: that being a dev device it's probably insanely expensive10:23
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tbrStskeeps: also a 64bit 8xx series SoC could be interesting10:24
tortoisedocStskeeps : ok but is it latest-latest-hot-cake-from-owen? :)10:24
tbrwho's Owen? ;)10:24
Stskeepstbr: 800 usd yeah10:24
tbrnot as expensive as I thought :D10:24
TemeVunclde Owen?10:24
TemeV*uncle10:24
tortoisedoctbr : how many 0wen's are there10:24
tortoisedoc:D10:24
tbrobviously: Owen is a baker10:25
Stskeepstbr: or this monster: http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/21/exopcs-40-inch-multitouch-exodesk-is-coming-in-2012-for-1-299/10:25
tortoisedoc:D10:25
* tortoisedoc shrugs10:25
tortoisedocdamn innovation going the wrong wya10:25
tortoisedoc*way10:25
tbrStskeeps: I think in this size category I'd either go with a split or completely set up my own thing10:26
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tbrStskeeps: think touchscreen display or rear projection table10:26
* tbr looks at the huge glass pane with white backside and his 1080p projector and goes *hmmmmm*10:26
tbr(MSFT demonstrated this with some sort of camera tracking a while ago)10:27
tortoisedocStskeeps:reposted in #mer10:28
tortoisedoc(should have posted there in the first place deh)10:28
tbrStskeeps: if you want to play with such stuff, get a TORSBY or GLASHOLM table :)10:29
* tbr has a TORSBY acting as a white board, very nice hack10:30
SfietKonstantinWtbr: can you "draw" on that table ?10:32
tbrSfietKonstantinW: I use whiteboard markers, yes10:33
tbrnothing electronic about my current use case10:33
SfietKonstantinWah10:33
SfietKonstantinWso no screen under the glass to project something10:33
tbrI was saying thought that it would be easy to convert it10:33
SfietKonstantinWah10:33
SfietKonstantinWok10:34
SfietKonstantinWthought you already converted it10:34
tbrhttp://www.ikeahackers.net/2012/01/not-expensive-glass-whiteboard.html10:34
SfietKonstantinWwow nice10:35
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tbrif someone wants to sponsor me a TORSBY underframe and a mirror, then I'd be happy to make that experiment10:36
tbrhmm, looks like I'd have to remove 2 struts, oh well, still doable10:36
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tbrah, instructions show that the struts could be easily omitted10:39
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tbrso if someone feels like sending me 80€ + money for a mirror and maybe one of those tracker things the xbox has10:41
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tortoisedoctbr : ebay? :P10:42
tortoisedocwhy do you need a camera btw10:42
tbrtortoisedoc: input device, or do you have a good idea how else to do that?10:43
tortoisedocand btw, the kinect (xbox camera) only works at 24fps barely10:43
tortoisedocso you want to project on the whiteboard and use camera for motion detection?10:43
tbrtortoisedoc: no, that would be building one of those rear projection tables10:44
tortoisedocaha10:44
tortoisedocwe did some proof of concept with kinetic and oculus some time ago10:45
tortoisedocbut it worked like Sh*t because of the crappy quality of the kinetic camera10:45
the_mgtsomebody did inputtracking with a wii remote. and an ir pen. that doesnt help you much, I guess10:46
tortoisedochah a wiimote10:47
tbrIIRC the microsoft surface table (name?) used an IR camera mounted below the table next to the projector and could distinguish finger touches on the glass surface10:48
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Helle_yep, same as nearly every other touch table10:51
Helle_tbr: it btw was just called the Microsoft Surface10:51
Helle_which then got reused for the tablets10:51
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SfietKonstantinWtbr: the surface table was called "surface" before the surface was cool10:53
tbryes, it got rebranded to pixelsense, which was always the name of the sensor apparently10:53
SfietKonstantinWah10:54
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SfietKonstantinWname clashing is always good10:54
SfietKonstantinW...10:54
SfietKonstantinW(not)10:54
tortoisedocsurface is surface10:56
tortoisedocM$ cant copyright that:P10:56
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tbrI'm pretty sure they trademarked it though10:57
Helle_tbr: well, that's a fun trademark to try to uphold10:58
Helle_they have been referred to as "surface" since the first ones where hacked up10:58
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tbrdepends, if they used "microsoft surface" then it's easier10:58
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distHow many actually got their tablets?11:00
tbr100-200 is the guess11:01
distSo, about 13000 euros per tablet? (if only indiegogo is taken into account)11:02
SpeedEvilI did not get my tablet. I'm not 100% happy about it, but even if I don't, I consider it a worthwhile investment into open-source.11:03
tbrand about 2 apples per kiloparsec11:03
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the_mgtsdsd11:08
the_mgtsorry11:08
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tabaskois that hygrometer under back cover left from camera lens?11:21
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tabaskoI noticed mine has turned red :E11:21
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ggabrieltabasko: yes, that means that that was in contact with water11:23
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tabaskoggabriel: daymn :c11:23
tabaskowhy I did took it with me to sauna room11:24
SpeedEvilOr internal condensation11:24
Stskeepstabasko: or humidity detector11:24
ggabriellol11:24
ggabrielnever thought about taking the phone to the sauna11:24
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tbra very binary "peak hold" hygrometer if you insist on the term.11:26
ggabrieltabasko: but the phone works?11:26
Nicd-sauna?! :D11:27
Nicd-just... why11:27
ggabrielsaunas can be quite boring11:27
Nicd-the point is relaxation11:28
tabaskoggabriel: works mostly but it does have some random reboots and complains that it cant charge when plugged in11:28
Nicd-not browsing facebook11:28
ggabrieltabasko: put it in rice maybe11:28
tabaskomight be too late11:28
ggabrielNicd-: ouch, I should have never gone in with beer then :S11:28
ggabrielnever late to try :P11:28
tabaskoAnd no, I didnt take phone in actual sauna. Only room where you take your clothes off11:28
tabaskobut that was bit moist place too11:29
Nicd-ggabriel: many people would consider having a beer relaxing11:29
tabaskoggabriel: not good idea, beer gets hot and who likes hot beer11:29
ggabrielNicd-: ;); tabasko: this is why I got drunk very quickly then, by drinking the beer fast11:30
ggabrielanyway, do try rice,11:30
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PaulePanterLooks like, the date in the file name got tossed around: http://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/Jolla_press_release_20112015_FINAL_61.pdf11:37
StskeepsPaulePanter: CDN is acting up11:37
* tbr likes how that was written in ms-word and generated on osx...11:38
tbr(yeah, yeah, he's marketing, but still)11:38
* Stskeeps has a osx desktop, laptop and will kill himself if he has to use libreoffice for anything again.11:39
Stskeeps:P11:39
ggabrieltbr: I use linux and yet I need to use MS* stuff just to share with the world11:39
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tbrStskeeps: you have to admit, that it shouldn't be harder to get the same styling in lowriter than in word.app11:40
Stskeepstbr: it shouldn't be11:40
ggabrielone of my friends, who works in IT a lot, famours words: "apple products raise the quality of your work at no extra cost"11:41
PaulePanterStskeeps: Which LibreOffice version did you try last? Are you using Pages and Numbers?11:41
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StskeepsPaulePanter: no, i use microsoft word when i have to use that11:42
Stskeepsand libreoffice quite recent11:42
PaulePanterI see.11:42
Stskeepsand at same time i do OSS software.11:42
Stskeeps:P11:42
PaulePanterIn my opinion, that’s better than Pages and/or Numbers, as these formats are even more “incompatible” as DOC(X) stuff.11:42
* Stskeeps would really like the world to move to something like early-access.notion.so11:43
Stskeepser, http://early-access.notion.so11:43
the_mgtI do share the hatred for Libre Office11:45
noumeI like it how MS Office works better on Linux than libreoffice does...11:45
noumeit takes less RAM and gives better performance11:46
the_mgtLO is quite ok as a viewer, but the writing part kills me. be it the excel or word part11:46
PaulePanternoume: Using an emulator?11:47
noumeI'm using Codeweavers11:48
pp_office for mac <3 (except that it only seems to get "critical updates", and those are every few weeks)11:49
Nicd-LO could be heaps better (it has improved in the recent years though after the loooong stagnation under Sun), but I manage my basic writing tasks just fine11:50
Nicd-currently writing my thesis with it11:50
noumestill i'm curious about the future of Jolla and Sailfish OS. Is it likely that it will be fully released as OSS so the community may continue to work on it even if Jolla may eventually file bankrupt?11:50
Stskeepsnoume: i think it's a bit more unclear now that decisions has to be made together with creditors.11:50
noumeMethinks, Libreoffice has improved a ton after the fork but it stall has a long way to go11:51
pp_for thesis-like stuff latex is a winner imho11:51
rigoanybody a clue whether jolla continues to sell phones during protection?11:51
Stskeepsrigo: we do, it seems11:51
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rigo\o?11:51
rigo\o/11:51
pp_sold out, it seems11:51
noumeI've used scribus for heavy editing with some success. Results at least look much better than even with MS Word11:51
Stskeepsrigo: http://shop.jolla.com/eu_en/cat-jolla.html/11:51
pp_oh, they got more11:51
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noumeStskeeps: i have the best of wishes for the new financing round. Though SFOS has quite a few bugs still unadressed, it is quite ready for the market. Let's hope it will not fail in the hands of some shady investment company that kills it11:55
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noume*fall11:55
Stskeepslet's how the world turns out11:55
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Milo-oh come on. this guy knows how to solve the problem: https://together.jolla.com/question/122667/feedback-cost-cutting-funding-suggestions/12:03
Milo-Replace competent developers with fresh graduates from indian universities!12:03
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Milo-Also, you got to stop paying any money to your managers until further notice!12:04
* Stskeeps ponders to go downstairs to buy some beer12:05
cehtehjolla management/board/whatever will now *exactly* look at TJC for advices how to proceed :D12:07
cehtehanyway i'd like the idea if jolla becomes a cooperative where people can buy in .. as long they get heared when they vote on something12:08
tbrStskeeps: it's always beer-o-clock - somewhere12:09
Milo-You can't mention indians without thinking about IPA.12:10
Stskeepstbr: well, it's unclear who would enforce a company alcohol policy at this point :p12:10
* trigpoint likes an IPA12:11
tbrStskeeps: also if you are on HOC, when are you on the clock? ;)12:11
Stskeeps(HOC?)12:11
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tbrHome Office Connection12:11
Stskeepsah, yeah12:11
tbrold Nokia term12:11
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tortoisedoctabasko : try a hairdryer12:25
tortoisedocStskeeps : rum, not beer, RUM12:28
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tortoisedocjust wondering, do we have then a doomsday now in december12:29
tortoisedocto refer to12:29
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tortoisedocfor jolla to definitely shut the doors (*shrug*) or keep on running?12:29
tbrtortoisedoc: those indicators are usually irreversible. As they are meant to indicate if something _ever_ was moist.12:30
lainwir3dtortoisedoc: or whisky !12:31
tortoisedoctbr : huh? Why would you put such a thing in a device?12:31
tortoisedoclainwir3d : damn no RUm for starters!12:31
tbrtortoisedoc: "warranty void if this label is pink"12:32
tortoisedoclolz12:32
tortoisedocof course12:32
lainwir3dwell, anything you prefer for starters :-)12:32
* tortoisedoc facepalsm12:32
lainwir3dI like both anyway12:32
tortoisedocsounds like a deal! Where do we meet for the rum :D12:32
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tbrtortoisedoc: apple was infamous for having very sensitive indicators at some point. the ambient sweat in your pocket was supposedly enough to set some of them off12:33
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tortoisedocheh; how to fuck customers #1 eh12:33
tortoisedocapologies for the sillogism12:33
lainwir3d:)12:35
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pdanek2Micromax should soon release 4G memory phone, their new flagship called Yu Yutopia.12:40
pdanek2GB*12:40
pdanek2With Cyanogen.12:40
Devaux1Xiaomi Mi4c is on sale12:41
pdanek2Sailfish was supposed to be the Intex's answer to Micromax <> Cyanogen cooperation.12:41
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tortoisedocpdanek2 : so not anything small12:43
pp_tbr: I cleaned the screen of a macbook air, display broken, not covered by applecare due to moisture... meh12:44
tbryah, fun12:44
tortoisedocyou wish12:45
tortoisedocwife bought lumia 85012:45
tortoisedoc90€12:45
tortoisedocthree weeks screen cracks in her pocket12:45
tortoisedocrepair was either 140€ for repair, or 40 € shipping only (in case they pay the part)12:45
tortoisedocseller told to buy new phone12:46
tortoisedocwtf12:46
pp_purchase protection insurance with credit card has been useful, for 6 months you get money back (-40e) for anything like that12:47
tortoisedocpp_ : aha12:47
tortoisedocthanks for the hint12:47
tortoisedocbut is ppi something extra you have ontop of the card?12:48
pp_finnish banks often have it (mine is op, nordea used to have even better conditions)12:48
fluxwas it in her back pocket, perchance :P12:54
tortoisedocthat's not what I said :P12:55
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fluxyou didn't discount that alternative either ;-)13:03
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tortoisedocflux : now that's what you said :P13:07
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trigpointcredit cards have purchase protection, but its not valid if the payment goes through paypal13:30
tortoisedoctrigpoint : how about bank cards?13:30
trigpointnot debit cards, only credit13:30
tortoisedocogh13:34
tortoisedocor, o great help then :P13:34
tortoisedocone reason to buy with cc i guess13:34
trigpointit is, the main reason i have one13:35
trigpointbut you loose the protection if you use paypal13:36
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ggabrielwell, depends13:38
ggabrielsometimes paypal is the payment provider, in which case you don't lose anything13:38
trigpointpaypal is ok for small stuff as cc protection only comes in, in the uk at least, at gbp10013:38
citylight2did anyone try to run sailos on nexsus 5x?13:39
ggabrielyou lose protection if you use paypal's account, which can get money from your bank account, credit card, debit card, etc..13:39
trigpointhttp://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/PayPal-Section7513:40
trigpointso if buying something like jolla, pay by cc, not paypal13:41
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tortoisedoccc?13:43
tortoisedocah credit card :D13:44
trigpoint:)13:44
fluxdoesn't paypal provide protection as well?13:45
fluxoh, right, the link covers those protections :)13:46
tortoisedocwell paypal has their own protection system13:46
tortoisedocand terms13:46
tortoisedocthis world is becoming a terms world13:46
tortoisedocyes but only IF and IF and IF and IF13:46
tortoisedocwtf13:46
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fluxwell, it's partially because some people try to scam as much as they can. so they try to plug each loop hole.13:47
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tortoisedocflux : it was meant in general13:53
tortoisedocnot only specific to paypal13:53
fluxI think it's also true in general :-)13:53
tortoisedocflux : you are missing the point; the idea of this whole thing is about being free; and here we are excluding one by one, incrementing limits :P13:56
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tortoisedoc*one by one possible ways to handle14:04
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ggabrieltortoisedoc: paypal's "protection" system is a joke14:05
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pdanekDo you think tablets was good idea?14:09
Stskeepssure14:10
pdanekOr Jolla should have rarther invested in new phone?14:10
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tortoisedocI think given the feedback on the tablet its a more viable way than phones14:11
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Lieke_my jolla phone still works nicely, so i wouldn't have bought a new phone14:11
M4rtinK_phone_well, I'm not so sure in retrospect14:11
Stskeepswe wouldn't have gotten the sailfishos 2.0 attention w/o it14:11
dr_gogeta86Stskeeps, not enough ...14:12
dr_gogeta86peps want money ..14:12
M4rtinK_phone_giiven that the end goal still seems to be lcensing to phone manufacturers14:12
M4rtinK_phone_the os might not as flexible, x86 and tablet ready14:13
M4rtinK_phone_but might have have been more polshed14:13
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pdanekI'm wondering.15:04
pdanekWindows Phone became more gesture based, iOS too, Blackberry is long time...15:05
pdanekWhy Android didn't become gesture based yet?15:05
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ggabrielios gesture based? windows phone? what are those buttons for then? :P15:10
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coderusW10M gesture based, wutthe only gesture i know is for switching panes15:15
coderusbut its not the gesture, just swipe15:15
ggabrielok, technically, tapping the touchscreen is a gesture15:16
coderuslockscreen unlock swipe, which used everywhere15:16
coderustapping is an action in this world15:16
coderusgesture is movement15:16
coderustouch/pointer click is never became a gesture :D15:17
ggabrielaccording to the dictionary, gesture is an action (among other things)15:17
ggabrielaction with the body, even15:17
coderustechnical dictiouary about UI/UX terms? :P15:17
ggabrielso, yeah, all mobile os's are gesture based15:17
ggabrielui/ux can't have their own dictionary :P15:17
coderussure it can15:17
ggabrielbut i'm being cynical ofc15:18
ggabrielios is as gesture based as my shower15:18
coderusbut well, any mobile os have flickables, pinch areas and etc, so yes, all is gesture based :)15:18
twaapohey, is there a reference for fingerterm gestures somewhere?15:18
coderuslast not gesture based os was WM6.5 with stylus, where you need to tap small scrollbar buttons, etc15:18
ggabrieltwaapo: only up/down/left/right that I know of? or you mean how to configure them?15:19
twaapothats a plus15:19
ggabrielthere's documentation somewhere15:19
ggabrieltried tjc?15:19
twaapolike it sends alt+left if i tap at rightside+leftside15:19
twaapoi think?15:19
twaapodunno whats a tjc15:20
twaapoah15:20
ggabrieltogether.jolla.com15:20
twaapothat tjc15:20
twaapo:D15:20
twaapowell i tried google several times during the last year or so15:20
ggabrielthat's why you fail15:21
ggabrieldon't use google15:21
twaapohehe15:21
ggabrielfwiw https://github.com/nemomobile/fingerterm15:21
ggabrielI cannot remember where I read how to configure it15:21
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twaapodid you find a reference for the hex code things for ctrl+ stuff too? \xwhatever?15:22
twaapoi think i did as well actually but lost it15:22
ggabrieli normally get the hex code from this X sniffer15:23
ggabrielwhat was the name again :P15:23
ggabrielxev15:24
ggabrielbut then I had issues and somebody said what to do15:24
ggabrielI think I used tmo for help too15:24
twaapoah yea i meant the \\e[] stuff in the fingerterm settings.ini for gestures15:24
twaapohmm15:24
twaapothats like pgdown tho15:24
ggabrielok, so you now know/remember more than I do :D15:25
twaapoi remember that one bit cause i changed it like year ago15:26
twaapostill dont know how some of the gestures work tho :D15:26
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* SkyFall keeps refreshing jolla blog and jolla.com/press rapidly after being told jolla may close16:57
r0kk3rzim sure we will hear one way or another16:58
Stskeepsnot dead.16:59
M4rtinK_phone_SkyFall: so it is *your* fault the sky is falling! ;-)17:00
SkyFallI knew chosing that nick will pay off, but didn't know when xD17:01
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daitheflueach time you refresh, the communication is delayed for another 2 weeks :P17:05
r0kk3rzthat meme just doesn't want to die does it :p17:06
MikaelaHow about using RSS feed which it most likely has?17:07
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daitheflur0kk3rz: of course it doesn't, it's a meme ;)17:07
ggabrielMikaela: need money for that :P17:10
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Mikaela?17:11
ggabrielrss feed17:11
Nicd-SkyFall: https://blog.jolla.com/feed/17:12
r0kk3rzevery refresh gets jolla 0.00001€ more into debt17:12
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Nicd-r0kk3rz: in that case they have made some really shitty deals with their hosting providers :P17:13
ggabrielarguably you can always refresh the rss feed a zillion times17:13
MikaelaI have never heard of paid RSS feeds17:13
MikaelaOr was that the joke?17:13
daithefluMikaela: I guess ggabriel was joking :)17:14
ggabrielMikaela: nah, I proposed that jolla would need money to implement rss feed in their blog, but then I didn't know they already had one17:14
MikaelaOh17:14
ggabrieltime to add to tidings, since i'm here17:14
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MorpogAnyone can tell me latest sailfishos tablet relase number? So I can update to it via version --dup18:33
MorpogI fear the servers get offline....18:34
eugenioit should be the same of the phone, I guess18:36
eugenio2.0.0.1018:36
Morpogeugenio, that I have already, I'm speaking about unreleased stuff18:36
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eugeniooh, AFAIK there aren't unreleased releases floating around in public18:37
coderusMorpog: no EA yet, due to jolla problem, you know18:44
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Morpogcoderus, well I thought, maybe someone pushed it accidentally on his last working hours there :D18:50
TemeVif they have something to push there...18:52
TemeVsomething even closely stable I mean18:52
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coderusshould be18:54
coderusbut i'm afaraid the person responsible for ea is laid off :D18:54
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pp_2.0.1.3 or whatnot was mentioned on some mailing list, but there's no public repo for it :P19:04
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coderusit's some internal release19:14
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cehtehoh phones are back in stock19:53
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Aciidahahh these people planning again against jolla in the blog20:04
Aciiddidn't they read that they funded jolla hk20:05
Aciidnot jolla fi20:05
Aciid"Can all of us almost 12000 backers or less make an online signing campaign and submit it to the Finnish Authorities, Indiegogo, Paypal for action against Jolla? Any advice would be welcome & if someone from Finland can give more inputs about local laws, that would be great"20:05
Aciid:DDD20:05
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kimmoliIGG style crowdfunding is already against finnish laws20:08
tbrthat's why jolla hk20:09
Aciidyes I think they knew what they were doing :D20:09
Aciidbut the haters are not catching up20:09
cehtehhow much did they collect so far?20:10
Aciid2.5mil€ from IGG20:10
Aciidand something undisclosed via pre-orders20:10
cehtehnot that bad20:10
phlixi_its pretty useless to fight for some of ou r money if jolla doesnt deliver20:10
phlixi_if there is no money left, then there is no money left...20:11
Aciidthey can just pull the plug if something would really build up20:11
Aciidfinnish custom20:11
Aciid"oh debt collectors, better go bankrupt20:11
phlixi_...and a cause will not generate more money (actually it would burn)20:11
Aciidbut in neckbeard logic it's completely the opposite20:11
Aciidin neckbeard logic, you file a lawsuit against something then all your friends join, you sue for well something since you want that tablet20:12
Aciidbecause it has caused you a ) bodily harm b ) anxieity20:12
phlixi_such neckbeard has tro be pretty stupid20:13
phlixi_has to be20:13
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Aciidand surely it ends up like pistorius, all televizd and youll be a celebrity afterwards!!!20:13
phlixi_well20:13
phlixi_that sounds, i dont have words for such idiotic stuff20:14
phlixi_preeeety silly20:14
phlixi_or just dumb as fuck20:14
cehtehcustomer support got layed of first? .. i send a mail yesterday about my return/refund (asking about postponing it) and got no reply today :>20:14
Aciidbut thats whats going down at blog.jolla.com comments :D20:14
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phlixi_i guess those "neckbeards" (what is that actually?) are immune to logic20:16
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kimmolialso all the post igg pre-orders are by Jolla Mobile Ltd (HK). only phones are by Jolla Ltd/Oy (FI) eventhough they almost share same webshop20:21
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sakustarso anyone got a jollablet in finland?20:25
kimmoli\o/20:25
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sakustarid like a swipe please20:27
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Shinryuuis it possible to do mac filtering with tethering?21:52
tbrhuh, why would you need that?21:53
Shinryuuwell, I just want to experiment with somehing21:53
phlixi_e.g. to prevent a device from automatically (trying) to connect21:53
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tbrlook at arptables21:55
Shinryuuoki!21:55
tbryou'll likely have to build modules or the kernel and the user space management binaries21:56
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phlixi_my android support kinda randomly stopped working (didnt install anything or the like)22:03
phlixi_any ideas how to fix? searching tjc turned up various threads suggesting reinstall of android support and apps...22:04
phlixi_...unfortunately that didnt work22:04
phlixi_if possible i would like to not do a factory reset22:06
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