Friday, 2020-08-21

Jaymzz#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 202008:00
sailbot_Meeting started Fri Aug 21 08:00:11 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"08:00
Jaymzz#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
JaymzzI am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.08:00
Jaymzz#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info08:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"08:00
Jaymzz#info James Noori - sailor @ Jolla08:00
Jaymzzanyone? :)08:02
mkosolaJaymzz: I thought that this should be at afternoon08:03
mkosolaat least my calendar invite says so08:04
JaymzzWait, I was set at the original time. I don't have the calendar invite it seems like08:05
JaymzzI'll end meeting, I did not pay attention to the time this was supposed to be on.08:05
sailbot_Meeting ended Fri Aug 21 08:05:45 2020 UTC.08:05
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Friday 21st of August 2020 at 10:00 UTC. Topics can be created here:"08:05
kimmoliJaymzz: \o/ ..08:06
tortoisedocguess the meeting has happened alreadu?09:16
ApBBBnope. in about an hour09:17
ApBBB43 mins to be exact09:17
r0kk3rzjaymzz just jumped the gun a little09:24
tortoisedocis jaymzz still around?09:40
tortoisedocbeen a while since I was in the meeting the last time :D09:40
Jaymzzkimmoli: \o/ :D09:48
Jaymzz#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 202010:00
sailbot_Meeting started Fri Aug 21 10:00:20 2020 UTC. The chair is Jaymzz. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.10:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"10:00
Jaymzz#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:
JaymzzI am the meeting’s chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be gentle.10:00
Jaymzz#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info10:01
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with # info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"10:01
Jaymzz#info James Noori - Community10:01
abranson#info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla10:01
Sefriol#info Sefriol - Community10:01
leszek3#info Leszek Lesner - Community + Dev10:02
fridlmue#info fridlmue - Community10:02
maajussi#info Jussi Maaniitty - sailor @ Jolla10:02
karry#info Karry - Community, developer10:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla10:02
nekron_home#info nekron - DevOp10:03
pketo#info Pami Ketolainen - sailor @ Jolla10:03
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - sailor @ Jolla10:03
Santhosh#info Santhosh - Community10:03
Jaymzzfirst topic coming up10:05
Jaymzz#topic AOSP10 based ports (20 min by rinigus)10:05
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "AOSP10 based ports (20 min by rinigus) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"10:05
Jaymzz#info From looking at 4 and Android Q PR specifically, it seems that there is not much activity on development of Android 10 support. I wonder what is the current status of AOSP10 support (in case if it is not all published). If work has not started on it by Jolla developers, whether it is planned and, if it is, when do you plan to work on it.10:05
ljo_#info Leif-Jöran Olsson, community member10:06
Jaymzz#info Android 10 support is on the roadmap, but there is no schedule available that we could commit to at this point.10:07
rinigusJaymzz:  is anyone working on it or started to work on it?10:08
Jaymzzmaajussi: ^^10:09
maajussiI'm sure we have had progress on this.10:09
TheKitThaodan attempted it for community port10:09
rinigusas such, it is good to know that it is in the roadmap and we don't fully switch to linux-phones yet10:10
maajussiIt is also partly related to availability of devices. We've had difficulties mainly due to Covid-19.10:10
rinigusmaajussi: indeed, sony dev support for aosp10 was somewhat delayed, it seems. as far as I know it is there on android side now10:11
maajussiAs well as people can not be at office, sharing devices - it creates a more difficult environment to work on this topic.10:11
ThaodanYes I was working on it but had other matters to work on .10:11
ThaodanAlso I had a device specific blocker and had no intent to work on other devices10:12
rinigusThaodan: do you have aosp10 on your agenda?10:12
rinigus(i.e. have you managed to fix the blocker?)10:12
ThaodanI don't managed to fix it at the moment but I'm working on it10:13
rinigusanything else specific to add regarding aosp10? sailors support10:14
Thaodanclean up modules that depend on it before more changes are coming specific to Android 1010:15
rinigusThaodan: which modules?10:16
Thaodaneverything that's involved with the build system of Android10:16
Thaodanlike hybris boot (PRs for that already exist)10:17
riniguslooking forward10:18
rinigusI think I've got my reply, thank you! please feel free to move on.10:18
JaymzzAlright moving on then10:20
Jaymzz#topic E2E testing in Sailfish (by sefriol – 10 min)10:21
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "E2E testing in Sailfish (by sefriol – 10 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"10:21
SefriolJaymzz died mid sentence10:23
rinigusI suspect he is running a test10:25
Sefriol> all tests passed10:26
JaymzzI'm back :D sorry guys my network failed10:26
Jaymzzwhere were we? how many messages did you get?10:26
PeperJohnnytopic was the last one10:26
Jaymzz#info E2E testing is one of the key aspects to make reliable and tested software, most popular (or atleast user friendly) webapp testers being 1. There seems to be little to no E2E testing capabilities provided as a base line or atleast the documentation is very limited. I stumbled upon
JaymzzOS 2 and which provide some solutions. Is there anything that Jolla uses internally? I would assume that e2e frameworks would also be useful for porters who could more rapidly test out that certain functions do work when porting OS to another SoC or phone.10:27
Jaymzz#info We are using internally qmltestrunner for testing QML components. That tool is available for all ( and qt5-qtdeclarative-devel-tools package in our repositories) and community can use it for testing own applications. For HW testing we are using CSD tools and porters should use that for verifying functionality of different HW features.10:27
birdzhang is not public10:28
flypigbirdzhang, I don't think it's that it's not pugli10:30
flypigAh, sorry, mistyped.10:30
flypigI get "Bitbucket no longer supports Mercurial repositories" so maybe it's just a configuration issue.10:30
JaymzzSefriol: anything to add?10:32
SefriolProbably need to digest this information :)10:32
SefriolBut nothing specific for the moment10:32
JaymzzSefriol: ok maybe we can move on and you can discuss this further (if anything) during general discussion10:33
flypigThe bitbucket code is from the paper, so contacting one of the authors might help.10:33
flypig(I'm sending them an email and will post a link next meeting if I hear back).10:34
PeperJohnnyflypig: thanks for that10:35
JaymzzSefriol: I'll move on in a minute if that's ok with you10:36
SefriolGenerally the code was not in the place stated in the paper10:36
SefriolI just happened to find it10:36
SefriolYes, let's move on10:36
Jaymzz#topic Native Banking Apps for SailfishOS (by sefriol – 10 min)10:36
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Native Banking Apps for SailfishOS (by sefriol – 10 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"10:36
Jaymzz#info Currently, you are pretty much required to have a second device if your bank only allows SafetyNet passing devices to run as credential client. VTB24 seems to have an closed source banking app for AuroraOS 2. Any insight from Jolla’s side if there is any posssible progress in bringing native banking apps to Sailfish.
Jaymzz#info It would be valuable to understand if there are particular enabling technologies that banks require and which should be provided at OS level - without which banking apps won't work. If the enablers (API) are public, the community could provide apps for individual banks/countries.10:37
SefriolSome of the APIs are public (Nordea as a Finnish example)10:38
ApBBBa proper browser would -in many cases- solve the issue of native bank apps. most banks have a nice web interface.10:38
leszek3correct me if I am wrong but banks use proprietary ios or google play services10:38
SefriolBut they do require license to be operational10:38
ApBBBif the bank doesn't want to bring an app to SFOS there is nothing jolla can do10:38
leszek3ApBBB: Jolla could get an Play Services license eventually10:39
leszek3that would make bank apps run via AD at least10:39
flypigSefriol, I'm using one of the Nordea apps on dalvik and it works well.10:39
ThaodanThats kinda a strange joke leszek310:39
SefriolEuropean Banking directive pretty much enables many bank operations through public API10:40
TheKitfor Revolut there is unofficial NodeJS app which provides most of functions mobile app has10:40
ApBBBleszek3 the goal should be to end the android crap at some point.10:40
ThaodanYou need to pass verifaction on android side to run some android apps10:40
SefriolBut usually to use these APIs in production, you need a valid EU license for that10:40
leszek3ApBBB: I don't see how when banks don't even want to support Huaweis HMS10:41
WunderfitzSefriol And that costs a lot of money...10:41
flypigDid anyone try the MicroG's SafetyNet/DroidGuard feature?10:41
SefriolWunderfitz No idea. I did not look into it.10:41
ThaodanIn Germany HBCI/FinTS works very good and we already have an app for that from Wunderfitz called Zaster10:41
ApBBBWunderfitz in the area of what is that cost??10:41
WunderfitzSefriol Well, I did when I was writing Zaster Banker. ;)10:42
Jaymzz4 minutes left on this10:42
flypigIs Zaster Banker still working nicely for German banks?10:42
SefriolWunderfitz Ah, nice :D10:42
WunderfitzApBBB 5 digit Euros at least10:42
leszek3flypig: last time I tried yes10:42
SefriolHow much is "a lot" in this case?10:42
ThaodanOther european banks also have apis but no as standardized10:42
leszek3Afaik those apis allow you to see your bank status but not allow for bank transfers10:43
Thaodanleszek3: HBCI/FinTS does allow that10:43
TheKitI think basically it is hard to talk abotu "banks" in general. Not every app depends on SafetyNet or even GMS, maybe it would benefit to have a whitelist of working apps10:43
ThaodanThis one also:
leszek3Thaodan: really? Uff. I never saw an app really allowing me to transfer money10:44
ApBBBWunderfitz thats not bad10:44
Thaodanleszek3: aqbanking10:44
leszek3maybe my bank does not like it10:44
WunderfitzFinTS is a terrible protocol though and our banks don't hand out test accounts. However, it works at least smoothly here10:44
WunderfitzNext time, I'd probably use the library behind aqbanking and live with the downsides of it10:44
ApBBBi mean if you can make a bussiness case out of it. ie write a lib that everyone can use and charge for the use of it.10:44
ThaodanMany banking apps use it for themselfs so thats why we can use it pretty freely but they don't like to tell you that10:45
flypigWunderfitz, how easy would it be to extend Zaster Banker for other protocols? If I were interested in creating an app for a particular bank, would that be a good place to start?10:45
flypigThose are nice finds Thaodan.10:45
leszek3I wonder if it would be easier to provide credit/debit card nfc payment in SFOS10:46
Wunderfitzflypig Currently, it's more or less bound to the flow and the status handling of FinTS (yes, this f***ing protocol is NOT stateless), so it might be quite some effort10:46
SefriolMoney  transfer is probably bank by bank basis10:47
SefriolBut for many Finnish banks that I looked into, money transfer is also possible through API10:47
Jaymzztime is up for this one guys, try to wrap it up please :)10:47
flypigWunderfitz, thanks, that's too bad, but I'm not so surprised these things are hard to abstract. At least the protocol exists.10:47
JaymzzSefriol: I have to move on to the next one. We don't have more time on this :)10:49
Jaymzz#topic Separating QML components from closed source and publishing them to git (by sefriol – 5 min)10:49
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Separating QML components from closed source and publishing them to git (by sefriol – 5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"10:49
Jaymzz#info This has come up before. Currently, if community sees a bug or wants to propose a change in core app’s UI, the source is only available within the phone / emulator / SDK. Is there a problem with separating these components from the closed source repositories and publishing them in gitso that community could do pull requests on them?10:49
Jaymzz#info This is something that could be made possible, by for example mirroring the QML code in git. We would need to alter the licence and hold the copyright for all contributions, but the possibility to do this exists. Action taken to study this further.10:50
flypigSpeaking personally, I think this would be a great idea.10:52
SefriolYeah, community wants to help, but if suggestions for changes are done through TJC / email they are never going to happen10:52
flypigRight, it's about offering a process people can use.10:53
ApBBBresolving stuff is an ongoing problem10:54
SefriolDepending on how it's structured, QML components could be put into a git submodule as well?10:54
flypigApBBB, what do you mean? (sorry, I'm not fully understanding).10:54
SefriolSo it's easy to integrade changes done by the community without need for separate repos for Jolla10:55
maajussiI agree, this would be something that we need to dig into. I need to collect more information inside Jolla what this requires, but I fully agree on the proposal.10:55
rinigussuggestions made by PRs are not guaranteed to happen either, btw. it is largely depending on current Jolla priorities10:55
leszek3In general I am for this. But would it not create problems with the apps not being fully open source? Like conflicts between new backend features (proprietary) and frontend commits10:55
Jaymzz#action maajussi is going to dig more on this topic and get back to the community10:55
SefriolBut atleast there are PRs where people can have disccussion and suggest changes10:56
ApBBBflypig not ongoing. long stanging. my mistake10:56
flypigleszek3, I think it it was a mirror of the latest release, that wouldn't be a problem.10:57
ApBBBflypig what i meant is that stuff proposed or bugs or whatever takes a long time to get fixed and sometimes never does.10:57
ApBBBflypig a great example of this is the maps situation.10:58
flypigApBBB, okay, I get you. Yes, I see what you mean. This wouldn't be a magical fix for that, but might help.10:58
Jaymzzwe are over time on this right now. let's try and wrap up10:58
JaymzzSefriol: I will move on now :)10:59
Jaymzz#topic Multiple 2+ cameras support (by Mister_Magister – 15 min)10:59
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Multiple 2+ cameras support (by Mister_Magister – 15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"10:59
Jaymzz#info Lately i’ve successfully created initial support of multi-camera. On some devices auxiliary cameras are provided same way as other 2 but sfos is based around front and back camera while we need to support camera id 2 and higher. My initial changes are nowhere near merging, but it’s something jolla should start think about regarding jolla-camera ui.10:59
Jaymzz#info It seems multiple cameras are in common place for the device category we have been supporting in co-operation with Sony Open Devices. It is likely that we will support this in future.11:00
JaymzzMister_Magister: you there? :)11:00
leszek3yeah pinging him on telegram11:00
flypigKudos to Mister Magister for getting something working.11:00
flypigCan anyone share which devices he's working with?11:02
leszek3Asus Zenfone 5z11:02
leszek3I donated money he can port SFOS on it11:02
Jaymzzseems like he isn't in the chat. But he has asked on his topic for others to discuss it if they have anything to add.11:03
TheKitPro1 of recent community ports also has multiple camera, but it seems to be not exposed the same way as on 5z11:03
SefriolMister_Magister here11:04
Mister_Magisteraye im here11:04
leszek3he is joining now11:04
leszek3there he is11:04
ThaodanSome like the Xperia XA2 Ultra expose the two cameras as one11:04
Mister_MagisterTheKit: yeah pro1 won't work cvause second camera is for bokmeh effect but if you have wide angle it should work11:05
Mister_Magisteri have built packages so community can test11:05
leszek3Anyone knows how the second camera on the xperia 10 plus is exposed? Also as one camera or two cameras?11:06
flypigMister_Magister, could you provide a link please?11:06
leszek3afaik the second cam is a zoom one11:06
Mister_Magisterbut if my PR gets merged then there  won't be camera primary and secondary there will be 0,1,2,3 etc and each with info if its backwards or front facing. it needs to be implemented in jolla-camera  and given thought by designers11:06
Mister_Magisterleszek3: you can check if there are more than 2 cameras using droid-camres11:06
Mister_Magisterflypig: literally PR in gstdroid and qtmultimedia11:07
leszek3how exactly though?11:07
Mister_Magisterand packages are on obs somwhere11:07
Mister_Magisterleszek3: droid-camres will display you resolutions for all cameras11:07
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: the long message above is for you11:08
Jaymzzshall we move on Mister_Magister?11:09
flypigJust for the log:11:10
Mister_Magisterthanks flypig i barely woke up. I'm working with abranson on fixing those patches but it will take a awhile for me11:10
Mister_Magisterif jolla or community wants to help, welcome11:10
Mister_MagisterJaymzz: we can now11:11
Jaymzz#topic general discussion (15 min)11:11
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "general discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"11:11
Mister_Magister*rolling tumbleweed*11:13
fridlmueAre there any plans of Jolla stepping up with Pine64 to make a "community edition" of Pine Phone with SailfishOS/Jolla? Would love buying that.11:13
leszek3so I worked on some qtmultimedia patches:
flypigSefriol, just from earlier, nice finds with those E2E testing links. That paper is interesting.11:13
rinigusmaajussi: so what is behind OBS and
leszek3problem is they are backports from newer qt versions. And that leads to licensing issues apparently11:14
ApBBBany news regarding the wayland xdg protocol in Sailfish ???11:14
Jaymzzfridlmue: not that I know of at least. maybe maajussi has more info :)11:14
leszek3That is a big issue I think11:14
flypigleszek3, great!11:14
flypigleszek3, ah, not so great.11:14
Mister_Magisteralso gstreamer broke11:14
flypigleszek3, the patches are GPLv3?11:14
Mister_MagistereglGetCurrentDisplay doesn't work apparently11:15
leszek3I wonder if someone knowledgable with licensing can take a look at it again. I mean otherwise we end up with a almost unusable streaming experience for sfos11:15
Mister_Magisterleszek3: works for me!11:15
malApBBB: what would that need?11:15
maajussifridlmue No news on pinephone. We have couple of devices in the group, but there is no official commitment to establish a project on them.11:15
Mister_Magisterother problem is /maybe/ being fixed by mal11:16
malMister_Magister: ?11:16
Mister_Magistermal: changing video format11:16
leszek3flypig: from my side whatever you want them to be. As for qt5 probably11:16
ApBBBmal its old and keeps things back in community stuff. like flatpack11:16
Mister_Magistergstdroid cannot reconfigure video if it was already configured11:16
flypigleszek3, can you usefully separate your own changes out?11:16
Mister_Magisterand that breaks DASH11:16
Kabouik_Pardon me if this is not the right place, but since it's now general discussion, asking just in case: are there any chance Jolla will support this in Lipstick one day? This is HDMI out on a port for a device that has the hardware for it: It's been shown to work, would be great to have it for other phones that have the hardware11:16
ApBBBie gtk wont work with it11:16
malApBBB: so does it need something for qtwayland? our wayland is quite new11:17
fridlmue@maajussi Jaymzz Thank you for the info. I think this could be worth it. Could also generate more Community and Developers.11:17
TheKitmal: needs newer qtwayland11:17
ApBBBmal its a compositor issue as far as i understand11:17
malTheKit: which version brings that?11:17
leszek3flypig: I linked to the originally patches. You can see that some are modified as the filename changed or is not the same or the function names are different11:17
ApBBB5.10 5.12 was the version but abranson said they can work around it i think11:18
flypigKabouik_, this is a perfectly good place to ask :) I'm not sure of the answer though.11:18
flypigleszek3, okay, so it's all changes to existing patches? I think that's still an issue then, from a licencing perspective, unfortunately.11:18
leszek3Some of the patches are really trivial like the play when buffer is full patch11:19
TheKitmal: 5.9 brings basic support, 5.12 is better11:19
flypigleszek3, yeah, that's a real problem though. If the copyright belongs elsewhere, then the licence sticks to it.11:19
flypigleszek3, even for very small changes.11:19
maajussirinigus the git and OBS changes is part of making everything (hopefully) more simplified and easy. It is not an easy question, or an easy decision, lot of different things that impact. Cost, naming, required effort vs gain...11:19
flypigI suppose.11:19
flypigSorry, my "I suppose" was in reply to myself, not in reply to maajussi.11:20
abransonApBBB: no, I didn't say that :)11:20
rinigusmal: newer protocols in compositor support by qtwayland will allow to handle gtk apps in flatpak-runner (wrapper compositor used by flatpak apps)11:20
leszek3flypig: this is totally ridiculous. So adding a comment or a variable name in a patch under a different license and no one can ever use this variable name11:21
rinigusmaajussi: killing OBS does not like it is going to make it easy for us.11:21
ApBBBabranson ok i don't remember exactly how you worded it but you said something like it is doable to have a later xdg without a qt update. i don't remember exactly11:21
rinigusmaajussi: but probably this information and discussion should be continued in the forum11:21
flypigleszek3, well, obviously it's not quite that straightforward, but these are legal matters.11:21
Kabouik_If I may add to what rinigus just said, I've also seen non-SFOS developers being discouraged from porting their Wayland apps to SFOS just because they realized they had to add code for deprecated protocols (wlseats, xdg)11:21
TheKitcurrently sailfishos-porters-ci can already build rootfs image for ports. I think extending GitLab CI configs to build adaptation packages instead of OBS is possible, but certainly doesn't make life easier11:23
rinigusmaajussi: while replying to the reasons regarding killing OBS, please be specific. as I said in the forum, it is one of the services that makes development easier11:23
maajussirinigus yes we should, and I know that everyone agrees on your statement. If we would not have OBS - if it comes to that ... we need to find a way to do this, that wouldnt require extra effort.11:23
Kabouik_I meant wl_shell in fact, now deprecated and replaced by xdg_wm_base11:23
leszek3flypig: its really a bummer that trivial technical solutions for issues are blocked by stupid licensing rules11:23
flypigleszek3, I totally agree. I mean, really.11:24
flypigleszek3, but this is not just a sailfish thing. It's pretty much universal as far as I can tell.11:24
rinigusmaajussi: do I read you correctly - is it mainly admin and breaking hardware costs?11:25
Jaymzzguys, time is up, I see there still is a lot of active discussions. So I give it a few more mins but please try to wrap it up11:25
rinigus(re OBS: let's continue in the forum)11:26
maajussirinigus lot of it is about cost for sure, but that is not the only driver.11:26
maajussiLet's continue and elaborate in forum!11:26
rinigusmaajussi: looking forward for it11:26
flypigleszek3, just to say, thanks for that patch.11:27
Kabouik_Any answer to the hdmi-out question above? A patch has already been shown to work years ago on a device port, would be great to have it included in Lipstick for other devices now, which are getting more common with hardware support for this feature11:27
malKabouik_: not sure how much changes it would need to lipstick11:28
Mister_Magisterwhat? u removing obs?11:28
Mister_Magisterwell you coould switch to upstream and build on opensuse obs with all new shiny packages basing on leap but who i am to dream11:29
flypigKabouik_, I'll create an internal issue for it, but that doesn't guarantee any progress of course.11:29
leszek3flypig: yeah hopefully the licensing issues will be solved soon with newer Qt version. I think when Qt 5.9 or 5.12 is coming some of those patches are still valid11:29
flypigleszek3, it seems that would solve the issue, nevertheless it's a shame it can't be merged now.11:30
leszek3especially the memory leak ones make improve battery life if I see it correctly11:30
Kabouik_Of course flypig, but thank you, that is already something11:30
leszek3and streaming of course11:30
JaymzzAlright people, wrap it up already! Moving on in a few moments11:30
SefriolSo what's the status with Qt? ;)11:31
Mister_Magistermal: how are devs supposed to make ota? host it themselfs?11:31
Mister_MagisterSefriol: whats status with throwing away money because of keeping packages closed source? :D11:31
Jaymzz#topic next meeting time and date (5 min)11:32
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration – August 21st 2020)"11:32
leszek3Qt Upgrade develops to a never ending story11:32
JaymzzAlright so we will go back to the normal schedule from the next meeting, every two weeks on thursdays.11:33
Mister_Magisterleszek3: same as opensourceing. we are getting nowhere and no effor is being put into it11:33
Jaymzz#info Next meeting will be held on September 3rd 2020 at 08:00 UTC11:33
Mister_Magisterjolla should also fire their android designers11:33
leszek3what android designers?11:34
JaymzzNeed to end the meeting guys. Have other things to do :) you can continue the discussion if you like :)11:34
sailbot_Meeting ended Fri Aug 21 11:34:15 2020 UTC.11:34
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Friday 21st of August 2020 at 10:00 UTC. Topics can be created here:"11:34
Mister_Magisterleszek3: pull down from the top on sfos and see android design copied11:34
Mister_Magistermal: so porters will have to host ota themself right?11:34
malor create some common place for hosting things11:35
Mister_Magisterreally, is money situation that bad?11:35
Mister_Magisterim sure you could talk to opensuse to build your packages on their obs11:36
leszek3I think jolla could ask the community for hosting money for the obs servers11:36
Kabouik_That does sound like it could be a significant hit to the porting efforts indeed11:36
Mister_Magisterleszek3: jolla could ask community to do many things but they just love throwing money away11:36
Mister_Magisteralright bois i'll throw something together11:36
leszek3nah. I can understand having more control over certain things and also being reliable11:36
tortoisedocsorry from my side jolla has one way to get more money, and that's by supporting more devices11:38
tortoisedoc / selling more licenses11:38
leszek3tortoisedoc: that means also investing more money to support those11:38
tortoisedocit takes money to make money leszek211:39
tortoisedoc*leszek3 :D11:39
tortoisedocthis whole offline-ing of services is not a good sign11:39
tortoisedoc(obs, tjc, git)11:40
tortoisedoceither the end of the line11:40
tortoisedocor worse, a shift towards closed-source11:40
tortoisedoc(Nokia style)11:40
leszek3I would not see it so dramatic. Its probably cutting costs11:41
leszek3and corona crisis is hitting everyone11:41
leszek3so not bad to cut something to save some money11:41
rinigusif it is cutting costs, they should clearly say so. right now we are getting "complicated" all over the place11:41
tortoisedocthat's by itself already a writing on the wall11:42
malgit makes also sense, now packages are split into and github which is a bit confusing11:42
tortoisedocand then on the other side, you have HMD which is flooded with money from all over the place11:42
tortoisedoc@mal true that! licensing matters might apply as well11:42
leszek3tortoisedoc: though you don't hear much from HMD. They are flooded by money as they were probably in big shit trouble11:43
maltjc was not as practical as the new forum11:43
tortoisedoc@mal true that too11:44
rinigusmal: what is strange with the git - they just moved there. was it a year ago?11:44
tortoisedocrinigus : when ms acuired github?11:44
rinigusnot sure, 2020 beginning? or 201911:44
rinigusI referred to move from mer git to sfos git11:45
malrinigus: it was just renaming of the old git11:45
rinigusmal: ok, I had an impression that it was more. my bad11:45
flypigKabouik_, just creating that HDMI issue, do you know of a relevant TJC post that discusses it?11:46
malrinigus: so the only thing that can be argued is OBS, other things make sense11:47
rinigusin this respect, obs is way bigger step down. and we will have to figure out how to replace it11:47
leszek3yeah obs is really really sad11:47
rinigusleszek3: it is not sad, it is making porters work way harder. projects like maps are hugely impacted11:48
rinigus... nemo as well11:48
rinigusso, if that obs is closed, some similar (or better) solution should show up11:49
Kabouik_I'm not sure flypig, there are some topics on MHL support but most of them are almost empty since they were posted at a time when not many devices supported it, and there were fewer ports11:50
riniguslet's see what we will get as an official reply and how do they plan to work with the devs on replacing obs11:50
flypigKabouik_, yeah, that's what I saw too. It's not a problem, I just thought there might be something neat to link to.11:50
Kabouik_I opened this one on the Pro1 port repo:, but I think it shouldn't be a port-specific issue since this is a Lipstick patch. Still it provides some useful links to the commits11:50
flypigKabouik_, thanks, that's useful. I include a link to that too.11:51
Kabouik_Excellent, thanks. There's a child issue: cursor support ( Elros34 has been working on improving the situation through qxcompositor and a qt plugin.11:52
Kabouik_Those two together could mean dock mode in for SFOS, similar to what Android, Mobian, PmOS or UBPorts do11:53
Kabouik_But this is a stretch compared to what we discussed here today on hdmi of course11:53
flypigKabouik_, that'd be really cool, I'd love that :) But yeah, I'm not sure whether this would be a priority in general. Let's see.11:54
flypigKabouik_, you might want to bring it up again in a future meeting, just to see if there's any news (and I'd be interested on what happens to those PRs too).11:55
Kabouik_Sure, thank you. This was my first meeting in 8 years of SFOS use, somehow I always missed the others.11:55
flypigWell, it's good you came. I definitely hope you'll be back then :)11:57
Kabouik_Not sure if you saw what can be done already with chroot or lxc, but really it's pretty close to that point. And it's real desktop distros and WMs, so far superior to the dock mode in Android. I can provide link if you are curious (not for the issue). And cursor works on some devices with Elros' hacks already11:57
tortoisedocKabouik_ links yes please :)11:58
flypigSeconded: links please!11:58
Kabouik_However after much talk with the harbour-containers (lxc) developer, I know he's frustrated by this other issue that was brought up by rinigus and thekit on deprecated qtwayland protocols, xdg support would make everything easier and more secure if I understood correctly11:59
Kabouik_I already spammed that video quite a lot but it's a nice demo I think, also check the links to repos in the description:
flypigThank you!12:00
flypigI gotta go, but thanks for the vibrant meeting :)12:00
Kabouik_Works with Onboard as virtual keyboard too, and now kinda with usb-mouse too12:00
Kabouik_See you, thanks for your time!12:00
PeperJohnnythat video looks promising12:02
Kabouik_I use it every day now, more than my native apps (probably because the hardware keyboard makes it convenient even on the move, and with a tiling WM I don't need to tap accurately on small things)12:03
Kabouik_But on other devices with Onboard as vkb (, this could really be amazing too when/if cursor and hdmi-out are officially supported one day12:03
PeperJohnnyI guess that is the same that the pine folks do on the other OSs?12:03
PeperJohnnyor other OS folks on pinephone :D12:04
Kabouik_I think Pine folks boot the Linux distro, either PmOS or Mobian (the latter works on Pro¹ too thanks to the dev of the LXC app)12:04
Kabouik_While here it's the distro inside a Sailfish app, so you still have SFOS alongside it12:04
PeperJohnnythat's a thanks from me too for making me aware of that12:05
Kabouik_I'm just a lucky user who was fortunate enough to test an early build and now have a well configured container, didn't do anything more than testing for the dev12:06
Kabouik_Also, it's Firefox desktop, latest version. :< Feels great.12:06
Kabouik_It's lacking hw acceleration though.12:07

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