#jollamobile log for Wednesday, 2016-01-20

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gabriel9Jolla in news: https://www.rt.com/usa/329512-linux-security-flaw-millions-risk/08:47
gabriel9:D08:47
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Stskeepsironically we're not vulnerable on sbj08:48
Jopetoo old kernel?08:48
Stskeepsyeah08:48
gabriel9But that picture :)08:48
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Nicd-is that only relevant for mobiles?08:49
Nicd-or for any linux systems?08:49
gabriel9duno08:49
Stskeepsany08:49
Stskeepsafaik08:49
gabriel9i'm checking my distro forum08:49
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Nicd-no updated kernel yet for arch linux :/08:51
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lainwir3do/09:12
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rigoStskeeps: complement to my email: http://www.cnet.com/news/youd-say-no-to-your-android-phone-if-only-you-could-study-finds/09:16
Stskeepsnod09:17
Stskeepsgot it on my reading list atm09:17
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Stskeepsrigo: thanks for the article btw (pdf) it looks really interesting09:26
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rigoStskeeps: yes, I know Egleman. He was a student of Lorrie Cranor. I did P3P with Lorrie09:33
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rigothe interesting part is what they want to know and what they want to control09:33
rigonote that this is all US. In the EU, people are even more split between the paranoid and the careless09:34
Stskeepsnod09:34
rigoless careless here though09:34
rigoI mean less people careless09:34
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rigointeresting also the data categories that need special attention.09:36
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rigomeaning other categories may need less attention. Danger is always to fall into total paranoia thus making the system unusable09:37
Stskeepsit'd be such a joy to just have a re-think of the whole mobile app space and how we approach them..09:38
Stskeepsbecause sometimes it feels like it's too broke to fix09:38
rigoit is the way it is on purpose. There is a master plan09:39
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rigothis is why I'm looking into the third way09:39
rigoit would be much simpler to go apple/samsung and buy a mobile recharger for the resource hungry systems09:40
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rigoOMG, table 3 ... google location reporting WTF09:46
M-Yanielwhere?09:47
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rigoIn 66.1% of  applications’ location requests, they directly queried the09:48
rigoTelephonyManager , which can be used to deter­mine location via cellular tower  information.09:48
rigohttps://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_comments/2015/09/00013-97595.pdf09:48
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chem|strigo: I used google maps on my w880 (sony, no internal gps, the sony gps mouse not attached), using google location service navigating a live route of ~70km with a 10m precision even on the autobahn, and that was like 8 years ago09:59
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chem|stI think it was in the terms to just allow the app everything, as it did not bother to ask anything on start10:01
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rigochem|st: they used the tower triangulation, this is even more precise than gps. The question here is rather the number of requests10:54
rigobecause you not only request location. Navteq wants you to send information so they can correspond wifi mac addresses to geo-points. But at least they ask and explain10:55
Nicd-tower triangulation is not more precise than gps10:56
Nicd-at least here in finland the accuracy ranges from about a hundred meters to kilometers10:57
rigo:) ok, if you have one tower every 50km ...10:57
rigoin towns, GPS is less precise because of the reflections on buildings. As there are many towers, triangulation works better there10:58
snow_10:58
tbractually GPS is more acurate than calculations based on base stations10:58
tbrwifi mac based is probably  best where GPS and base station calculations suck due to urban canyons11:00
rigook, so be it, this wasn't my main point. My point is that they retrieve location information from the handset and I'm not sure if they correctly asked for permission.11:00
tbrcheck the terms of service. it should say what they do.11:00
Nicd-my handheld dedicated GPS gets down to 3 meters at best, that's pretty good11:01
rigothere was this famous article on the traces the green politician left in germany all over the place. There are way too many corps trying to get that information without me noticing11:02
Nicd-it's GPS + GLONASS, but afaik in the US it could get closer to 1 meter because of WAAS11:02
tbrNicd-: EGNOS also provides WAAS in europe, but it's quite low above the horizon in .fi11:02
rigotbr, checking terms of service for every web-site you visit will consume 270days /year according to a US study11:03
tbrrigo: I can't comment on the current state, but they used to be incredibly privacy focused with their infrastructure11:03
rigogoogle?11:03
rigoprivacy focused?11:03
tbrno, the company which was formerly known as nokia/here/navteq11:03
rigooh, they are in Finland and mainly controlled by EU data protection law. And they have a known system of aggregation11:04
rigoand they aren't trying to sell you targetted advertising11:04
rigosell you via tartgeted advertisement11:04
Nicd-tbr: yeah I know, but it doesn't really work here I think, since 3 meters accuracy is the best I can get11:05
Nicd-it's good enough for geocaching :)11:06
tbrsomething like DGPS would be nice11:06
chem|stI love to proof people wrong on the internets just way to much...11:06
SQUelcherI think the best i've seen was 2m on my handheld gps11:06
tbrITYM "prove"11:06
SQUelcheron open fields in the uk ;)11:07
tbrI used to draw funny point clouds using a stationary GPS and logging software11:07
Pawkyam I assuming correctly the multi SMS bug still exists in the latest release?11:07
Nicd-I didn't see a notice about it being fixed11:08
Pawky:-(11:09
Pawkyme neither..11:09
Nicd-so... try?11:09
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tilldoes the "don't start android support on boot" in 2.0.1.7 work for anyone?11:09
chem|stPawky: is it in the changelog?11:09
PawkyNicd-: wouldnt want to send stuff to a lot of people just for testing purposes11:09
Pawkychem|st: not that I know of..11:10
chem|sttill: yes11:10
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chem|stPawky: why do you ask then?11:10
Pawkychem|st: well... maybe because the bug seems to be well known?11:10
tillstrange.. my phone still starts android, and here maps (android) can still not see my sdcard11:11
Pawkyand in my oppinion should have a bit higher priority compared to a few other fixes that has been released.11:11
PawkyRegarding maps, is there a way to download them for offline use?11:11
chem|stPawky: I have an alike discussion on tjc with markkyboy and ossi... but there it was actually in the release notes by accident (format uSD in settings)11:12
tillPawky: for android here maps yes11:12
Pawkytill: but the official jolla map app also uses HERE maps, so why not that one?11:13
chem|stPawky: because reasons11:13
tillbecause it sucks :)11:13
Nicd-Pawky: android here maps has better navigation11:13
chem|stNicd-: has navigation11:13
PawkyNicd-: yes, but its not a "native" app...11:13
Nicd-jolla just tells you the route but doesn't follow you11:13
Nicd-so not really that useful when drivin11:14
Pawkyis there any un official way to get them all downloaded into the phone? :-)11:14
chem|stPawky: the answer is just no11:14
PawkyIn my oppinion that was the N9s strength..11:14
tillit's also the most wanted feature for the jolla11:15
Pawkychem|st: no copy from the android version into the Jolla? :-/11:15
chem|stit is closed source here crap and jolla did not pay them enough to give us just HERE like we had on N911:15
Pawkychem|st: I thought the HERE maps where open source?...11:15
Stskeepschem|st: oh god, i wish it was that simple11:15
Stskeeps:P11:15
Pawkybut if its the same database, maybe one could just copy from the N9 or the android app? :-D11:16
Pawkynobody tried this as of yet?11:16
chem|stStskeeps: :P I try to give simple answers today, less truth and more lies for children (I should start writing a book for that matter)11:16
Nicd-is anything about HERE open source?11:16
Nicd-it's not openstreetmap11:16
chem|stPawky: nobody succeeded as of yet afaik11:17
Pawkychem|st: but people have tried?11:17
tillPawky jolla here map is all online based, i doubt there is a "database"11:17
Pawkytill: aaah...11:17
Pawkysad.. :'(11:17
chem|sttill: not exactly, but it deletes the db according to where you are iirc11:18
chem|stguess it is somewhat max amount of tiles cached stuff11:18
ppyou could mitm it and cache the tiles11:18
* pp hides11:18
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PawkyI believe those online maps are just rubbish... when you really need them abroad they are useless..11:19
tillactually i just opend jolla maps, and it downloaded tiles although i have used it in this area before :)11:19
chem|stpp: yeah setup a mapserver on your phone and reroute map requests to it^^11:19
Pawkychem|st: being ironic, or is that actually something doable?11:20
chem|stPawky: android here works well, that is all you get atm, what you might want to look at is modrana11:20
tillPawky if you have access to here servers and data you may try11:20
chem|sttill: :D11:20
tillbut i doubt anyone except here has11:20
Pawkytill: well.. i downloaded all  files for the N9.. :-)11:20
ppIIRC it's just http://tile.server/xxx/yyy11:21
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ppwhich something like squid should handle11:21
tillbut than you have no routing11:21
ppmight be they've upgraded to https11:21
chem|sttill: he did not ask for routing11:21
ppbut yep, I'd just use the android here, it works very well11:21
chem|stPawky: have a look what sailfish-maps does web wise, replicate and set it up on device, if it is askign the server "what tiles do I need" you are already screwed11:22
Pawkyinstalled modrana, looks promising :-)11:23
chem|stPawky: there you go...11:23
tillmaep is/was also quite fast and nice, no routing but tiles caching11:23
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Pawkyused that one in the old days :-)11:24
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chem|stI have to admit, even for OSM I use android apps... while I actually do not need a map at all, I just need a kml overlay shown at my current position11:24
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Pawkyare all map apps using tiles nowadays?... whats wrong with good old vectors?11:28
kjetilhoOSMAND renders itself11:29
tadzikvectors too easy to reuse for your own needs, maybe?11:29
kjetilhogood point, tadzik11:29
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tadzikI'm guessing either that or the general trend to move the computations to servers11:30
tadzikgoogle probably realizes how easy it'd be to write an adblock for vector map :P11:30
tadzikI'm not sure if they actually do "promoted places", but if they did11:30
tadzikwell, it may be a little far-fetched11:31
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M4rtinKPawky: let me know if you hit any issues with modRana :)11:45
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M4rtinKon a related note I have offline routing in modRana on Sailfish OS almost working11:46
BysmyyrM4rtinK: \o/11:46
M4rtinKnow I just need to make it "production ready"11:46
stephgM4rtinK: \o/11:46
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M4rtinKalso need to figure out how to actually distribute it11:47
M4rtinKwill be easy for OpenRepos - I'll just add the monav-light package to the repo11:47
Nicd-M4rtinK: do you have spies here or how did you know Pawky installed modRana? ;)11:48
M4rtinK(it provides the monav-light CLI binary that is used to compute the routes)11:48
M4rtinKnot sure what horrible bundling nightmares I would have to do to get it to the Jolla store though11:48
M4rtinKNicd-: I have another "read only" client joined on the channel11:49
Nicd-I knew it! there is a spy among us!11:49
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prometoysCan somebody explain to me, what causes the "optimsiation-loop" during update to 2.0.1.7?11:57
Stskeepsprometoys: check dmesg11:59
Stskeepsand 2$$@@$ btrfs11:59
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prometoysI solved it by deleting old files. And update is running. i just try to understand it.11:59
mornfallbtrfs!!!1one the best thing since sliced bread right?12:00
mornfalljolla should offer ext4 reflashes for phones12:01
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entilonline migration!!one12:02
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mornfallentil: that only works one way... from ancient (ext4) to modern (btrfs)12:05
mornfallbecause no one in their right mind would want to migrate from btrfs, amirite?12:05
entilI usually take the part of joe q average (to the best of my ability) when it comes to appliances but unlike joe q average I never filled my partition full enough to have issues12:06
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mornfallwell12:09
mornfallyou don't even have to really fill it up much12:10
mornfallthe fail is in bad free space recycling12:10
Nicd-my first full btrfs was after 3-4 months of use, I was only using about 4-5 GB of space12:10
mornfallso just using it can land you in trouble over time, even if you maintain a bunch of free space12:10
mornfall'free space'12:11
Nicd-at least I got to visit Jolla offices so it wasn't all bad12:11
mornfallbtrfs likes to lie about that, too12:11
mornfallthat is one thing that's apparently still not fixed, even though it has seen a lot of development since the (positively ancient) jolla kernel12:11
mornfallnée qualcomm kernel12:12
Nicd-should have gone with ZFS ;)12:12
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entilguess sailfish (sailfish's btrfs support) doesn't benefit from an ancient kernel12:20
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M4rtinKeven the most up-to-date btrfs code is still having major issues12:23
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M4rtinKIMHO LVM + ext4/xfs is the best one can get on Linux these days12:23
M4rtinKThe Tablet has LVM + ext4 BTW12:24
stephgM4rtinK: nah zfs all the way, on a computer at least12:24
mornfallstephg: you mean the rampant layering violation? :P12:24
stephgmornfall zactly12:24
M4rtinKstephg: don't have any firsthand experience with ZFS12:24
Stskeepszfs is awesome12:24
Stskeeps:P12:24
prometoysis the btrfs balance operation now safe?12:24
stephgM4rtinK: what Stskeeps said :)12:24
mornfallyeah, especially the amount of ram it wants reserved12:25
M4rtinKstephg: but I have heard about it not really scaling down gracefully for smaller devices & PCs12:25
mornfallsetting aside 2G of RAM on a 1G phone sounds like a deal12:25
Stskeepsmornfall: i'm not insane enough to put it on a mobile device though :)12:25
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stephgM4rtinK mornfall yeah the 'old' received wisdom was 1G per TB storage12:25
stephgyou can run it with less tho12:25
mornfallwell, neither is btrfs, clearly12:25
mornfallstephg: yes, but the real problem is that it has its own memory subsystem that is duct-taped into the host kernel12:26
mornfallon both freebsd and linux at least12:26
mornfallit's probably fine and dandy on solaris12:26
M4rtinK+ that incompatible license12:26
stephgM4rtinK: it's going to be in Ubuntu 1604 btw12:26
stephgno more needing a 3rdparty repo12:27
M4rtinKthat prevents it from being maintained in kernel like other "normal" filesystems12:27
stephgso the licensing thing is no longer a thing, I don't think12:27
Stskeepsstephg: well, nvidia drivers..12:27
M4rtinKstephg: but still not as part of kernel12:27
Stskeeps:P12:27
stephghehe12:27
M4rtinKmany people will not take it seriously/touch it as a result12:27
mornfallthe nvidia driver is, incidentally, another thing with a great deal of duct tape holding it in the kernel12:28
stephglunchtiem bbl12:28
M4rtinKand even in Debian it is IIRC not yet really formally accepted12:28
M4rtinKjust proposed AFAIK12:28
mornfallwell just fire up a KVM with Solaris in it, make a ZFS pool on virtio blk devices and export it with NFS back to the host, voilá12:29
stephgew12:29
mornfalltotally worth it ;-)12:29
stephg:)12:29
mornfallwell, people do crazier things than that12:30
mornfallbut now, there's a train to catch12:30
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prometoysIs it safe to run btrfs-balancer now?12:33
Stskeepsprometoys: that's essentially what the optimization thing does afaik12:34
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tadzik"Sailfish OS could not be updated. Please try again later."12:53
tadzikI got the same thing yesterday, I suppose I'll get the same thing tomorrow; any logs to look into?12:53
Stskeepstadzik: journalctl as a start12:54
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tadzikStskeeps: it doesn't seem to have logs before the last boot12:57
Stskeepsah yes12:57
Stskeepsso when does this message appear12:57
Stskeepsand also ssu lr12:57
tadzikI tried --until with the timestamps from "logs begin at", no dice12:57
tadzikit appears after the progressbar goes on and on on the updatescreen12:58
tadzikI'm not sure if it goes to the end, I wasn't looking at it through the process12:58
tadzikssu lr: https://gist.github.com/tadzik/ba512ace5a94e6a0377912:58
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Stskeepsthe latest isn't correct12:59
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Stskeepsssu re 2.0.1.713:00
Stskeepspkcon refresh13:00
Stskeepstry again13:00
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tadzikroger13:01
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tadzikyep, now lr doesn't show latest13:02
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tadzikis the system update basically a package update that rolls back to last butterfs snapshot if it fails?13:05
Stskeepsi wish13:06
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tadzik:)13:09
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Stskeepstadzik: helped?13:17
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PawkyM4rtinK: Am I asuming correctly modRana doesn't support offline maps either?... :-(13:32
M4rtinKPawky: not yet13:33
tadzikStskeeps: yeah, it did, thanks :)13:33
M4rtinKPawky: but of course the tiles it downloads are saved locally13:33
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M4rtinKPawky: and it has even a built-in batch downloader, just not yet exposed in the Qt 5 GUI used on Sailfish OS13:34
M4rtinKPawky: but eventually I would like it to have proper vector based locally rendered maps13:34
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M4rtinKbut that will take quite some work, so it is not there yet13:34
M4rtinKjust some low level enablement stuff so far13:34
PawkyM4rtinK: would be cool if one could use the N9 files :-)13:35
Pawkywhats the difference with the two network modes?13:35
mkolmanthere should be a help text underneath13:35
mkolmanat least in the Sailfish OS version13:36
mkolmanoh13:36
M4rtinKoops13:36
M4rtinKmy secret identity has been revealed! :)13:36
M4rtinKanyway, the only difference at the moment is that the minimal mode disables automatic tile downloads13:37
M4rtinKthat's it13:37
M4rtinKyou can still search online, etc.13:37
M4rtinKI guess eventually there should be a "no network access" mode13:37
M4rtinKthat disables *all* network usage13:38
M4rtinKpossibly with dialogs for interactive usage attempts ("do you want to turn off the no network access mode ?", etc.)13:39
Pawkyit just states "in full network usage mode no network usage restrictions are in place" which is kind of obvious, but does not tell what the other option does... ;-)13:39
mkolmanhmm13:39
mkolmanit should show a different one when you switch to the minimal one13:39
Pawkyoh.. never tried it..13:39
Pawkyjust read and started to think..13:40
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mkolmanjust switch to the other one13:40
mkolmanand it tells you :)13:40
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mkolmanI think it is kinda OK like this13:41
mkolmanit is a combo box anyway13:41
Pawkykeep full as default, and write what a change would do, maybe?13:41
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Pawky"change this if you do not want to ... bla bla"13:42
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M4rtinKwell, that might be a wall of text in the end13:42
Pawkydoes it pre fetch tiles in some way?13:43
M4rtinKcurrently just what you see13:43
M4rtinKon the map13:43
Pawkyaha.. that makes zooming in a bit slow..13:43
M4rtinKthe batch download code is more sophisticated13:43
Pawkyi believe google maps does download different levels.13:43
M4rtinKyou can download around a route, etc.13:43
M4rtinKit could be possible to download one level up & down for example13:44
M4rtinKbut it should be probably optional13:44
M4rtinKas that can be quite a lot of data13:44
M4rtinKalso you can do the trick13:44
M4rtinKwhere you just scale the tiles when zooming up or down13:44
M4rtinKand then you replace them with the actual tiles once they are downloaded13:45
M4rtinKmany apps do that13:45
Pawkywell, if I have choosen full network.... i want full :-)13:45
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ggabrielit works like a charm too13:50
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ggabrielused modrana y japan with zero data access13:50
ggabrielit's become so much better than a year or two ago13:50
ggabriels/y/in/ :P13:51
M4rtinKBTW, the GTK version of modRana has some optimizations for high speed highway driving13:51
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M4rtinKwhere it preloads a bit in the direction of travel13:51
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M4rtinKggabriel: cool! :)13:51
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M4rtinKI really need to work more on it13:51
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Pawky:-)13:51
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Pawkyoffline browsing :-)13:52
M4rtinKalso - patches welcome! :)13:52
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Pawkyvector maps?13:52
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ggabrielvector maps is a monster13:52
Pawkywell...  not storage wise, i presume13:52
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ggabrieleverything wise, for what i've read13:53
ggabrielit'd be nice but13:53
M4rtinKit is a complicated problem13:53
M4rtinKfrom where & how to store the date13:53
M4rtinKthrough efficient data grabbing13:53
M4rtinKthrough styling and rendering13:53
M4rtinKespecially on mobile platforms13:54
M4rtinKwhere external rendering dependencies are a hassle13:54
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M4rtinKand many desktop/server map rendering libraries are almost impossible to build13:55
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M4rtinKalso I would like to make the solution I use for offline maps as multiplatform as possible13:57
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M4rtinKideally covering Sailfish OS, N900, desktop and Android13:57
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M4rtinKthat makes it complicated13:58
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M4rtinKone idea is to basically generate SVGs of the tiles you want to display and rendering those with a platform native tech13:58
M4rtinKeq. GTK on the N900 & Qt 5 on Sailfish, etc.13:59
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citylight2ok, may I ask your help with google account stop syncing? or use together?16:18
citylight2I remove the account, the define it again, and I get a notification that I need to sign-in16:19
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* attah crosses fingers16:51
* stephg_ sips beer16:51
* lainwir3d sips whisky16:52
stephg_whoa whoa whao lainwir3d bit early for that #where's mine16:52
lainwir3d:P16:54
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attahFreaky update process is freaky.. looked like bootloop17:02
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lainwir3dattah: yeah. Got scared for a moment that one of the only tablet will never start again17:09
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attahlainwir3d: doing mine now..17:10
ggabrieluhm... I read that meerun doesn't work with the latest17:11
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attahAliendalvik:Add native media control support.?17:17
ggabrielyeah17:17
attahI read that as lockscreen controls.. does anyone know?17:17
ggabrielshould be17:17
attahnot for spotify or audible anyway17:17
ggabrielgood to report then... maybe it doesn't work as expected17:18
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attahNeed to check if those two even use the correct method on android proper17:19
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attahBoth those apps publish something in their respective "notification" of now playing, not sure if that's what is supposed to be intercepted17:22
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ggabrielbut can you stop/skip/play?17:23
ggabrielsay from the lockscreen in android17:23
attahnot lockscreen.. but mine is probably too locked down for that (work phone)17:25
attahjust notifications..17:25
ggabrieli'd need to test that on mine... it shouldn't matter really, the ootb media player should have controls on the lockscreen or something17:25
ggabrieli don't know, this is how much i've used android lol :P17:25
attahseconded.. this is my first one.. and it's 11 months or so17:26
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SfietKonstantinWping sledges !18:43
SfietKonstantinWfor restaurant Vincent, can I register or are the registration closed ?18:44
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sledgesSfietKonstantinW: go ahead and register!23:25
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