Thursday, 2020-06-25

*** pasik_ is now known as pasik07:32
ggabrielo/ remote__07:55
louisdkmorning :)07:55
Mister_Magisterhaven't been on meeting in quite while07:57
flypigGood morning :)07:59
JaymzzMorning! Starting in a moment08:00
Jaymzz#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 202008:00
sailbot_Meeting started Thu Jun 25 08:00:52 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:00
Jaymzz#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
JaymzzI am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.08:01
Jaymzz#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info08:01
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:01
Jaymzz#info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla08:01
ggabriel#info Gabriel - community08:01
piggz#info Adam Pigg - Community porter/dev08:01
louisdk#info Louis - community08:01
lbt#info David Greaves - sailor and Mer guy08:01
remote__#info remote - community08:01
abranson#info Andrew Branson - sailor08:01
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor@Jolla08:01
Sefriol#info Joakim - Community / dev08:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor@jolla08:02
Mister_Magister#info Mister_Magister - community08:02
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:03
Jaymzz#topic Decouple LUKS password from PIN code (by remote – 5 min)08:06
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Decouple LUKS password from PIN code (by remote – 5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:06
Jaymzzby remote__ *08:06
Jaymzz#info currently LUKS password is the same as PIN code for unlock (numeric). It is very easy to crack it offline. We need an option to have a separate full-keyboard option for LUKS encryption password.08:06
Jaymzz#info Alphanumeric keyboard for device lock is in our plans, but we don't have clear schedule to share as of yet.08:06
JaymzzAnswer ^^08:06
Jaymzzmove on? :)08:07
flypigI'm curious to know about the threat model here.08:07
remote__offline cracking when somebody has your phone for a couple of minutes08:07
Mister_Magisterif package is opensource changing numbers to letters shouldn't be too hard?08:07
flypigSomeone would have to remove the memory though, right?08:07
Jaymzzyou have 4 minutes to discuss it :)08:07
remote__boot into recovery, dump 2mb of luks headers08:07
remote__crack it in minutes08:08
flypigAh, okay, it's the recovery that's the vector.08:08
remote__on gpu[s]08:08
remote__Also, main question is to decouple passwords08:08
ggabrielwell, allowing alphanumeric isn't the same as decoupling08:08
remote__even with alpha-num keyboard nobody would want to enter it every time the phone is locked08:09
ggabrielbut equally, you can have a complex password and unlock with fingerprint08:09
ggabrielso it depends on how precious is your data I guess08:09
remote__so it should be decoupled08:09
Mister_Magisterif you have fnigerprint08:09
flypigHow would decoupling help?08:09
piggz^^even on ported devices these days :D08:09
flypigIf the numeric unlocks the password, without an enclave.08:09
ggabrielMister_Magister: it is pretty common these days - I don't use it, but then my cat pictures aren't so important08:09
remote__enter very strong pw on boot, easier PIN - on every unlock08:10
ggabrielI agree that remote__ was referring to that ^^08:10
Thaodan#info Thaodan Community08:10
ggabrielit's probably not a bad idea to have a "master" password and a "lock" (easier) password08:10
Jaymzz1 minute on this then we have to move on as the schedule is tight today08:10
flypigOkay, it all fits into place from my point of view now, I understand better the request :) Thanks.08:11
JaymzzMoving on :)08:12
SefriolMaybe add a clarification to the topic? i.e. strong pw on bootup Jaymzz08:12
Sefriolor something08:12
JaymzzSefriol: Need to move it as the schedule is tight. Adding more sentences will create more discussion at this moment. Will see what I can do a bit later in the meeting08:13
Jaymzz#topic Implement a hook for wrong PIN code (panic PIN) (5 min by remote)08:13
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Implement a hook for wrong PIN code (panic PIN) (5 min by remote) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:13
Jaymzz#info create a hook for a wrong PIN code, so it checks e.g. /etc/panic-pin for the wrong PIN and if it matches, execs the script in that file, that could for example zero out 4096 sectors (luks header) of /dev/mapper/sailfish-home. For advanced users.08:13
Jaymzz#info This isn't something we have immediate plans for, but the component handling the actual unlocking is systemd-cryptsetup, which is open source. Our systemd packaging is here: We think it would be possible for an interested community dev to create something that does this.08:13
JaymzzAnswer ^^08:14
Mister_Magisterpossibly systemd has some hooks08:14
remote__thanks. I'll take a look into that08:15
flypigPersonally, this would be a neat feature to hvae.08:15
Mister_Magisterthink we can move on08:16
Mister_Magisterjames lagged out :D08:17
ggabrielagain? :D08:17
SefriolDamn these third world countries that do not have proper internet08:17
ThaodanDid you talk about Germany? xD08:18
Jaymzz1Do you read me?08:18
Mister_Magisteraye we do08:18
Jaymzz1My internet has covid. It dies all the time :(08:18
ggabrielwe have to assign some time for Jaymzz1 to reconnect ;)08:18
Jaymzz1ggabriel: yep :(08:19
Jaymzz1Not sure if the bot will read me now08:19
Jaymzz1anyway where are we in the discussion?08:19
Mister_Magisternext topic08:19
Jaymzz1ok let's see if the bot reads me08:19
Jaymzz1#topic I/O Errors on working XA2 (by LouisDK – 5 min)08:19
SefriolSince Jaymmz internet has covid, it must be 5G08:19
ggabrielJaymzz1: change your nick?08:20
Jaymzz1ggabriel: sec08:20
Jaymzz#topic I/O Errors on working XA2 (by LouisDK – 5 min)08:21
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "I/O Errors on working XA2 (by LouisDK – 5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:21
Jaymzz#info I recently did a file system check on my XA2 with Sailfish and got I/O errors. Fearing that my hardware was broken I reached out to Jolla Care which confirmed the same result on their XA2 running Is this expected behavior due to the encrypted filesystem? TJC ticket:08:21
JaymzzI haven't been able to secure an answer for this one yet. So if available sailors have anything to say on this, please go ahead. '08:22
JaymzzIf we don't get to a conclusion, I'd bring this up again during the next meeting louisdk08:23
louisdkJaymzz: Cool08:23
flypigNothing to contribute from me I'm afraid.08:25
Jaymzz1damn :(08:25
piggzmaybe of interest?
louisdkpiggz: Thanks will read the link later. Let's move on :)08:27
ThaodanShouldn't the recovery unlock the partion before?08:27
JaymzzI'm back. Will change my ISP soon. This is unbearable.08:29
JaymzzAnyway, sorry about that, where are we?08:29
louisdkThaodan: good question.08:29
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: next question i believe08:29
Jaymzzlouisdk: should I move on?08:29
piggzthe other thing, if the errors were on rpmb partition, that is an early boot parition, not a user partition08:29
louisdkJaymzz: Sure.08:30
Jaymzz#topic Official Fxtec Pro 1 port (by LouisDK – 5 min)08:30
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Official Fxtec Pro 1 port (by LouisDK – 5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:30
Jaymzz#info There's a pretty stable port of SailfishOS for the Fxtec Pro 1. Due to the hardware adaption the alien dalvik from the XA2 should run on this device. Are there any current plans for making an official port for this device?08:31
Mister_MagisterHey i actually added same topic but about asus 5z just to mock this one :D08:31
Jaymzz#info We are very interested in all projects using Sailfish OS. We are also very eager to support these projects if there is an opportunity to do so. Nevertheless, we do not have an official plan to provide the port for FxTec Pro at this point.08:31
piggz(staying ouf of this one :D )08:31
Mister_Magisterpiggz: we're pretty biased  :D08:32
louisdkJaymzz: alright.08:32
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: feel free to remove my topic aswell cause answer gonna be same :D08:32
Mister_Magisterjolla won't pick up random community ports :P08:32
piggzJaymzz: as a different tactic, would there be a possibility of users purchasing an AD license....maybe without support at a reduced cost?08:32
JaymzzMister_Magister: your topic isn't gonna be here because you were too late with it ;)08:32
piggzthats basically what people are asking for08:33
remote__I suppose Jolla doesn't want to officially support community ports because of the burden to continue that support. Makes sense.08:33
Jaymzzpiggz: for Fxtec?08:33
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: i'm aware just saying don't leave it for next meeting08:33
JaymzzMister_Magister: ok08:33
piggzJaymzz: yes, or generally, if the porter is able to make it work08:33
rinigusstepping in here as a porter... I'd like to acknowledge the work of Jolla's personnel in helping with the ports. thanks for it!08:33
Thaodanmaybe their could some kind of sfos license without any support from jolla for a cheap price08:33
Mister_Magisterwe've talked about it and last time Jaymzz said it's not possible due licenses etc08:33
Mister_Magisterbut ye many ports would benefit (including mine)08:34
ThaodanJust for the label basicly08:34
Jaymzzpiggz: I believe that we are looking into that still. What I know, since it varies from device to device, it makes it difficult and time consuming to maintain over time. But let's see what the future brings on that front. I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.08:34
rinigusits better if people would actually write apps instead of trying to get android back on the phone. the same one they removed before08:34
rinigusin this respect, ported devices are fine already08:35
piggzrinigus: true08:35
Jaymzzrinigus: Sometimes that is not a possibility. for example banking apps in different countries etc.08:35
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: basically if jolla just sold xa2 ad porters would adapt it to ports so porters would have to support it not jolla08:35
rinigusits actually cheaper (in terms of developer time as well), to get a simple android device for banking apps08:35
rinigusJaymzz: ^08:35
piggzrinigus: maybe a cut down version of AD that only runs whatsapp would suit most people :D08:36
JaymzzMister_Magister: That is way more complicated than what you seem to think it is :D08:36
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: licenses etc?08:36
Mister_Magisterit's not like it's first time that topic is here08:36
abransonnot just that. support is complex too.08:36
Jaymzzrinigus: Valid argument, but many people don't want to have an extra device with them. It adds to it being inconvenient08:36
remote__old skool user here: why do people love bank apps on the phone... don't they have a site for it?08:36
JaymzzMister_Magister: not just licenses. liability among other things08:37
Mister_Magisterremote__: some banks now proceed to remove websites cause keeping both website and mobile app is just too expensive so not like you have a choice08:37
rinigusremote__: its not even an app, but login into the bank08:37
remote__that's a very bad tendency. you should talk to the bank08:37
louisdkJaymzz: I think we're getting oft here. Should we move on?08:37
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: yeah yeah i don't think answer will change in next 5 years so we should search still for opensource solution08:37
Jaymzzremote__: As an example, in Sweden, digital identification is becoming ever so popular and for that you need either iOS or Android if you wanna have it on the phone. It makes your life way easier and that's what people want.08:38
Mister_Magisterremote__: not my bank  but that's the future08:38
remote__not the future I want to live in... let's move on08:38
Jaymzzlouisdk: True, yes.08:38
Jaymzz#topic Jolla and public communication (by LouisDK – 20 min)08:38
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Jolla and public communication (by LouisDK – 20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:38
Jaymzz#info Lately Jolla have been quite sparse regarding their public communication. This might make some people nervous about the future of the OS and might keep someone from being interested in and developing apps for the platform. Would Jolla consider keeping the community more updated (eg. by making more blog posts about OS development and insights)?08:38
Jaymzz#info We love this suggestion, and we'd love to write more blog posts, but usually if there are no posts it's because we're hard at work creating new designs, code, functionality and business. But the request is noted and we'll get as much out there as we can.08:38
* Mister_Magister tries not to scream at jolla designers08:39
louisdkJaymzz: alright. I wanted to point out not to forget the community nor social media so the platform still feels active and alive for outsiders and fans :)08:40
dcalisteAbout community contributions in that respect, already following and writing a weekly digest of the commits would give an idea of what is happening.08:40
dcalisteI planned to do this once, but give up due to the work required by writing the diggest every week.08:41
flypigInteresting idea, but yes, not effort-free.08:41
Jaymzzlouisdk: Noted :) Community won't be forgotten, absolutely not!08:41
louisdkJaymzz: Cool. I got my answer. Anyone have something else to add about this topic?08:42
Mister_MagisterCommunity is the powerhouse of the jolla08:42
* ggabriel thought that jolla was affected by covid like everybody else, hence the silence08:42
flypiglouisdk, nice question. It's a very good point to make.08:43
Mister_Magisterggabriel: jolla is mostly remote guys if i'm not wrong08:43
Jaymzzggabriel: we are a bit less affected in that front. Workflow still goes on08:43
* ggabriel is not going to indirectly suggest scapegoats any more ;)08:43
Jaymzzalright moving it08:43
Jaymzz#topic general discussion (15 min)08:44
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "general discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"08:44
SefriolSpeaking of communication: Dev Forum?08:44
Mister_Magisterpiggz: u wanted to move some topic08:44
JaymzzSefriol: Almost there08:44
piggzJaymzz: a questions from a user....08:44
piggzAre there any plans for system wide RTL support?08:44
remote__I'd like to get back to my question about panic-pin.08:45
Jaymzzpiggz: Unfortunately I don't have an answer to that. If any other sailor knows anything on this please chime in08:46
abransonMister_Magister: there are a lot of sailors working remotely, but still a minority. of course during the lockdowns that became everyone, but it was probably easier than most places because Jolla were already very online-focused.08:46
Mister_Magisterabranson: hecc how big is jolla anyways,wasn't it 20-something people?08:47
flypigpiggz, sorry, I'm sure it should be obvious, but what do you mean by RTL? Right-to-left text? Real-time-something? Ride the Lobster (a unicycle race, apparently)?08:47
piggzflypig: i guess right to left text08:47
Mister_MagisterRide the lobster ofc08:47
abransonMister_Magister: more than that. less than fifteen thousand though.08:48
Mister_Magisterabranson: xd08:48
Mister_Magisterabranson: when will jolla start earning moni08:48
SefriolIf you hired everybody laid off by Nokia, you could get into those numbers08:49
abransonrtl = radio luxembourg08:49
Mister_Magisterwhen i googled rtl i found tv08:49
piggzabranson: thats up there with atlantic 25208:49
abransonlong wave!08:50
flypigSystem-wide radio Luxembourg would be a great feature.08:50
flypigSadly I don't know the answer to the text direction question.08:50
abransoni'm embarrassed we don't already have it after so long08:50
piggzabranson: yes, seems like it should be in by default08:51
ggabrielI guess it depends on the customer base needing it, same with japanese input08:51
abransoni bet the rtl is a qt thing?08:51
Mister_Magisterit's sad that sfos doesn't have japanese input by default08:51
ggabrielMister_Magister: making the keyboard is not an easy thing I guess08:51
abransonhebrew is rtl i think. arabic also?08:51
Mister_Magisterggabriel: heckyeah it is08:51
Mister_Magistercommunity did it, jolla can aswell08:52
Sefriolsomething something resources08:52
piggzabranson: you should be embarassed, it was supported in symbian qml components!08:52
Mister_MagisterSefriol: something something sure08:52
abransonpiggz: radio luxembourg?08:53
flypigIt opens up lots of tricky design questions.08:53
ggabriel+extra testing08:53
abransonespecially when there's no supported language that needs it.08:54
ggabrielalthough the competition doesn't test non US English so much anyway08:54
flypigggabriel, yes. It might be technically straightforward, but to actually support it as a first-class feature, that's very hard I think.08:54
* Mister_Magister laughing too hard at system-wide radio luxemburg08:54
piggzspeaking of radio, i see someone released a decent shoutcast app08:55
abransonstop it, i've got bright red08:55
Jaymzz3 min on this :)08:57
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: how's your work at jolla you seem extremely busy08:57
Mister_Magisterwell like every sailor except for mal08:58
abransonmal's the busiest! he practically never stops08:58
Mister_Magisterabranson: but he is also always on irc08:58
flypigabranson, I was thinking the same.08:59
Mister_Magisteris sledges even working still? haven't seen him in ages08:59
JaymzzMister_Magister: My work or in general? I'm not particularly busy compared to many. I am working less hours than before tho :)08:59
Mister_Magisteraye i remember08:59
* Mister_Magister curses jolla recruiters09:00
Mister_Magistervolte when lol09:00
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: will contact u after meeting09:01
JaymzzMister_Magister: you ask this as the time is up ;)09:01
Jaymzzok do so09:01
Jaymzzmoving on09:01
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: just feeling time09:01
* Mister_Magister filling*09:01
Jaymzz#topic next meeting time and date (5 min)09:01
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – June 25th 2020)"09:01
Jaymzz#info Next meeting will be held on July 9th 2020 at 08:00 UTC09:02
JaymzzAlright people, ending the meeting. Thanks all for attending and for your discussions! much appreciated :)09:02
ggabrielthanks Jaymzz09:02
ggabrielgood luck with your internet ;)09:02
Jaymzzggabriel: I'm definitely changing ISP09:02
sailbot_Meeting ended Thu Jun 25 09:03:01 2020 UTC.09:03
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday June 25th 2020 at 08:00 UTC. Topics can be created here:"09:03
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o Jaymzz09:12
*** Jaymzz changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday July 9th 2020 at 08:00 UTC. Topics can be created here:"09:12
* Nico[m] sent a long message: < >11:51

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