#jollamobile log for Wednesday, 2017-11-01

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* pahartik finds out about "http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1535507", regarding mobile network settings not saved (such as "PDP type")01:49
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Bee_Hello!09:12
Bee_Do you guys think that Sailfish OS project is in more advanced stage than Ubuntu Touch?09:12
r0kk3rzconsidering canonical has dropped ubuntu touch id say so09:14
coderusBee_: ubuntu touch was never released, so09:14
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Bee_What do you mean never released?09:15
inte[m]werent there some ubuntu phones for sale?09:16
Bee_There was plenty of working Ubuntu Touch phones from BQ and Meizu.09:16
inte[m]but that was rather ubuntu phone than ubuntu touch?09:16
coderusBee_: in a stable state09:16
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inte[m]i never had an ubuntu phone but from what ive heard and read those phones software state was never even close to sfos09:17
inte[m]and somewhat limited as debian system packages were not allowed in the release version09:18
Bee_https://ubports.com/09:18
inte[m]those were only possible in the experimental branch09:19
Bee_Maybe commercial part died, but community is strong on ubports09:19
inte[m]Bee_: well, its experimental09:19
inte[m]community effort, if you want that stay with it09:20
inte[m]sfos is more stable for sure09:20
Bee_What about Sailfish btw? Do you see bright future?09:21
r0kk3rzBee_: lets be honest, they're both still quite immature09:21
r0kk3rzits like children arguing about being 4 and 4 and a half09:21
* inte[m] uses his phone daily09:22
inte[m]you cant compare. ubuntu touch is rather like plasma mobile09:22
r0kk3rznot really, plasma mobile is a UX, ubuntu was a whole stack09:22
inte[m]you can buy jolla phones or now, releases09:22
inte[m]which are supported09:22
inte[m]and support android apps09:22
inte[m]r0kk3rz: well ok, but in terms of installable distributions09:23
inte[m]i guess ubuntu touch is more a ux now too09:24
Bee_Is there any development to Alien Dalvik still?09:24
r0kk3rzBee_: the biggest thing going for sfos is that the russians and chinese are investing in it09:24
inte[m]its commercial software09:24
inte[m]there are ad updates from time to time09:25
inte[m]dont know about what is planned in the future09:25
r0kk3rzBee_: in general no, AD is fairly stale and we need a wholesale replacement09:25
inte[m]they will probably switch to anbox some day i guess09:26
Bee_r0kk3rz: when I used Sailfish, it mas mature enough compared to competition. But after the Jolla's financial issues and layoffs, the development was stagnate, so now SFOS will have harder time to catch up. Are the development teams back in size of the previous glory days? Or still half size as after the layoffs?09:26
r0kk3rzprobably still half size, i dont know tbh09:28
inte[m]weren't they hiring again?09:28
r0kk3rzsure09:28
r0kk3rzand still are09:28
r0kk3rzthat doesnt mean anyone joined09:28
inte[m]hehe09:29
inte[m]well if i was a professional developer id consider for sure ;)09:29
r0kk3rzthere were a few new faces i know of, but they did lose a lot of people09:29
r0kk3rzand the market in .fi isnt huge09:29
inte[m]home office shouldnt be too much a problem for software development09:30
r0kk3rzno, and indeed jolla has a lot of remote workers09:30
Bee_The biggest advantage back in the day was that everyone working for SFOS was full of ex09:31
r0kk3rzbut maybe people dont rush to join a company that nearly went under just recently09:31
Bee_Excitement09:31
inte[m]well, shoulndt be too hard to find a job anywhere else in case the company really breaks up09:32
r0kk3rzmarc was definitely mr enthusiasm09:32
inte[m]at least not for a good developer09:32
inte[m]r0kk3rz: jeah thats true09:32
r0kk3rzyeah thats fine if you want to take that risk, but maybe not everyone does09:32
inte[m]european spirit :)09:33
inte[m]ok09:35
inte[m]my updates still dont work since it crashed the last time09:36
inte[m]i guess i will have to reset my phone09:36
* inte[m] never made a reset even though he received his first jolla in 201209:38
inte[m]hope i wont loose any data09:38
inte[m]is it sufficient to simply backup to sd?09:38
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* inte really likes matrix09:41
intebut i think I said that previously :)09:41
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inte[m]mh. phone sais i cannot write on the sd card09:43
inte[m]just grepped it from a beagle, should be ext3 or sth09:44
inte[m]can i reformat it straight from the phone?09:44
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Bee_Does Marc still use Sailfish as his daily driver?09:48
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Nicd-would bet he doesn't09:50
r0kk3rzBee_: no idea, marc hasnt been involved in quite a while now09:52
inte[m]what actually happened to the turing phone with sfos?09:52
Bee_Alright09:52
inte[m]were there some phones shipped eventually?09:52
Bee_Btw have you guys heard09:52
Bee_Samsung will have a thing called Linux on Galaxy09:53
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Bee_https://seap.samsung.com/linux-on-galaxy09:53
r0kk3rzinte[m]: they shipped some phones that they claimed were 'pre-production' and would be replacing them for free09:53
r0kk3rzwhich they never did09:53
r0kk3rzand dropped the project09:53
Bee_Linux on Galaxy allows the latest Samsung Galaxy smartphone users to run their preferred Linux distribution on their smartphones utilizing the same Linux kernel that powers the Android OS to ensure the best possible performance.09:54
inter0kk3rz: oh ok thx09:54
Bee_Kind of like Termux I guess, but hopefully more integrated with the phone drivers and HW09:54
r0kk3rzBee_: its linux in a container, which you can already do but obviously its cool to get proper support for it09:54
inter0kk3rz: but out of curiosity, do these phones still receive updates from the official jolla repos?09:54
r0kk3rzinte: not sure09:55
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inter0kk3rz: those are hard to find anyways and the last time i saw one on ebay if was like 1500€09:55
Bee_r0kk3rz: yep, that's why I mentioned Termux09:55
* inte would rather search for a N950 :)09:55
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intejolla could eventually sell sfos containers ;)09:56
intenot sure if this would make any sense though... LOL09:56
r0kk3rzinte: they cost like 1000€ new... but no i wouldnt bother with them09:57
r0kk3rzyou'd be better off with an xperia x09:57
inte[m]i have one already :)09:57
inte[m]still testing the hardware and i cannot get usb otg to work09:58
inte[m]i dont dare to unlock the bootloader yet09:58
inte[m]i just ordered a couple of otg-adapters09:58
inte[m]mine works with the s3, but you never know...09:58
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Bee_Did they refund the undelivered Turing orders?10:01
inteif anyone could recommend a otg adapter which is known to work with the xperix, youre welcome :)10:01
Bee_If you guys think about it, Samsung is kind of Nokia now. Nokia had Symbian and dumbphones as primary business10:04
Bee_And Maemo as secondary project10:04
Bee_Samsung has Android and Tizen as secondary project10:04
Bee_And both are/were market dominators10:04
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sledges /win 3010:04
r0kk3rzsledges: o/10:06
stephgoo he's alive10:06
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* sledges caves in ;P10:06
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inte[m]was the oyster sf phone actually real?10:08
r0kk3rzBee_: im not sure thats a meaningful comparison10:09
r0kk3rzsymbian and maemo were both nokia driven projects, and android isnt a samsung driven project10:10
inte[m]yeah, nokia was really investing in meego and had it setup as a successor already10:10
r0kk3rzso tizen isnt some internal conflict like maemo was, they're hedging their bets in case goog throws them under a bus10:11
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inte[m]and tizen? appears to be a security nightmare even though they use it on some devices (watches, cameras, TV)10:11
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inte[m]tizen and samsung is rather like webos and lg10:12
r0kk3rzyeah well, you dont become awesome at software over night10:12
r0kk3rzmaking operating systems is hard10:12
r0kk3rzgoog still hasnt gotten it right10:12
inte[m]i still dare google might close the android code some day and switch the kernel to e.g. qnx, freebsd or sth10:12
r0kk3rzor fuscia10:13
inte[m]yes true10:13
inte[m]actually google can say thank you to microsoft for killing meego10:14
r0kk3rzmeego probably would have died anyway10:14
jonwilNokia should have dropped the piece of junk that was Symbian and gone all in on Maemo/MeeGo/etc10:15
Bee_r0kk3rz: you really don't think Meego would succeed being 1:1 competitor with Android?10:15
inte[m]i think they would have succeeded10:16
r0kk3rzits all speculation of course but all the other behemoths have failed10:16
inte[m]there were many commercial apps available for symbian that day and the qt build environment was already set up for an easy rebuild for meego10:16
Bee_Then Maemo would have perhaps succeeded. Meego was already too late to the game10:17
inte[m]and, nokia was the market leader and still growing10:17
r0kk3rznokia couldnt make windows phone successful, why would maemo have been different?10:17
inte[m]they never had a share in the us but who cares?10:17
jonwilI am surprised that so many people/companies have tried proper linux on mobile phones and none have succeeded or stuck with it.10:17
inte[m]well, all those companys were at some point attacked by microsoft10:17
Bee_r0kk3rz: because Windows phone and Meego came when market already moved on to Android and iOS10:18
inte[m]e.g. the famous palm foleo would have surely become a success, beeing the first ever netbook just short before the netbook boom10:18
Bee_Maemo had 2 years headstart10:18
inte[m]but then microsoft stepped in and the foleo was never released10:18
jonwilI am surprised Microsoft stuck with phones for so long even when it was clear they were never going to be more than a blip against Android and iOS10:18
inte[m]meego was available on netbooks too, and there were tablet prototypes like the acer m500, and again, ms stepped in10:19
jonwilIIRC they recently killed windows phones10:19
inte[m]windows phone, and especially wp7, was crap10:19
r0kk3rzBee_: so nokia didnt move soon enough? i dont see how thats anyones fault except nokias...10:19
inte[m]they are no focusing on core os and ardomega or what it is called10:20
Bee_r0kk3rz: sure, Nokia's fault. I never blamed Microsoft10:20
inte[m]r0kk3rz: there were rumors that the us stock majority pushed elop and elops only business were to cancel meego10:20
inte[m]meego could have become a severe thread to microsoft, beeing available on any class of hardware and compatible to gnu/linux10:21
r0kk3rzinte[m]: yes its a wonderful conspiracy theory10:21
inte[m]meaning meego apps could also run on e.g. redhat, suse... standard linux releases10:21
inte[m]r0kk3rz: i dont think its all conspiracy10:21
inte[m]ballmer was protecting his company10:22
r0kk3rzim sure we can spend all day saying 'maybe', 'could have' and 'would have'10:22
Bee_inte: for the 1% peopple who care then to run on standard Linux10:22
inte[m]nowadays, microsoft is more cloud focused10:22
jonwilWhy did the Ubuntu mobile efforts not work?10:22
inte[m]Bee_: i guess its rather about business applications10:22
inte[m]qt has a quite strong standing in the embedded industry too10:23
inte[m]all threads to ms10:23
r0kk3rzjonwil: shuttleworth gave up10:23
inte[m]jonwil: from what ive heard the ubuntu phones were crap10:23
inte[m]and not as open as e.g. sfos10:23
inte[m]and the community releases were experimental10:23
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inte[m]and, they didnt run android apps10:24
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jonwilI suspect that's the biggest problem for "mobile linux" at this point is that there is no ecosystem to run all the apps people actually care about.10:26
jonwilMe, I love my N900 and wouldn't trade it in for some piece of crap running Android even if you paid me to do it.10:27
* inte[m] doesnt like "ecosystems"10:27
inte[m]its crap like fences10:27
inte[m]marketing crap10:27
pdanekjonwil: then you're limited with what you can do with your smartphone. For me10:27
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pdanekFor me it must fully replace laptop10:28
inte[m]pdanek: there is an unofficial tinderapp for sfos available so who cares 😅10:28
jonwilMost of my computing is done on my desktop PC (running Windows since I use it for games and things otherwise I would go all in on something like Gentoo although I do run a Linux VM for my N900 dev work :)10:29
inte[m]pdanek: i guess the n900 is as close as you could get to replace a laptop :)10:29
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jonwilMy N900 does everything I need out of a phone.10:29
inte[m]well, there is the n950 but...10:29
r0kk3rzeh, why should it replace a laptop?10:29
jonwilI can do my online banking on it.10:30
jonwilI can check my emails.10:30
jonwilI can do public transport journey planning (thanks to my own work to support my local transport network in Fahrplan for the N900)10:30
jonwilI have some good games on it (although I gotta stop playing that chess game, every time I try it it just reminds me of how much I stuck at chess :)10:31
jonwilPlus with the new Maemo Leste project that I am now involved in, things are going to get even better10:31
r0kk3rzjonwil: maemo leste?10:31
inteare there still security updates for maemo?10:32
jonwilMaemo Leste is basically a derivative of Devuan with all the maemo software stack (hildon stuff etc) bolted onto it.10:32
jonwilEverything that can be updated will be (new kernel, new libc, new glib etc etc)10:33
inteare there open kernel drivers available for the n900 nowadays?10:33
* inte confused10:34
jonwilAll the kernel drivers on the N900 are open10:34
jonwilThere were never binary kernel drivers on the N90010:34
jonwilPlenty of userspace blobs though10:34
inteoh ok didnt know that10:34
intehowever, the hardware is just a bit "very slow" compared to current devices10:35
jonwilThe idea is that Leste will provide a new OS for the N900 that is capable of running most existing Maemo software without any changes (probably without even needing to recompile). It will also provide an OS that can be used on the Neo900 (should that actually become something you can buy) with the same goals of being able to run Maemo software.10:35
* inte remebers running a dev-release of meego on his n900 and that was slooooooow10:35
jonwilAnd Leste will also provide a maemo type environment on other hardware10:35
jonwilSomeone is using a Droid 4 as a Leste target for example10:35
* inte still has an eye on the neo900 but barely sees progress10:36
inteid rather invest in that recent crowdfunding project10:37
jonwilOh and in terms of security updates, there are plans in the works to release a new version of the "community SSU" update which will include some security updates and fixes.10:37
inteforgot its name10:37
intethis open device10:37
Tegupurism?10:37
inteyes10:37
intethx10:37
jonwilAnd of course Leste will have modern versions of everything so security wont be as big of a deal.10:37
jonwili.e. we want to throw away the ancient N900 microb browser and its ancient version of Gecko and replace it with something more modern (what that is is still unknown)10:38
intethey could still do a leste port for the purism though10:38
jonwilIt will be interesting to see if the Purism guys are able to hit their target in terms of just how open the thing is.10:39
jonwilI suspect there will still be closed blobs connected to the i.MX6 involved somewhere10:39
r0kk3rzgood luck to them10:39
inte[m]at least, unlike the kde book, they ship coreboot with their laptops10:40
inte[m]libreboot would still be better though10:41
intekde slimbook10:41
jonwilI doubt there exists a CPU on the planet (aside from some specialty/weird stuff like OpenRISC and maybe some of the POWER stuff from IBM) that is capable of running a modern Linux desktop setup such that there are no binary blobs involved at all (and hence nothing that could be spying on you or compromising your data)10:42
intewerent there a ppc project for libreboot?10:42
r0kk3rzjonwil: maybe an old 8088 somewhere :)10:43
jonwilYou cant run a modern Linux desktop on an old CPU10:43
jonwilThe kernel needs at least i486 these days AFAIK10:44
jonwilpossibly even Pentium10:44
inte[m]well, but the x200/x230 is still sufficent enough and there is libreboot available10:44
jonwilThere is certainly no chip suitable for running a modern linux environment in a mobile device that is free of binary crap.10:44
r0kk3rzbut anyway, you're still going to be spied on seven ways from sunday beyond your choice of PC10:45
jonwilYeah true10:45
inte[m]yes10:45
inte[m]like with this recent wpa2 breach10:45
inte[m]so complex that it will hardly be utilized10:45
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inte[m]but the media uprise was huge10:46
inte[m]even though it gave a good impression about how crappy most iot devices are since most of them are not upgradeable10:46
inteoh, aibo is back :)10:48
inte[m]and the nokia 2 is out, for less than 100€10:50
inte[m]i always wonder why it seems impossible for jolla to somehow release a nokia sfos phone10:51
r0kk3rzbecause nokia doesnt want it?10:51
inte[m]obviously there doesnt seem much interest for cooperation10:51
inte[m]seems so.10:51
inte[m]i dont quite understand why they wouldnt want10:51
r0kk3rzwhy *would* they want it?10:52
jonwilRegardless of what else may be going on, the idea of a mobile device built from the ground up to be as secure as possible is a good thing and I think the Neo900 hardware design is the closest thing out there to such a device10:52
inte[m]well it could be good marketing10:52
jonwilThe cellular radio, GPS, WiFi and other chips that have connectivity have hardware off switches so you can be sure they really ARE off when you want them to be.10:52
inte[m]a nokia branded sfos phone would surely feel somewhat genuine nokia, since sfos is the true nokiaos successor10:53
r0kk3rzi cant help but think ideas like neo900 are fighting a losing battle, once the reputation economy gears up people will be opting in to be tracked more10:54
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jonwilIts actually possible to run a totally blob-free setup on the Neo900 main CPU if you want to (assuming you are OK with not having hardware accelerated 3D)10:55
r0kk3rzalready you hear of employers checking peoples facebook pages before hiring them10:55
jonwilIf you really want to see where this word is going, why its a bad idea and why we need to stop it all, go read Data and Goliath by Bruce Schineer10:56
jonwilSomeone needs to send copies of that book to all the idiot politicians in various governments who are pushing for MORE survellence and spying.10:57
jonwilMore spying and surveillance wont make a difference in the real world, look at that idiot with the pickup truck in New York. No amount of spying by the NSA or FBI or otherwise would have stopped him from doing what he did.10:58
inte[m]r0kk3rz: that is nothing new i guess11:00
mornfallthat's not entirely true... put enough brain scanning equipment on everyone and you may catch impure thoughts early on ;-)11:01
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r0kk3rzjonwil: of course its terrible, but its also inevitable at this point11:05
r0kk3rzand looking at it from purely a terrorism point of view is a bit too narrow11:13
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inteoh there is a signal client for the linux desktop now11:28
intemaybe that can be ported to sfos11:28
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rigor0kk3rz: Facebook information is public information, so what's the problem. The employer just does due diligence11:32
rigoand again, we can ALL do something about it by encrypting as often as we can11:33
rigoeven opportunistic encryption helps11:33
r0kk3rzmy point is that unless you opt in to some of these data collecting services you're already a bit of an outcast11:34
r0kk3rzthat will get worse most likely11:34
rigomy /etc/hosts reads 127.0.0.1       www.facebook.com11:35
rigothis way I reliably get rid of those evil buttons11:35
rigothat all those vandals powder all over the web11:36
inte[m]isnt there fbcdn.com as well?11:36
inte[m]or sth like that?11:36
rigointe[m]: of course, but I don't insert my hosts file with 300 entries here ;)11:37
rigofb.com etc...11:37
inte[m]then they can still track you11:37
inte[m]even though, no buttons, true11:38
r0kk3rzprivacy badger does a good job11:39
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Nicd-I use uMatrix and it's a pain sometimes :P11:49
Nicd-youtube's autoplay keeps turning on for whatever reason with it11:49
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intei inserted a f2fs formatted smartcard in my jolla and it is not recogniced15:22
r0kk3rzsmartcard?15:23
intesd15:23
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inteah just found the f2fs tools in warehouse15:23
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intetrying to reboot maybe that would help15:24
inteis f2fs supported by default?15:25
intei didnt reboot after i plugged in the card15:25
inteok now its recognized, but the backup program always says that the card is not writeable15:26
intei messed up my device a bit15:27
intebut still, how can i write to the card?15:27
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intedev/mmcblk1p1 on /opt/alien/media/sdcard/card type f2fs (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,dirsync,background_gc_on,user_xattr,acl,active_logs=6)15:30
intelooks fine, actually15:30
inteok15:32
intefrom the command prompt, i need to devel-su to modify file on the card15:32
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inteah, chown nemo:nemo /media/sdcard/ did the trick15:39
inteas mentioned on https://together.jolla.com/question/92854/microsd-card-with-btrfs-mounted-but-not-writable-by-user/15:39
inteshouldnt that issue have been fixed for long?15:39
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intenow it appears that i have too less space for the backup, even though im backing up to sd15:44
integrr15:44
intethat is not really userfriendly15:45
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Tomin318:02
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SQUelcher#19:54
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SQUelcher~19:54
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SQUelcher(my two year old trying to skip to the next video in mplayer on the other console... :> )19:56
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Temppu-Temegotta start young :D20:17
FireFly:D20:23
* FireFly approves20:23
tango_lol20:34
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