Thursday, 2020-10-01

*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 1st of October 2020 at 7:00am UTC"06:18
sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 1st October 202007:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Oct  1 07:00:00 2020 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 1st October 2020)"07:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave, respect the timings and be polite.07:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 1st October 2020)"07:00
Nico[m]#info Nico, Community07:01
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva - privateer for Jolla07:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä - community07:01
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - sailor @ Jolla07:01
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar, sailor @ Jolla07:02
santhoshmanikand#info Santhosh Manikandan - community07:02
abranson#info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla07:02
sledgesno topics today, gen. discussion only:)07:05
sledges#topic General Discussion (30 min)07:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "General Discussion (30 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 1st October 2020)"07:05
Nico[m]So 3.4 was a giant update! The new browser engine is amazing! I didn't think that just 58 would make such a big difference!07:06
ExTechOpSailfish Pallas-Yllästunturi landed, any new issues crop up?07:06
Nico[m]On the other hand, it seems like upgrading was not very smooth: It deleted all my wifi connections and it bricked quite a few phones. Do you think we'll see a second EA release?07:07
ExTechOpIndeed, took me a moment to notice that I was no longer on my wifi.07:08
riniguswith long term future of OBS being shaky at best, should we expect 3.4.x.y targets on it?07:08
Nico[m]Also, is the next browser engine update already being worked on or will other areas be focuesd on for now?07:10
abransonrinigus: of course, it's been made clear that OBS isn't going anywhere until alternatives are in place07:11
rinigusabranson: excellent, thank you very much!07:11
abransonthere's really no need to panic07:12
abransonNico[m]: you can see the progress on ESR60 in the browser repos07:12
abransonthat's why there's rust now07:12
rinigusindeed, "no panic" is reasonable. :)07:12
ThaodanI think also some stuff like some phones that look bricked is hard to test for, especially if you install packages that mod the system.07:13
ThaodanThinks like aliendalvik control are a huge source of problems07:13
ViGeNico[m]: I suppose the answer to your question is "yes, it is being worked on already" - as you can see from the abovementioned browser repos07:13
rinigustechnical blog is upcoming, as mentioned in release notes. please cover aarch64 aspects and gles3 support. or write up somewhere what it means for ports and official devices.07:13
Nico[m]abranson, ViGe: awesome, thanks :D07:14
Nico[m]Thaodan: Funnily enough, aliendalvik control didn't cause issues on my system. But yeah, those things are hard to test07:15
ThaodanI think for aarch64 will come more once there is Sailfish X support there and the hadk gets updated07:15
abransonthose overlay apps are especially problematic. we'd even blacklisted aliendalvik-control 9.2.0 in this release to prevent people booting to a blank screen. but then 9.3.0-1 appeared the same morning as we released 3.4.0 , which tried to solve the problem but was a bit broken too :/07:15
rinigusThaodan: so we cannot switch yet over to 64bit stack fully?07:16
Nico[m]abranson: aww, that sucks... But good try, I guess :D07:16
Nico[m]rinigus: ABI is not stable yet07:16
Nico[m]So I expect breaking changes :307:17
riniguswith SFOS X - the program got stalled a bit (haven't checked the repos though). but I guess you cannot say much over here about it07:18
abransonNico[m]: yeah, though the attempt is appreciated. there is a new system in 3.4.0 which will warn you if you have packages installed that aren't from the system repo that might interfere with the upgrade process. of course that will only work on the next release, but it should prevent these half-upgraded system problems.07:18
Thaodanrinigus: its still early I think and things will be fleshed out once things a port that is open to the public07:18
Nico[m]Btw, I noticed it has become increasingly hard to update on Xperia X devices, since Sailfish is almost 1.5GB big now and the root partition is like 2GB, so 500MB updates get tight! Is there a good solution to that apart from doing smaller updates? :D07:19
ViGeNico[m] is right - the aarch64 ABI is not stable yet, and there *will* be breaking changes. So you can play around with it, but expect to rebuild everything later on...07:19
Nico[m]abranson: How does that work? Does it flag all packages or just those, that modify similar files?07:19
Nico[m]I think something like the latter was mentioned in the release notes07:20
rinigusthanks for insights regarding aarch6407:20
abransonNico[m]:  It should still be enough to update, but maybe its more the case that an older installation would have accumulated cruft. we should have lists of places to check for mess, like /var/log07:20
flypigThere's the info page under Settings>Storages that helps with some of that cruft.07:21
rinigusre updates and storage: maybe should use system_a for those official devices that have it?07:21
malthere is already one community device using aarch64 by me, not public yet because it's not perfect07:21
ExTechOp"Perfect is the enemy of good" :-D07:22
rinigusmal: knowing you a little bit, it will never be perfect by your standards07:22
ThaodanNico[m]: Also community packages should have no vendor set and Jolla packages have vendor: meego07:22
abransonNico[m]: no third-party package should be involved in the upgrade at all, even if it needs to be uninstalled because the libs it depends on have changed. these problems occur when uninstall hooks try to run in these packages that don't work in the upgrade environment. if one is present in the pending transaction, then you get warned.07:23
malin the original 32-bit build for that device there was a graphics hack and some small issue with fingerprints, aarch64 build has also issue with video recording in addition to that07:23
rinigusmal: looking forward to see those changes ... it is great that there is a progress on aarch64. I presume it is aosp10 as well, right?07:24
Thaodanrinigus: no its not07:24
malthat is hybris-16.0 based07:24
ThaodanAOSP10 is still wip07:24
rinigussounds like they both are.07:25
abransonone's pretty much done, the other has really just started07:26
Nico[m]abranson: I tried very carfully to check for cruft. I do have 20mb of logs or so, but I was missing like 200mb. In the end I uninstalled a few apps and that worked, but it took a while and is probably not that easy to do for less technical users.07:26
malrelated to interesting things, I should try to finish my vulkan support at some point07:26
Nico[m]Also, the upgrade stuff is ineresting, thanks :307:27
rinigusnow I have to ask - which one is almost done and which one just started?07:27
abransonwell the 64bit one has actually been mentioned in the release notes, which should give you a clue :)07:28
Nico[m]Also, has there been some consideration regarding the overlays in the mail app? The don't look very Sailfish :307:28
abransonNico[m]: I think also there might be some apps that put too much stuff in /usr/share that could go somewhere on the home partition where the space is07:28
flypigNico[m], currently debug packages are stored in the system partition I believe. If you have any of those installed, it can help to remove them.07:28
Nico[m]abranson: Well, since it was announced, it means we will never see it?07:28
Nico[m]flypig: Ah, that can be, I debugged quite a bit on my device :307:29
sledgesNico[m]: flypig: Developer tools has new setting to store debug symbols under home07:30
flypigsledges, I missed that. Nice :)07:30
Nico[m]It would also be nice to have an official way to contribute to the silica docs, they have some issues, like using Column properties only available in 5.6, but only importing Quick 2.5...07:30
Nico[m]sledges: Oh, cool, thanks for the tip :307:31
sledges5mins remaining everyone07:31
abransonbefore that, you can't beat a 'zypper rm *debug*' to free up a bit of space07:31
Nico[m]Also, switching users shows a garbeled texture for a bit, I guess I should report that in the forums...07:33
abransonthough that now removes 'jolla-developer-mode-home-debug-location' which probably isn't best :D07:33
Nico[m]abranson: That's why you run it before enabling the option!07:34
abransonzypper rm *debug[si]* is much better07:34
ExTechOpAnyone have suggestions on adding Google Hangouts connectivity, haven't had it since Sailfish dropped support?07:35
Nico[m]ExTechOp: I think Google changed their sign in stuff again, which broke everything07:35
abransonExTechOp: there's still no public API for that, is there? it all depends on apps people have reverse engineered and it's a cat and mouse game when google change something. I liked that Hangish app but the dev stopped working on it.07:36
sledges#info Summary of discussion: ESR60 is progressing. 3.4.0: fixable niggles should warrant another RC, 64bit support is experimental, new "Store debug symbols to home partition" setting in Developer tools should ease future updates (those devs still on 3.3.0 can helped themselves to `zypper rm *debug[si]*`)07:37
flypigVery succinct :)07:37
abranson^ first rate chairing there07:37
Nico[m]Good summary :307:37
sledgesspeaking of which, time's up ;) any last words to extend? :D07:38
sledgessilence means consent:))07:38
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)07:38
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 1st October 2020)"07:38
sledgesProposing 15th October at 7am UTC07:38
Nico[m]I think I'm good. I have so much I could talk about the update, because it is so awesome, but... that would take too long :307:39
sledgesthanks for good words Nico[m]07:39
* sledges enjoys the silence together with Depeche Mode07:41
Nico[m]Good choice :307:41
Nico[m]But as we all know, if none disagrees, everyone agrees.07:42
Nico[m]So I guess 15th is good07:42
flypigI can't think of a reason to object to 15 October :)07:42
ExTechOpI guess so.07:42
Nico[m]7am sounds early, but probably because of the timezone07:42
flypigIs there anywhere on UTC right now?07:43
sledgesnot yet:)07:43
sledgeswe'll turn the clocks at the end of the month, so will belate the meeting too07:43
sledges8am UTC means that a meeting over an hours spills into Finnish lunchtime :/07:44
sledgeslet's keep it ticking for now07:44
Nico[m]Fair, you shouldn't miss lunch07:44
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 15th October 2020 at 7:00am UTC:  2020-10-15T07Z07:44
flypigSome of Greenland is on UTC, apparently :)07:45
sledgesthanks all, let's continue massagging 3.4.0 :))07:45
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Oct  1 07:45:11 2020 UTC.07:45
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 1st of October 2020 at 7:00am UTC"07:45
flypigThanks :)07:45
Nico[m]Thank you guys :307:45
ExTechOpsledges Remember to update the topic.07:45
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 15th of October 2020 at 7:00am UTC"07:46
sledgeswill create forum post too07:46
flypigLet's hope we get more questions for next meeting!07:47
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 15th of October 2020 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be created here:"08:03

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