#jollamobile log for Wednesday, 2016-02-24

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PaulePanterHi. https://shmh-museumsdienst.giantmonkey.de show the menu incorrectly on my Jolla phone.09:33
PaulePanterIt works correctly on Ubuntu phone and iPhone.09:33
PaulePanterCould you09:34
PaulePanterplease09:34
PaulePanter1st try to reproduce it,09:34
PaulePanter2nd tell me where to report it?09:34
ggabrielPaulePanter: together.jolla.com09:34
ggabrielfwiw, the browser is open source09:34
PaulePanterWell, no time to dig into it. I expect the browser to work.09:35
ggabrielnot all browsers work with all websites09:35
PaulePanterBut good to know that it is free software.09:35
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PaulePanterggabriel: I know that there are problems. But if it works on two other phones and with Firefox/Iceweasel set to the resolution on the desktop, I am pretty certain it’s a bug.09:36
ggabrielhuh? iphone doesn't use anything firefox09:37
ggabrieland what you say doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bug on the jolla browser09:37
ggabrielit may still be a problem with the website09:37
ggabrielanyway09:38
ggabrielreport it in together.jolla.com09:38
PaulePanterWill it be acted upon?09:38
PaulePanterI am still hesitant to use a forum as a bug tracker.09:38
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TeguPaulePanter: how does it work incorrectly? it seems to work for me (at least in some way?)09:39
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Yanielyou could open an issue on the github repo I guess09:40
Yanielbut those have a sad history of bureaucracy09:40
ggabrielPaulePanter: if it gets enough votes and people want to... it's open source...09:40
Teguusing Saimaa09:40
PaulePanterTegu: Do you see the image right below the top bar or some text which looks like the description of the menu?09:40
PaulePanterggabriel: That does not sound very professional.09:41
PaulePanterYaniel: Thank you for the hint.09:41
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r0kk3rzPaulePanter: theres an existing post about sites that dont work in the jolla browswer09:41
r0kk3rzadd to that09:41
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PaulePanterTegu: I also have 2.0.0.10 installed.09:42
PaulePanterr0kk3rz: Interesting. Thank you.09:42
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TeguPaulePanter: I wonder what description do you mean09:42
PaulePanterInstead of the image I see blue text.09:43
PaulePanter*Instead of seeing the image directly, I see blue text above it.09:44
TeguI don't see any blue text09:46
Teguexcept for the links actually, but they look just fine09:46
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PaulePanterTegu: Ok, then there is a different problem, if you cannot reproduce it.09:47
TeguPaulePanter: any screenshot?09:47
PaulePanterI’ll try to get one in the evening.09:48
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PaulePanterThank you for the help. I’ll try to debug it further.09:48
TeguPaulePanter: where should the odd text be? http://m.imgur.com/N0RAx7L,FIHtR5T,2F4f9V309:49
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chem|sthttp://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/MWC_2016_press_release_240216_65.pdf09:55
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Tofechem|st: so, apart from mi-fone, nothing really new so far10:00
SfietKonstantinWwell10:00
SfietKonstantinW3 partners (europe, asia, africa) is pretty good for a company this size10:01
SfietKonstantinWthat went through their 3rd valley of death10:01
chem|stTofe: not really but targeting mass-markets of tailored-apps-os is what made Nokia no1 once10:02
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tbrgotta love how they aligned themselves with the industry even more in the (ab)use of the word 'open'. -- naming something open is like naming a country 'democratic'\10:02
PaulePanterTegu: When the menu is collapsed, right where the menu on your screenshot is.10:02
tadziknot really sure if the 3rd partner (fairphone) counts. They do mention that they will be supporting the *community* to port sailfish to fairphone.10:02
TeguPaulePanter: weird if you see it but I don't10:03
tadzikah, but they consider actual collaboration too10:03
Teguwith same versions and all10:03
PaulePanterTegu: Thank you for the help. I’ll look further into it.10:03
tadzikI also like how the document is titled "Microsoft Word" >:D10:04
chem|sttbr: stop the FUD, mer is FOSS, and there is a lot of stuff closed Jolla would not even have the liberty to open as it isn't theirs in the firstplace (I understand the grudge with the core apps!)10:04
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tbrchem|st: well well, straight to ad hominem, ain't we friendly today10:05
lainwir3d"Microsoft Word - MWC 2016_press_release_240216.doc"10:05
lainwir3dholy crap, they made the statement using microsoft word D-:10:05
lainwir3dwe're doomed10:05
SfietKonstantinWI still don't like the open thing yeah10:05
chem|sttbr: you are talking abuse as if the word is any less offensive10:05
Tegu"Producer: Mac OS X 10.10.2 Quartz PDFContext"10:05
tbrchem|st: notice that I wasn't referring to open source, I was referring to their use of the word 'open' in general10:05
chem|sttbr: yeah sry bit on the hot edge today10:06
tbrchem|st: and where did I call you a child-abuser to justify a retaliation with direct ad hominem attack?10:06
tbryou should get yourself a big fat cup of chill the fark out10:06
chem|sttbr: will do :/10:07
chem|stlainwir3d: all press releases have been that way?!10:07
Teguhum.. has the Sailfish OS logo changed, btw? it's different on the press release. not the usual Seagate-like logo10:08
tbryes it has changed10:08
tbrand in my opinion it's fugly10:08
SfietKonstantinWit is weired :(10:08
Teguye :/10:08
lainwir3dchem|st: don't know actually, just noticed on this one ;-)10:08
tbrand they must have fired all their graphics designers. The abuse of Helvetica in the logo is strong10:08
Teguand sailfishos.org has both logos \o/10:09
chem|stTegu: maybe Mark has his TM on it^^10:09
chem|stit now looks more like seahorse than sailfish10:10
Teguyea, the spike is too short10:10
Tegu(horn? whatever it is called)10:10
Guest48931I like how sailfishos.org has the old logo on every page except the main one10:11
chem|stspear?10:11
chem|stspeer?10:11
r0kk3rzGuest48931: i guess that was part of the update they wanted to roll out before MWC10:11
chem|sttbr: ugly font10:11
r0kk3rzwhich didnt happen10:11
chem|sttbr: and that is child-abuse!10:12
r0kk3rzi wonder whether they really need to spell out the 'OS' at the end10:12
r0kk3rzwhy cant it just be called sailfish?10:12
Tegusailfish.org at least goes to somewhere else (just tried to go to sailfishos.org but forgot the os)10:13
Helleprobably because sailfish can't be trademarked (easily)10:13
the_mgtI agree with tbr in general, the use of the word "open" in business speech is disambigous at best. microsoft sports it in various ways which make me wanna puke10:13
r0kk3rzHelle: why not? trademarks are industry specific10:13
Heller0kk3rz: it's harder atleast let's put it that way10:14
Heller0kk3rz: you can technically, but it's harder to uphold the more normal the word becomes10:14
Helleotoh, I wonder if they'd ever run into an issue where trademark comes into play......10:14
r0kk3rzyeah possibly10:16
r0kk3rzi just think having the OS at the end is a little ugly, but sometimes things are more complicated than just asthetics10:17
Guest48931What will Jolla Store be called from now on? Sailfish OS Store?10:20
Guest48931Does it fit in the Launcher?10:20
tadzikFish market!10:20
kjetilho"Sail Sale"10:20
tadzik:D10:20
TofeThe 'OS' at the end is just so that people know we are talking about a OS10:21
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TofeiOS, webOS, SailfishOS, etc10:21
Guest48931SailStore`?10:21
Guest48931Storefish...10:21
tbrchem|st: be happy they didn't use Arial, but the slightly better looking Helvetica LT. Still it doesn't fit the logo at all.10:21
tadzikYolo Store?10:22
* tadzik hides10:22
Guest48931Why do devs throw "sail" and "fish" into all app names?10:22
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Guest48931Sailculator! Calendarfish10:22
Guest48931Fishterm10:22
YanielFisherTerm*10:22
Guest48931(btw, where is the source for Sailfish version of Fingerterm available?)10:23
Guest48931(I mean the one which uses Sailfish keyboard)10:23
stephgGuest48931: it's in git somewhere10:25
stephgeither at merproject or github10:25
Guest48931I've had enough of BTRFS, can I format my Jolla's memory as ext4 and flash Sailfish onto it? Is that possible?10:25
Guest48931stephg: thanks10:25
stephgGuest48931: https://git.merproject.org/mer-core/fingerterm10:26
stephgGuest48931: Guest48931 if you take backups you probably can10:26
TofeGuest48931: it's possible, and certainly won't boot; some scripts make the assumption the rootfs uses btrfs, iirc10:26
Guest48931stephg: Nice, would you like to be the first to test this theory?10:26
Guest48931Tofe: The tablet has a different fs, so if the OS is the same on both it should tolerate multiple filesystems10:27
Tofeyep, if they use the same scripts for both10:28
stephgGuest48931: hell no10:28
r0kk3rzTofe: android.... os?10:28
stephgtablet is ext410:28
Guest48931stephg: so the os supports ext4?10:28
Guest48931if so, why can't we switch our Jolla's fs to ext4?10:29
r0kk3rzGuest48931: because we lack images10:29
stephgGuest48931: you can, but you need to be careful you don't brick it10:29
r0kk3rzand you'd have to re-eng the recovery10:29
Guest48931Can we make images ourselves? It's legal for your own use, as far as copyright laws go in Finland10:30
mal-ported devices use ext4 in rootfs10:30
stephgactually r0kk3rz is right about recovery:- recovery goes away if you do this10:30
Guest48931Pfff, who needs recovery?10:31
Guest48931jk10:31
Tofestephg: well, at that point, you may as well write your own :p10:31
r0kk3rzif you have a flashable image its not so bad anyway10:31
stephghehe10:31
TofeI've only used recovery to dump the whole image to a backup10:32
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Guest48931Care can flash your OS if bricked, so if we got control of their equipment we can achieve UNLIMITED POWAAAR!!!!10:34
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TofeGuest48931: as long as you have access to recovery, and you took a backup image *before* bricking everything, it should be fine I think. Risky though.10:41
Guest48931Tofe: k10:41
stephgpersonally I wouldn't bother10:42
stephgbuy an sd card and use that instead :D10:43
Guest48931stephg: mount home on sd?10:46
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stephgGuest48931 nah I just have duplicated directory structure and a couple of symlinks for things like cutespot10:51
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M4rtinKFYI: https://twitter.com/Fairphone/status/70246689007409971212:17
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kjetilhois Ubuntu Touch more open that SailfishOS?12:34
kjetilho*than12:34
AL13N_worki don't like how canonical does things in the FOSS community12:35
kjetilho56% SFOS :)12:35
M4rtinKwell all of their code is open source (GPLv3 mostly IIRC), right ?12:37
M4rtinKon the other hand from what I've heard they don't really develop in the open12:37
M4rtinK& don't react much to user feedback12:38
M4rtinKso Sailfish OS still feels more user driven even if not fully open source12:38
r0kk3rzkjetilho: i think this entirely depends on your definition of open12:38
M4rtinKwhich is quite a strange situation12:38
M4rtinKr0kk3rz: +112:38
tbrfor a lot of components you can just plug in nemomobile apps etc12:39
kjetilhor0kk3rz: the one non-open thing about SFOS which annoys me is the Dalvik implementation12:39
kjetilhobut I guess Ubuntu would have the same licencing issue12:39
tbrwell there is an open source project trying to tackle that12:39
r0kk3rzkjetilho: compared to ubuntu which has no android runtime?12:39
kjetilhoright12:39
r0kk3rzyou can, just not install android runtime and have exactly the same :)12:40
M4rtinKkjetilho: not really an issue for me personally12:40
M4rtinKother things irritate me much more - like the closed source core apps & component set12:40
M4rtinKthere are lots of small yet really irritating issues12:41
r0kk3rzbeing able to contribute to the component set would be nice...12:41
M4rtinKthat could be easily fixed if the given component was open source and/or they accepted patches12:41
M4rtinKsame thing about the docs for the components & other parts of the OS12:42
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M4rtinKif they exist they are full of errors12:42
M4rtinKwell at least this might improve in the future thanks to lbts effort12:42
r0kk3rzyeah there are areas of improvement coming12:43
r0kk3rzin docs and translations12:43
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M4rtinKsure12:45
r0kk3rzdual licencing is being pushed internally, and now they're short staffed they might actually really do it12:46
M4rtinKbut the issue I have with this that it is taking ages12:46
r0kk3rzyeah its not a quick process i guess12:46
M4rtinKI know its not easy to do properly when you are short on people12:46
M4rtinKbut at the same time it is painful to watch all the potential being wasted12:46
Tofer0kk3rz: well, we didn't hear a word about license topic since they survived financial issues12:47
r0kk3rzTofe: thats not true, it was talked about @ FOSDEM meeting12:47
M4rtinKpeople are waiting for the chance to help you *for free*12:47
AL13N_workexcept for Stskeeps who was trying to push it internally12:47
r0kk3rzAL13N_work: and still is12:47
M4rtinKletting them wait for 2-3 years (translations, open sourcing, etc.) is not a good idea...12:48
AL13N_worki'm just referring to the meeting@FOSDEM12:48
r0kk3rzM4rtinK: its not our company, they can run the ship how they want12:48
r0kk3rzthe fact that they even listen or engage with us at all is a miracle12:49
M4rtinKyeah12:49
AL13N_worksad but true12:49
M4rtinKbut seeing things crash and burn at least twice (N900 & N9) makes you wish they averted the same old mistakes12:49
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M4rtinKalso having the insight into how a big community distro works (Fedora) makes you want to point out collaboration mistakes when people make them12:50
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pdanekToday Jolla should announce new partnerships?13:11
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r0kk3rzpdanek: they did13:16
r0kk3rzpdanek: http://www.mi-fone.mobi/ << these guys in africa13:17
Yanielalso fairphone partnership is a thing13:21
Stskeepsturing was on the list too13:22
SfietKonstantinWha !13:28
SfietKonstantinWso that turing thing is not "nothing"13:28
Yanielthat remains to be seen13:30
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taaemhttps://cdn.jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/bsk-pdf-manager/MWC_2016_press_release_240216_65.pdf13:32
r0kk3rzStskeeps: turing was curiously absent from the press release i thought13:33
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pdanekWhy is Turing absent?13:39
pdanekTuring is like biggest news of all, isn't it?13:39
kjetilhoit's not news, since Turing has announced it already?13:40
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yestoallprobably it's better to not focus on the Turing "deal"13:41
pdanekright13:41
yestoallthat's hell of an undercover operation13:41
pdanek!seen TMAvica13:41
merbotpdanek: TMAvica was last seen in #jollamobile 1 day, 8 hours, 38 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <TMavica> It is a good profit businness if buy and sell intex phone to europe13:41
mornfallStskeeps: which list?13:42
pdanekTMAvica: Are you there?13:42
mornfallM4rtinK: oh come on, user feedback on sailfish? tjc is a dump13:44
r0kk3rzpdanek: a manufacturer that has never sold a phone is bigger news than successful manufacturers?13:44
pdanekr0kk3rz: good point13:45
mornfallr0kk3rz: sailfish on fairphone will have no android runtime either13:46
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mornfallr0kk3rz: at least for the time being13:46
mornfallthat might change if jolla steps up, but that has never happened so far13:46
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Stskeepsmornfall: well, the fairphone demoed today had alien dalvik (demo) on it13:47
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mornfallso maybe we'll be able to buy it in the jolla store one day13:52
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mornfall(that'd *hopefully* work on other community ports then, too)13:53
pdanekStskeeps: Did it???13:54
pdanekwow13:54
entilwhoah13:54
pdanekthe only problem is that tiny battery on Fairphone 213:54
pdanekand only 2GB ram13:54
entilthere is hope after all13:54
entilpdanek: otoh (no pun intended) the jolla phone has only a gig13:55
entilof ram13:55
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kjetilhomy Jolla has very good battery life -- as long as messageserver5 doesn't start spinning :)13:56
mornfallentil: most of that extra RAM will be lost to the hi-res display13:56
mornfallwayland is pretty memory-hungry13:56
entilhmmh, I got a new battery recently (completely unsupported) and it doesn't really get me through the day, though it is better, so I blame heavier use of android messaging apps like whatsapp and signal :(13:56
entilbut seriously cool if there's going to be alien dalvik for the fairphone 213:57
pdanekStskeeps: is the demo on YT somewhere?13:58
Stskeepspdanek: no idea13:59
Stskeepsbut it acts like alien dalvik anywhere else13:59
Stskeepsor on l500d13:59
Stskeepsugh13:59
Stskeepsi mean, aquafish13:59
entiland then there's the turing...14:00
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yestoallit's amazing how much attention the Turing gets from a community that has been enduring no shows for quite some time  :-)14:02
yestoallbut history is repeating itself14:02
yestoall:-)14:02
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M4rtinKmornfall: TJC is a dump, but that's not fully fault of the community14:20
M4rtinKmornfall: its at least partially due to parts of infrastructure that are just missing14:20
M4rtinKmornfall: like no bug tracker for Sailfish OS components, no Sailfish OS wiki, etc.14:20
M4rtinKmornfall: also Jolla not really responding to questions doesn't help with the general chaos14:21
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mornfallM4rtinK: right, so I don't se how that makes sailfish more 'open' (in the non-OSS sense) than ubuntu14:33
mornfallit's still a cathedral-style effort in both cases14:34
mornfallbut ubuntu makes the source available14:34
mornfalla whole bunch of sailfish source is accidentally available (because it's QML and JS distributed in source form)14:34
locusfhttps://sailfishos.org/wiki/SailfishOS14:34
mornfallbut other than that, it's not really OSS14:34
locusfwiki's here ^14:36
narchi4wheres my refund14:37
mornfalllocusf: Qt -> placeholder :P14:38
kimmolilots of placeholders there..14:38
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entilyestoall: it looks like sexy vaporware14:49
mornfallentil: turing phone? not even very sexy14:50
mornfallso, fairphone replacement modules add up to 185€ (including the display module)... what is missing?14:55
mornfall(the phone is €530, so some very substantail chunks appear to be irreplaceable)14:56
yestoallthere are some components missing14:58
yestoalllike the motherboard14:58
yestoallwithout CPU the user experience will be... disappointing :-)14:58
Tofeand the price of the phone isn't the sum of the prices of components14:58
yestoallhave a look at the FP1 spare parts14:59
yestoallthere's the motherboard, the daughterboard etc etc14:59
yestoalli think they just added the spare parts that tend to break easily15:00
yestoallunlike Jolla, they are even offering replacement batteries... wohooo15:00
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yestoallentil: i have truly seen sexier phones than the turing... it's just trying to look differently. It's the anti statement to an unobtrusive design (like the Jolla, which I like very much)15:03
kjetilhoI guess the Turing appeals to the same segment as Razor keyboards etc.15:04
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yestoallkjetilho: exactly :-)15:07
yestoalldammit15:11
yestoallanyone else just got this SMS from Jolla?15:11
cehtehsms from jolla?15:12
yestoall"go to xy to reclaim your free Jolla table within 60 seconds. Hurry!15:12
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cehtehsounds like spam :D15:12
SfietKonstantinWyep15:12
kjetilhoJolla just hit mainstream15:12
yestoallLOL15:12
yestoallyes, prank15:13
yestoallROTFL15:13
cehtehi didnt ordered a jolla table :D15:13
yestoalli think i need to kill the colleague over there15:13
cehtehhttps://1.f.ix.de/scale/geometry/695/q75/imgs/18/1/7/5/6/8/8/7/fairphone-1-fb857223714c5a55.jpeg15:14
kjetilhocehteh: what's the OS on the second phone?15:17
Tofeffos15:17
Tofe(isn't it?)15:17
SfietKonstantinWit is FFOS15:17
kjetilhoaha, thanks15:18
cehtehhttp://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/MWC-2016-Fairphone-2-Google-freies-Android-fast-fertig-Firefox-OS-Ubuntu-und-Sailfish-in-Arbeit-3116203.html15:19
cehtehthe whole article in german15:19
cehtehlets see if they somehow manage to get android support on the fp215:19
cehteh(in sfos of course)15:20
Stskeepswas demoed today but requires commercial license from fp side probably15:20
Stskeepstechnical not a big problem15:20
cehtehyeah15:21
entilStskeeps: any ideas on what the commercial license might cost and whether or not jolla will be retailing it?15:24
Stskeepseno clue personally15:25
entileither way that saved my day15:26
entil:)15:26
TofeI don't think it would make much sense to see Jolla not offering a bundle "official support for the OS + dalvik" to fp customers that would want a complete sfos experience15:26
Tofes/offering/selling/15:27
entilexcept the need to work on the jolla store and then putting up with EU regulator bullshit about VAT IDs and crap like that15:27
entilknowing which country you're selling to15:27
entil(hooray for free trade when it's made so difficult that it's not really worth the effort, gg)15:28
the_mgtwe could crowdfund the whole thing...15:29
the_mgtvia indiegogo15:29
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entilgood luck with that, I'm real wary of crowdfunding15:29
the_mgthonestly, I would accept a voucher for a fairphone or an intexphone instead a refound for the tablet15:29
entilI'd rather see jolla hack up something that allows only them to sell on the store and get dalvik for fp2 (or whatever) out there and then later work more15:30
entilotoh selling online should be a solved problem by now, so maybe there's nothing to be upset about15:30
the_mgtthe thing is, I don't think it works like that. I guess the alien dalvik devs charge a rather large sum for a license for X devices15:32
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Stskeepsthe_mgt: nah, doesn't work like that, but can't go into details15:32
Stskeepsthat'd be a lousy deal for a OS maker.15:33
the_mgton a side note: why did I register for the intex newsletter, when they do not send me news? only rubbish about their cricket team, or whatever15:34
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mornfallTofe: I expect the sum price of the parts (sold separately) to actualy exceed the phone price15:41
mornfallanyway, assuming that the remaining parts for fp2 eventually hit the shop, it's pretty much a winning proposition15:43
mornfallTofe: (anyway, as I said, my point was that a good chunk of the phone cannot currently be repaired via part replacement)15:45
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mornfallalso, fp2 has backside connectors for expansion, so a 'toh'-ish keyboard would be an option (too bad tohkbd2 had some serious quality issues)15:48
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pdanekhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY16:46
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nh1402hey, sailfishos.org was updated today20:03
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covoxhttps://jolla.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/SailfishIntro.jpg23:54
covoxinteresting handset design23:54

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