#jollamobile log for Wednesday, 2015-12-02

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Stskeepsgoood morning07:00
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cfb014Good morning07:06
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Stskeepsneat: https://blog.jolla.com/road-sailfish-os-2-0/07:25
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cfb014Thank you for sharing07:36
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locusfwhy no twitter notification?07:40
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locusfwell lol joona just tweeted it07:40
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stephgcool07:53
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Nokius_work:)08:25
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citylight2as of yesterday, I see both phones are out of stock in the shop08:46
citylight2so in fact jolla has closed shop for now?08:47
Nicd-they were out of stock before and then cam back again08:47
Nicd-came*08:47
Nicd-so don't take that as any indicator08:47
pp_yup, obviously things may be slow08:47
citylight2are they even offering the tablet in their shop?08:47
Nicd-no08:48
pp_and you really want to use a credit card etc. and be sure you get your money back if it never ships08:48
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Nicd-obviously they are not selling tablets if they can't deliver the old ones either08:48
citylight2I still think that if they would offer a battery, at almost any cost, I would order one08:49
TemeVcitylight2: And I'm quite sure if they would offer a babbery at almost any cost that anyone is willing to pay, they would sell it with a loss08:50
TemeV*battery08:50
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Scelt_https://blog.jolla.com/road-sailfish-os-2-0/09:41
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FireFlyHmmmm, the thing that has changed the most is #busy indicators09:49
Nicd-errrrr09:52
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Nicd-http://insalgo.com/en/products/aidlab09:52
Nicd-"Aidlab changes your Jolla into medical phone. "09:52
Teguo_O09:52
Nicd-"We expect to start sending devices in the mid 2016."09:52
Nicd-seems to be really bad timing for them :P09:53
Hartziwtf09:53
Hartziwtf is that09:53
Teguit's a TOH09:53
tbrthey posted on reddit...09:53
Yanielthat's a bold move09:53
kimmolinice to see a commercial toh09:54
tbrand it's nothing new. Benefon anyone? (a finnish phone company no less!)09:54
Teguthe first commercial TOH! woo!09:54
Tegu..slow09:54
Nicd-Hartzi: seems to be an OH that shows your temperature, ECG, PPG and oxygen level09:54
Stskeepsmonitor your blood pressure while you wait angrily for your jolla tablet?09:54
Tegu:D09:54
Tegustill waiting on mid 201609:54
Hartzihopefully they also sell the phone too :D otherwice thay have no market when release09:55
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tbrhttp://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/benefon-track-makes-a-platform-for-vitaphones-new-cardiophone-service-introduced-at-the-medica-exhibition-in-dusseldorf-155747035.html09:55
tbr2000!09:55
Nicd-$19909:56
Nicd-that OH is pretty pricey09:56
tbrToH before it was cool: https://86.img.avito.st/1280x960/477210586.jpg09:57
kimmoli:)09:59
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HartziNicd-: TOH only?10:01
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Nicd-yes10:01
Nicd-it seems10:01
sakustarwhy do some people have cold hands10:02
sakustarif your fingers are used for measurements10:03
pp_i'd guess bt dongle for ios and android would make much more money :(10:04
HartziNicd-: toh + phone could have been reasonable price10:04
tbrit's a niche product, it has to be priced for low volume10:05
tbreven more so as there aren't that many jolla's anyway10:05
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pp_then again, people with jollas will buy niche products for just about any amount :-)10:05
Hartzitbr: yeah10:05
pp_preorder too!10:05
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tbrI'd actually be surprised if they would make a profit at that price point10:06
Hartzimaybe it's not supposed to make big profits. Just a test product or something like that.10:07
kimmolithere is also glucose meter cover for iphone, in igg or kickstarter10:07
Hartzikimmoli: same company?10:07
kimmoliiirc no10:07
Hartzitoo bad they're making toh so late.10:09
Hartzitwo years too late10:09
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tortoisedocheh yeah10:10
Yanielpp_: you make us sound like hipsters10:10
tortoisedocwell probably they got the idea just recently10:10
sakustarYaniel: are you saying youre not a hipster10:22
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tbrany idea if a not responding camera module could be helped by a recovery? CSD on my friend's phone says "csd not responding" when testing the back camera, front works.13:29
coderustbr: ping msameer probably13:33
* tbr ponders if care still does RMA or if that also halted13:34
Stskeepstbr: dmesg?13:34
tortoisedoctbr : some contact? Throw it against the wall? (joke)13:37
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tbrStskeeps: I'll bring it up again, once I have it and had a look myself. He's currently traveling.13:48
Stskeepsnod13:48
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tbrStskeeps: http://www.mbsks.franken.de/tmp/dmesg.txt - he managed to get it out14:00
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Stskeepsnothing directly obvious..14:01
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louisdkI really hope Jolla will make it. I really think we should contact every major IT company especially Digia.15:26
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fedyahowdy15:30
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fedyaGuys please explain me how Merproject connected with sailfishos?15:34
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christoph_dohi! do I take https://github.com/urodoz/sailfish-runner/blob/master/docker/runner/runner-base/Dockerfile correct and a sailfish OS can run inside docker on plain linux?17:02
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Nicd-louisdk: we don't have the authority to contact other IT companies on behalf of Jolla17:09
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tbrchristoph_d: looks like a docker for running on Sailfish. so the other way around.17:13
tbrchristoph_d: you'd need to contact the author to inquire about things. looking at the readme could help too.17:14
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christoph_dthe thing I'm really wondering is how much sailfish OS does depend on binder and other android-kernel-specifics17:15
Stskeepsit doesn't, it's the drivers that does17:16
Stskeepsas in, the ones matching the device17:16
christoph_dwhich doesn't matter if mainline linux does have the right drivers \o/17:17
Stskeepswell, this is userland crap17:18
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rigoStskeeps: but hasn't jolla native drivers on their own hardware?17:28
Stskeepsrigo: no, sadly - i have a blog post somewhere about that problem17:28
rigo:((17:28
rigook, everything done in a hurry...17:28
Stskeepswell, not even about a hurry17:29
Stskeepsit was a pure necessit17:29
Stskeepsy17:29
Stskeepshttps://blog.jolla.com/jolla-tablet-hardware-adaptation-team-day-zero-bootstrapping/17:30
rigotechnical?17:30
ggabrielthank google17:30
Stskeepsrigo: we tried the 'native drivers' game with ST-Ericsson as one of the few companies that still had them; they eventually bankrupted17:30
christoph_dwell. noone could reasonably ask jolla to just fix up the vendor SOC support package themselves and mainline it17:31
Stskeepstechnical and organisational to some degree17:31
Stskeepschristoph_d: some things were just beyond repair, too17:31
* rigo is reading17:31
StskeepsIMHO, native drivers for mobile devices died with nokia17:31
phlixi_oat the same time the usual android fanboy praises the openess of android all the time17:33
ggabrielbut but it is open source!17:33
phlixi_okinda sad/tragic17:33
ggabrieli'm sure there's a trunk somewhere where you can commit stuff and it comes in the next version of android, right?17:33
phlixi_oand then "jolla crap not fully open source, get android, aosp!1111"17:33
rigoThe key moment: "We do not have the capacity to write native Sailfish OS drivers for many parts of the devices." I had a different perception of the amount of control and the expertise in the jolla team17:35
Stskeepsrigo: in practice the moment you start doing that, your workforce becomes, let's say, like nokia's did, OMAP-focused17:36
rigoand given that, it is amazing how fast SailfishOS still is, despite the overhead by android drivers17:36
Stskeepsyou have no idea how great it is to have stable, known working drivers for delivering a customer device17:36
the_mgtI think it is partly due to the "asian mentality". Even if they would release linux drivers for their hardware, they would be broken beyond usable.17:36
Stskeepsthe_mgt: heh, western is even just as bad17:36
the_mgtI have had years of frustration with VIA products17:36
Stskeepsso we do what we're good at, core OS, UI and leave hardware drivers to the chipset vendor and ODM17:37
the_mgtI own two Epia boards and had a lenovo S12 netbook with fullblown via chipset, cpu and gpu, etc17:37
Stskeepswonder where i gave my epia board to..17:37
the_mgtand even when via released drivers, they would only be working with one certain distro, and one random kernel. and only on a fullmoon on a february 29th17:38
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rigoStskeeps: sure, but was it sufficient for the type of stuff you wanted to do? And was it fast enough? Your blog post was about opensource.  2 weeks ago I was at the ETSI summit telling them why their specs don't work with open source. I think the low layers are not for open source as there is no business model around it unless you're teh chip maker17:39
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rigothe chipmaker (like Intel)17:39
Stskeepsrigo: basically part of our expertise is being able to leverage android drivers; which is working as we can generally use the same HAL interfaces on all platforms17:40
Stskeepsrigo: hardware adaptation is a nasty, nasty area for open source, still :/17:40
christoph_danother question: is there a way to get at the sailfish OS emulator image without the IDE and other SDK stuff?17:41
Stskeepschristoph_d: not atm17:41
Stskeepsit's kinda boring without the SDK, too17:41
rigoStskeeps: And I believe that the hardware drivers (even on SailfishOS) should not be open source, but cater to a well defined API17:42
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Stskeepsrigo: that they do; which we leverage17:42
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rigoHa!, the rest, I don't care. I was only wondering about the performance of the android drivers vs nativ drivers17:43
Stskeepsthe best thing about android drivers is that they managed to get most BSPs out there to adhere to a similar API (https://source.android.com/devices/halref/dir_6b11132f1a015b03f2670f21bef1d871.html )17:43
rigonative linux drivers17:43
Stskeepswell, i don't know, but for wayland, it doesn't matter a lot17:43
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Stskeepsit matters more that we can trust the drivers to work17:43
rigosure, if it works, ok. Problem is then, if you grow, the competition will alter the drivers to kill you17:44
Stskeepsonly by shooting themselves in the foot17:44
Stskeepsit makes their life so much harder to not follow android HAL17:44
rigofor the moment, jolla is still under the radar, so no worries17:44
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Stskeepsubuntu touch uses a similar method, too17:45
rigoStskeeps: Android HAL will be changed so that it doesn't fit your needs anymore. That's what I mean17:45
rigo seen it too many times17:45
Stskeepsthat's naturally true, but you'd be surprised how many drivers rely on android acting exactly as it does :P17:45
rigothis is why we are in a monopoly situation where one actor controls too much, but doesn't use the controls at this very moment17:46
Stskeepsrigo: generally unless android want to piss on every single chipset vendor, they don't toy with those parts :P17:46
Stskeepson.. or off, i guess both applies17:47
phlixi_oprobably compareable to windows, on desktop, right? they have to build w9x support into nt, xp support for vista etc... and while the new driver model is new, the vendors have to support the old system as well...17:47
rigoso if jolla grows again, they have to take into account that they have to own their hardware platform at some point in time and budget for it17:47
phlixi_othus there is time to adapt HAL17:47
rigophlixi_o: not if they want to kill you17:48
Stskeepsrigo: basically android relies on AOSP for chipsets to do their work17:49
Stskeepsso those things have to be public17:49
phlixi_oif you think through this as if sailfish would work with xp drivers and it is 2005. you have now 10 years, to work with vista drivers17:49
Stskeepsand the driver model is defined in AOSP17:49
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Stskeepschipset vendors, that is17:49
phlixi_othe only thing to kill jolla via HAL is HAL2, which would a major issue for a lot more players than jolla is an issue17:50
phlixi_othat kinda makes not much sense17:51
Stskeepsand in general what we leverage in android drivers is so essential for any basic operations with GPUs..17:51
Stskeeps:P17:51
rigook, maybe you're safe :)17:51
Stskeepsgiven it a lot of thought17:51
Stskeeps:P17:51
phlixi_oits like as if as a rabbit you care about getting killed by aliens...17:51
phlixi_o...you probably will get eaten the next 10 minutes by someone, or poisened by some other17:52
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phlixi_o...not saying jolla is a rabbit :D17:52
phlixi_owell, gn8 :-)17:53
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pdanekHas anyone seen TMavica recently? :D18:57
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r0kk3rz!seen TMavica18:58
merbotr0kk3rz: TMavica was last seen in #jollamobile 3 days, 3 hours, 40 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <TMavica> Will Jolla HK office move too?18:58
r0kk3rzmerbot sees all18:59
merbotr0kk3rz: Error: "sees" is not a valid command.18:59
pdanekr0kk3rz: thanks!18:59
pdanekAre new phones usually announced or released on CES or on MWC?19:04
rigomerbot r0kk3rz?19:04
merbotrigo: Error: "r0kk3rz?" is not a valid command.19:04
rigohm, doesn't remember people and naughty remarks...19:05
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rigopdanek: that is one event where you would do such announcements.19:05
rigoto get sufficient attention19:06
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pdanekrigo: but which is more likely, CES or MWC?19:06
pdanekin general19:06
rigoMWC, definitely19:06
pdanekright19:06
rigoCES is for TVs :)19:06
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phlixi_but ces is earlier19:25
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pdanekTime for Bob Ross.20:44
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nanderHi, I'm working with a friend on a yowsup to IRC conversion system21:56
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nanderSo you can run a server which connects to what'sapp for you and uses an IRC system for you to connect to21:57
r0kk3rzthat sounds backwards21:58
r0kk3rzi can understand forwarding irc over whatsapp, but whatsapp over irc?22:00
r0kk3rzxmpp might be a better tech to use for that22:00
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tbrr0kk3rz: bitlbee has its use cases too22:01
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tbralso IRC rocks22:01
r0kk3rzit does, but its not amazing over unreliable connections such as mobile22:02
r0kk3rzwhich is what whatsapp is good for22:02
tbrmosh is22:02
r0kk3rzyeah which means you must use irssi22:03
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tbror one of the other clients22:03
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phlixi_so you want to make a whatsap transport and a bouncer22:34
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nanderphlixi_:  basically, yes22:55
nanderAnd, combined with pushbullet support it works quite well22:55
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