Thursday, 2021-02-25

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sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 202108:00
sailbot_Meeting started Thu Feb 25 08:00:00 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
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sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please behave and re5tecpa.08:00
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot_08:01
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:01
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 2021)"08:01
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla08:01
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - Sailor@Jolla08:01
fridl#info fridlmue - community08:01
abranson#info Andrew Branson - Jolla08:01
Zyuc2G#info Zyuc2G community member08:02
rubdos[ma]#info Ruben De Smet - The Whisperfish guy@community08:02
jpetrell#info Joona Petrell - Sailor@Jolla08:02
Thaodan_#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla08:03
cartron#info cartron, community member08:03
karry#info Lukáš Karas - community member, developer08:04
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor@Jolla08:04
sledgesJolla 6:5 community08:05
sledgesyay Jolla wins this time :D08:06
sledges#topic Has Jolla/SailfishOS resolved the licensing issues with GPLv3? (5min -- asked by Zyuc2G)08:06
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Has Jolla/SailfishOS resolved the licensing issues with GPLv3? (5min -- asked by Zyuc2G) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 2021)"08:06
sledges#info <Zyuc2G> Recently SailfishOS appears to have added GPLv3 licensed applications including BASH 5, and grep 3.6. Has Jolla/SailfishOS resolved the licensing issues with the GPLv3?08:06
sledges#info <Jolla> If a Sailfish OS user decides so, they can install GPLv3 apps (such as gnu-bash) that Jolla packages merely for convenience (and for use on non-device infra, including SDK).08:06
sledges#info <Jolla> However such packages still cannot be distributed within the flashable images or pre-flashed devices.08:07
Zyuc2Ginteresting, thanks08:07
*** Thaodan_ is now known as Thaodan08:07
riniguscan  you package, just for convenience, newer qt and silica with it. so users, of they desire it, would be able to enable separate repo and install from there? :)08:10
sledgesone can get many more business customers without GPLv3, that's what's mainly keeping Jolla's lights on08:10
rinigus... assuming that gpl3 is keeping qt from us as well08:11
abransonrinigus: it'd be quite difficult to keep the system compatible with both 5.6 and the latest08:11
ThaodanI think fear is a major issue when it comes to Gplv308:12
rinigusabranson: that's correct. that hypothetical user would have to drop qt 5.6 then08:12
sledgesgnu-bash et al. is easy because they don't require separate repos and are actively used in infra that builds images and sdk08:12
Zyuc2GI'm just thinking aloud here, but one option is to have GPLv3 in the standard community distribution, and I assume charging your paying customers for a Qt proprietary license08:12
abransonThaodan: oh I don't know. it's a valid desire to prevent your users from messing with things in developer mode, especially for work devices.08:13
Zyuc2GJolla can still offer all the benefits of opensource, while avoiding GPLv3 for its customers08:13
sledgesit's other way round: we cannot get customers if we present a rootfs with GPLv308:14
Thaodanabranson: There is true however that is about devices the user does not own (the employer is the owner)08:14
abransonThaodan: that sounds feasible to us, but we are not lawyers08:15
ThaodanSo the user of the device would not be able to change something08:15
Thaodanimho the fsf or fsfe should help clear up the situation08:15
abransonI believe that's already been investigated in the past08:16
rinigusproblem with lawyers is that they always take cautions approach. if they don't know, they prefer to avoid it. unless you find more reputable lawyer who is sure that it is OK.08:16
Thaodanthey have lawyers and invented the tivo and non TiVo version of gpl308:16
sledgesgood thought; but we're twice overtime now, let's exhaust Qt aspects in the topic after next08:17
sledges#topic Plan of VoLTE (5min -- asked by bionade24)08:17
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Plan of VoLTE (5min -- asked by bionade24) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 2021)"08:18
sledges#info <bionade24> Lots of providers in countries all over the world are deactivating their 3G networks this year. Some providers in the USA even disable both 2G and 3G, breaking the call function on current SFOS versions.08:18
sledges#info <bionade24> What is the plan for VoLTE on Jolla, since you have to support it anyway once Rostelecom (which is a shareholder of Jolla) takes down der 2G and 3G network.08:18
sledges#info <Jolla> We have VoLTE on the roadmap, however have not committed to defined timescales at the moment.08:18
sledgesi believe there could be some potential synergies with other mobile GNU/Linux08:19
ApBBBin other words don't expect anything soon :)08:19
fridlIs there some development effort by Jolla done already or a repo where we could have a look and probably help?08:19
ThaodanApBBB: it is hard to work on something that is not public08:21
sledgesit would start with investigation phase08:21
jpetrellwe are studying VoLTE, but nothing to share now sorry08:21
Thaodane.i. has almost no information available08:21
ThaodanWe are open to work with others,  if you have worked on that contact us08:22
ApBBBThaodan public from jollas side or other?08:22
rinigusjust to get update on volte - sony aosp does support it, right?08:23
jpetrellVoLTE requires more from the OS side vs. 2G/3G calls handled a lot on behalf of the OS. and there doesn't seem to be much OSS available for VoLTE08:23
ThaodanApBBB: from any side, even aosp is not that public about it e.i. documentation08:24
fridlSo Jolla could found together with others e. g. a GSOC fore some students to set the corner stones?!08:24
Thaodanrinigus: aosp supports it but it has code that is written with non public information i think08:25
ApBBBassuming that jolla will write code for the VoLTE is this going to be able to be used by the ports or we will end up with a situation liek the fingerprint implementation08:26
rinigusThaodan: thanks! ApBBB good question. assuming that they wanted to work with other mobile linux os'es, maybe not. but good to get confirmed08:28
fridlWhat about creating some repo to collect information and docs and sources on VoLTE. Perhaps the community can help or other projects join?08:28
flypigfridl, if the community could help bring info together, I'm sure it would be a good contribution.08:29
sledgeswe need to move along, this is a big topic, so please raise further plans during next meeting08:30
sledges#topic Qt on SFOS moving forward (15min -- asked by KeeperoftheKeys)08:30
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Qt on SFOS moving forward (15min -- asked by KeeperoftheKeys) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 2021)"08:30
rinigusbut sounds like we need some repo to collect such info.08:30
sledges#info <KeeperoftheKeys> As mentioned in the topic we seem to be somewhere in limbo between Qt 5.2 and Qt 5.6 neither of which have been supported for the past year and a half, newer versions of Qt bring lots of features developers are jumping to use beyond the very important aspect of securiy patches.08:30
sledges#info <Jolla> Situation is similar to VoLTE, we have Qt upgrade on the roadmap, however no schedule to share at this time. We want the big Qt upgrade as much as you do.08:31
ApBBBwould moving the apps to flatpack solve the issue.08:33
ApBBBoh fuck i forgot about the wayland situation :/08:33
rinigusfrom the discussion above, the only similarity is a wish to have it. Qt is mainly licensing issue08:33
pasikflatpak requires newer Wayland, which requires newer QtWayland in lipstick.. so chicken and an egg :)08:33
sledgesApBBB: and wouldn't that still require silica rebase?08:34
ApBBBsledges probably08:34
pasikflatpak would be awesome to have though08:34
rinigusassuming that we will use silica08:34
sledges#info <Jolla> The comment about some Qt modules lagging the Qt 5.6 is good, 3rd party developer pain-points which we can already alleviate. We recently upgraded Qt Positioning to 5.4, and now are updating Qt Wayland to 5.6. Some modules are already GPLv3 in 5.6 level.08:35
Thaodanid favor rpm os tree then instead of flatpak08:35
pasikabout licenses.. newer Qt (5.9 and 5.12 for example) are LGPLv3 .. these discussions often mention GPLv3? Is LGPLv3 problematic for jolla?08:36
pasikand the current Qt 5.6 is LGPLv208:36
sledgesLGPLv3 isn't, but QtWayland is going for GPL only in 5.1508:36
ApBBBthe QT situation need to be resolved at some point soon. it keeps the OS behind. i was expecting news with the release of SFOS 4 but ....08:36
pasiksledges: ok08:37
rinigusApBBB: +108:37
pasikwell, at least Qt 5.12 would be an improvement already..08:37
jpetrellyes lGPLv3 is problematic, by saying GPL3 sometimes both lgpl3 and gpl3 is meant, sorry for the confusion08:37
sledgesone step at a time:) i.e. 5.6 as mentioned ^^08:37
Thaodanthe situation on qt isn't getting any better even on the desktop08:37
pasikjpetrell: what exactly is problematic? the fact that lgplv3 requires users to be able to rebuild and upgrade qt libs? eg. can't lockdown the device?08:38
rinigussledges: that stop is not good enough. it used to 5.9, now 5.6. not the direction it is expected to move08:38
Thaodanthey slow down releasing just slow enough to avoid the qt goes bsd clause08:39
ApBBBThaodan bsd???08:39
jpetrellpasik: yeah many industry customers see that as an issue08:40
rinigusThaodan: yes, but we are way behind desktop right now08:40
pasikjpetrell: ok, thanks08:40
jpetrellseems that the business model works for Qt well, e.g. many companies are willing to pay for commercial version to avoid opening their embedded stack08:41
fridlOk, and  something like deleting the encrypted user data Partition if Developermode is activated and Phone is in MDM-Mode is not an option for them? (Yeah, some warnings before that for sure)08:41
ThaodanApBBB: read the contract that Qt has setup with Kde e.V. = over 12 months no foss release,  kde gets a bsd licensed version of Qt08:41
Zyuc2GApBBB: Qt/KDE have an agreement that Qt needs to remain FOSS enough for KDE, or it will trigger a relicensing of Qt to BSD -- or something to that effect:
sledgesrinigus: given the predicament, anything with version increments (not decrements) is hoped to be welcomed, we understand how you feel, we feel the same..08:42
jpetrellbut like said Qt is on our roadmap, you shouldn't read it "never going to happen" even if we cannot share schedule now08:42
ThaodanZyuc2G: exactly that is what I.meant08:42
ApBBBha. i had no idea about that contract08:42
Thaodanit is a self suicide imho for Qt when they don't follow the rules08:43
* sledges 1min left08:44
ApBBBwith the whole situation i still thing that choosing Qt as a toolkit for SFOS was a bad idea :/08:45
flypigApBBB, you would have stuck with GTK?08:45
rinigusnot at a time. and maybe it is ok now as well.08:45
sledgeswell they followed MeeGo as opposed to Maemo (Nokia N9 was the reason I quit the job and joined Jolla:)08:46
sledgeslet's move it on:)08:46
sledges#topic How to change playback speed of media files without changing the pitch (10min -- asked by thigg)08:46
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "How to change playback speed of media files without changing the pitch (10min -- asked by thigg) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 2021)"08:46
sledges#info <thigg> This is a blocker of multiple apps (gpodder, talefish, podqast) for some while now and nobody found a usable solution (asides from using QT5.12 features). Are there plans to do something about that? Does anyone have a workaround in mind? As far as I understand this, it could be done by modifying the pulseaudio pipeline.08:47
sledges#info <Jolla> We don't have any plans to implement this at the moment, but should be possible to do by using Gstreamer directly(?)08:47
sledgesthigg is MIA, KeeperoftheKeys was mentioned as substitute:)08:49
sledges(the current dev of gPodder ;)08:49
KeeperoftheKeyssorry had a bunch of meetings at work08:49
sledgesno worries08:50
sledgesfor QML-only apps perhaps a suitable plugin could be developed?08:51
KeeperoftheKeyswhat do you mean?08:53
sledgesthere isn't a way for modifying a pipeline in QML-only apps08:54
sledgesabranson could shed more light on :)08:55
KeeperoftheKeysas far as I understand it's a feature in one of the newer Qt releases (don't remember by heart if its 5.6 or 5.12)08:55
abransonWe use gstreamer for media pipelines. Qt Multimedia wraps that up for Qt/QML apps.08:56
sledgeswe're currently discussing the workaround08:56
abransonIt's already possible to do seeking in gstreamer, which I guess is what Qt Multimedia does in later versions08:57
abransonSo it might be possible to build a plugin that wraps a seekable audio pipeline, and exposes it to QML08:59
abransonin your apps08:59
ThaodanI think if there is any workaround it is not harbor approved08:59
Thaodanunless you non qml code to the app08:59
flypigCould someone submit a patch to Qtmultimedia?
flypig(I mean, to patch our version)09:00
abransonif it's already done in a later version, isn't it a bit dodgy to backport the functionality09:01
flypigIf it's a "cleanroom" implementation then technically should be okay (IANAL etc.). Practically though, it may be hard to demonstrate.09:02
Thaodanabranson: it is but if the backport was done independent than it should be fine09:03
sledges#info (as a workaround ^)09:03
abransonflypig: that code you linked looks like it already does it?09:03
sledges5.6 ?09:04
abransonbranch said 5.609:04
flypigIt looks like this is the commit we're currently using:
abransonso should it already work?09:07
KeeperoftheKeysI'll try again, I haven't tried it for a while now.09:08
sledges#info with the currently used Qt Multimedia such functionality should already work09:10
abranson*could ;)09:10
KeeperoftheKeysGrabbing slightly back to the previous question - knowing exactly what versions we are on would be helpful to know to try something again, at the moment Qt is in limbo as far as I'm concerned09:10
sledges#info void QGstreamerPlayerSession::setPlaybackRate(qreal rate)09:10
sledgesshoulda woulda coulda:))09:11
KeeperoftheKeyswait we have been able to set playbackrate for ages09:12
KeeperoftheKeysthe issue is that it is without pitch correction09:12
KeeperoftheKeysthe newer qt version adds pitchcorrection09:12
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abransonok, that makes more sense09:13
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KeeperoftheKeyswithout pitch correction people start sounding like chipmunks09:13
flypigDid I get the wrong branch/commit?09:14
sledgesthigg mentioned Qt 5.12 to have pitch correction09:14
abransonsetPlaybackRate looks the same in 5.1509:14
sledgeslet's clarify in the next meeting09:16
sledges#topic General Discussion (15+ min)09:16
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "General Discussion (15+ min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 2021)"09:16
ApBBBjolla people. what is up with the recorder. why its not in the store yet 8)09:16
sledgeswe don't know where to put it :D09:17
ApBBBon top. its brand new and shiny09:17
KeeperoftheKeyspotential troll question - why are we being sent here when we can tag you guys in forum topics and also have wider community involvement there?09:18
sledgesApBBB: it's a system app, but we don't have a proper category to reflect everything about it09:18
ApBBBmost devs don't spend time in the forum and here you know you will get an answer09:19
KeeperoftheKeysI don't mind IRC from time to time, but I also don't understand why if there is a serious topic on the forum it can't be discussed by Jolla people on the Forum09:19
sledgeswe have limited time and only to review burning questions09:19
KeeperoftheKeysafter all the forum replaces the mail list >:-)09:19
sledgesworking like elon musk - timeboxing ;)09:20
ApBBB@jpetrell a question. have you put any thought or looked into speeding up the UI a bit. (transitions and stuff like the patch in patchmanager)09:21
ApBBBalso on the subject of patches. is there anyting that stops the extra search engines patch from being merged in the browser?09:24
ViGeApBBB: As a sailor who is not involved in UI development, but sitting in the same room with jpetrell and other UI guys, I can tell you: He and the entire UI team spend a *lot* of time trying to make the UI as smooth as possible.09:24
ApBBBViGe i am mostly refering to the transition speeds (ie from home to notification) which feels slow.09:27
abransonApBBB: which search engine patch is that?09:27
abransonthere's something along those lines happening in the browser repo right now if you browse the recent commits09:27
ApBBBother than that there are a few places that i see issues. ie the media player,09:28
sledges(or check the next l10n round strings when that's out;)09:28
ApBBBok. i'll wait for the translation strings09:28
ApBBBViGe or to explain  what i mean by "slow". it doesn't follow the gesture speed nicely. like its "top speed" is limited or something09:30
rubdos[ma]flypig: By any chance, did you have an opportunity to look into the WebView-captcha thingy?09:30
ApBBBit doesn't feel snappy in other words09:31
rubdos[ma](not that I have a lot of time today to look together, just informative)09:31
flypigrubdos[ma], thanks for flagging it up. I had a quick look, but nothing substantial to add yet I'm afraid.09:31
rubdos[ma]Ok, thanks for the feedback :-)09:32
ViGeApBBB: It doesn't feel slow to me. Perhaps my fingers are slower than yours... :)09:33
flypigHaha, no problem :) I'll try to take a proper look at it and then we should discuss futher.09:33
sledgesApBBB: i think SFOS has a certain flow rate that all animations move at uniformly (Top menu, App grid, transition between pages)09:33
fridlflypig: Nice Update on the Community News :-) Great, that you care about that!09:33
rubdos[ma]Yeh, the community newsletters are really nice :)09:34
flypigThanks fridl, rubdos[ma]. It's worth saying that I get to post it, but it's a group effort.09:34
dcalisteIndeed, thank you flypig for the community newsletters on the forum !09:34
sledgesencourage all the devs and peeps you know to contribute to the digest via comments:)09:34
flypigYes, that really makes things easier when we get the news given to us!09:35
sledgesand on this note, it's time to end!09:36
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)09:36
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th February 2021)"09:36
sledgesProposing Thursday 11th March at 8am UTC09:36
flypig11th March LGTM.09:37
sledges(Lithuanian Independence Day haha!)09:37
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 11th March 2021 at 8:00am UTC:  2021-03-11T08Z09:37
sledgesthanks y'all!09:37
sailbot_Meeting ended Thu Feb 25 09:37:39 2021 UTC.09:37
sailbot_ Minutes:
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*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 25th of February 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be read here:"09:37
flypigThanks sledges, all!09:37
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 25th of February 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:40
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 11th of March 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:40
*** chris is now known as Guest2078121:52

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