#jollamobile log for Saturday, 2016-10-01

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pdanekAnyone else excited for upcoming Google press conference on Tuesday?18:28
Nicd-are they releasing something else than just the Pixel phones?18:28
pdanekPixel phones and Daydream VR would be main things I guess18:29
pdanekand then new Chromecast and some new Wifi router from Google18:29
Liekeno, i'm not excited for anything google18:33
Nicd-I'm just waiting for the nougat update18:35
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pdanekNicd-: Do you use Android?18:45
Nicd-yes18:46
tuomasjjrasanenWhich phone? I got Nougat 2 weeks ago for my Nexus 6P18:48
Nicd-tuomasjjrasanen: Moto Z18:49
Nicd-apparently coming in Q418:49
tuomasjjrasanenOk, cool!18:50
tuomasjjrasanenI used Jolla phone previously, but it got broken: there's a stripe in the middle of the screen where touch is not working.18:51
Nicd-mine is not broken but I got fed up with it18:51
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pdanekNicd-: you got fed up? :O why?18:58
Nicd-pdanek: no apps and so many things didn't work. I couldn't rely on the calendar or contacts for example18:59
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pdanekNicd-: And do you use Google services on Moto Z? Gmail, Gcalendar, Gdrive etc.?19:02
Nicd-yep19:02
Nicd-I had google calendar and contact sync on the Jolla, but they never worked properly19:02
evenfallwell, yeah, the platform is half-baked19:03
evenfalland there is basically no development at this point19:03
evenfallso yea, it's pretty bleak19:03
pp_I believe in 2.0.4! :D19:04
Nicd-there were new release notes in TJC but was it pulled back?19:04
Nicd-my Jolla didn't report any update19:04
r0kk3rznot released yet19:04
evenfallNicd-: it's not new, it's just the one that got early access'd 2 months ago19:04
tuomasjjrasanenI got fed up with broken hw, old hw, slow development/maintenance process. I'm not really into apps, so they were not the sore point imo.19:04
evenfallor is there really a new one?19:04
Nicd-anyway, "no apps" was also a big reason19:04
Nicd-evenfall: yeah, a new new one19:04
evenfallwow... didn't show up on early access yet though19:05
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Nicd-"Sorry guys, there is a slight delay in putting 2.0.4 out due to technical problems. We should get them solved in the next 1-2 days."19:05
Nicd-posted 4 days ago19:06
r0kk3rzthey could've gone bust end of last year, and then we wouldnt have anything19:10
pdanekevenfall: why basically no development at this point?19:11
r0kk3rzpdanek: its october and they've only released like 2 updates this year so far19:13
tuomasjjrasanenSluggishness and lack of transparency. Not that I consider Google's business transparent at all, but the promise of transparency/openess helped me (and I guess quite many other Jolla users too) to tolerate the half-baked platform (as evenfall put it).19:14
pdanekI never seen Jola transparent19:16
pdaneknot even in the beginning19:16
pdanekJolla*19:16
tuomasjjrasanenNor do I. But I interpreted their agenda that way in the beginning.19:17
r0kk3rzthey're the most transparent mobile os company ive ever seen19:18
r0kk3rzi cant jump on irc and chat with android engineers. or samsung ones19:18
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Nicd-as for apps, it's 3 years now and there's still no way to make a paid app. there's no way to browse the app store without the phone. there's no way for devs to see and reply to comments on their apps. as an app dev that really annoye me19:19
Nicd-reply to comments without using the phone's store app* I mean19:19
phlixii you really want to make a paid app, no one is stopping you19:20
evenfallpdanek: well, how many updates in the last year?19:20
Nicd-phlixi: there is no payment infrastructure19:20
evenfallpdanek: and they aren't any bigger in terms of features than they were back when they were a monthly thing19:21
evenfallpdanek: (well, for the 4 or so months it kept to the schedule :p)19:21
r0kk3rzNicd-: so bring your own :P19:22
Nicd-r0kk3rz: yeah, that's really going to entice the app developers19:22
r0kk3rzjust because google charges you 30% to use theirs...19:22
pdanek r0kk3rz: the IRC point if fair I guess :) but I think Ubuntu Phone  project is more transparent then :) and they have way better phones, their new Meizu is gorgeous19:23
r0kk3rzpaid apps its a shitshow anyway19:23
r0kk3rzpdanek: yeah i suppose you have a point there19:23
tuomasjjrasanenr0kk3rz: I don't know, to me Fairphone seems quite transparent. I considered that for a while after Jolla, but then decided to go first with the most androidish Android to see if it's any good.19:23
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pdanektuomasjjrasanen: most androidish Android? you mean Nexus phone?19:24
r0kk3rztuomasjjrasanen: in what ways? fairphone are doing good things i agree, but i dont really see how its much different to jolla19:24
mornfalland yeah, I agree Jolla's never been "transparent"19:24
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tuomasjjrasanenpdanek: yep19:25
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Nicd-r0kk3rz: an ad framework or in-app purchase framework would be nice too. of course open source people don't like it but developers need money too, or you will end up with far fewer options. (not that it would have saved the situation alone, but it would have been a good thing to have)19:25
pdanekhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOK1T8ZmrjM19:28
pdanekthat's actually on older phone19:28
pdanekthe best one is: Meizu PRO 519:28
pdanekbut it's latest OTA 14 release, Ubuntu Phone development seems to be quite quick19:29
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pdanekAnd Meizu seems loyal to Ubuntu over the years, which is good.19:29
pdanekAnd Ubuntu edition of Meizu MX6 is coming soon19:30
r0kk3rzpdanek: looks cool, i might have to build it for my tablet19:31
pdanekbtw Plasma Mobile is no longer based on Ubuntu Touch but on CyanogenMod/AOSP19:32
r0kk3rzpdanek: but how would you survive on ubuntu without android apps?19:33
pdanekr0kk3rz: I wouldn't, that why I don't have it :)19:34
r0kk3rzhehe19:34
pdanekr0kk3rz: but it's only matter of time until it will get such support, regardless what their developers are saying19:34
pdanekif they ever want to get into hands of normal people19:34
tigelipdanek: loyal and loyal.. iirc it was just some time ago when they announced that they are not making ubuntu touch-devices anymore19:35
tigeliargh.. it was not meizu19:35
tigelithe other one :D19:36
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pdanektigeli: Meizu keeps making19:36
pdanekyep19:36
tigelithe BQ.. it as19:36
tigeliwas19:36
pdanekright19:37
pdanekBQ was always meh19:37
pdanekMeizu was always the real flagship brand for Ubuntu  :)19:37
pdanekthey make great phones for cheap price19:37
pdanekunlike Jolla which was always kind of average phone for above average price19:37
wmaronemeizu does their own boards, Jolla had to outsource it19:38
pdanekyes19:38
pdanekI don't blame19:38
pdanekbut end user doesn't care19:38
wmaroneand smaller runs means higher per-part prices, so you have to knock it all down a hair19:38
r0kk3rzpdanek: 'only a matter of time' not sure about that, even microsoft didnt really stand a chance19:38
pdanekJolla had perhaps too big dream19:39
pdanekin harsh mobile world19:39
Aardthe dream was fine, just several people should never have worked for jolla19:39
pdanekbecause Ubuntu Phone would also not survive without being backed by money from Canonical19:39
pdanekso if Ubuntu was in Jolla's shoes, it would be dead by now19:39
pdanekAard: that I don't know, you know better in this :)19:40
Aardit obviously was risky, but some guys made sure to run it into the ground19:40
r0kk3rzyeah mismanagement is never good19:41
pdanekAard: do you know btw what's up with the Russian development? Is now development restored back to the speed with team in Russia?19:42
tigelipdanek: have you seen lots of commits from the russian team?19:43
Aardno idea, but even if they get additional people (which I doubt) they'd still have troubles due to losing a lot of the knowledge19:43
pdanekIf things are bad, what's the point then keeping the project alive?19:44
pdanekFor small company like Jolla, either they go forward quickly, or they should shut it down.19:44
Aardapart from brisbane and a few people in tampere basically all senior developers are gone. all senior qa and integration guys are gone19:44
pdanekObviously is startup like Jolla doesn't develop quickly enough, they will just burn more millions every year and die eventually anyway19:44
tango_it's a pity all these companies don't back the same frigging product19:45
tango_firefox + canonica + jolla could push the same thing, at most with minor higher-level differences, and everyone would benefit19:45
r0kk3rztango_: or at least try and maintain some level of compatibillity with apps or something19:45
tango_there's no reason firefoxos couldn't just be an additional layer on top of mer19:46
tango_instead of the B2G crapola19:46
tigelitango_: I don't see canonical working together with anyone :D19:46
Aardtango_: at the beginning there was a political decision by canonical not to cooperate with jolla. we'd have loved to work with them.19:46
tango_Aard: I'm not saying it's jolla's fault19:46
Aardthey changed their opinion something like 2 years into the project, when it was clear that ubuntu touch isn't really working out, and ended up adopting some of our middleware19:47
tango_no shit19:47
tango_somebody needs to go there and whoop somebody with the Big Foam Cluebat, repeatedly, while saying "we told you so, we told you so"19:47
tango_but yeah, canonical is pretty good at NIH syndrome19:48
pdanektango_: I agree, just look at Canonical developing Mir when everyone else was going for Wayland :)19:48
AardI had the first contact with canonical in I think summer or autumn 201219:48
tango_I'm actually more surprised by mozilla though19:48
r0kk3rzyeah jolla, being the smallest of them all, has the most to gain from cooperating19:48
Aardr0kk3rz: well, oddly enough we were the ones delivering best at that point. might have been related to us hiring people who worked on mobile devices before19:48
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pdanekbut the mobile market is though, looks at Windows Phone, which is now very mature platform with millions of great apps, yet their market share is down by half in most of countries since last year19:50
pdanektough*19:50
tigelithere are no millions of great mobile apps :D19:51
pdanek:D19:51
r0kk3rzpdanek: the bigger the company the more market share they need19:51
pdanekthousands sorry19:51
Aardjolla could've been profitable in a few niche markets (like security), but for management and marketing that was only interesting to talk about, not actually put resources into19:51
tango_pdanek: meh, I'm not a big fan of wayland, and I wouldn't be surprised if redhat had shown to be uncooperative just as much as canonical, which then led the latter to try the mir way19:51
r0kk3rzselling millions of devices in a quarter isnt bad19:51
r0kk3rzbut it is if you're microsoft19:52
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pdanekAard: Sailfish doesn't even have any role based access control, while Android and Ubuntu Touch both have it, so security was never really there much19:53
pdanekAard: privacy maybe, but not security19:53
tango_Aard: can I get a sticker from jolla for not asking the money back for the tablet? 8-D19:53
pdanekAard: but maybe I'm wrong, why else would Turing phone choose Sailfish then if not for security19:53
tango_pdanek: privacy not even, not with closed source parts of the software stack at least19:54
Aardpdanek: that's exactly what I'm saying, they liked to talk about it, but were not interested in actually doing anything. and some improvements would've been really trivial to make19:54
tango_btw I despise the android security model19:54
tango_it's too restrictive19:54
pdanekbut TRI is very mysterious thing anyway19:54
pdanek:D19:54
tango_not having the possibility for root access = fail19:54
Aardpdanek: the whole turing thing is a marketing stunt, currently the only bit of security you get on sailfish is that it's obscure enough that nobody bothers19:55
tango_(yes I know that's up to the vendors. still.)19:55
tango_static-analyze all the things!19:55
pdanekAard: have you seen their new 12GB RAM and dual CPU phone?19:56
tigelipdanek: nobody has19:56
pdanekDo you think that their employees are actually serious about it?19:56
r0kk3rzAard: thats a shame. basic security stuff is something that anyone with half a clue expects these days19:56
Aardpdanek: I just got told about it, didn't even read the article myself19:56
r0kk3rzpdanek: employees? they have a mothballed factory in Salo, i didnt see any employees19:57
pdanekr0kk3rz: so current Turing phones which were shipped were all made in China?19:58
r0kk3rzits entirely possible19:58
pdanekr0kk3rz: what's the point of releasing their new phone hype for next year then?19:58
pdanekto make laugh of people? or?19:58
r0kk3rzhype19:58
pdanekwhat is hype good for?19:58
pdanekgain investors?19:58
r0kk3rzin the interview he gave he basically said it was all bullshit that he didnt expect anyone to actually believe19:59
pdanekoh really :D19:59
pdanekI didn't know he had interview19:59
r0kk3rztheres a link on tmo in the thread19:59
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lpotterif someone ported snappy to jolla, it would be a lot better security... as it uses apparmor and containers20:00
lpotterI would do it f I had the time20:00
r0kk3rzthere was some chat about this in a recent meeting20:01
r0kk3rzi think someone was looking into selinux20:01
pdanekor grsecurity would be fine20:02
pdanekhttp://www.techradar.com/news/phone-and-communications/the-most-powerful-smartphones-ever-conceived-are-coming-from-a-company-you-ve-never-heard-of-132875220:05
lpotteror snappy, which is multiplatform20:05
pdanekthere are pieces of the interview20:05
Aardgrsecurity doesn't really make sense for that kind of hardening, and especially not when you're tied to a vendor kernel20:06
Aardselinux we were looking into last year, so if they're smart they're building on our work from back then20:06
lpotterhttp://snapcraft.io/20:07
r0kk3rzlpotter: got a preference between snappy and flatpak?20:07
wmaronearen't snaps currently canonical only?20:07
lpottercanonical is driving the development, but it is open source, and runs on other distros20:08
wmaronewell sure, but the same is true for Mir20:08
wmaronealso, CLA20:08
lpotterr0kk3rz: dont know much about flatpak, but I am biased towards snappy20:08
r0kk3rzlpotter: are you developing for canonical these days?20:09
lpotteryup20:09
pdanekis anyone here actually using Ubuntu Phone? or following their development? Do you think they will be way ahead of Sailfish in 2 years time?20:09
phlixihardly imaginable20:10
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r0kk3rzlpotter: oh nice! i hope they treat you well20:10
lpotterpdanek: that depends of course. we are putting resources into snappy at the moment20:10
pdaneklpotter: who is "we"? :O20:11
lpotterr0kk3rz: yep. and they havent missed a pay yet!20:11
lpotterpdanek: canonical20:11
r0kk3rzlpotter: woo!20:11
pdaneklpotter so you're saying that ubuntu phone developers are not dedicated team? it's canonical using their resources to move into most important projects as they need?20:12
Aardlpotter: how's CI nowadays?20:12
lpotterpdanek: there still is a 'touch/unity8' team. its more about convergence devices20:13
lpotterAard: slow. I miss jolla's streamlined20:13
Aardlpotter: still have the old team, we're now just making developers lifes in other companies better20:13
lpotterbut ubuntu has more targets20:13
pdanekI don't believe convergence will even be mainstream20:14
pdanekpeople don't have monitors laying around anymore20:14
lpotterpdanek: they have tv's20:14
pdanekoh! I didn't realize that, I haven't had a TV myself for last 8 years :D20:14
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lpotterAard: cool. good to hear20:16
pdanekDid anyone here use PalmOS before? Do you miss it?20:16
Aardpdanek: here!20:17
Aardit's rather sad that basically almost all calendar and addressbook implementation on mobile platforms nowadays still suck more than the palmos one 15 years ago20:18
pp_I had a Palm III for a while20:18
pp_Great tetris :D connectivity was so bad (was it irda) that I didn't find it useful20:19
AardI had a palm Vx since I think 2001, and between 2004 and 2011 was using various palm smartphones20:19
pdanekAard: until 2011? wow!20:21
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lpotterI interviewed one time to work on webos... does that count?20:21
pdaneknah, webos doesn't I guess :D20:22
Aardpdanek: I got a n900 as bonus for good work from nokia, until then I was using a palm centro. and several other palm phone models before that20:22
pdanekAard: I liked the bigger Treo models20:23
pdanekand they were beautiful devices too IMO20:24
AardI had a treo 680 before switching to the centro. centro is basically the 680 hardware in a different form factor, with some new software features20:24
pdanekAard: Is Jolla still your primary phone?20:26
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Aardyes, but I never updated it after 1.1.7. I nowadays carry an additional android phone for some things, but I hate the UI, so it's not a full replacement20:27
lpotterAard: why did you stop updating it?20:28
AardI can't stand the new homescreen. it's almost as bad as androids20:28
lpotterya, I miss the old one20:29
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Aardwe should've offered both homescreens and let the user select, but there was no support for that internally20:31
pdanekAard: if you had to pick one UI except Sailfish one, which one would it be? among mobile oses20:32
Aardpdanek: I'd get my centro out again20:32
Aardif you do a UI which requires buttons then at least do it properly and give me a complete keyboard20:33
r0kk3rzi got used to it, the new events view is great20:34
pdanekiOS doesn't have those buttons20:34
r0kk3rzthe home screen is a little meh, but its not too bad20:35
Aardit still has that one big button20:35
pp_N9 is beautiful too :-)20:35
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r0kk3rzAard: the big button isnt even a button anymore20:35
pp_shame all that polish was on dead-end tech, and owned by microsoft anyway20:35
Aardr0kk3rz: still requires me to move my fingers all over the place20:36
Aardfor palmos I had buttons all over the place too -- but at least I could select them by keyboard20:36
pdanekAard: I don't even get ahy Android in its 7th version already still didn't get rid of those buttons20:37
pdanekthey got rid of the settings button long ago, I expected they will get rid of the rest too20:37
pdaneksure apps would need to be modified accordingly, but that would happen rather quickly20:38
pdanekcould be that one version would support both20:38
pdanekand then another would get rid of buttons20:38
Aardwell, they had that attempt at virtual buttons at some point, you could just use that for legacy apps, and new apps come without buttons20:39
pdanekI worry that one day Android will just die and get overtaken by something better just like Symbian and Palm did20:39
pdanekor, maybe not worry20:39
pdanekbut I'm disappointed that companies which grow large enough lack the innovation20:39
AardI'm not sure if that'll happen again, now the market is that much bigger, and the big players have absurd cash reserves20:40
Nicd-like Nokia had? :P20:40
Aardway more20:40
Aardand nokia still had a lot of money when they sold the phone business20:41
pdanekAard: so what happened to the money? they still have it?20:42
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Aardnokia still exists, and is a profitable business20:42
pdanekbecause I keep seeing rumors about Nokia going to sell Android phones again20:42
r0kk3rzpdanek: they also get some billions from microsoft20:42
Nicd-pdanek: it's not just rumors20:42
pdanekAard: Do they still make firewalls? Nokia firewalls was big thing back in the day, but I haven't seen any long time20:42
Aardthey're just granting the right to use the nokia brand to some other company20:42
Nicd-afaik they're manufactured by Foxconn and designed by HMD Global20:43
Aardno idea if they still do that. they're now one of the biggest, if not the biggest vendor for mobile backend infrastructure20:43
pdanekAard: oh ok, so it's won't be the good old Nokia quality phone made in Finland :) you will just pay for brand and the UI :)20:43
pp_check point bought that business iirc20:43
pdanekI still think the Google Pixel phones will be best Android phone out there20:43
Aardalso nokia still has the complete patent stash, that never went to microsoft. microsoft only got licenses20:44
phlixiand they will be sending info about you multiple times per second to google. great20:44
pdanekAard: oh really20:44
Aardalso it's unclear how much of harmattan rights went to microsoft, it's entirely possible that nokia still owns all the code from that as well20:44
pdanekSo do you think Nokia Android phones will be big thing again?20:45
pp_or MS required a "nuke source code from orbit" deal :-)20:45
pp_polished linux at that time must have been a scary thing20:46
pp_but it's dead-end code, mostly?20:46
Aardpdanek: I guess some people will buy it for the brand, but I doubt nokia itself will ever go back to making phones. too low profit margin nowadays, supplying most of the backend infrastructure makes them profit from growing mobile market as well20:47
pdanekright20:47
Aardpp_: very unlikely. for example, the microsoft exchange support in jolla1 was harmattan code, licensed from nokia20:47
Aardmost of the code is nowadays useless (especially due to it not yet being qml), but a few things like the exchange stuff would still be usable20:48
Aardand a lot of the harmattan stuff under UI layer was opensourced, was what made jolla possible, and parts of it are now even used by ubuntu20:49
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pp_video calls with skype wasn't allowed to see daylight after n900 (ok, underlying tech changed too)20:55
pp_but that must have been embarassing20:55
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pdanek1Although I'm concerned about Google privacy issue, I still use most of Google products as gmail, google calendar, google drive, google hangouts, photos etc.... for convenience and also I was gmail user since the invitation-only ages and I'm just too used to it20:57
pdanek1so due to this fact, perhaps using Android makes most sense for me20:57
pdanek1I'm even surprised that I'm still resist to use Chrome and keep to Firefox both on desktop and phone, because Chrome has better integration of google services20:58
Aardpp_: wasn't skype video working on n9?20:59
pdanek1but similar as for gmail, I used firefox from its first version.... so I'm very nostalgic person in technology :)20:59
Aardchrome doesn't have proper emacs keybindings, and handles way less concurrent tabs than firefox21:01
pp_nope, but that was after feb11 :-)21:01
pp_I'm sure it was working21:01
pp_windows phone had it working years later21:01
Aardno skype on jolla again was a political thing from skype management, their technicians would've loved to work with us21:07
pp_yup, wp got skype in 201421:07
pp_must have been some awful middleware to make it that difficult21:07
phlixii bet the eula says "no third party clients allowed" and thus pretty easy to lock out jolla21:08
pp_s/skype/video skype/21:09
Aardfor jolla it wouldn't have been that complicated with skype cooperation, basically a bunch of arm binaries from them, and updated telepathy handling on jolla side (which iirc existed already partially for desktop)21:09
pp_and probably biggest reason that didn't happen was that it was a lot more complicated on windows :-)21:10
kimmolii would like to get rid of skype (for business) but it is too deep integrated in 36521:11
AardI didn't really do much with skype after giving up the n9, and completely dropped it after they made pulseaudio mandatory on linux desktops. I gave my old accounts to my wife so she can use up skype credit there21:12
pp_oh dear, I just remembered how awful lync (no SfB on mac, yet, well maybe a beta since I've been OoO for a while) is21:13
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