Thursday, 2020-03-19

*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Jaymzz08:37
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*** leszek3 is now known as leszek08:46
Nico[m]test failed08:49
JaymzzApBBB: finally, you can speak :D08:55
Venemohey guys08:55
leszekhmm... you need extra rights for speaking here?08:56
DylanVanAsscheHey :)08:56
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DylanVanAsscheleszek (IRC): schmittlauch[m] (IRC) : Received it :)08:57
Jaymzzleszek: nope, but he had issues with the #mer-meeting channel. Somehow he could not write anything there for a while08:57
leszekI see08:57
ApBBBleszek i don't know what was going on in the other room but i couldn't type even after i created an acount.08:57
Jaymzzbirdzhang: it works :)08:58
Jaymzzalright let's go09:00
Jaymzz#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 202009:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Mar 19 09:00:09 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.09:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"09:00
JaymzzWelcome to the new meeting room!09:00
Jaymzz#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
JaymzzI am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle. This one is gonna be a long one, so let's respect the timing as we should.09:01
Jaymzz#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info09:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"09:01
Jaymzz#info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla09:01
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla09:02
Nico[m]#info Nico - developer/user, community09:02
birdzhang#info BirdZhang - developer/user, community09:02
pketo#info Pami Ketolainen - sailor @ Jolla09:02
leszek#info Leszek, dev/user, community09:02
veskuh_webVesa-Matti Hartikainen - running projects @ Jolla09:03
shaddack#info Daniel Eriksson user prospecive app developer09:03
ljo#info Leif-Jöran Olsson, community developer09:03
abranson#info Andrew Branson - sailor09:03
JaymzzNice, we have a lot of sailors attending today :) It's fitting with the amount of topics too!09:04
Nico[m]Probably a lot of people at home, I guess?09:04
vknecht#info Vincent Knecht - community dev/porter09:04
JaymzzNico[m]: True. Many sailors are currently working from home.09:05
Venemo#info Timur Kristóf - sailor :)09:06
JaymzzFirst topic coming up in a few seconds09:06
Jaymzz#topic Official support for PinePhone and Xperia 10 || (5 min – asked by cquence)09:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "Official support for PinePhone and Xperia 10 || (5 min – asked by cquence) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"09:06
Jaymzz#info Is there any information you can share with regards to these 2 devices and getting official Sailfish OS images for them?09:07
JaymzzAnd here comes the answer09:07
Jaymzz#info We are currently looking the next possibilities for Sailfish X devices. Requirements for a new device in general is availability for the community and enough openness by the vendor to allow providing an image to the device, similar to what we have done with Sony devices in the past. The mentioned devices are both potential candidates, but currently we can not confirm any plans.09:07
Jaymzz#info If you have alternative in mind in addition to the mentioned two devices feedback welcome.09:07
pasik#info pasik, community09:08
JaymzzI don't see cquence online. Does anyone have anything to add? Otherwise we shall move on in a minute :)09:08
Nico[m]Well, my favourites are the 2 mentioned devices :D09:08
leszekXperia 1 flagship device with SailfishX would be cool09:08
Jaymzzfor sure09:09
leszekalso could mean some effort will be put into the camera app which is very weak09:09
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - late sailor @ Jolla09:10
M4rtinKyeah, I don't think is is possible to ingore that anymore09:10
bionade24Jaymzz: So it's officially that Pine64 sent you some devices and Jolla evaluates to support them?09:10
pm-guestsome news on upcomming devices from OMP/Russian providers?09:10
vknechtofficial support for Tama devices ? (XZ2 etc.)09:10
ApBBBvknecht if you have bugs report them on github09:10
Jaymzzbionade24: Where did you get that info from? :)09:11
veskuh_webpm-guest We can't comment on customer device plans.09:11
Jaymzzbionade24: can't really comment on that yet actually :) But stay tuned!09:11
rinigusI guess they need a device with aosp10 to ensure that all works in upcoming devices as well09:12
pm-guestOK thank you)09:12
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vknechtApBBB, I only have Loire and idol3 :-)09:12
rinigusor moving to the linux based ones, but has to be available09:12
bionade24Jaymzz: Would be nice to have a device without libhybris, and at least many people in the german user forum have the same opinion, too.09:12
leszekach ja and Volla phone was financed. Maybe SailfishX for it would be also cool09:12
Jaymzzbionade24: Noted09:13
dcaliste_#info Damien Caliste, community, sorry to be late09:13
Jaymzzdcaliste_: Welcome09:13
JaymzzWe need to move on to the next topic guys09:13
Jaymzzwe have to keep the timing as it is packed today09:13
Jaymzzmoving on09:13
Jaymzz#topic Qt update (10 min – asked by rinigus)09:13
*** sailbot changes topic to "Qt update (10 min – asked by rinigus) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"09:13
Jaymzz#info please give an update regarding planned Qt update. which versions are considered? has the work started? is it in active phase now?09:14
JaymzzAnswer coming up:09:14
Jaymzz#info A topic that has been on the table for a long time already, and for many reasons it has not been going as fast forward as we would have hoped. We have been working still improving the development offering and tooling by introducing new toolchain in the next release.09:14
SefriolDoes next release mean literal next release or some release in the future? :D09:15
bionade24So it's not a GPLv2 ->v3 problem?09:15
JaymzzSefriol: Next release means next release :D09:15
ApBBBin a few days probably09:15
leszekImportant bits and pieces to this. Qt 5.9 will be EOL. Qt 5.12 is the only viable option09:15
rinigusJaymzz: was that a full answer? in this case, which version of Qt is considered?09:16
veskuh_webbionade24 The license still one of the issues we see.09:16
ViGeSefriol: And just to be 100% clear: new toolchain does not mean new Qt version.09:16
dcaliste_Sefriol, to be clear, in next release, it's for GCC.09:16
M4rtinKwell, that has been very long overdue09:16
veskuh_webrinigus We did a lot of work for 5.9, but as time has passed on from that we need to re-evaluate if it still makes sense to finalize as first step.09:16
pasiklast year it was said QT5 license is not a problem anymore?09:17
leszekIt should be priority right now. We devs won't sit here and wait for another year on an outdated Qt5 version for sure09:17
rinigusdo you have anyone working on it? like during last 2 months?09:18
* schmittlauch[m] is planning to bring up Qt and GPLv3 licensing issues in the next meeting (finally)09:18
veskuh_webpasik Well, for Jolla and for example Sailfish X it would not be an issue. With licensee's now it gets more complex.09:18
pasikveskuh_web: right, ok09:18
rinigusveskuh_web: I could see the works on 5.9, but it seems to have stopped a while ago09:19
pasikschmittlauch[m]: will that include the recent (qt company) backporting/LTS policy changes?09:19
leszekveskuh_web: it sounds like a dillemma. You can't make both happy and need to decide on who you gonna dissapoint09:19
Jaymzz3 minutes left09:20
SefriolI think many devs in general are tired of using old software stack and some do not want to make an effort to start since some of the issues need to be fixed via hacks or just upgrading the stack :p09:20
KeittoI understand hat 5.9 worrks will be finsihed with next release, correct?09:20
pasikKeitto: I don't think that's the case?09:20
leszekKeitto: no not at all09:20
M4rtinKI don't think there is a way around it though - it needs to be upgraded soon (or later is long not an option)09:20
leszekgcc and libc will be updated not Qt09:20
leszekQt 5.6 rebuild for newer gcc only09:21
M4rtinKall alternatives are worse and likely impossible (switching to other toolkit or Jolla effectively maintaining a disjoint fork forever, including features people want)09:21
rinigusJaymzz: this question has not been really replied to. its not clear whether anyone is working on it actively09:21
Jaymzz2 minutes :) just a reminder that we have to respect the timing strictly today. Otherwise it'll clash with Finnish lunch time and people will leave to eat ;)09:22
Venemounfortunately we currently won't yet upgrade from Qt 5.6, not because we don't want to, but due to the same reasons that were discussed almost every time this came up in the past.09:22
leszekNo one wants to work on it if the license thing is not cleared up. Otherwise it is like the Qt 5.9 work and it will never be released and a waste of time09:22
ApBBBthis has to be solved though.09:23
ApBBBsfos is held back due to this09:23
rinigusVenemo: so, it's license, right?09:23
leszeklike I said. Devs will vanish09:23
ApBBBand if people need latest wayland stuff smoething older than 5.12 wont cut it09:23
leszekOn top of that we can only collaborate in limited areas with Ubtouch and Plasma Mobile on devices like the Pinephone. On apps almost not at all09:24
rinigusApBBB: taking into account that we have qtwayland 5.4, anything higher may make life better09:25
JaymzzWe need to move on. If any discussion is left, please have it during the general discussion at the end of the meeting. '09:25
veskuh_webYes, we are aware that this is challenging situation. With the updated toolchain we are pushing also other ways to help developers and hopefully we could also progress the public API.09:25
ApBBBrinigus if you need the latest protocol you need 5.10 -12 +09:25
Jaymzz#info With the updated toolchain we are pushing also other ways to help developers and hopefully we could also progress the public API.09:25
ApBBBthat wasn;t working on desktop defore 5.1009:26
JaymzzMoving on to the next topic, time is over on this09:26
Jaymzz#topic Developer Forum (5 min – asked by Sefriol)09:26
*** sailbot changes topic to "Developer Forum (5 min – asked by Sefriol) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"09:26
Jaymzz#info Current progress? Will this also include a roadmap promised years ago? Future of TJC? :)09:26
Jaymzz#info Progress has been slow. The plan is to get it up and running during Q2/2020. The plan is to merge TJC to the new forum later.09:26
rinigusApBBB: thanks09:26
JaymzzSefriol: Anything to add? or shall we move on? :)09:27
SefriolMore or less, I think ease of communication is the key to move Sailfish forward :)09:27
JaymzzIndeed. Hopefully having all means of communication in one place will help massively with that.09:28
SefriolI'm fine to move on, unless somebody has anything to add09:28
Jaymzzmoving on in 30 sec :)09:28
schmittlauch[m]Jaymzz: Will the forum be more of bulletin board/ discourse style or more like Askbot?09:28
Jaymzzschmittlauch[m]: Discource style :)09:28
SefriolAnd you didn't say anythign about the roadmap ;)09:29
JaymzzSefriol: Can't comment on that now unfortunately :(09:29
SefriolSure, let's move on. Talk in general if needed09:29
schmittlauch[m]Point 1 on th roadmap: Don't talk about the roadmap :P09:29
JaymzzAlright moving on09:29
Jaymzz#topic gcc c++ support and qt upgrade progress (15 min – asked by Sefriol)09:29
*** sailbot changes topic to "gcc c++ support and qt upgrade progress (15 min – asked by Sefriol) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"09:29
dcaliste_Discourse style, will it be to discuss technical matter also ? Or only user experience oriented ?09:30
Jaymzz#info Personally I have been holding on doing more with Sailfish because of the aging software stack that was supposed to be upgraded last year. What's the current status and how big of a priority is this?09:30
dcaliste_Oups, sorry, forget my question, let's keep the current topic.09:30
ViGedcaliste_: It's *developer* forum09:30
Venemodcaliste_: it is called a "Developer Forum" so the name would be silly if technical matters weren't allowed09:30
Jaymzzdcaliste_: Hopefully everything. The point will be to have different forums there for different topics :)09:30
JaymzzAnswer to this topic:09:31
dcaliste_Ok, sorry, forgot the name. :/09:31
Jaymzz#info Next release contains gcc 8.3, you can see this work already in the repositories surely this is not the latest and greatest, but at the time we started the work 8.3 was the latest supported toolchain in the same Linaro series we have used in the past. Now hosted by ARM though. We have noted that gcc 9.2 is also there available now, and there is discussions to do yet another updat09:31
Jaymzze on toolchain and do these in a bit faster phase than before. Also the updates should be easier now that we have relatively new toolchain already.09:31
Jaymzzcquence: We discussed your topic first. Please read the logs :)09:31
cquenceThank you, sorry I am super late09:32
Nico[m]Do we need to rebuild applications? What ABI will be used by default? C++11 ABI?09:32
Jaymzzcquence: No worries!09:32
ViGeNico[m]: You shouldn't have to rebuild applications.09:33
leszekI guess lipstick and others are compiled against newer gcc to gain better security and a bit better speed?09:33
Nico[m]ViGe: Sounds great, when can I get my hands on it? :D09:34
ViGeleszek: sure, everything in the OS has been rebuilt09:34
ViGeNico[m]: As soon as it's ready to be published to early access users.09:34
Nico[m]I was hoping for a date, but alright :309:35
Nico[m]I think I can wait for the next release09:35
ApBBBNico[m] translatios were done a few weeks ago so it wont take long09:35
ViGeNico[m]: We can't really give dates, as there is always a possibility that a new blocker bug is found next minute09:35
leszekprobably next week I assume09:36
leszekif no bug09:36
SefriolDo you feel that future upgrades are still going to take as much time as 8.3?09:36
Nico[m]Yeah, I understand that, I'm usually in the same position ;-)09:36
SefriolLike are we going to see 9.2 in this year or the next? :D09:36
Nico[m]Next week sounds awesome!09:36
veskuh_webSefriol We are hoping that keeping toolchain uptodate would now be easier and we could do it more frequently09:37
Nico[m]Sefriol: Well, they said they are discussing faster updates in the future09:37
abransongetting from 4.8 to 4.9 was the hard bit ;)09:37
ApBBBa bit off topic but what community apps couldn't be used because of the old gcc??09:39
SefriolAbout dates, I'm sure you have target release dates? Why not share those? Ofc, it's up to community to know what target means :p09:39
SefriolThat's why the Roadmap would be nice09:39
SefriolLike many of us are devs who understand how this world works09:39
Nico[m]Maybe they're agile ;p09:40
SefriolOh, many firms also say that they are "agile"09:40
Keittoagille projects use roadmaps too09:40
cquenceThe problem is with non-devs which will start complaining if you're late by more than 5 minutes09:40
rinigusApBBB: libs used by pure maps and osm scout server. had to compile with my own copy of newer gcc09:40
dcaliste_Sefriol, I'm afraid they've been bitten already by some taking planning dates as promises... It makes them over cautious now.09:40
Jaymzz5 min left on this one09:40
Nico[m]A bit offtopic too: Will the meson package be updated too? I want a feature, where the version was 1 to low before, iirc09:41
ApBBBSefriol but many arent devs  and there is going to be a shitload of "but you said this week" posts09:41
cquenceApBBB exactly09:41
SefriolYeah, I know. But now there are a lot of complains of not having any dates :p09:41
ApBBBrinigus its the app i wait the most to hit the store once the other issue with systemd is resolved09:41
Keittonext topic pls09:42
VenemoNico[m], Sefriol this has nothing to do with 'agile'09:42
dcaliste_Nico[m], meson is 0.50.1 in sailfishos gitlab.09:43
Venemoalso, agile is kind of just a buzzword these days09:43
SefriolVenemo As I said :D09:43
SefriolBut yeah, I'm fine moving to next topic09:43
Nico[m]dcaliste_: Hm, I think I need 51 or so, anything I can do to update it in the future?09:43
Jaymzz1 min09:44
dcaliste_Nico[m], Propose a MR in sailfishos updating the version. It's using submodule, so update in the submodule directory and change the version in spec file.09:44
dcaliste_Then, of course, check that nothing breaks...09:45
Nico[m]dcaliste_: Thanks, I will do that :309:45
JaymzzI'll give this 1-2 more minutes as the previous topic was cut short09:45
Nico[m]Nah, I'm ready to move on09:45
Jaymzz#topic Alien Davik support for community devices (15 min – asked by Sefriol)09:45
*** sailbot changes topic to "Alien Davik support for community devices (15 min – asked by Sefriol) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"09:45
dcaliste_Here is the commit done by mal some months ago to move to 0.50.1 :
Jaymzz#info Ongoing topic as well. Would Jolla be interested in doing a blog post which would clarify the current situation (What AD and Android support is, what does it consist, how it is licenced) and what could be done by the community (either by some users with NDA or in general, for device specific ports or Android version specific). "Tech and Strategy behind AlienDalvik" or something similar would be really interesting.09:46
JaymzzAnd the answer:09:46
Jaymzz#info We are looking for possibilities for providing Android App Support for wider audience. The new Android App Support is more flexible on this sense and allows us to provide it with smaller effort for non official ports as well. As long as the device adaptation full fills certain requirements. This requires still some effort and we are not yet there.09:46
Nico[m]dcaliste_: Thank you for all the links, that helps a lot!09:47
leszekthe current AD is snapdragon centric afaik09:47
bionade24Maybe simply unite and use Anbox?09:48
leszekbionade24: that is not "simply" done09:48
leszekad is proprietary09:48
leszekanbox missing the sfos integration09:48
Nico[m]Is AD still licensed from a third party? Could it maybe be opened up a bit?09:49
Venemoif I had 20 cents each time I heard "simply" since I'm working in the software field, I would not need to work anymore because i'd be a millionaire09:49
bionade24leszek: Of course, but we don't have to develop similar things all the time.09:49
pm-guestAD is a nice feature ... but if SFOS is supporting the functions direct like (VoIP, a.o.) then AD would be not so important because we get more native apps09:49
* ApBBB wishes android disappears and more native stuff09:49
Nico[m]pm-guest: That requires a lot of effort though!09:50
schmittlauch[m]Nico: Unfortunately Jolla doesn't seem to be eager to open up more of their "strategic asset" code.09:50
leszekMaybe they can't09:50
Nico[m]For my part, I only need 2 android apps, one which I will replace soon myself (Matrix client) and the other one is the browser...09:50
SefriolAndroid Support is so advanced topic that I think it should be covered in a blog post.09:50
SefriolIt has so many aspects to cover..09:50
leszekFrom what I can see the integration part into the OS regarding wifi, bt and other stuff has been not much done09:50
* schmittlauch[m] points at the effects of the PSD2 regulations @ApBBB09:50
JaymzzVenemo: Let's start putting €1 aside every time we hear "simply" ;)09:51
pm-guestNico[m] But when will we start ... before or after the right time?09:51
rinigusNico: for browser you will be able to use angelfish starting from sfos 3.3. (assuming you are on official device)09:51
leszekrinigus: great work. You also get a lot of praise from the plasma mobile community09:52
vknechtany tips about some minimal requirements ? overlayfs ? some defconfig settings ?09:52
Nico[m]rinigus: That sounds great, although I actually like the default browser, but it is just incompatible with some websites. But if anglefish works well, I will finally uninstall Android support! :D09:52
leszekNico[m]: works for ff-gecko 52 upgrade have begun afaik. Though not sure if early april joke because ff 52 is EOL since 201809:53
rinigusthanks. I tried to move angelfish more towards sfos browser design. cannot fully, as we have to be consistent with plasma, but in part it should be there09:54
Nico[m]pm-guest: I'm sure people are already working on that stuff, but there are only so many hands. And there are also a lot of other issues, that need work, to bring such advanced features up.09:54
Nico[m]leszek: Oh, that sounds great and a bit scary :D09:54
veskuh_webleszek It's step for building newer version. not intemding to release that version09:54
leszekI see. Good09:54
Jaymzz5 min left.09:55
Venemolet's also include "just" and "only" besides "simply"09:55
rinigusvknecht: min requirements are kernel >= 3.5, as far as we learned so far. see sfos flatpak project page, main repo09:55
JaymzzVenemo: We're gonna be filthy rich :D09:56
pm-guestNico[m] ... that's the job to solve problems to build a better SFOS. Waiting is a solution to loose market shares.09:56
leszekmarket share never was the target09:56
SefriolJaymzz Do you feel a blog post about the Android Support is good idea or are we too far from AD being available for other devices that it's waste of time to talk about it?09:56
vknechtrinigus, asked about community Android App support ;-) but infos about flatpack are welcome too09:57
pm-guestleszek: That' not a fun project anymore ... people are working and living for the project. So the market is the level to make income.09:57
SefriolFor many who are interested in Sailfish, lack of AD support is pretty much the roadblock that drives many away09:58
Nico[m]pm-guest: Jolla needs to make enough money to feed its developers and can't just employ an infinite amount of them to work on features. There simply is a limit to how much a small team like Jolla can work on. (I hope that use of simply was appropriate :D)09:58
JaymzzSefriol: I think we should have it concretely in place first before a blog post is due :)09:58
SefriolSince Xperias are not the most popular of devices09:58
abransonvknecht: getting compatibility with container features would be in common there09:58
ApBBBxperias are really nice devices09:58
Jaymzz2 more minutes left on this one09:59
leszekJolla should really start talking with Pines T.Lim to get some millions for more devs :)09:59
vknechtabranson, sounds good09:59
Jaymzz1 min09:59
JaymzzSo, time's up. Moving on in a few seconds10:00
Jaymzz#topic Add aptx, aac, ldac bt support (15 min – asked by Leszek)10:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Add aptx, aac, ldac bt support (15 min – asked by Leszek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"10:00
rinigusjust a comment regarding AD: I don't think I would have actively worked on many projects if I would have AD installed on my device10:00
Jaymzz#info Bluetooth headphones get more popular by the date. SailfishOS should support current technologies like AptX, AAC and LDAC. There is a possibility to do this with this pulseaudio modules:
JaymzzThe only thing I see that would need discussion besides the technical solution is the licensing. I am not sure if its possible to support AptX and LDAC in this way without acquiring a license. Though at least AAC and better SBC could be supported this way.10:01
JaymzzAnswer coming up10:01
Jaymzz#info The implementation is already a fork from mainline PulseAudio, which shows that upstream is not willing to take the implementation, probably mainly due to licensing issues. The same applies with us, we cannot ship these without license, which we do not have. I haven't looked at the latest developments with the fork but probably just taking SBC improvements would not be that simple. As our own (PulseAudio fork) bluetooth10:01
Jaymzz modules are already diverging quite a bit from upstream, it wouldn't be so easy to for example just add the extended bt modules to the side as they most likely wouldn't work. So it would mean the two forks (ours and extended-bt) would need to be merged to get working implementation on Sailfish OS. That doesn't mean it isn't possible of course, both sources are out there.10:01
pasika note about "technical solution" .. while the EHfive provided pulseaudio bt modules are really nice to have, they're also non-upstreamable, and the author doesn't seem to be willing to work with upstream to get them merged.10:02
pasikupstream bluez 5.52+ actually already has the required bits included, to allow supporting multiple a2dp audio codecs, and switching between them10:03
leszekdo we need them to merge? I mean its a module for a reason10:03
leszekAAC should not be a licensing issue afaik. Even AOSP has support for it10:03
pasikbut the pulseaudio bits are *still* being discussed by the developers, and not yet merged. developer called Pali is trying to get the pulseaudio bt codecs support merged.10:03
leszekAt least we could try compile them for SFOS and see what happens10:03
pasikso yeah, that's the "upstream situation"10:03
abransonleszek: think AAC still needs licensing for encoding10:04
pasikTJCs related to this: , ,
leszekand that is not already in sfos? I mean aac encoing?10:05
pasikleszek: yeah trying those modules on sailfish would be good!10:05
abransonleszek: yeah, but not in ffmpeg. it's complicated.10:05
pasikAOSP btw includes LDAC codec out-of-the-box these days10:06
pasikwhich is the high quality preferred codec10:06
leszekI mean it could be also a community thing for now. Not shipped officially but just being compiled on sailfish-build and then land on openrepos but yeah it needs ffmpeg with aac10:06
abransonis that the one for sony headphones?10:06
pasikabranson: well, not just sony10:07
pasikabranson: originally developed by sony :)10:07
leszeksony invented it10:07
abransonthat doesn't need licensing iirc10:07
pasikmost of the pro/hifi bluetooth has started supportin LDAC10:07
pasiklibldac is included in fedora for example10:08
pasikso should be fine10:08
VenemoI guess it could be in openrepos or something10:08
leszekyes ldac is fine10:08
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leszekthe pa modules could also be compiled without aac I think. Only ldac and improved sbc10:09
leszekwould be cool if someone at jolla could test compiling it on mer-build and test it10:09
pasikthere are opensource apt-x / aptx HD codec libraries these days aswell10:09
pasikeven in ffmpeg10:10
Jaymzz5 min left on this10:10
abransonit's merging the EHfive changes into the sfos fork that's the tricky party10:10
leszekabranson: why?10:10
leszekI compiled it against normal debian pa without patching the pa10:10
leszekand it works10:10
pasiklet's hope the support for multiple bluetooth a2dp audio codecs gets finally merged to upstream pulseaudio in the next months..10:11
abransonleszek: in the answer above - you can't just build the EHfive version. there are changes in the sfos fork that need to be merged in.10:11
VenemoI think Jusa would know more, but I don't see him here now10:11
* schmittlauch[m] suppresses the urge to say mean things about the MPEG LA10:11
schmittlauch[m]pasik: source code openness and required patent licenses are 2 different things10:11
pasikschmittlauch[m]: of course10:11
abransonpasik: yeah that's a big prerequisite10:11
leszekanyway. It would be bad if in one year nothing changes on that front and bringing this up here was just a waste of time10:12
JaymzzSo moving on then10:14
Jaymzz#topic general discussion (15 min)10:14
*** sailbot changes topic to "general discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"10:14
JaymzzAnuthing to bring up? I see a lot of people dropping out and coming back in the room10:16
ApBBBqt and gcc aside many parts of sfos start to show their age or be plainly bad. the camera interface for example. and performance doesn't seem to be good. i mean i use a phone that can run fortnite on it and SFOS feels kind of sluggish10:16
leszekjust as note. QtWebkit 5.6 that Jolla ships is full of security and usability bugs, broken css3, javascript and others. I decided for the next webcat upgrade to warn users about that. As Jolla refuses to upgrade to Qt 5.212 and I see no coperation on this matter this is the first step I will take10:16
leszekNext step will be blocking all old QtWebkit users10:16
PekkeliWas Jolla suppose to participate to MWC?10:16
VenemoQtWebkit as a whole is AFAIK obsolete, in favour of Qt WebEngine - correct me if I'm wrong10:17
pm-guestJaymzz: got a connection error( that was the reason.10:17
JaymzzPekkeli: Yes but with no booth.  A few sailors were supposed to be there to have meetings etc10:17
Venemoso, we intend to move away from QtWebkit, but it's kind of too early to boast about any details on this.10:17
leszekVenemo: QtWebkit 5.212 exists though that is not full of security nightmares and bugs10:18
PekkeliOk, so there was not suppose to be any press event by Jolla?10:18
leszekVenemo: I brought this up 2 years ago also10:18
leszekQtWebEngine would need a api as the upstream Qt one is abysmal10:19
ApBBBany news on lipstick getting an overhaul or something??10:19
Venemoleszek: so, about 5.12 - see my previous message above. I would personally love to use 5.12, about QtWebkit - I think we don't really use it in any critical places, do we? still, like I said we would like to move away from QtWebkit completely, eventually.10:19
pm-guestniko[m] and others - May Jolla has less devs for features but if a feature like VoIP-receiving calls is working and in the next release not is not very comfortable.10:19
VenemoApBBB: what kind of overhaul would you be interested in?10:20
leszekVenemo: accounts and email uses qtwebkit10:20
pasikupstream firefox (75+) has recently gotten vaapi/ffmpeg hardware accelerated video decoding/playback on wayland, which is nice. doesn't directly help sfos, I know.10:21
ApBBBrinigus needs it to support xdg shell latest. and performance. interacting with sfos feels slow.10:21
vknechtLittle update about Xperia X aosp9 based port:10:21
vknechtmain problem is booting right every time10:21
abransonpasik: that's good for the pine!10:21
dcaliste_jaymzz, where can I find log for this channel ?10:22
leszekVenemo: problem is that QtWebkit 5.6 is still used and users of my webbrowser complain a lot about broken websites and crashing app.10:22
leszekA webbrowser is a critical app10:22
dcaliste_It's not listed in
Jaymzzdcaliste_: I'll send out links after the meetng is over :)10:23
dcaliste_Ah yes, sure, thanks.10:23
Venemoleszek: our web browser doesn't use it10:23
leszekVenemo: I know. But mine does.10:24
dcaliste_Thanks mal.10:24
Venemoleszek: what can I say?10:24
leszekI don't know. It should've happen 2 years ago. The upgrade to 5.21210:24
Jaymzz5 min left10:24
Venemoleszek: 5.212???10:24
leszekalso accounts and email suffer from it aswell10:24
leszekVenemo: yes 5.21210:24
Venemoyou mean 5.1210:25
leszekno 5.21210:25
Venemois QtWebkit versioned differently than the rest of it?10:25
DylanVanAsscheVenemo (IRC):
rinigusits qtwebkit10:25
Venemowell, like I said, we would like to move away from QtWebkit, so I would suggest you to do the same for your app, too. there isn't really a good reason to invest in it anymore since it is obsolete10:26
leszek5.212 is in active development10:27
leszekand updated just a couple of days ago10:27
rinigusVenemo: but there is no harm in updating qtwebkit to the latest version on sfos10:27
Jaymzz3 min10:27
ApBBBany news on the fingerprint for community devices??10:27
ApBBBnow that i remembered10:28
rinigusits surely better than the current one, if I understand leszek correctly10:28
leszekmiles better10:28
leszekcss3 works, js is not shit and way less security issues10:28
rinigusleszek: maybe you should just make MR at sfos repos with webkit update10:28
M4rtinKalso IIRC QtWebeingine has pretty crazy depndencies and build requirements - there are issues with keeping it building even on Fedore quite often10:28
Venemohow do you justify putting effort into something that we don't actually use?10:28
leszekrinigus: did it 2 years ago10:28
leszekno one was interested10:28
rinigustry to ping it there10:29
leszekVenemo: you use it. Like I said in email and accounts it is used10:29
rinigusVenemo: if we use it in email then its there10:29
Venemoleszek: ok so you're saying that you do have an MR for upgrading to the version you desire, but we haven't responded to that yet?10:29
ApBBBemail app also needs love10:29
leszekVenemo: exactly. No one responded.10:29
M4rtinKusing such an ancient QtWebkit for parsing arbitrary html mail does not seem very secure...10:30
leszekVenemo: it was brought up in multiple meetings before aswell10:30
M4rtinKnot to mention the abysmal performance for more complex html emails10:30
abransonit's not true that no-one was interested. you might not have got a response, but the amount of work required to assess that was too high for anyone to properly assess it.10:30
abransonit's not an MR. it's a replacement branch10:30
JaymzzI'll give this a couple more minutes. But try to wrap it up as we are out of time (and I'm sure most of the Finnish sailors are already having lunch)10:30
leszekVenemo: though the MR is outdated nowadays surely. I did not bother after 2 years of hearing no feedback10:30
leszekabranson: what else can I assume when no one contacts me or shows interest?10:31
rinigusmaybe we should take a risk and update qtwebkit? or should we commit and test on our devices and report back?10:32
rinigusas leszek has it on openrepos, I think10:32
Venemoabranson: can we get that accross to the relevant people?10:32
abransonVenemo: I asked around two years ago, but it's really hard to assess, and high risk as it's used in accounts and email.10:33
JaymzzLet's wrap up :)10:33
Venemoabranson: how about after we stop using it in those places?10:33
abransonnote that the  5.212 version is marked alpha on github too10:34
leszekabranson: its an higher risk to iuse the outdated qtwebkit version in mail and accounts10:34
abransonVenemo: if/when that happens, we'll have a better alternative to webkit ;)10:34
Jaymzzmoving on in 30 sec10:34
abransonleszek: security risk, not a risk of people not being able to read their email or sign up for accounts at all.10:35
Jaymzz#topic next meeting time and date (5 min)10:35
*** sailbot changes topic to "next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – 19th of March 2020)"10:35
Jaymzz#info Next meeting will be held on April 2nd 2020 at 09:00 UTC10:35
leszekabranson: you had plenty of time testing that the last 2 years with my qtwebkit version10:35
abransonI did mention how hard it was to assess as a new branch at the time10:35
Jaymzz#info if the current situation continues with the Covid-19, we may have to postpone the next meeting. We'll keep you updated.10:35
abransonwhat do you mean, plenty of time?10:35
VenemoI think he means that we had 2 years to test it by now10:36
VenemoJaymzz: it's an online meeting, why is it affected by the covid craze?10:36
leszekabranson: the code is there since 2 years. Updated by me all the time. Testing that against accounts and email is done by thousands of people already that did not had a problem using my qtwebkit. Jolla could've done the same10:36
JaymzzVenemo: Sailors may need to concentrate their time and effort on other projects. This comes from the management team :)10:37
JaymzzAlright ending the meeting10:38
JaymzzStay safe out there10:38
VenemoI see10:38
JaymzzTill next time :)10:38
M4rtinKVenemo: yeah - I'm also WFH due to that right now and yxou can't even leave your house in Czech Republic right now without a mask or respirator, not to mention closed borders schools and shops10:38
abransonleszek: it's about balance. it's a minor part of sfos, but not one we can afford to break. like Jaymzz said - we have to be careful with what we spend time on10:38
VenemoM4rtinK: you can tune into an online meeting from home can't you10:38
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Mar 19 10:39:05 2020 UTC.10:39
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday Mar 19h 2020 at 09:00 UTC. Topics can be created here: - Tasks are written and followed here:"10:39
rinigusVenemo: only if we are less than 10, no?10:39
Nico[m]Hm, I'm sad the next meeting is postponed, I hoped I would have something to do from HO :D10:39
VenemoM4rtinK: fortunately we can still leave our houses here... let's hope it stays that way for the foreseeable future10:39
leszekabranson: in other words I should abandon my browser as jolla is not supporting qtwebkit. I understand. No more updates then10:39
Venemoleszek: I think there is no need to be rude toward each other here. we appreciate your concern, but we are a small team and we haven't the time to deal with as many things as we like10:40
M4rtinKVenemo: here you can only go wot work or for groceries, though there is an exception for exercising in parks/nature as long as you don't come near to others :)10:40
VenemoM4rtinK: can you still go to work or for groceries if you don't have a mask or whatever?10:40
leszekVenemo: the rudeness started the other way around imho10:41
M4rtinKVenemo: nope, need to have mask or get fined by police10:41
M4rtinKVenemo: though anything covering your mouth and nose is fine - even a scraft or "bandit style" handkerchief10:42
abransonleszek: I think your current approach is very good. people can install your version to use your browser, and revert if they have problems.10:42
M4rtinKVenemo: also lots of people people are making their own masks at home - the idea is that if everyone has a mask, the chance they will infect others when wearing one drops dramatically10:43
abransonI thought masks still weren't a great way to prevent it, unless you're actually working in a hospital?10:43
M4rtinKVenemo: so any mask will do, unlike the normal case when you wear a mask to protect yourself, in which case you need a very good mask to be safe10:44
abransonmost of the masks you see people wearing are ineffective. i was in london last weekend and there were lots of dust masks everywhere :D10:44
M4rtinKabranson: that's the thing - if they are infected and don't know it yet, even a scarf will catch a lot of droplets that would otherwise come out and ifect others or contaminate surfaces10:45
Venemoabranson: the theory is that the mask helps prevent you from spreading it, but doesn't help prevent you from getting it10:46
abransonhmm not sure it's a correct theory. i read it needs to be a closed mask with an air filter. surgical masks and dust mask just let the coughs blow out of the side.10:46
M4rtinKof course ideally anyone would have high grade respirator, but those are simply not available (yet?) in useful amount10:47
abransonmost important is it avoid transferring it off contaminated surfaces onto your face10:47
M4rtinKBTW, sometimes you even see pople dusting off old (70s/80s) civil defense equipment :)10:48
abransonM4rtinK: but using ineffective masks are not useful to the point where their negative sides outweight the positive. people think they're protected so they forget about touching things and washing their hands. it also makes anxiety in others much worse10:49
abransonanyway, everyone's trying everything they can. i'm not allowed outside without filling a form in. has to be on paper too. poor trees.10:49
Venemoabranson: I think the main point is to make people feel safe, rather than to protect them 100%10:49
M4rtinKabranson: that's the thing - starting from today it is 100% mandatory by government order :)10:50
abransonVenemo: but that leads to complacency10:50
abransonat least you're allowed outside :D10:50
Venemoabranson: basically everything about this situation is stupid10:50
M4rtinKso no need to fear anymore that people will look at you as a fool or plague bearer if you have one, pretty much the opposite10:50
abransoni was calling them 'wombles' if you know about those guys10:51
M4rtinK(hopefully people will continue doing this if they are ill even after this one is over, as well as not comming to work if they are all and other stuff that has been regularly neglected in the past)10:51
VenemoI hope not10:52
Venemothis is ridiculous10:52
Venemoit is nothing compared to the 2015 flu thing, yet nobody bat an eye in 2015 but now everyone is crazy10:53
M4rtinKalso shops other than groceries and pharmacies are closed10:53
M4rtinKas well as all restaurants, only take out is allowed10:53
M4rtinKschools have been closed for a while10:54
Venemobasically they are destroying the economy10:54
VenemoI'm just happy I work in an industry which isn't affected so much.10:54
M4rtinKborders are open only for freight, foreginers can't enter & Czech people can't leave10:54
M4rtinKall in all I think all these measures are pretty sensible & hopefully effective10:55
M4rtinKno one died yet, though a couple people are on intensive care and in rather bad shape10:56
M4rtinKgiven the carnage in Italy it's a bit worrying that some countries seem a bit slow to react, though this seems to be changing10:57
Venemobut is it worth destroying the economy of the whole continent? that's the question10:58
M4rtinKthe destruction given the death toll if nothing was done would be worse10:59
M4rtinKmuch worse10:59
Sefriol60If you trust the results and numbers from China, yes.10:59
M4rtinKquickly applied measures less strigent then what we did worked in Japan, Singapore and Korea11:00
Venemoin China, if you believe the numbers, only a tiny fraction of the population was affected11:01
M4rtinKas for how dangerous this is - the percentages given generally expect intensive care and enogh doctors available to take care of the serious cases11:01
Venemowell, anyway, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do anything, but I think we are currently overdoing it by a lot.11:01
M4rtinKonce hospitals get overwhelmed, the numbers go way up (see Italy)11:01
M4rtinKalso a lot of people with injuries, unrelated health problems, heart attacks would then die as well as hospitals can't handle them11:03
Venemoyeah, that's the problem11:03
Sefriol60China was well contained using very high measures, that could be the reason.11:03
Sefriol60And quite a lot of factories and shipments were put on hold11:04
Sefriol60I think Foxconn just last week went to full capacity11:04
M4rtinKa member of the Czech government (definitely not all fine in general and far from corrupt but quite competent in handling this crisis as it apperas so far) said "now we are saving lives, we will care about public spending deficit later"11:05
Venemowe'll see how it turns out11:06
M4rtinKwhich I'm afraid is the right thing to do now...11:06
Venemowe can compare our numbers to the UK later11:06
M4rtinKVenemo: definitely11:06
Sefriol60USA is like in full panic mode now11:06
Sefriol60Since they clearly noticed that they were well under prepared11:06
vknechttoo bad the ECB still feeds the private banks rather than covering states needs11:07
M4rtinKVenemo: I'm quite worried about UK & USA due to the sluggish and even botched in places execution so far11:07
M4rtinKalso given how bad health care is in general in the USA11:10
M4rtinKin any case, stay well everyone! :)11:11
Sefriol60Well, USA is like 3rd world country : )11:11
Venemoyou too M4rtinK11:11
M4rtinKthanks :)11:11
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