#jollamobile log for Friday, 2015-12-04

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tortoisedocso jolla party on next thursday? :)09:04
mornfallwhat party?09:04
tortoisedocjust a party :P09:05
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TofeOh, Oh, Oh...09:07
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Stskeepsnaturally this is where people swim in money from the tablets09:08
Stskeeps:P09:08
mornfallwhat tablets? :P09:09
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pdanekhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLO7tCdBVrA09:13
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mornfallpdanek: ...09:17
giucami prefer swimming in tablets09:20
pdanek:D09:22
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tortoisedocswimming in tablets might be....challengin?09:25
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plfioriniif only the money was spent on the tablet... rather than sfos209:35
Stskeepsplfiorini: i really don't understand that argument though09:36
TemeVplfiorini: you do realize, there would be no tablet without sfos209:36
TemeV?09:36
Stskeepsto some degree, investment money has been used for tablet, and some tablet money has been used on sf2.0, the cash flows are never clear cut09:36
Stskeepsat some point cash flow stops and everything falls apart09:37
TemeVso tablet money was kind of "borrowed" for sw development :)09:37
plfioriniTemeV: what was wrong with sfos1?09:37
Stskeepsas a start, it simply didn't perform on a 2K display09:37
Stskeepsit was generally rejected by sales channels and users09:38
Stskeepsit was very portrait only09:38
mornfallsfos2 is still very portrait only09:38
Stskeepssfos1 is even worse09:39
Stskeepsnot to mention a lot of scaling issues09:39
Stskeepsyou build a product nowadays combined hw and sw, else you'd all run around with phone hardware at 30 USD price (from factory)09:39
mornfalldoesn't really make much of a difference... all the UI that matters in the OS is locked in portrait mode09:40
mornfallwhich makes navigation in landscape impossible09:40
mornfallso yes, you can landscape an app, but to switch to another you have to flip to portrait, etc.09:40
plfiorinidunno i'm just wondering if with less investment on the OS we would have tablets in our hands09:40
Stskeepsplfiorini: i highly doubt it09:40
Stskeepsplfiorini: there was a lot of hw adaptation work done as well09:40
Stskeepsgraphics pipeline optimizations09:41
Stskeepsetc09:41
mornfallbut yes, I get the point, sfos1 is bad, sfos2 is still bad but there isn't enough $$$ to make it better anyway09:41
mornfall(at doing landscape, at least)09:41
Stskeepspeople seem to forget sfos 1.0.0 :P09:41
plfiorinii don't, it's still way better than this android shit i'm using now09:41
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mornfallStskeeps: well, being entirely portrait-locked is at least consistent :P09:42
pp_aka. "update to sailfish 1.0.2.5 os"09:42
mornfallwhatever, the question now is whether there will be any sfos at all09:42
pp_or does it go to 1.0.4, can't remember :-)09:42
Yanielah the nostalgia09:43
mornfallmaybe I should go back to gadgetless09:43
mornfallI guess it was pretty OK09:43
mornfalland my gadget budget is tied up in that jolla tablet anyway :P09:43
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Stskeepsin the end you can't sell a tablet without any OS installed, to the amount of backers we had09:46
Stskeepsor completely broken09:46
mornfalltechnically, you aren't selling it anymore at that point09:47
Stskeepsok, wrong word09:47
lainwir3dhuh... wait.. what ?09:50
lainwir3dwhat's wrong with sailfish os 2 in landscape ?09:50
lainwir3dfeels pretty good on my tablet09:50
* Stskeeps ponders some more coffee09:50
mornfalllainwir3d: well, it doesn't work on the phone then09:50
mornfallmaybe it's a different build09:50
lainwir3dyeah, I think it's locked on the phone09:51
mornfallalso, fuck off with your tablet :)09:51
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lainwir3dmaybe because the screen is too small09:51
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lainwir3dbut I garanty you that on the tablet except for a few pages everything can be used in both portrait and landscape09:51
lainwir3dmornfall: haha sorry :-D09:51
giucamyeah, on the tablet it's much more landscapey than on the phone09:52
mornfallno it can't, because there is no tablet09:52
mornfallso well ...09:52
lainwir3dwant a picture ? :P I use it everyday :P09:52
lainwir3dI still can't believe how lucky I am09:52
mornfallyeah, who would have thought it was a lottery09:52
lainwir3dlol09:53
mornfallwon a tablet worth 160k$ or so :)09:53
mornfallhow many are there?09:53
mornfallmaybe it's just 16k$09:53
* mornfall can't remember09:53
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Yanielhmm my jolla randomly forgets how to resolve urls10:50
Yanielspecifically on 4g10:50
ggabrieldefine "resolve urls"10:50
ggabrielyou mean dns lookups?10:51
Yanielyes10:51
ggabrielthat could be your carrier tho10:51
ggabrielI remember once or twice having to hack /etc/resolv.conf10:51
ggabrieland it was obviously a temporary problem10:51
YanielI can ping ip addresses fine but any hostname just times out with "host not found"10:51
ggabrieljust add 4.2.2.2 in /etc/resolv.conf10:52
Yanielhaven't had problems with wlan though10:52
ggabrielthere's a plus side, if it's a carrier issue10:52
Yanielwhat's that?10:52
FireFlyWhat DNS server is that?10:52
ggabrielit's a dns server that works10:52
ggabrielsome people discourage usage and prefer google's (8.8.8.8)10:52
FireFlyI usually go with Google's--4.4.8.810:52
ggabrielbut I don't like google10:52
ggabrielyeah, google is bad though10:52
ggabrielbut anyway, Yaniel, happened to me a few times, nothing to do with jolla I think10:53
Yanielvery possible10:53
ggabrielI did have a very pleasant internet experience then though10:53
SQUelcher4.2.2.2 is redirecting to a spam "search helper" page on unknown domains..10:53
ggabrielas all fanbois/fandroids had the same issue but they didn't have a terminal with root :P10:53
ggabrielSQUelcher: huh? I mean dns10:54
Nicd-shouldn't use 4.2.2.210:54
Nicd-it's for level 3 customers10:54
tbr4.2.2.2 used to be popular 10 years ago, but got superseded by google dns and others for most people10:54
tbrit used to be an open dns10:54
ggabrielit just works (tm)10:55
tbrthere are a few other known good open dns servers10:55
SQUelcherit is still, with this "level3 search helper"10:55
tbre.g. ccc runs one IIRC10:55
Liekehttp://www.opennicproject.org/10:56
ggabrieltrouble is that you don't simply do dns research when you don't have a working dns10:56
ggabriel4.2.2.2 is easy to remember :P10:56
Teguor try looking up the IP addresses of your the DNS servers of your operator and adding them manually? though.. I guess that might not work with WLAN then if they are global10:56
wysiwtfquad8 ftw10:57
ggabrielTegu: in general they firewall that10:57
Teguggabriel: hm?10:57
Teguwlans?10:57
Nicd-ggabriel: it's still only for level 3 customers10:57
ggabrielYaniel's issue is when in 4g, you can't simply use your home btroadband operator's dns10:58
ggabrielNicd-: I understand, but it still works for emergencies10:58
Nicd-ggabriel: 8.8.8.8 works for emergencies and is actually public10:58
Teguyea, I thought if the 4g operator has similar DNS server lists, not sure10:58
ggabrielNicd-: true, but I don't encourage people to use google stuff10:58
Nicd-ggabriel: then point to some other open DNS10:59
ggabrielTegu: well, but those would be the ones not working in this instance :)10:59
wysiwtfif level3 wants just l3 customers using their dns they can apply ip filters10:59
wysiwtflike every other isp does it too10:59
Nicd-wysiwtf: you are the reason for needing IP filters ;)10:59
wysiwtfno10:59
Teguggabriel: yea, true. unless it bugs somehow and doesn't switch to the next DNS server correctly.11:00
wysiwtfyou should adapt the tech to the humans, not the humans to the tech11:00
ggabrielNicd-: I really don't care so long as it's open, and it works11:00
ggabrielNicd-: I'm also level8 :P11:00
wysiwtfi doubt l3 even notices the increased traffic11:00
wysiwtfi heard they have some of it :p11:00
Nicd-seems l3 are hijacking failed dns requests though11:04
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SQUelcherwysiwtf!11:08
wysiwtfsqu11:08
ggabrielTegu: yes, it's annoying, my carrier switches dns's often, depending on where I am. I only hack this stuff when I really need internet...11:12
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ggabrielcool, I can unlock the bootloader of my work android phone. let's see if it can run sfos when the contract ends ;)11:25
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tortoisedocOHO13:03
tortoisedochave tablet shipment resumed???13:03
tortoisedochttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1490464&postcount=244713:04
tortoisedocO-O13:04
tortoisedoconly 64GB tho..13:04
tortoisedocmines is 32 >-<13:04
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mornfallyou got to be kidding me13:21
Stskeepsor maybe the finnish post got unstuck?13:22
Stskeepsdunno13:22
tortoisedochah13:22
tortoisedocstuck for two months? :P13:22
mornfallyou mean hk post13:22
mornfall?13:22
Stskeepsno, finnish13:22
tortoisedocStskeeps : mornfall might not be in FI?13:22
Stskeepshttp://postandparcel.info/69406/news/prospect-of-strike-hangs-over-finlands-postal-service/13:23
mornfallyes, but I don't think sending tablets has anything to do with finnish post (receiving in finland, probably yes, but ...)13:23
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tortoisedocunless that particular tablet was shipped from FI, that is13:24
plfiorinimine is 64GB :)13:24
ggabrielthe post says order completed13:25
ggabrieldoesn't say they received the tablet13:25
ggabrielmaybe somebody did something in shop.jolla.com13:25
mornfallthat too13:25
ggabrielthat may or may not mean anything13:25
ggabrielsorry for the downer :P13:25
ggabriel(best to keep expectations low)13:25
tortoisedocggabriel : hah!13:25
tortoisedoclets keep our fingers crossed ;)13:26
mornfallwell, I don't think my expectations can get much lower... jolla keeps screwing its core supporters even from beyond the grave :P13:26
ggabrielall my toes were crossed yesterday (was wearing very tight climbing shoes)13:27
tortoisedocwait what, is jolla dead?13:27
mornfallbasically, yes13:27
tortoisedocmornfall : not yet?13:27
mornfallcould be brought back to life by the right amount of cash, sure13:28
tortoisedocso please avoid spreading strange rumors kthx :)13:28
mornfallit's not a rumour, jolla can't pay bills and can't pay salaries either13:28
mornfallso they aren't operating13:28
mornfallthat's pretty dead isn't it13:28
Stskeepsmornfall: well, surprisingily we're still operating13:28
Stskeepsnot fast, but we're operating13:29
tortoisedocmornfall : dead means gone13:29
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tortoisedocas nokia is13:29
tortoisedocas meego is13:29
ggabrielmornfall: ok, you're wrong :P13:29
ggabrielthey are paying salaries13:29
tortoisedocas STP's singer is :/13:29
mornfalltortoisedoc: nokia is much more alive than jolla, coincidentally13:29
ggabrielthey have enough to go for an undetermined period of time13:29
tortoisedocmornfall : MeeGoNokia13:29
ggabrieland you're right in that they need money influx13:29
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ggabrielalso, I had a dream that I cracked my new jolla's screen; so I'll need another jolla soon :P13:29
mornfallwell, 'operating'13:30
mornfallit all hinges on cash coming in13:31
tortoisedocmornfall : money talks13:31
TofeOne thing is sure, they don't see the light of day very much13:32
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ggabrielTofe: lol13:33
ggabrielmornfall: that's how all companies work13:33
plfiorinioperating but with one foot in the grave13:34
mornfallggabriel: some companies have cash reserves :) and some net worth, even, sometimes13:34
mornfallnot twitter of course13:34
mornfallpeople beat other people just to be able to give twitter some monies13:34
mornfalleven though the company is consistently generating huge losses :D13:34
ggabrielso does amd, maybe intel13:35
ggabrielseveral airlines too13:35
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ggabrielsomehow, everybody needs money13:35
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tortoisedocyou forgot the big A guys13:42
tortoisedocthey have all the cash of the world13:42
tortoisedocTofe : only 6 months a year13:42
mornfallthey didn't pull the cash out of thin air13:43
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mornfalland as for intel, they make $15 billion a year net, that's hardly strapped for cash13:43
tortoisedochow about M$13:43
mornfall$11, anyway13:43
mornfallbillion, duh13:43
tortoisedocpeanuts ;)13:43
ggabrielapple has a lot of cash13:44
mornfallairlines are probably a different story... times are tough13:44
ggabrielwait until they are forced to spend it13:44
ggabrielthey'll lose a lot of money in shares13:45
ggabrielsteve jobs is gone.... apple is a goner, sooner or later13:45
mornfallheh, that's true of any company... anything, really13:45
mornfall'sooner or later' could be hell of a long time13:45
ggabrielmy original point13:45
ggabrieleverybody needs cash, and it depends on wehre that cash is13:45
ggabrielapple is alive because of m$ fwiw13:45
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mornfallit was really iPod that made Apple what it is today13:49
tortoisedocyes13:50
tortoisedociPod changed things13:50
tortoisedocthen iPhone13:50
tortoisedocthen iPad13:50
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Nicd-can't discount iTunes13:50
mornfallthere were quite a few good decisions involved though, it's wasn't *entirely* a coinflip :P13:51
mornfalleither way, it'll take a long time for that to be undone, and some ingenuous competitors13:51
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mornfallon the other hand, the meego line seems to be cursed :-)13:53
tortoisedocand perhaps some new needs from customers13:53
mornfallmaemo line, more like13:53
mornfallwhatever, it keeps going and keeps burning through companies :D13:53
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louisdkMy Jolla phone will be picked up at monday and will be sent to Finland for repair for the 2nd time.16:43
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ggabriellouisdk: what's wrong with it?16:43
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IngvixI was afraid I had to also send my jolla for repair as it didn't recognise angle changes anymore but rebooting the phone did the trick17:31
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Coolg33kI sent it today for repair :(17:39
Coolg33khope it will be back soon17:39
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louis_ggabriel, yellow marks on the screen18:03
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pdanekTMavica: here please?19:00
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FireFlyhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Jolla/comments/3velu5/i_got_a_refund_for_the_jolla_tablet_through_paypal/ hmm20:34
FireFlyI can't see this helping with the state of affairs, heh20:34
mornfallwell, it's inevitable20:34
mornfalligg backers don't qualify, there is a timeout20:35
mornfallthe only thing that stands between jolla and a bank run kind of scenario is that there aren't many options for people to get refunds20:37
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pdanekfor, those who ordered by paypal have to get refunds right?20:47
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pdanekthe only way to avoid refunds for those is bankruptcy20:48
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pdanekso if all those 2000 people request refund, Jolla has to deal with it20:48
fennekkican you get the money back from indiegogo though20:50
fennekkiif the payment is technically not for the product you were supposed to get you mightn't?20:50
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louisdkIt'll be interesting to see if I can life with a dumpphone while my Jolla is in for repair :)21:00
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phlixi_its actually pretty easy...21:15
phlixi_...if you backed IGG, then you either get a tablet, or nothing21:15
phlixi_end of story, no refund whatsoever21:15
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fennekkiYeah I doubt IGG will require the provider to actually produce rewards in circumstances where it's unlikely that they can21:19
Stskeepsnot to mention that IGG probably took a cut, too21:19
Stskeepsalso21:20
Stskeepsthis is the preorder ones, not the IGG ones21:20
phlixi_no fennekki, there are no doubts...21:20
fennekkiStskeeps: ah, okay21:20
Stskeepspreorder ones are slightly more understandable21:20
phlixi_IGG is like donation...21:21
phlixi_what do you think the HK Jolla is for^^21:21
fennekkiwell, preorders are obviously refundable? After all, they're orders and have to be fulfilled in a way that satisfies both parties.21:21
fennekkiphlixi_: a Finnish corporation or individual may not ask for donations, so that presumably21:22
fennekkiwell, I'm not sure about corporations but individuals and non-registered-associations can't, as far as I recall21:22
phlixi_preorders, of course, totaly different story... but in the end, i dont know when they where payed.. probably too long ago to get refund from paypal. i would expect them to refund no longer than 6 weeks ... but thats speculation now21:22
fennekkiit's not even explicitly illegal it's just, you need a permit to do so and there is no way for these legal entities to acquire the permit21:22
fennekkiphlixi_: they could still get a refund through way of suing, at least, because at least in Finland (and in the entire EU I believe) there are certain guarantees for purchases from companies21:23
fennekkithat as far as I recall include actually receiving a product you order21:24
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phlixi_i dont thikn that "they could still get a refund through way of suing"21:26
coderusnote that igg company was registered to Jolla HK21:26
phlixi_i dont know what it is called in english, in german "status" is the best you can get21:26
coderusso no problems with refunds21:26
phlixi_that means a paper where is written on it "they ow you money"... but you will never get something, because they dont have it21:27
coderusim sure igg refunds will work straightforward21:27
cehtehif there is no product and no money left then you can sue as much as you like21:27
phlixi_exactly21:27
phlixi_so, long story short: either you get a tablet, or jolla dies and you get nothing...21:29
fennekkia company can be required to liquidate its assets to pay any outstanding debt, so I can't see why a lawsuit couldn't force them to pay refunds as well21:29
fennekki:P21:29
fennekkiI mean21:29
fennekkiif bankrupt21:29
phlixi_yeah, and they do liquidate what? hot air?21:29
fennekkiThey're doing That Other Thing now as far as I can tell21:30
fennekkiphlixi_: the management21:30
fennekki:D21:30
fennekkiI don't know21:30
* Stskeeps sighs21:30
phlixi_i prefer pork and beef over managers21:30
cehteh... more interesting are there any signs of jolla surviving?21:31
Stskeepscehteh: lights are still on with a minimal team, according to last community meeting21:31
fennekkicehteh: well, they're not bankrupt? If they get more funding during the debt restructuring thing they might21:31
phlixi_i havent investigated that, but i highly doubt that "jolla adventures" (is it called like that?) share more than the "jolla" in the name21:31
tbrstones, fresh stones!21:31
Stskeepstbr: i was going to offer pitchforks21:32
cehtehStskeeps: good ho hear21:32
cehtehok there is a new blogpost as well21:32
fennekkiAnyway I've seen some companies survive debt restructuring, so! It's not, well, technically at least it's not a lost cause yet21:32
phlixi_to not have the "black one" as top post any longer?21:33
phlixi_:D21:33
* tbr hands Stskeeps a packet of gravel21:33
fennekkiBut they do seem in dire need of a lot of funding right now21:33
tbr"should be a good one"21:33
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tbrhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYkbqzWVHZI21:34
tbractually this has the beginning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffwFXGPRDu421:35
tbrstooones! there may be some lying on the ground, but not quite like these!21:36
tbr"he said tablet, stone him!"21:36
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Stskeepstbr: stone tablets? ;)21:40
HtheBdid I hear tablet?21:41
Stskeeps.. :P21:41
Stskeepsobviously this is the future instead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EwRmqzS3ys21:42
Stskeepsa real good reason to wear bling21:42
louisdkWhat does this mean: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1490464&postcount=2447 ? Has he ordered a tablet in dec '15 or recently got a confirmation order from Jolla?21:43
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HtheBhttps://i.imgur.com/AdiBPrO.jpg21:44
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louisdkHow would you compare SailfishOS 2.0 to Android 6 GUI wise?22:22
Hartzisfos is more simple?22:27
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phlixi_i think it is arguable... e.g. i think my mother would have a hard time with all the "invisible" stuff22:55
phlixi_...android/ios there is just buttons, you can see possible actions and tap them22:56
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phlixi_including a homebutton that (almost) always taks you at home, where as sailfish you have to know to swype22:56
phlixi_i think thats better, but not simpler22:56
phlixi_oh, didnt notice louisdk left...22:57
ln-well, i don't think people (your mom's generation anyway) is born with the meaning of a homebutton encoded into their dna.22:58
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phlixi_true, but that is actually something they learn pretty fast "if you do not know what to do, press this one button, and everything is back to normal"22:59
phlixi_i remember giving my n9 to people, they where just stuck23:00
phlixi_i just wanted to point out that "simpler" might not be that true...23:01
phlixi_of course simpler in the sense of "less functions" :)23:01
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ln-i would like to conduct an experiment where an N9 was given to a person who has no previous experience on any smartphone.23:04
phlixi_i did exactly that with my mother23:04
phlixi_no chance to get anything done23:04
phlixi_however, thats not better with other smartphones23:05
ln-maybe the real problem is touchscreens in general.23:07
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tigeliwell, my mom managed taking the jolla-phone into use with minimal tutoring23:07
tigeliI don't know what exactly she does with it but at least she can use whatsapp23:07
ln-let's imagine the original iPhone without a touch screen. would it have been a success?23:10
phlixi_a brick?23:11
ln-it is often argued that iPhone was so successful because it had a touch screen.23:12
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tigeliln-: I bet it was something different than the touch screen itself as with 7 million pieces sold.. I would not say that it was a success as the nokia had 7 phones that year which sold each over 15 million pieces23:21
tigeliwell.. it was a success for apple but compared to the other phones at the market, not really.23:22
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phlixi_well, if you went to a store, you pretty much had a 50:50 chance to get a nokia, sony or whatever back then...23:28
phlixi_for the new and pretty expensive iphone, you had to actually want one...23:29
phlixi_compared to same style what nokia tried it was actually successfull23:30
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