#jollamobile log for Tuesday, 2016-11-29

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snow_ 810:47
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r0kk3rzhah slush press release got leaked early10:56
r0kk3rzdecent article in TC as well https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/29/jollas-sailfish-os-now-certified-as-russias-first-android-alternative/10:57
r0kk3rzi hope the comment about switching to corporate and government projects, and not consumer products is not entirely accurate11:01
r0kk3rzthat would suck for us in the community11:01
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tadzikI guess that means that caldav/carddav and other business stuff will get a lot more development and QA now :D11:03
r0kk3rz"Essentially we maintain the open source and the open Sailfish", Open Sailfish huh11:03
tadzik. o O ( open solaris )11:03
r0kk3rztadzik: the guys are working on better *dav stuff, its true11:04
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r0kk3rzhm, not sure whether this is good news or bad news11:11
tadzikХорошо11:12
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rigor0kk3rz: this is excellent news :) An institutional supporter11:53
rigoand if it gets really bad, there should be a split from the .fi and the .ru version where on one we remove the big firewall :)11:54
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r0kk3rzrigo: even the bit where antti says theres no market for consumer sailfish devices?12:13
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r0kk3rzi guess if this corporate/govenment pivot doesnt take then its game over anyway12:33
Nicd-yeah, pretty bad news for consumers12:33
Nicd-wonder how long updates for consumer devices (especially JP-1301) will continue12:35
larstiqnot aware of any reason to stop those now12:35
Yanielguess I'll keep mine powered on on my desk until the usb port dies completely or updates stop12:39
Yanielbets on which one will happen first?12:39
Nicd-SIM card holder dies first ;)12:39
Yanielit doesn't have a SIM12:39
Yaniel(any more)12:39
r0kk3rzstopping updates didnt stop those still using n9s and n900s12:40
tadzikthey were a bit more open though, no?12:41
r0kk3rzyeah true, oh well so long as they make good on the opensourcing promises we can continue with ported devices12:43
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rigor0kk3rz: LOL, the bit about "there's no market for consumer sailfish devices" is not very hard to predict if there are no consumer sailfish devices as all our markets are offer - driven :)13:07
rigor0kk3rz: or should I say :((13:07
rigor0kk3rz: the entire thing was built upon the reality that the N9 was more successful than any other phone despite the fact that MS even tried negative advertisement13:08
r0kk3rzrigo: yeah, im reminded of my own prediction this time last year tbh13:08
rigoand all multiplicators are already using jollas. But they can't get one. Those people only have so much time and are a bit less enthousiastic than me13:10
larstiqrigo: you could place an order for say 50k devices13:10
rigo ... better"Now they can't get one"13:10
rigolarstiq: or you could negotiate with fairphone and create a branch and sell branded things13:10
larstiq...13:12
r0kk3rzrigo: clearly fairphone are unwilling to release a sailfish fp213:12
r0kk3rzand the price puts a lot of people off13:12
rigoor with the turing phone for high end customers13:13
larstiqrigo: believe me that we are trying to establish an income13:13
rigor0kk3rz: the same people buy an iphone for 800€ for their kids13:13
rigolarstiq: believe me, I know that cooperations are you only way out :) And I know how to write those contracts13:14
r0kk3rzrigo: if you know how to replicate apples success, im sure jolla would like to hear about it13:14
rigoI'm about to make a concept :)13:15
rigohm, I should stop wasting my time here .... ;-))13:15
rigobut the first thing I would do would be to put fairphones with SailfishOS on them in the jolla store and offer nextcloud services guaranteed from Finland for calendar and file syncro for linux users for a monthly fee13:17
rigodon't expect millions, Every stream starts with a small source13:17
rigofor an experience dev, those things should be done in a week. If the fairphone guys are friendly, the deal should be done within 2 month13:18
rigothere you would have a jolla shop that provides things13:18
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rigofrom there, one can develop B2B relations, and there I have a concept that I won't put in IRC13:19
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r0kk3rzim sure they have discussed internally the whole 'be a service provider like google' idea13:28
larstiqrigo: good luck with your endeavours13:30
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rigor0kk3rz: NOT like google. Jolla is the haven for those people who have uncovered the uncanny potential of google13:54
Hartzisadly 99,99% of the people won't tolerate "known issues" of sfos. Still long way to go..13:55
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r0kk3rzrigo: yes obviously, but still its not a particularly unheard of idea14:00
rigoHartzi: wrong, 99% of people still tolerate android devices despite the fact that they are rubbish14:01
Nicd-but they're not rubbish14:02
rigoHartzi: I agree that 99.99% of devs don't like "known issues" at all14:02
rigoNicd-: do you use a google calendar and a gmail address? If yes, you're right and jolla is the wrong device for you. This is like using an android device with an apple phone14:03
rigoapple computer14:03
Nicd-I have an Android device and an Apple computer :D14:04
rigook, disqualified for further discussion :-))14:04
Nicd-I switched to Android a few months ago and I'm pretty impressed at how good it is14:04
rigoand how often do you have it charged?14:04
Nicd-sure it has problems but it's pretty stupid to dismiss it as "rubbish" because you don't like Google or something14:04
Nicd-rigo: less often than Jolla?14:05
rigooh, that's new14:05
rigobut you haven't answered the gmail question14:05
rigobut I can answer it for you14:05
Hartzirigo: well people can manage their thing and are able to use apps they need. That simple doen't work on sfos yet.14:05
Nicd-yes I do use them. google contact and calendar sync was a pain point on SFOS14:06
rigoof course14:06
HartziI need to reboot my VANILLA jolla C every day because it's just too unstable.14:06
rigoI would expect my SFOS to sync with KOLAB or nextcloud14:06
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rigoHartzi: mine has normally uptimes of a week or more14:07
rigoHartzi: ok, I do not use android apps14:08
Hartziyou dont propably use any android apps14:08
Hartziyes14:08
Hartziexactly14:08
rigobut don't expect Volvo to provide you a better Mercedes14:08
rigohrrrm, Peugeot :)14:08
HartziI expect volvo to do all the same things that mercedes does14:09
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Hartziwith different UX14:09
rigoHartzi: then get yourself sold by google14:09
rigoyou'll get everything because there is the ad revenue stream14:09
rigoor go iOS and be unable to share music via bluetooth14:10
Hartziseriously. Even the basic things are problematic with sfos14:10
Nicd-rigo: I haven't heard many good things about SFOS's owncloud integration either. and SFOS's strategy can't be that it does not work with any products of major companies. I don't have the time or patience to set up and maintain my own (own|next)cloud instance14:10
* rigo hasn't encountered difficulties, except for those data krakens (FB etc)14:10
Hartziit's like kar that have only three wheels. Flips now and then. There is nothing wrong to demand stable UX.14:11
Hartzicar*14:11
rigoNicd-: indeed, the discussion shows the vulnerabilities. And if there is no integrated solution, there can't be user take up14:11
Nicd-Hartzi: reliant robin is best car14:11
rigoHartzi: get yourself a Siemens S55 if you want stability :)14:13
Aards55 has the drawback of it easily losing its keys14:14
Nicd-rigo: that's a pretty bad attitude14:14
rigoNicd-: and re-read my suggestion. I said they should create/maintain a nextcloud account for you in Finland14:15
Hartzirigo: let's keep the ancient relics in museums. You would't like to drive T-Ford either.14:15
Nicd-my Android phone is more stable than my Jolla was14:15
Nicd-rigo: but I don't want a nextcloud account. and who pays for it?14:16
rigoNicd-: and you're happy google user. There is nothing to gain for you by a jolla phone. It is useless for jolla to compete with google on that level14:16
rigo jolla needs a distinct value proposition14:17
rigoand that is security and privacy14:17
rigook, not there yet, but the potential is there.14:17
Hartzisounds like jolla need people more than people needs jolla..14:17
Nicd-there are things to gain. like the gesture based UI which I liked very much. and full and easy access via terminal for example14:17
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Aardrigo: there's years of work, and jolla pretty much lost two years because management didn't believe in the 'secure phone' thing, until they got forced to do that by russia now14:18
Nicd-I can be a google and jolla user at the same time and get the best of both (I did for a good while)14:18
rigoNicd-: but that's part of the philosophy behind. In android, you'll always be server - controlled and in iOS you'll only get to toast apple toasts14:18
rigoAard: +114:19
Nicd-what does server-controlled mean here?14:19
rigoAard: and the management says "have no users" after massively fending off users. Which is hilarious and the reason why I love it :)14:19
rigoNicd-: ever heard about a thing called web?14:20
r0kk3rzAard: yeah its funny, the two customers of jolla (russians and turing) both want security over everything else14:20
rigor0kk3rz: and AFAIK, they have no alternative14:20
Aardr0kk3rz: other leads we had back then would've been about security as well (which now can't happen anymore), but no, that's not a valid direction to go14:21
Nicd-rigo: cut your sarcastic attitude14:21
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rigoNicd-: ok, seriously, the designed is focused on data collection and less on user control. This makes much sense for a certain type of consumer devices. And much less sense if you want to be the master at home14:40
rigoyou can see this in dialogs, the type of preferences, omissions and the like14:40
Nicd-thing is, I'm being pragmatic. I can do more things with it than I could with my Jolla. more things that matter to me14:41
rigooh yes, and the pragmatic are exactly the type of people that create the dynamics that got us there. They swallow whatever collateral caveat not immediately palpable if the thing does the basic functions well.14:42
rigoNicd-: for me this wasn't the case as I had bad android hardware and this terrible android lag14:43
rigoI still have that lag for the android apps on my jolla14:43
rigoif I use them14:43
rigoso I must admit that my jollaC is as stable and well functioning as my N9 was. Except for the camera14:44
Nicd-Well what can you do? I gave Jolla a chance for 3 years. In the end I couldn't trust it14:47
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r0kk3rzyou have to wonder, if blackberry wasnt successful with running a business / government oriented model, what chance goes jolla have14:47
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Nicd-If you don't trust Google you can just root your phone and run some ROM without G services14:47
rigoNicd-: sure you could do that. Other may want to buy a different phone14:48
rigoOthers even14:48
Nicd-Didn't have much of a choice since sfos was finished for me14:49
Nicd-At least for the time being14:49
rigoThe jollaC was sold within 15min and the management claims there are no users. I wonder what they are looking for14:49
abransonthat's a deadend though - if you buy things that you need to make unauthorized modifications to, then you're still agreeing and condoning their deal14:49
abransonone day you may not be able to root phones anymore14:49
rigoTCG rulz :)14:49
abransonat least make sure you buy a phone that accepts that as part of the deal :)14:49
Nicd-They can't remove rooting from an existing device14:51
Nicd-Of course you have to check it when buying a new one14:51
r0kk3rzrigo: selling 1500 devices is not selling 50k devices a month14:51
AardNicd-: they can, see playstation :p14:52
rigoNicd-: my friends from CCC told me iOS is pretty secure until you root it14:52
rigothe challenge is to have a phone and root it too :)14:52
abransonrooting is just such a self-defeating action14:53
rigor0kk3rz: you need to sell 50k devices if you have your device built in China and if your fix costs are too high14:53
abransonyou kill your support options, sometimes warranty. and you support phones that need rooting to be useful.14:53
rigor0kk3rz: both can be changed for a branch of the business14:53
Nicd-abranson: I haven't rooted btw, I don't need it14:54
r0kk3rzwhere else would you build device other than china?14:54
Nicd-Finland :D like Turing's mystery factory14:55
rigor0kk3rz: either you get NSA backdoors or Chinese backdoors14:56
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r0kk3rzNicd-: borrowing santas elves no doubt, thats the real reason for the factory in salo14:56
rigor0kk3rz: at some point in time you may want something else. HERE is the best example that it can work14:56
r0kk3rzrigo: i'll take the chinese backdoors thanks14:57
rigor0kk3rz: than an android phone from china for $$25 is just fine14:57
rigo:)14:58
r0kk3rzthe jollac is fine for now15:00
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r0kk3rzrigo: i look forward to seeing your phone/service startup btw15:06
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rigor0kk3rz: I will not personnally make such startup as I have already too many paid jobs, but I will try to contribute to make it happen16:07
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Siddegreat news today about the russian deal16:58
Siddea small hope for the future of sailfish16:59
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SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, ping17:00
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EyeAJolla )0!1@ )0h17:01
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SebthreeBQM10HDEyeA, Jolla Jolla  Jolla17:01
EyeA)0h jollian17:02
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r0kk3rzrigo: why so precious about your secret sauce concept then?17:39
sledgesSebthreeBQM10HD: pong, thanks again for inviting at the Linux presentation day Bristol:) was good time!17:41
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, yes indeed17:42
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, I wanted to ask you about FODEM :D17:42
SebthreeBQM10HDplus currently disapointed about something.... reallly17:42
SebthreeBQM10HDbut that's it's own story and thing17:42
SebthreeBQM10HDthat discusing in two other channels17:42
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, your going to FOSDEM agian yes ?17:42
sledgesSebthreeBQM10HD: most probably going:)17:45
sledgessorry to hear17:45
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, did you meet the chakra guy?17:46
SebthreeBQM10HDlast month?17:46
SebthreeBQM10HDsurely you did ?17:46
sledgesyes, Samir17:46
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SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, ok would you be intereted in travlling with us17:48
SebthreeBQM10HDto FODEM17:48
SebthreeBQM10HDbut17:48
SebthreeBQM10HDprobably a bit earlier as well, as in the Thursday evening17:49
SebthreeBQM10HDyes flying from Bristol17:49
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sledgesSebthreeBQM10HD: i'll email you on this tonight/tomorrow, we (lbt, vgrade, stephg) usually took eurostar on a friday17:51
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sledgeslet's gauge interest:) also cc ggabriel r0kk3rz  and others in UK:)17:52
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, oh Jolla peoplle you mean?  from down here it's eaier to fly thoug17:52
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, also Samir is from Belgium anwyay, so will stay longer and meet his parants  after that's his plan17:52
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, but I intend to go back on the Monday as usual17:53
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SebthreeBQM10HDMonday evenng17:53
sledgesSebthreeBQM10HD: community people17:53
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, so you would travel to London area first, to travel with them and on train ?17:55
SebthreeBQM10HDeasier to just fly from down here17:55
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r0kk3rzsledges: no fosdem for me this year unfortunately17:58
rigor0kk3rz: because I need to write it up first. I talked it through with Stskeeps, but it is too complex to explain without a background document17:59
SebthreeBQM10HDr0kk3rz, not sure who you are, but how come?17:59
sledgesbut you get free drinks on eurostar:))) ticket includes uk  train changes, and walk from train station to Brussels'  city centre17:59
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sledgesi also will need to attend a pantomime show thursday..17:59
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ghosalmartinerm maybe?18:00
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, I didn' know about the drinks18:00
sledgesr0kk3rz: pity:/18:00
SebthreeBQM10HD,but it' still easier and quicker to  fly from dow here18:00
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SebthreeBQM10HDthat' two hour aleady18:00
SebthreeBQM10HDto get to Lonon18:00
SebthreeBQM10HDLondon18:00
r0kk3rzsledges: aye, i'll be in Aus so its not all bad18:00
sledgeswarmer:))18:01
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, what's  pantomse show  ?18:01
SebthreeBQM10HDa pantomine ?]18:01
sledgesSebthreeBQM10HD: amdram18:01
SebthreeBQM10HDpantomines are or kids mstly18:01
sledgesyes18:01
SebthreeBQM10HDfor18:01
sledgessorry, cold+fingerterm18:01
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, oh your going to be the dame in a pantamine interesting18:01
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges dresed up as a woman18:02
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sledgesSebthreeBQM10HD: and you'll be dressedup as a man:D18:07
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sledgesis for kids if you don't get stashed puns:))18:08
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SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, PC World ha taken my Mum  for a ride it sems really18:09
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, oh and UEFI ah!18:09
SebthreeBQM10HDI think that's the saying,   they taken a lot of money18:10
SebthreeBQM10HDand for not a partiualy geat deal it  seems, basialy18:10
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sledgesuse the 15days cooling off?;)18:17
sledgesr0kk3rz: yep, .au will be wArm at least, fosdem -- ARM18:18
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, my Mum paid qute a lot for a lap top at pc world, for my litle bother18:18
sledgesok i stop now18:18
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, pluss all that add on rubbish they try and sell18:18
SebthreeBQM10HDso the Macafee and care plan and uh18:19
SebthreeBQM10HDturn out the macafee wan't paid for, so even more money then  so what wa that addiotnal 225 the care plan ?18:19
r0kk3rzsledges: hehe w'ARM18:19
SebthreeBQM10HDsledges, then I wen to daul boot the lap top with Linux of course, and bump into issues ah!18:20
SebthreeBQM10HDUEFI ah!18:20
SebthreeBQM10HDwant above18:20
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r0kk3rzSebthreeBQM10HD: good luck buying a machine without uefi these days18:21
SebthreeBQM10HDro18:21
SebthreeBQM10HDr0kk3rz, well ye thre's that18:21
sledgesghosalmartin: cool you might be in! hmm why i can't tab-complete you?18:21
SebthreeBQM10HDas well18:21
SebthreeBQM10HDunless going wih specific smal oem18:22
SebthreeBQM10HDsuch as entroware in the uk18:22
sledgesheh "you tab-complete me" lol18:22
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SebthreeBQM10HDthen al the new lap top are UEI18:22
sledgesSebthreeBQM10HD: i tamed me Lenovo L440 uefi to get arch in18:22
bennypr0fane_Hi, my Jolla is totally not ringing. I don't have it silenced, but calls just don't make any noise! What settings might I have overlooked?18:23
r0kk3rzsledges: aye my machine runs arch with UEFI just fine, its a bit different but not that hard18:23
bennypr0fane_sledges, can't you just turn off UEFI in Bios?18:24
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sledgesit's all abit fiddly and was happy toforget, no dual boot tried though18:43
sledges:)18:43
sledgesah ghosal just popped in and out:))18:48
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EyeA)01!@ 00h18:53
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