#jollamobile log for Saturday, 2016-02-27

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pdanekGuys00:06
pdanekwhat about the rumors about Sailfish/Russia?00:06
pdanekany more details?00:06
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tiwakehttp://gadgets.ndtv.com/intex-aqua-fish-334504:25
tiwakelooks like I'm two days old on that news04:27
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coderuspdanek: sailfish will be developed in russia, no rumors06:02
coderushttps://www.linkedin.com/pulse/ищу-настоящий-мобильных-разработчиков-в-российский-os-eyges-200006:02
Stskeepscoderus: well, there's no problem in adding more people across the world06:03
Stskeepssailfish development doesn't -move- to russia, it just adds more people across the world like we already have06:03
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coderusStskeeps: but it will add a lot more people :)06:53
Stskeepssure06:53
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narchi4how do i get refund09:28
ggabrielwhat for?09:29
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narchi4tablet09:34
ggabrielI don't think they've given instructions yet09:39
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phlixi afaik the current instruction is "wait for mail"09:45
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coderusi like how the things happening10:04
coderussoon we will make decision about tablets10:05
coderussoon we will send last batch10:05
coderussoon we will refund you10:05
coderussoon we will send emails :D10:05
r0kk3rzsoon10:08
phlixisoon we will say son10:08
r0kk3rznarchi4: are you igg or pre-order?10:08
phlixisoon we will say soon10:08
Hellewell, if they move the dates one more time I will have to consider filing for fraud10:09
pp_heh, my tablet is already in germany :D10:09
pdanekcoderus: Stskeeps: How many more developers in Russia are we speaking about? 50? 100?10:09
r0kk3rzHelle: you would have to prove that they were deliberately misleading people, which is probably difficult10:09
r0kk3rzfrom the jolla sailors i have met personally, i dont think they would continue to work for a company that was deliberately misleading people10:10
phlixiand also probably wrong10:10
phlixiit might be (for some very) unfortunate, but i dont think its a fraud at all10:11
phlixithey woulndt have developed sailfish after the igg10:11
Hellewell, it's fraudulent to use the money for anything other then the tablet, so if the money currently doesn't exist anymore, there is your fraud10:11
pdanekIs dual-SIM functionality already supported in Sailfish on Fairphone?10:11
Stskeepsyeah, we all went without wages for 3 months to do a fraud, that's right..10:11
Stskeeps:P10:11
Helleanyway, I don't want to do it10:12
ggabrielsafest thing to do is not expect the money at all10:12
Hellebut it's money I would have bought a different tablet for by now10:12
phlixiHelle this was discussed already more than 100 times, developing the tablet was developing sailfish, thus it was used to develop the tablet...10:12
ggabrielsince that's what you signed up for anyway10:12
phlixiHelle: developing a tablet costs nothing, there are thousands alreaedy developed ready buy, what you need is the software to run on those tablets10:13
phlixireday to buy*10:13
ggabrieli'm personally happy that my contribution did a little bit of a difference to keep sfos alive10:13
ggabrielotherwise we'd have android and ios10:13
phlixiits to late to complain now Helle, you already backed it...10:14
phliximeybe you learned to not blindly back stuff on igg/kickstarter...10:14
phlixii am happy i backed iggg, it kept sf alive...10:15
phlixi(i guess)10:15
ggabrielevery penny/cent helps :)10:15
r0kk3rzphlixi: it also opened the door for tablet community ports10:15
Hellephlixi: well, I did not blindly back it, but from how it was sold to me, it was hardware development cost primarily10:16
ggabrielHelle: where did you deduce that from? the campaign clearly said that sfos 2.0 was going to be developed10:16
ggabrieland it never gave any idea of priorities/money distribution for hw/sw10:16
Helleggabriel: yes, yet 90% of the IGG page talked about HW10:16
Helleand tech specs and such10:16
r0kk3rzi guess they could have been more up-front about the work involved in the project10:17
ggabrielok, what people understand isn't jolla's responsibility10:17
phlixiHelle: as i already wrote above, harware delevopment IS DEVELOPING SOFTWARE,10:17
r0kk3rzrather than opening up about it after the project had basically failed10:17
ggabrielHelle: I suggest you try to port a device, you'll get a clearer view of how things work10:17
ggabrielactually, just read the hadk pdf10:17
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ggabrielit's easy to criticise something that failed and speak in hindsight10:18
r0kk3rzphlixi: for me the sniff test is if people feel like they've been mislead. and more than a few people have expressed this10:18
phlixiHelle so maybe you didnt feel blindly, but you actually where if you asumed what you claim now10:18
mal-_pdanek: dual-sim is not yet supported on fp210:19
phlixir0kk3rz: well, thats partly true, but if someone is not able to tell the difference between red and blue, you say here have this blue thing and he expects a red thing, then claims fraud...10:20
phlixii think you get the idea10:20
ggabrielr0kk3rz: people will always feel like that if the project failed10:20
r0kk3rzphlixi: this is why i said more than one person.10:20
r0kk3rznot everyone reads everything printed10:20
ggabrieleven after reading things carefully, they'll feel betrayed10:21
phlixir0kk3rz: well, there is a lot of people that dont know the difference between red and blue10:21
ggabrieli'm colour blind :P10:21
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r0kk3rzbut if multiples of people start saying the same thing, then maybe there was a lack of adequate communication10:21
phlixicorrect, and those are the ones10:21
phlixiggabriel: that doesnt count, yuo then cant tell the difference if you get the wrong one :D10:21
r0kk3rzim not saying fraud has occured, just a lack of proper communication10:21
ggabrielI have to disagree with that r0kk3rz10:21
ggabrielif you compare this to other project, and successful ones, level of communication was similar10:22
ggabrielthe issue is the outcome10:22
r0kk3rzif project is successful nobody cares what was said10:23
phlixir0kk3rz: and i think a  lot of people complaining ESPECIALLY those who say "but i backed hardware and you developed software" are totally wrong, they dont get it. and those are the people that whould not read anything, they just cry like babies because they did not get what they WANTED, not what they paid for10:23
ggabrielthat's exactly my point10:23
r0kk3rzthe real test is when things fail, how people feel afterwards10:23
ggabrielthey'll feel bad, won't they?10:23
ggabrieland betrayed and whatnot10:23
r0kk3rzbad is not required to be betrayed10:23
r0kk3rzbad can just be disapointed10:23
r0kk3rzi was disapointed, but i dont feel betrayed10:24
ggabrielbut it's up to you to turn from bad to betrayed or disappointed :P10:24
ggabrieli feel betrayed by all those people buying ios/android instead of jolla10:24
ggabrielso I blame them :P10:24
r0kk3rzphlixi: correct some people are just children, and cry when they dont get their toy10:24
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r0kk3rzi dont pay much attention to people like that10:24
ggabrielwell, a lot of us are like that10:25
phlixiwell you did, that exactly the Helle type...10:25
ggabrielit's ok to be emotional every once in a while10:25
hemppisi already got my money back from the tablet10:25
ggabrielhemppis: but you preordered, didn't you?10:25
hemppisyea10:25
ggabrielvery different story :)10:26
r0kk3rzphlixi: i have not seen Helle overly complain of betrayal or throw tantrums like a few on the blog10:26
hemppisyea, waa in the last batch10:26
hemppiswas10:26
ggabrielr0kk3rz: lol, thanks for saying "throw tantrums", instant image of toddler kicking on the floor10:26
r0kk3rzphlixi: but i disagree, not everyone is a hardware/software developer, not everyone knows what goes into these things, this is why communication is important10:27
phlixir0kk3rz but those should not claim that it was wrong to devlop software10:27
r0kk3rzggabriel: this was exactly the picture i get from some of the people on the blog10:27
phlixir0kk3rz: if someone has no clue, he should not say "i was betrayed, i backed hardware, money was spent for software"10:28
phlixir0kk3rz thats the whole point i am talking about the whole time10:28
phlixibecause then its just baby cry10:28
Heller0kk3rz: well, the main issue I am now annoyed with is not so much the lack of product (which, in my IGG still says, is a tablet, not a OS for a tablet, but sure), but also the lack of a proper timeline for getting the money back that has now been promised10:29
phlixiHelle sure it says "tablet" because thats what (if nothing went wrong) you would get, but in order to make the tablet, the work that needs to be done, is developing the software that runs on the tablet...10:30
r0kk3rzphlixi: i guess its also a case of "whats left"10:32
r0kk3rzwhich in this instance, is an OS which helps Jollas agenda, and not much for the backers10:32
phlixiHelle: and the timeline, well, yeah, thats not nice from jolla, just think about every timing they promise" ok, lets double tripple or quadrupel this, maybe that will fit", ...10:32
r0kk3rzbut if you flip it around, and they ship a blank tablet with keys and tools to put android on, and jolla takes the hit, thats a different story10:32
r0kk3rzsure the full project requires both these things, and thats cool. but at the end of the day this failed project aids jolla more than its backers10:33
phlixiwell, if they actually refund, you can buy a cheap nexus and have the same10:33
r0kk3rzthe key there is if10:34
r0kk3rzthey havent committed to a full refund10:34
phlixii dont mind10:34
ggabrielthey did but depending on finance10:37
ggabrielso keep buying jolla stuff or you may not get a refund :P10:37
ggabrieland we'll be left with ios/android woohoo10:37
r0kk3rzggabriel: saying you will do something with conditions applied is not a commitment10:38
r0kk3rzits more a 'we will maybe do this if we can'10:38
ggabrielsemantics10:38
ggabrielyou can commit depending on stuff10:38
ggabrielI do it all the time commercially10:38
ggabriel"I'll do this if you do that"10:38
r0kk3rzggabriel: we have no visibillity on jollas internal finances10:38
ggabrielit's perfectly acceptable10:38
r0kk3rzwithout visibillity there is no commitment10:38
phlixir0kk3rz: thats exactly what i remember from the mer meeting, that jolla tries to refund if they can10:38
ggabrielyou have no control on the condition, no10:39
ggabrielI guess what Jolla said is that investors are happy with refunding10:39
coderuspdanek: exact numbers seems to be available after march10:39
ggabrielbut depending on how well they do10:39
coderusbut it will be two offices in two cities :)10:39
ggabrielbear in mind that investors could well be unhappy and say no refund at all10:39
ggabrielso I take it as a good sign10:39
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ggabrielregardless of my refund making it or not :P10:39
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mornfallI think that the IGG campaign definitely downplayed the software work involved11:19
mornfallthe software was presented as 'almost there' near the start of it11:19
mornfallnot quite the 'we have ducttaped a sfos version which was held together by string to the demo device' that seems to be the case in hindsight11:21
Stskeepsstring? pft, ducttape11:21
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temmi_hooduckt tape in its true form _is_ the final and proper solution to a problem11:27
temmi_hooduct?11:27
Stskeepshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape11:28
temmi_hooanyway himmeli is the correct word we are speaking of11:28
temmi_hooso, duct tape it is then for the tape11:28
temmi_hooi still hold that a temporarily hacked together sw that barely works if you only do the moves on the demo script is not made with duct tape11:29
mornfallsounds like early 90s MS playbook :P11:30
mornfallI still wish I could get a freedreno-based GL stack on SFOS...11:36
Stskeepswe have llvmpipe11:36
Stskeeps:P11:36
temmi_hoohimmeli is made from straw and string11:36
mornfallyeah, that helps :P11:36
mornfalleven ubuntu touch seems to be running primarily on libhybris11:37
Stskeepssure11:37
Stskeepsthere's really not much of alternative if you don't want to base on libhybris or take a major risk with freedreno11:38
mornfallit's pretty sad how a GL driver is a major obstacle for bluetooth low-energy support though11:39
temmi_hoogl as in 3d graphics whizbang hulabaloo?11:40
mornfallyes temmi_hoo, that gl11:40
mornfallthe stack that qualcomm provides only runs with very old linux11:42
mornfallwell, for the soc that's in the jola phone, anyway11:42
temmi_hoothis sounds a lot like "eat our turds you louzy device vendors, we mighty silicon makers provide you with binary poo for software and now you must eat or else"11:42
temmi_hoowhile i was typing that, you said the same thing in more polite form11:43
mornfalljolla*11:43
mornfallnot even silicon, qualcomm is a fabless vendor :)11:44
temmi_hoofunny thing is, now everyone is hailing bcom for opening up as they have so kindly provided the binary poo for raspi foundation and made it possible for individual users to buy more binary poo11:44
mornfallmore like a package of VHDL11:44
mornfall(*and* they get large chunks of their SoCs from elsewhere, like ARM...)11:45
temmi_hoovhdl poo is okay but having open source software as binaryonly poo is not really an option even if you do get to read the sources that produced it11:45
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temmi_hoothe whole point of open sores is that anybody can patch and recompile and reinstall at will (possibly with worde results)11:46
temmi_hooworse11:46
Yanielbut... muh backdoors11:47
mornfallyeah, well, qualcomm isn't a OSS company11:47
mornfallthey give you linux because that's what virtualy all soc customers want11:47
mornfall(because they want to run android on the soc)11:47
temmi_hoothen they should not give you precompiled linux either11:47
temmi_hoothis is about to change, benefits of being open are pretty clear but the behemotian organizations take ages to change course11:50
ggabrieland in the meantime we keep buying their crap :P11:51
temmi_hoosoc vendors that do smaller embedded stuff are currently starting to toy around in being properly open for sw11:51
locusfhttp://developer.sonymobile.com/knowledge-base/open-source/open-devices/how-to-build-and-flash-a-linux-kernel/how-to-build-mainline-linux-for-xperia-devices/ <- it says qcom_defconfig there11:52
temmi_hoooh that looks already better, the binary poo can be linked with your own stuff around it11:54
temmi_hooso, when do you have sfos on your own tablet? :)11:54
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temmi_hooand when does jolla release their proprietary stuff as similar binary poo to muck around without touching innards?11:55
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mornfalltemmi_hoo: that qcom_defconfig doesn't mean there's anything from qcom on there11:55
mornfalltemmi_hoo: linux has its own drivers for most devices on the qcom soc's (if not all)11:56
temmi_hoo... wishful me11:56
mornfallbut you get no support from qcom if you use stuff that didn't come in the devkit11:56
mornfall(freedreno is the OSS GL driver for qualcomm GPUs, but device vendors are apparently afraid to invest in using that instead of the qualcomm binary driver)11:57
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mornfallthis is windows 98 all over again11:59
temmi_hoowell there are already methods of taking in vendor binary poo for modules and userland so i am not seeing a problem from sw side, now the vendors just need to release their binaries in a suitable form instead of a take-all-leave-all selection11:59
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mornfall(at least NT-based systems run most drivers out of the kernel, so they aren't all-powerful)12:00
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locusftemmi_hoo: its already doable via using hadk13:06
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temmi_hoomornfall: we know better, microkernels win, all drivers are just userland processes and nobody needs their computer do actually anything useful while the filesystem is accessing a block device13:11
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temmi_hoolocusf: btw did the console port work?13:11
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phlixisome one keen to recommend a owncloud based notes app for sailfish?13:18
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locusftemmi_hoo: nope13:26
locusftemmi_hoo: I need a 1.8V uart -> usb cable13:26
temmi_hoodang13:27
temmi_hoopartco, ye?13:27
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locusfnot in partco13:28
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locusfgotta order directly from ftdi13:28
locusfwhich means 33.61£ please13:29
locusfffs its just a cable :p13:29
mal-_win 2313:29
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mornfalltemmi_hoo: you haven't used a microkernel system for a long time, have you :)13:33
mornfalllocusf: no it's not just a cable, it's a chip :)13:33
mornfallthe cable is thrown in as a free bonus :P13:33
locusflol still13:34
temmi_hoomornfall: :D well... i'm in the know, i just wanted to remind everyone of the usenet wars that basically started linux in the first place13:35
mornfalltemmi_hoo: android is the only mainstream OS I can think of that's not microkernel(ish)13:35
temmi_hoowell everybody took microish approach to their kernel yet to my knowledge all of them are unpure if you start to academically analyze if they're true microkernel architectures13:36
temmi_hooi'm liking the current situation though13:36
pdanekhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp-tq-HNcBs13:37
pdanekhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G5dNihE6X413:37
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