Thursday, 2021-03-25

ExTechOpOops. The site at has experienced a network protocol violation that cannot be repaired. The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because an error in the data transmission was detected.07:33
xylobol[m]hello friends07:35
ExTechOpClearing cookies helped with the "oops" above07:35
sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 202108:00
sailbot_Meeting started Thu Mar 25 08:00:03 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings'n'behave.08:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla08:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä -- community08:00
Thaodan#info Bjorn Bidar  -- Sailor at Jolla08:00
attah_work#info attah - community08:00
fridl#info fridlmue - community08:01
xylobol[m]#info Daniel Vinci -- community 🇺🇸08:01
santhoshm#info santhoshm -- Community08:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones -- sailor@jolla08:01
piggz#info Adam Pigg -- comunity porter08:01
lpr#info lpr - community08:01
cartron#info cartron - community member08:01
flypigAren't you supposed to be somewhere else piggz?08:01
ViGe_#info Ville Nummela - sailor@Jolla who almost missed the meeting08:02
piggzflypig: in about 20 mins ;)08:02
sledgesViGe_: i thought internal calendar reminder works ok for sailors ;)08:02
abranson#info Andrew Branson - Jolla dev08:02
Thaodanflypig: can't have two pigz? :D08:03
flypigpiggz, I'm glad you could make it then :)08:03
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:03
ViGe_sledges: So far it has worked well. For some reason it failed me this time!08:03
flypigThaodan, indeed :)08:03
piggzflypig: also nice surprise to get a comment on that MR already08:03
sledgesok good to know it works (most of times:))08:04
Thaodanflypig: is one of you spider man? (spider pig)08:04
flypigI'm going to have the spider pig tune in my head all day now :(08:05
ViGe_sledges: Now looking at the event in calendar, it says "No reminder" - no wonder it failed08:05
sledgeshmm will check:)08:05
attah_workThat's because the defaults are not configurable, just inherited08:05
abransonreminds me. mine's stuck on 1hr before, which is a bit irritating08:05
sledgesspecial request from attah_work - we're moving his topic up the agenda and will start with his topic about VoLTEq08:05
attah_workjaaay, will have to leave at :3008:06
flypigpiggz, I hadn't realised until you mentioned it, but hopefully that'll help with progress.08:06
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot_08:06
sledges#topic Involving the community in VoLTE (15 min -- asked by attah)08:06
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Involving the community in VoLTE (15 min -- asked by attah) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 2021)"08:06
sledges#info <attah> It has been suggested that VoLTE is ripe for external contributions.08:06
sledges#info <attah> In order to do so effectively; a good start would be to gather what is known about what is needed to get working. Both what is actually known to some detail, and areas of study that are known to have outstanding issues. (Registering for IMS? Would we need to distribute VoLTE profiles? Plumbing in new codecs? More QMI stuff? RIL? IRadio?)08:06
sledges#info <attah> I think that just having a rough outline of the problem domain would be much better at attracting contributions. Part of this would also be having some (pointers to) resources on how the telephony stack works.08:06
sledges#info <Jolla> We are actively studying VoLTE. It's still too early to involve more people in the efforts. High-level goals include making VoLTE compatible with as wide a range of devices as possible and possibly make SIP-related components reusable for regular SIP calls. Stay tuned. :)08:07
cartronSIP calls! :p08:07
attah_workHmm, ok. But i guess one main obstacle is RIL as a lower layer?08:07
attah_workPinephone has something, but they are using AT commands and QMI?08:08
fridlI googled around a lot after the last meeting. I summed up some of my findigs as I don't knew a better place here:
fridljust that no one needs to google that stuff again ;-)08:08
Thaodanattah_work: yes the modem does all the work and makes volte look like regular calling08:08
attah_workAnd i'm surprised to hear (userspace) SIP... i though that was all in the modem?08:09
xylobol[m]the implementation of VoLTE is somewhat dependent on the hardware08:09
attah_workBut for Hybris ports this means RIL generally?08:10
xylobol[m]I imagine it would be08:10
fridlas i understand it in Android it is not really part of RIL but a seperate module, as it is vendor specific:
rinigussledges: just when you get to the stage where help would be reasonable, don't hesitate to ask08:11
attah_workfridl: nice link08:11
piggzid be happy for someone with a volte provider to confirm if it works or not on the pinephone...i think i already set it to enabled08:11
flypigfridl, nice. sledges, would it be worth adding that link to the minutes?08:12
xylobol[m]the PinePhone recently was restocked, I've been thinking of buying one08:12
fridl@attah_work: as i said, this some otheres are here in addition:
xylobol[m]if I do I can follow up in the forum thread piggz08:12
xylobol[m]though I will note my provider (Mint) is somewhat funky08:12
attah_worki echo rinigus statement, don't hesitate to ask... i might not be a low-level os hacker, but i know a think or three about telecom if it should come in handy08:13
xylobol[m]and I'm in the US, I'm unaware if there could be major implementation differences over borders08:13
xylobol[m](GSM carrier)08:13
attah_worki think we have finally mostly aligned with you guys nowadays08:13
ThaodanFrom what I understood vendors want to tie it to the hardware despite it being independent08:14
xylobol[m]VoLTE from an implementation standpoint heavily depends on the hardware08:15
Thaodani think VoLTE is even for Sprint the same thing, gsm was always just as in the eu was it?08:15
xylobol[m]it's a sliding scale from "the OS does all of the work" to "just looks like regular phone calls"08:15
fridlAs I get it: There are a lot of time-sensitive handover and messaging operations which are clearly best handled as close to the HW as possible.08:15
xylobol[m]<Thaodan "i think VoLTE is even for Sprint"> not sure about this in particular, but aside from some band stuff, GSM is pretty much the same in the US and EU08:15
attah_workI can't imagine OS doing any significant work here... how would certifications work?08:15
sledgesrinigus: attah_work: I'll make sure relevant team members are aware of your wish to help, thanks!08:16
xylobol[m]<attah_work "I can't imagine OS doing any sig"> well, more correctly, how much stuff is exposed to the rest of the OS by whatever kernel driver is handling the modem08:17
rinigusI think it would make sense to ask for help on sfos-porters and sfos channels. as long as organizing helpers is not more work than doing it08:17
sledgesrinigus: which brings to 2nd points in this topic08:17
sledges#info <attah> the wiki already has this:08:17
sledges#info <attah> What format could be used for collaborating on this? I'm thinking a wiki would be more suited than a forum thread.08:17
fridlYeah, or a git repo08:18
rinigussounds like L5 was able to make volte calls in germany. again, by enabling with AT commands the modem functionality08:18
rinigusin US, it was said that it helped only partially - call was stopped when it started08:18
attah_workjust wanted to make sure we are roughly running in the same direction08:19
attah_workGiven enough eyeballs etc...08:19
ViGe_Perhaps a wiki post on the forum would work for collaboration, at least for the time being?08:20
attah_workSure, start easy08:21
attah_worksomething to set a common problem definition and dump interesting links08:21
fridlViGi_: I would prefere a git repo. Then we can also put files if some are found.08:21
fridlI mean ViGe_ for sure ;-)08:22
attah_workand the copyright fairy comes and eats your text and your files... :)08:22
sledges#info <attah_work> Pinephone has something [regarding VoLTE], but they are using AT commands and QMI?08:22
sledges#info <piggz> id be happy for someone with a volte provider to confirm if it works or not on the pinephone...i think i already set it to enabled08:22
sledgeslet's recap next time on this topic08:23
sledgesas the time's up08:23
sledges#topic Sailfish X availability in the US (5 min -- asked by xylobol[m])08:23
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Sailfish X availability in the US (5 min -- asked by xylobol[m]) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 2021)"08:23
sledges#info <xylobol[m]> Are there any plans to make Sailfish X available in the United States? If so, would it include things like group MMS?08:23
sledges#info <Jolla> We are looking into expanding to new countries, but unfortunately we don't have any definite plans yet.08:23
xylobol[m]about what I expected08:24
attah_workSoftware patents and not enough lawyers?08:24
xylobol[m]patents should not exist08:24
xylobol[m]"we own the right to implement this thought"08:24
xylobol[m]oh while we're here has anyone figured anything out wrt group mms08:25
xylobol[m]I need to figure out a way to hijack the messages while they're coming in08:25
xylobol[m]then manipulate sailfish's message db to create a "proper" group thread08:26
xylobol[m]and redirect the messages there08:26
ExTechOpCould someone fill me in on the field here, is there some implementation of "group MMS" with US operators that is somehow different from what is currently in Sailfish, or what's the deal here?08:27
abransonI think community guys have messed around with group conversations before - in the telegram telepathy plugin for one. might be good to have a look what was done there. afaik there's some UI lacking for that.08:27
Thaodanabranson Kaffeine did08:28
xylobol[m]<ExTechOp "Could someone fill me in on the "> so in the US we do something extremely cursed for group texts08:28
abransonthat's the one08:28
abransonThat group mms is possible everywhee iirc, but no-one outside of the US uses it very much08:28
Thaodanthere are some errors in the architecture of the telepathy client in s sfos that was one of the issues08:28
xylobol[m]when a message is sent in a group thread, your phone is actually sending an MMS containing multiple phone numbers in the metadata08:29
xylobol[m]all receiving phones pick up the pieces and slot messages in to the right threads08:29
sledgesa topic for next meeting? ;)08:29
ViGe_I believe no-one outside the US uses any kind of MMS anymore08:29
xylobol[m]it's all implemented over MMS08:29
ExTechOp xylobol That sounds pretty horrible, and I assume not standardized in any way?08:29
abransonmaybe because MMS messages are free in the US, but charged individually everywhere else, which discourages its use08:30
xylobol[m]mostly correct08:30
xylobol[m]it's "standardized" in that everyone agrees on a mostly consistent set of practices but there's not like a reference or anything08:30
Thaodansledges: probably everything related to telepathy is not that easy to talk about08:31
sledgesxylobol[m]: of you want to browse the group chat (unsure about mms) effort, check here (and blow off the cobwebs:)08:31
sledgeslet's move it ahead with the meeting:)08:31
sledges#topic OAuth support for Exchange/ActiveSync (5 min -- asked by cartron)08:32
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "OAuth support for Exchange/ActiveSync (5 min -- asked by cartron) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 2021)"08:32
sledges#info <cartron> We're lacking OAuth support for Exchange/ActiveSync accounts, making it impossible to get emails/calendars/addressbook. A lot of organisations do not allow the use of App passwords, and enforce a 2FA (such as Duo).08:32
sledges#info <Jolla> The need has been identified, but we don't yet have implementation schedule to share to you.08:32
cartronthat's sad - I have to use the Outlook Android app for emails/calendar, which I hate and does not integrate with the rest of SFOS :(08:33
xylobol[m]yeah this could end up being a problem for me08:33
xylobol[m]I personally run my life through O36508:33
xylobol[m]then my school and workplace put everything in it tolo08:34
xylobol[m] * then my school and workplace put everything in it too08:34
cartronwhen you say identified, does that mean a lot of users are asking for it? An ETA in 2021 still works, just FYI :)08:34
sledgesi think abranson was the one who re-identified it:)08:34
ThaodanIf anyone wants to use two factor with our exchange plugin this might help:
cartronThaodan: this only works if "App passwords" are allowed by the O365 organisation, which my company does not allow sadly08:35
cartronbut yes, could work for some ppl08:35
xylobol[m]this is how I currently log in to my personal and school O365 accounts08:35
xylobol[m]my workplace is going to crack down soon though08:36
cartronOK so I'll have to bug abranson from time to time then ^^ (just kidding)08:37
sledgesnot saying he'll be the one working thought ;p08:37
* abranson pulls a McNulty face08:37
sledgesok, let's move on08:38
sledges#topic Gstreamer, gst-droid video playback example code (20 min -- asked by Mister_Magister)08:38
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Gstreamer, gst-droid video playback example code (20 min -- asked by Mister_Magister) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 2021)"08:38
sledges#info <Mister_Magister> There was a small app created by someone that was using gstreamer directly with gstdroid to playback videos with output in QML. But some undocumented api about gst-droid changed and now its broken.08:38
sledges#info <Mister_Magister> If someone from Jolla could make small snippet/example code how to achieve it again, it would enable developers to make advanced video playback apps with subtitles and whatnot (bypass qtmultimedia limitations) so it would be super helpful for us.08:38
sledges#info <Jolla> We can have a look. Could you share more information about the app in question?08:39
flypigNo Mister_Magister present?08:41
sledgessounds like OP is not around; does anyone else know that app?08:41
sledgesin the meantime, side note: a new issue of sfos community news is out! (you can skim through until we get through to the general discussion:)08:44
sledgesthanks flypig for putting it together again!08:44
flypigThanks sledges for the ad :)08:44
flypigTheoretically, if we knew the app, would it be possible?08:44
Mister_Magisteroih hi08:44
Mister_Magisteri'm just a liiitle bit late08:45
flypigWe were wondering whether you could point us to the app you mention in your topic description.08:47
Mister_Magisterapi changed and its not working anymore :/08:48
Mister_Magisterand it's quite nice demo about how to use gst-droid directly08:49
Mister_Magistermostly the signals changed08:49
flypigIt'd be nice to have for sure. It might be worth adding as an issue to the github project as well, in case r0kk3rz can fix it.08:49
Mister_MagisterI don't think he's able as we were talking aobut it already iirc and its just his old project. it would be nice if jolla provided demo like that how to use gst-droid directly08:50
flypigOkay, helpful to have that clarified.08:51
Mister_Magister"frame-ready", signal for example is not available anymore iirc08:51
Mister_MagisterLike, since it's part of sfos, if there was example usage of it, it would enable devs to implement it in apps and do more advanced stuff beyond qtmultimedia which is severly limited08:53
flypigabranson, do you have a feeling on whether this would be easy/hard to fix?08:54
abransongst-droid can't really be officially supported in sfos, because it's not going to be available on native devices.08:54
abransonso whatever you do with it directly will only work on hybris devices08:55
Mister_Magistermakes sense08:55
abransoni'm not sure exactly why that's broken though. there's been some churn in gst-droid lately08:55
Mister_Magisterbut then, 99% of sfos ports use hybris right?08:55
Mister_Magisterand maybe we could make some if in case of native port08:56
abransonthe pinephone's looking good though! ;)08:56
Mister_Magisterso we could make if for it  or something. More native access to gpu accelerated playback would be super useful08:57
sledges2 more mins08:57
ThaodanI'm not that good with multimedia but idially should you not need to use gstdroid directly?08:57
Mister_Magisterabranson: api around signals changed, those that were connected don't exist anymore and stuff iirc08:57
Mister_MagisterThaodan: what do you mean08:57
abransoncould be because of the buffer recycling work. though that doesn't sound right to me.08:58
Mister_Magistergstreamer is often used directly. And without any qt updates, qt multimedia is not going anywhere fast08:58
ThaodanI mean if ideally you should not need to use gst-droid directly but just gstreamer08:58
Mister_MagisterThaodan: ideally…08:58
abransonqtmm could still be added to with things from gst beneath, as long as it's not backporting code from later upstream releases08:59
sledgestime's up, anything else left unsaid?08:59
Mister_Magistersledges: well nothing had been said but at least i brought some attention :P08:59
sledges#topic publish recent sources @ (1 min -- asked by lpr)09:00
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "publish recent sources @ (1 min -- asked by lpr) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 2021)"09:00
sledges#info <lpr> just a reminder (last published sources are SFOS- in Oct-2019)09:00
sledges#info <Jolla> Apologies, we haven't forgotten that and it's the work in progress. We should catch up with behind releases real soon.09:00
lprjust waiting for sailfish-
sledgesi see what you did there:) ok 1 minute's over09:01
sledges#topic General discussion (15 mins)09:02
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "General discussion (15 mins) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 2021)"09:02
sledgesparaphrasing automotive forums: "What was the last thing you've done to your Sailfish OS?" :))09:04
ExTechOpInteresting "bug" I dredged up:
Mister_Magistersledges: i was trying to have some real video playback but gstdroid changes stopped me09:04
Mister_Magister4K 60fps youtube playback. i had gstdroid-player and a dream09:05
Mister_Magisteri even overcame the MPD playback (if i use gstdroid directly i can play both video and audio stream at the same time synced)09:06
flypigExTechOp, interesting. What's the minimum phone number length? Three digits?09:06
Mister_Magisterwold just hates sfos having 1080p+ native youtube09:06
attah_worki remember playing around with gst-launch and being pointed to that example instead to get it working properly...09:07
Mister_Magisterabranson: plz make some demo or help fixing r0kk3rz app :<09:07
Mister_Magisterlacking working example is real bummer09:08
sledgesflypig: back in a day emergency numbers used to be 01 02 03 (04 for gas :)), but probably no longer09:08
ExTechOpflypig just tested that at least 4 digit strings are considered phone numbers09:09
flypigReally!? That must have been *really* back in the day.09:09
flypigExTechOp, I guess that's only happening in text emails though. HTML emails would have any link-embellishment added on the sender's end.09:10
ExTechOpIndeed, text-only. But 4 digits is OK, my phone is on a "virtual exchange" where I can dial a corporate 4-digit extension and it gets rerouted accordingly.09:11
Thaodanflypig: It shoud be 3 digits, 110 is emergency for police in some countries like Germany09:11
Thaodan112 is fire department09:11
ExTechOp112 is the general emergency number here in Finland, they'll reroute to fire/police/whatever09:11
sledgesflypig: actually 01 02 03 are still around in Eastern Europe :P will be nuked in october09:12
flypigWell, ExTechOp is correct, 4 is the minimum for Email identifying it as a phone number. Maybe it's not such a good idea to have emergency numbers clickable.09:12
ThaodanExTechOp: Good to know I was already thinking what it is just in case09:13
flypigMy feeling is that this should be easy to fix.09:14
flypigGiven that the menu already knows it's a phone number.09:14
ExTechOpAnyway, when I have a 54-digit number in a plain text email, it'd be nice to be able to copy-paste it intact since the system recognizes it as a "number" and doesn't really hint anywhere that it's being treated as a phone number, you have to "read between the lines" to figure that out09:15
attah_workpresumably plaintext email inherited this from sms?09:15
flypigIs there any reason why someone would want the tel: prefix?09:15
rinigusas it is general discussion: anyone from jolla to comment on
Thaodanflypig I about to mention the same09:16
ExTechOpflypig I assume the phone app expects that to be there to be able to "paste" it?09:16
riniguswould be great to have means to distinguish sfos versions and that it is sfos you package for09:16
flypigExTechOp, well, I'm sure the tel: prefix is needed for the link, but it could be stripped when passed to the clipboard. But maybe there's some reason not to?09:17
flypigIs there a reason to retain the mailto: prefixes on emails?09:17
Nico[m]<Thaodan "flypig: It shoud be 3 digits, 11"> Debatable, how often do you tap on an emergency number in your email? ;p09:17
ExTechOpIndeed, 3 digits is short enough to be remembered and called by hand.09:18
flypigNico[m], yes, totally agre :)09:18
ThaodanHey it is technically a phone number :D09:18
Nico[m]Well, technically correct, the best kind of incorrect :D09:19
ExTechOpIn email, it is possible to bring up the normal text selection tool over the recognized number string, but it is quit tricky compared to having the ready menu item.09:19
sledgesThaodan: was this something we once tried to achieve in sailfish-version?
Thaodansledges: yes09:20
Thaodan%sailfishos should be enough thou09:20
rinigusThaodan: should be, indeed09:21
ThaodanIdeally rpm provide macros that parse os-release09:21
Thaodan  /usr/lib/os-release09:22
sledges /etc/os-release09:23
riniguscan you add to some internal bug tracker? or can I add it somewhere09:23
rinigusso it would get fixed one day09:23
Thaodansledges: /etc/os-release is the deprecated variant09:24
ThaodanUsing /etc for files provided by the package manager is dirty09:24
Thaodansee man os-release09:25
sledgesso it will have to be ${_libdir}/os-release to be completely correct:)09:25
rinigusmaybe that's the trick - just move os-release around and figure out on the basis of its path?09:25
abransonwouldn't rpm-macros only be useful for the version that you're building with? wouldn't something at runtime be better?09:25
Thaodansledges: not exactly libdir since it will be /usr/lib even on aarch6409:25
Thaodanabranson: That is the point09:26
Thaodanfor runtime there is os-release09:26
rinigusabranson: that's to figure out which dependencies to use during build. as sfos different versions may change them09:26
sledgeswell, on the latest sfos it's still under /etc09:26
abransonah i see09:26
flypigExTechOp, here's the place where the text is copied, in case you or someone else fancies creating a PR to fix it:
Thaodansledges: Yeah we should catch up:D09:27
sledgestime's up for discussion, queue unanswered topics for the next time in two weeks!09:27
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)09:28
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th March 2021)"09:28
sledgesProposing Thursday 8th April at 8am UTC09:28
ExTechOpSeems logical.09:28
flypigLooks good.09:28
flypigDo the clocks change this weekend?09:29
ExTechOpIn Europe, yes, US is already on summer time.09:29
sledgesyes good point09:29
sledgeslet's push back to 7am UTC09:30
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 8th April 2021 at 7:00am UTC:  2021-04-08T07Z09:30
sledgesthanks all!09:31
sailbot_Meeting ended Thu Mar 25 09:31:12 2021 UTC.09:31
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 25th of March 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:31
flypigCheers! :)09:31
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 8th April 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:33
Mister_Magisterabranson: i'll be waiting >:309:34
*** vgtw_ is now known as vgtw15:05

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