#jollamobile log for Tuesday, 2017-10-31

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* pahartik still has not got "Bluetooth PAN" working on "Sailfish X", keeps trying04:36
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r0kk3rzstay tuned for another exciting episode of "pahartik tries to fix Sailfish X"08:41
Nicd-most of this channel is "X tries to fix Sailfish" nowadays :P08:42
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r0kk3rzthis is true08:43
r0kk3rzor 'halp i updated and it all broke'08:43
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Liekemy sailfish updates never fail, what am i doing wrong? D:08:51
TofeLieke: I'm in the same never-ending nightmare: no reset since dec. 2013...08:56
Liekejan 2014 here :)08:56
Nicd-mine had to be reset once when they fixed the SIM holder08:57
Tofe(but I've done a complete mmc dump some months ago, I'm not a fool either :) )08:57
Nicd-of course now it's reset since I'm selling it08:57
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jankratochvilI got a new (used) Jolla now.  Internet (web) does work fine using my WiFi but installing any apps says: "Problem with Store", "Problem installing jolla-notes" (or jolla-calculator for example).09:11
Bysmyyr(re)login with you jolla account09:12
jankratochvilBTW it says: Sailfish OS 1.0.0.5 (armv7hl)09:13
Bysmyyrthen update09:14
r0kk3rzoh.. yeah stop what you're doing and spend the next 12 hours updating09:14
r0kk3rzthats beyond ancient09:14
jankratochvilTried Settings->Accounts->Jolla (=jankratochvil)->turn the light on/off, then Save, still the same installation error then.09:14
jankratochvilBut how to update it?  In some video I have seen there should be some update icon on top left corner of some main screen but I do not see anything anywhere.09:15
r0kk3rzin settings?09:15
Bysmyyrin that version, updating is hidded in some other info submenu in settings, dot remember which09:16
jankratochvilWhat should I find in Settings?  I see no "update" option there.09:16
jankratochvilOK, I will try to google it, thanks for the support!09:17
r0kk3rzi dont think i ever used that version09:17
r0kk3rzi'm not sure you'll find much on google09:19
jankratochvilI have found https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201836347-How-do-I-download-and-install-a-System-Update-an-OS-update- - but none of that works.  I have nothing in "events" (that is "notifications"?) and "Settings > System > About product" also does not offer anything.09:21
r0kk3rzjankratochvil: i dont suppose you can install developer mode?09:22
Nicd-don't do it09:22
jankratochvilr0kk3rz: I already tried that but that also says some error.09:22
Nicd-with 1005 should only log in and upgrade09:22
r0kk3rzyeah figured09:22
Nicd-in about product there is no pulldown menu?09:22
jankratochvilbut ... how? :-)09:22
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jankratochvilNicd-: Ah, yes!  In "About product" one additionally has to "pull down" it, thanks.  Sorry I am not used to this "pulling" interface yet.09:23
jankratochvilBut after "Checking..." it said "Up to date".09:23
Nicd-reset -> login -> go straight to upgrade09:25
Nicd-don't do anything else09:25
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r0kk3rzadd jolla account as part of the wizard09:25
Nicd-yeah09:25
jankratochvilWhat does mean the "login" step?09:25
Nicd-add jolla account in the setup wizard09:26
pahartikr0kk3rz: At least I got IRC client configured on "Sailfish X" this morning09:31
r0kk3rz\o/09:31
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jankratochvilNicd-: After factory reset + login + About->Update it really started downloading it.  Unaware what was screwed up in the installation from previous owner - the system looked wiped up the same way as after my factory reset now.  Thanks!09:37
Nicd-jankratochvil: thing is you cannot try to install apps or dev mode in the old versions09:39
Nicd-it will screw it up somehow and be unable to upgrade09:39
Nicd-btw you have many many upgrades in front of you as it can't upgrade to latest straight away09:39
jankratochvil/o\09:39
Nicd-so it will take some time to do. but don't use it for anything else than upgrading until you are on the latest to be on the safe side09:39
jankratochvilyes sir09:40
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r0kk3rzlatest stable is like 2.1.2 btw09:43
r0kk3rz1.0.0 was the first ever release09:43
Nicd-oh I remember those days09:45
pahartikr0kk3rz: Current three issues (for me) with initial version of "Sailfish X" are: "connman" DNS setting not working like before, mobile network settings not saved across reboot, Bluetooth PAN not working at all (I am aware that Bluetooth is not supported in first release)09:45
r0kk3rzyeah bt is a bit shaky still, we're lucky it works at all really09:46
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pahartikr0kk3rz: But switching to "BlueZ 5" stack is good09:50
r0kk3rzits not really a bluez issue09:54
pahartikr0kk3rz: Is it Linux kernel issue with tricky hardware support then?09:55
r0kk3rzyeah basically, due to the way android works the kernel doesnt need to support the hardware09:56
r0kk3rzso, the manufacturers dont create kernel drivers09:56
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pahartikr0kk3rz: Acknowledged10:02
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keithzg[m]Any news on opening up Sailfish X sales to elsewhere in the world? Even if just as a tablet refund, I'd take that in a heartbeat ;)10:42
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r0kk3rzkeithzg[m]: anywhere you had in mind?10:48
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keithzg[m]r0kk3rz: As someone living in Canada that's certainly my selfish top-priority ;) but in general I'm curious about any news of expansion beyond the general euro zone10:49
r0kk3rzi havent heard anything about any further expansion10:50
intewhy is the sale of jolla x restricted to the European region at all?10:55
inteare there any legal issues?10:55
r0kk3rzi think its a payment thing mostly10:56
r0kk3rzpeople have been sneeky with VPNs and such though10:56
intewell but they accept credit cards, don't they?10:58
inteand they could maybe also offer paypal though I don't know if paypal would offer buyers protection in that case which can often become a problem for the seller10:59
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r0kk3rzyeah i dont think its quite that simple11:00
* inte really had some issues with paypal and would never offer paypal as a payment method on ebay again11:00
inteinterested in the story?11:00
r0kk3rzjolla hasnt been forthcoming with the story11:00
inteno, MY story :)11:00
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intei once sold a brandnew samsung phone on ebay11:01
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integot that phone from my phone company, but didn't need it since i was using the jolla already11:01
inteso i sold it on ebay short before christmas, for, lets say, 350€11:02
* inte .oO(don't remember the exact amount)11:02
inteanyways11:02
intethe buyer paid through paypal and I shipped through DHL, with a tracking number11:03
intethe parcel never made it to the buyer and got lost11:03
inteeventually, the buyer went for buyers protection, so DHL contacted me and I gave them the tracking ID11:03
intehowever, paypal still granted buyers protection to the buyer and i lost my money11:04
integot the phone back 4 month later, when DHL finally found it11:04
inteat that time, the phone already lost like 200€ in value because the next model was already out and christmas was long over11:05
intein fact, paypal should have never granted buyers protection in that case, because shipping is a buyers risk, not a sellers risk11:05
intei could have gone to sue the seller to still pay me the full amount but I didn't, because I'm a nice guy11:06
inteand  a bit lazy11:06
inte:)11:06
intetherefore, I would never sell anything on ebay and offer paypal payment again.11:06
inteGranting buyers protection in a case like this is not conform to the german laws IMHO11:07
intetherefore, instead of sueing paypal I rather just don't use it any more.11:08
pketo_I don't know, but I would not expect shipping issues to be buyers risk...11:09
intepketo_: it is11:10
pketo_that sounds wrong :)11:10
intepketo_: in Germany, that is the law11:10
inteat least for uninsured shipping, which is usually the case11:11
pketo_ok11:11
r0kk3rzi think in aus its the sellers risk11:12
r0kk3rzwhich imo makes sense, they typically choose who to ship with after all11:13
intehttp://www.ebay.de/gds/Wer-traegt-das-Risiko-Gefahrenuebergang-bei-Internetkauf-/10000000017660536/g.html11:14
inteits german but google translate might help11:15
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inteas soon as you handed the parcel over to DHL, it's buyers risk11:15
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r0kk3rzim sure you're right, but its interesting how consumer laws differ in this regard11:16
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intei guess it's for private sales only11:18
intehowever, still, paypal really sucks11:18
intei still use it for payments sometimes, but never again for sales11:18
inteit's an unpredictable risk11:18
intepaypal should not grant buyers protection in these cases, but they do, and they don't care11:19
inteand as long as noone sues them they wouldn't change11:19
r0kk3rzin these instantances someone will be the loser, sucks that in this case that was you11:21
intei would have won if I'd gone to court11:22
intemaybe i should have gone11:22
intebut i was pretty busy with other things11:22
Temppu-Temegoing to court for a ~200e claim seems like a gamble11:23
Temppu-Temeif you don't win you'll be paying a lot of lawyers fees and shit, at least here in finland11:24
r0kk3rzyou dont have a small claims court?11:24
intewell in this case, it might (probably) have led to paypal changing it's behavior and would have been a good thing for private sellers in general11:25
Temppu-Temehere in finland i don't think we have that11:25
Temppu-Temewhich is just retarded, you can't really go to court for anything below let's say a thousand euros if it's not out of principle / in order to make a pre-case11:26
r0kk3rzTemppu-Teme: that sucks, its a good concept really. claims under £2000 with no lawyers allowed and pretty small court fees11:26
Temppu-Temeyeah, sure would be nice. now a lot of companies and individuals get away with stuff because it's just too much of a risk to enter court (since you might have to pay your own fees + the other party's) if you are not 100% sure you'll win11:27
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Temppu-Temeand then again we have a "market court" (markkinaoikeus for the finns around here) which is abused. in that court there is no presumption of innocence, so for example there are companies who specialize in sueing people for piracy. they create a honey pot torrent and gather all the IP addresses. then the defendant has to prove it was not them who did the piracy. if you lose on top of the (very11:32
Temppu-Temesmall) amount of compensation for the actual piracy you'll have to be thousands of euros of lawyer's fees11:32
Temppu-Temeso typically the defendant's only choice is to settle out of court for some hundreds of euros because even if you're innocent the risk is too high11:33
Temppu-Temeplain out extortion :/11:33
r0kk3rzoh wow thats terrible11:34
Nicd-they limited it now in the court11:37
Nicd-the copyright mafia actually have to have evidence now before they can obtain the IP holder's identity :P11:37
Temppu-Temeoh, well that sure is good. this has been a severe vector for abuse for a few years... good that they are reacting in some way11:39
Temppu-Temewhat is considered enough evidence?11:39
Temppu-Temeif my understanding is correct previous to the limitations you mentioned the IP address torrenting was enough to get the identity from the ISPs11:40
Temppu-Temeand then they sent out letters in mass saying if you pay xxx euros this matter is settled, otherwise _maybe_ we'll sue you... actual court cases were probably in the tens and the business model was to create enough of a risk so that people would just pay based on the letters11:41
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Temppu-Temethey really do not intend or even have the resources to sue everyone, that's why they are called "extortion letters"11:41
Nicd-there are more specifics here: https://www.turre.com/markkinaoikeus-muutti-linjaansa-tekijanoikeuskirjeista/11:43
Nicd-in Finnish11:43
Nicd-it seems they need to determine for each case if the sharing was "substantial" before getting contact details11:43
Temppu-Temeoh, Turre Legal :D i was about to mention them also, this is just my thinking but they are bloodsuckers benefiting from the actual companies doing the letters and court claims. at least at some point they said they specialize in settling these matters out of court. actually i think there was, if not a backroom deal, at least a silent understanding with the letter senders that they both benefit11:47
Temppu-Temefrom the situation11:47
Nicd-obviously11:48
Nicd-lawyers always win11:48
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Temppu-TemeTurre offered a service where if you actually got sued, you could pay them to settle the matter with the company who is sueing you and pay a bit extra for them obviously, a lot cheaper than court but more expensive than paying the original demanded in the letter11:49
Temppu-Temesome shady shit11:49
Temppu-Temeobviously they would not have to put in much effort since it was the same company and hundreds of identical cases11:49
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inte[m]https://github.com/Sailbook/harbour-matrix12:08
intethats nice12:09
intethere seems to be some activity again12:09
r0kk3rzits a bit rough12:14
r0kk3rzit doesnt really like dropping network connections, which for a mobile app is a little limiting12:15
inteyeh probably similar to the release which could be downloaded from the tjc thread12:31
inteworks fair enough on a stable connection12:31
intematrix is really a cool product and i hope they will be able to overcome their financing issues12:32
intebtw12:33
inteim still playing around with my xperia x under android12:33
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intei'm still testing the hardware12:33
inteand i can't get usb otg to work12:33
intei don't dare to unlock the bootloader and maybe void the warranty if the might be a hardware issue12:34
intecould also be my usb->microusb adapter12:34
intecan anyone recomend an adapter which is know to work?12:34
intemy adapter works with samsung phones but not with the sony12:34
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intei want to try a different adapter so which on might be suitable?12:35
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hagizHi! Is this a good place to ask if some apps are impossible to run in alien-dalvik?12:45
hagizHave been trying to run snapchat, but if it's impossible it would be good to know so I don't waste more time ;)12:46
r0kk3rzhagiz: did you install playstore?12:50
hagizyes I did12:50
r0kk3rzthen whats the problem?12:51
hagizwell, installing and running it works, but logging in doesn't work12:51
r0kk3rzhmm interesting12:52
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r0kk3rzit works for me on jolla c12:52
hagizI'm getting login temporarily failed12:53
hagizbut if it works for you it means I should keep trying I guess, thanks :)12:54
r0kk3rzon wifi? or mobile?12:54
hagizboth12:54
hagizwill try removing playstore/services and reinstalling12:54
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r0kk3rzthat shouldnt be needed12:54
hagizusing xperia, maybe it's different from jolla c12:55
hagizit worked on my original jolla before it broke, but that's several versions ago12:55
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