Thursday, 2020-06-11

*** vgtw_ is now known as vgtw07:01
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Jaymzz07:37
*** peperjohnny is now known as peperjay07:57
Jaymzz#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 202008:00
sailbot_Meeting started Thu Jun 11 08:00:10 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020)"08:00
Jaymzz#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
JaymzzI am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.08:00
Jaymzz#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info08:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020)"08:00
Jaymzz#info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla08:00
piggz#info piggz/Adam pigg - community porter08:01
abranson#info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla08:01
ggabriel#info Gabriel - community08:01
peperjay#info peperjay - community08:01
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste - community08:01
birdzhang#info BirdZhang  - community08:01
attah_work#info Anton Thomasson - developer of shitty apps... just watching with half an eye08:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones- sailor @ Jolla (partially present).08:02
pasik#info pasik - community08:02
nobodyinperson#info nobodyinperson: community08:03
JaymzzWelcome everyone :) we'll be moving to the 1st topic of the day in a minute08:04
Jaymzz#topic sailfishos Qt5 upgrade (15 min – by pasik)08:06
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "sailfishos Qt5 upgrade (15 min – by pasik) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020)"08:06
Jaymzz#info community is curious about the current plans and timeframe for sfos Qt5 upgrade, especially with the rest of the sfos toolstack recently upgraded. Newer Qt5 version would obviously help developing native apps and porting existing Qt5 apps more easily to sfos. In earlier meetings it was mentioned Qt licensing isn't a problem anymore for sfos community devices, so that's hopefully sorted out now? Is it likely sfos moves d08:06
Jaymzzirectly to a newer Qt version (such as Qt 5.12 LTS) rather than the old plan of Qt 5.9, which is now quite old already? Any news?08:06
JaymzzAnd here comes the answer:08:06
Jaymzz#info As you have noted we did preparation work for Qt 5.9 earlier. The current plan is still to proceed step by step, but we are not announcing any schedule for the update.08:06
piggz*drum roll*08:06
piggzok, moving on :D08:07
Jaymzzpasik: do you have anything to add? Or shall we move on? the stage is still yours :)08:08
ApBBBthe issue is that this QT delay also delays a lot of cool stuff the comunity is dong :/08:08
rinigusjust to be clear. while no schedule is replied, you plan to move as 5.9->5.12?08:08
nobodyinpersonI think nemomobile just recently went to Qt 5.12, what exactly prevents SailfishOS from migrating? That Silica is closed-source so the community can't help?08:08
pasikJaymzz: I guess not much to add to that.. except all the discussion that comes up :)08:09
abransonrinigus: I think when updating things that are very far behind, it's better to jump at most between LTS versions. otherwise it can turn into a mess.08:09
abransonnobodyinperson: it's a licensing thing. mentioned many times before08:09
nobodyinpersonabranson: sorry08:09
rinigusabranson: maybe. but as nemo is working on 5.12 update already, it could be reasonable to see how well that works08:10
abransonyeah that's true, though as nemo and sailfish vary in mostly qt related parts, it's not a shoo-in08:10
rinigusso, but from Jaymzz replly, we should conclude that the path is planned as 5.6->5.9->5.1208:13
rinigusat least that some kind of specific plan. or do I read it wrong?08:13
birdzhanglol, Jaymzz is offline08:14
dcalisteabranson, just wondering, I thought it was replied at one moment that licensing issues where sorted out, in a way. Are there new issues in that respect ? Or is it for newer versions of Qt only ?08:14
abransonrinigus: not sure if there's much use in that info. intermediate versions may not be released.08:14
rinigusabranson: ok, good to know08:15
piggzis it possible to state clearly which modules have problematic licenses?08:15
abransondcaliste: i think at one point we thought we could proceed with the update and sort the licensing out separately. but couldn't.08:15
abransonpiggz: the whole thing. 5.9 is either GPLv3 or commercial08:16
abransonsome 5.6 modules were the same. they weren't upgraded to 5.6.08:16
Jaymzzlost my internet for a sec08:18
Jaymzzcan you guys see my messages here?08:18
dcalisteOk, thank you abranson, so it may still take a while if it relies on sorting out licensing issues :/08:18
abransonfor someone in sweden, your internet is terrible08:18
ggabrielJaymzz: we read you08:18
flypigWe see them, yes.08:18
Jaymzzok thanks08:18
abransoni though the swedes had the best internets08:18
ApBBBkoreans i think have the best internets08:19
Jaymzzabranson: I guess my connection has gotten some Covid just like the rest of Sweden :/08:19
ApBBBJaymzz put some bleach on it :P08:19
ggabrielJaymzz: if I may summarise, I think there is a wish to know what the plan is wrt versions (i.e., which qt version will be released next)08:19
abransondcaliste: but when that is sorted, then the amount of time needed to actually do the upgrade will be relatively instantaneous :)08:19
JaymzzApBBB: will try!! XD08:19
ApBBBJaymzz the murican way08:19
Jaymzz#info community would like to know which version of Qt we plan to upgrade to.08:20
JaymzzApBBB: Freedom08:20
dcalisteabranson, sure, waiting for it :D08:20
ApBBBabranson are people working on resolving the lisencing stuff??08:20
abransonyeah of course08:21
ggabrielI'm not sure Jolla has the commercial capability to convince developers to change their licence08:21
rinigustbh, I cannot figure out how does that work look like. "I am coming in into the office at 9:00 and now think how to resolve it. OK, its 17:00, time to go - no solution" ?08:22
JaymzzWe are over time08:22
JaymzzNeed to move on soon.08:22
Jaymzzif pasik doesn't have anything more to add, we can move the rest of teh dicsussion to the end of the meeting and move on to the next topic08:23
piggzJaymzz: its probbaly easier to just get the update done, and stop us from asking every other meeting08:23
Jaymzzpiggz: if only it was that easy :)08:24
abransonpiggz: as previously mentioned, we tried that :)08:24
Jaymzzmoving it08:24
Jaymzz#topic sailfishos wayland compositor and xdg-shell protocol upgrade (15 min – by pasik)08:24
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "sailfishos wayland compositor and xdg-shell protocol upgrade (15 min – by pasik) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020)"08:24
dcalisteI'm afraid it's more like: "Boss, could we allow GPLv3 ? no", "Ok, then could we afford the commercial one ? neither". Ok, I'll retry next week.08:24
Jaymzz#info current plans and timeframe for sfos QtWayland and lipstick compositor upgrade to support wayland xdg-shell protocol, which is commonly used these days, and required by for example many flatpak apps which use Gtk/Gdk.08:24
Jaymzz#info We are considering this along with lipstick architecture work that we are planning, xdg-shell may be supported in that work. We are not giving any estimate on when this may happen.08:25
ApBBBisnt this blocked by the QT update??08:26
abransoncuriously, no :D08:26
dcalisteVery good news, then !08:27
dcalisteI thought it relied on upgrading QtWayland though ?08:27
ApBBByeah qt started supporting the latest xdg after 5.10 or something08:28
rinigusabranson: if you would add xdg-shell support without qtwayland update, would you be doing some work which could be avoided with qt update?08:30
abransonit's a bit complicated08:30
ApBBBand since lipstick was mentioned PLEASE make it support multiple screens. it will be needed in the future i am sure08:31
abransonrinigus: don't really want to get into the qt update again, but the amount of effort required to do it isn't a factor at all in why it's not been done. so saving time and effort elsewhere doesn't help.08:33
pasikrinigus: that is my understanding aswell.. basicly qt5 should be upgraded first, to be get the newer QtWayland08:33
ggabrielabranson: +1 I think we should let Jolla prioritise internal dependencies08:34
rinigusabranson: no plan to get into qt update discussion; just don't want to have something done with great effort that will be out of the window soon08:34
abransonrinigus: you mean on flatpak?08:35
riniguson top of qt 5.608:35
abransonyour effort is a different matter :)08:36
Jaymzzdammit I lost connection again08:37
JaymzzWhat is happening today08:37
ggabrielJaymzz: you aren't supposed to talk on the phone while using a dialup connection ;) </jk>08:38
Jaymzzggabriel: hahaha08:38
piggzggabriel: he hasnt got his dsl filters plugged in08:38
abransonrinigus: like the answer said, xdg-shell may during this lipstick work, but maybe not as part of qtwayland, if that helps. can't make any promises though - nothing is certain yet.08:39
ggabrielpiggz: I did say dialup, maybe you're too young ;)08:39
rinigusabranson: thanks08:40
dcalisteabranson, thank you for the insights. Do you think community members could help in certain directions ?08:40
dcalisteI mean, try to backport patches from master QtWayland introducing xdg-shell support08:41
dcalisteor other tasks ?08:41
abransondcaliste: that would still violate the license i think08:41
dcalisteAh, sure, indeed...08:41
abransoni don't think so yet - it's too early. but I'll let people know that you're keen so they can bear that in mind08:41
dcalisteabranson, sure, thanks.08:42
pasikwell, sounds good if xdg-shell might be possible even without qt upgrade..08:42
abranson#info community wants to help with xdg-shell if they can08:42
piggzggabriel: im not too young ;)08:42
abransonggabriel: think you made piggz day :)08:43
ggabrielwe all need a smile, sorry for the off topic08:43
dcalisteNow that libc, gcc, almost all the stack is actively updated, it's too bad that this part is still lagging behind. But I understand the issues and know that the work is huge and mainly behind the scene.08:43
abransonwe can be happy about the updates than have been done though :)08:44
pasikabranson: definitely!08:44
pasikthanks a lot08:45
abransonthere's something else exciting going on in the repos for those who watch them ;)08:45
pasikesr52 update at least08:45
JaymzzTime is up for this one guys :)08:45
abransonpasik: wasn't talking about that...08:45
Jaymzzmoving on to the next one08:47
pasikabranson: I guess I'll have to take a look..08:47
Jaymzz#topic Inclusion of avahi on the official sailfish repos (5 min – by ApBBB)08:47
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Inclusion of avahi on the official sailfish repos (5 min – by ApBBB) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020)"08:47
Jaymzz#info Its quite a useful utility (far easier sshing into something with host name than IP) So its basically a request. Also if there is something prohibiting its inclusion and what can be done to have it in.08:47
Jaymzz#info While avahi might be nice, it raises potential security issues, which needs to be considered. It should be anyway allowed in wifi only and then potentially filtered in local network. While doing this in local network you can assign static ip's either on device end or from your dhcp server and when you can easily also get name based access by adding the ip to either hosts file or in the .ssh/config for example. Thus curr08:47
Jaymzzently there is no plans to include avahi as such.08:47
Jaymzzunhappy much? :D08:48
ggabrielwhat is the issue with ssh right now?08:48
ggabrielI can ssh into any of my jolla devices by hostname since version 108:49
flypigIs your router acting as a DNS server though? I guess not all will.08:49
ggabrielso, what problem are we trying to solve with avahi?08:50
ggabrielyou definitely don't want to advertise services to world+dog lightly, especially on a mobile phone08:50
ApBBBJaymzz a bit bummed since its nice to have for all king of stuff. ie on my pc i can redirect sound with pulse and all that with just afew clicks08:51
ApBBBit discovers outputs automatically08:51
flypigApBBB, there is a community version, could you use that?08:51
attah_workIsn't it possible to have it not advertise by default and only there for reading things?08:52
ApBBBflypig i know i can use it from the community08:52
ApBBBits just that i prefer things done for everybody08:52
attah_workthen people wanting to advertise can reconfigure... and e.g. SeaPrint can use the discovery part08:52
flypigApBBB, okay, just checking. I see where you're coming from.08:53
ggabrielperhpas this question should be split into discovery and advertising modes :) I agree discovery is an interesting feature08:53
attah_worki rolled my own discovery... and i can open that code up to anyone, but still, the actual lib is often the better solution, at least if it can be made to behave08:54
ggabrielyes, there are other applications that discover things on the LAN (any kodi remote to name a few)08:55
ApBBBattah_work i was about to ask how you were handling discovery on the print app08:55
JaymzzApBBB:  I get your point here08:55
ApBBBas you can see it can be used in all sort of things (ie printing attah mentioned)08:56
ApBBBbut a no is a no :/08:56
ApBBBhence the mehhhhh :P08:56
ggabrielApBBB: I think the original answer is concerned about advertising mode, you are talking about discovery mode08:56
attah_workJaymzz: so no even if advertising is off?08:56
ApBBBhopefully a dev can bring it up in an internal meeting or whatever08:56
ggabrielmaybe we should re-ask the question08:56
Jaymzzlet's move on to general discussion and talk more there as time is up for this one08:57
ApBBBok move on08:57
Jaymzz#topic general discussion (15 min)08:57
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "general discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020)"08:57
Jaymzzattah_work: I unfortunately don't have an answer on that08:58
abransonApBBB: maybe a good step would be to package it up. publish it on openrepos and propose it for contrib to the sfos repos?08:58
Jaymzzbut based on the official answer I put up there, I think it would still be a no08:58
ggabrielok, I suggest we follow up on the avahi question - clarify it's only for discovery08:58
ApBBBit is already in openrepos08:58
ggabrieland remove that ssh example, that probably scared whoever answered it08:58
ggabrielJaymzz: why?08:58
abransonApBBB: a recent version? with advertising off?08:58
ApBBBabranson not sure about that. it will also need some page in the settings app for setting it up and stuff if someone wants to make it production ready08:59
ApBBBand yeah just checked the version in openrepos is old09:00
abransoni'm not sure there's be much chance of a sfos UI for it unless there was a clear application for it in the OS09:01
abransonbut that could always be a community app09:01
ApBBBabranson have i ever told you how much i have having seperate apps for stuff that should be in the settings :P09:02
abransonsaw a bunch of similar stuff recently on the media side. things like grilo that could do a lot more with a decent config app on top09:02
ggabrielabranson: thinking aloud, it would be a good idea to redirect loudspeaker sound to sinks available on wan (there's an app for that, but it's a bit inelegant)09:04
ApBBBggabriel thats why we need it in the os itself09:04
ggabrielApBBB: I guess I'm trying to make that point09:04
ApBBBie you should be able to do this from the media plauer09:04
ggabrielcorrect - but the original question wasn't asked properly IMO09:04
abransonnothing wrong with developing the question in one meeting for the next09:06
abransonthere's a ton of stuff we could do with media tbh. lots of potential in things like dlna09:07
abransonin the community too09:07
ggabrielyes, it would be good to catch up to the competition on that regard09:07
ApBBBggabriel in theory you can do a lot of stuff on SFOS as in any linux distro09:08
ApBBBthe problem is that you have to do it in an easy way09:08
ApBBBa gui etc09:08
ApBBBmodifying files by ssh ing on the phone isn't what i would describe as user friendly09:09
ggabrielApBBB: agree; at least redirecting sound isn't as simple to do from the CLI as in a desktop linux09:09
abransonthe sound routing is very complicated.09:09
ggabrielabranson: +109:10
abransonbecause it has to prioritize and mute rather than just mix09:10
Jaymzz4 mins on this09:11
JaymzzActually we may move on, I don't see much happening :)09:12
Jaymzz#topic next meeting time and date (5 min)09:13
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 11th 2020)"09:13
Jaymzz#info Next meeting will be held on June 25th 2020 at 08:00 UTC09:13
JaymzzSo, that's that for today! Thanks all for attending. Gotta go do some tasks before lunch :) see you in 2 weeks!09:13
sailbot_Meeting ended Thu Jun 11 09:13:46 2020 UTC.09:13
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday June 11th 2020 at 08:00 UTC. Topics can be created here:"09:13
ggabrielthanks Jaymzz !09:14
dcalisteThank you everyone.09:15
*** chris__ is now known as cquence21:13

Generated by 2.17.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!