Thursday, 2021-06-24

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sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th June 202107:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Jun 24 07:00:03 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
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sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and oftc.07:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th June 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla07:01
fridlmue#info fridlmue -- community07:01
kimmoli#info Kimmo Lindholm - community07:01
abr#info Andrew Branson - sailor07:01
chriadam#info Chris Adams - privateer at Jolla07:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla07:02
sledgesjolla 4:2 community (if anyone's following Euro2020:)07:03
sledges#topic recovery of broken Jolla1 (10 min -- asked by Dakon)07:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "recovery of broken Jolla1 (10 min -- asked by Dakon) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th June 2021)"07:05
chriadamwe might want to poke people in the old irc server in case they're lost07:06
sledgesjust done that:)07:06
sledges#info <Dakon> my J1 recently brokte07:06
ddobrevGood morning all.07:06
sledgesgreat minds..07:06
sledges#info <Dakon> Over USB the device shows up as modem after a while, recovery mode does not help. Jolla support said "ask community for help", but to my knowledge no public information is available on how to go on from this stage.07:06
sledges#info <Dakon> Given that the device is out of warranty and (commercially) useless, I would welcome if some more information on low level access to the device could be made available, e.g. how to access the low level bootloader, maybe dump the flash. Also things like "these are the wires you could connect $magic_device to read the low level flash" or something like that would be appreciated.07:06
sledges#info <Dakon> Target audience: experienced developers, i.e. people that know how to operate a terminal, dd and the like and how to operate a TTL serial converter07:06
sledges#info <Jolla> Jolla Phone support has been discontinued:07:07
sledges#info <Jolla> announced earlier in our blog07:07
sledges#info <Jolla> The recovery mode is provided to sort out such boot issues, sorry to hear that is also broken.07:07
sledgeshere's what I find after researching the web during my freetime:)07:08
sledgesif JTAG pins are identified on board (if more information becomes available, i'll reply that to the forum), you can then try:07:08
sledgesphotos of Jolla 1 SoC:07:08
chriadammaybe mkosola could provide some information about lower level details, but certainly it wouldn't be anything we could provide officially.07:08
sledgesif lsusb shows relevant vendor and product IDs, then (carefully) try:07:08
sledgesjolla 1 tech details:07:10
ddobrevFellows, please let me know when I should start.07:12
sledgesddobrev: in 2 mins07:13
sledges#info please read full logs for unofficial info07:14
flypigThat seems like a lot of info to go on, but I guess Dakon isn't here to comment further?07:14
sledgesyes, just waited for anyone else to chip in (if you pardon the pun x)07:15
sledges#topic Bluetooth support in Android (30 min -- asked by ddobrev)07:15
*** sailbot changes topic to "Bluetooth support in Android (30 min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th June 2021)"07:15
sledges#info <ddobrev> I keep searching for a solution to no avail so I'm forced to bring it up once more and this time I would like to have more definitive answers, please.07:15
sledges#info <Jolla> Unfortunately we don't have additional details to share. We are looking into the this, but don't have any schedule to announce on this.07:15
ddobrevsledges: I remember this reply from the logs as I was absent the last time for which I apologize.07:16
ddobrevHowever, I have some particular questions.07:16
sledgesthat's ok, good to have you here now07:16
ddobrevI'd like to know if there's anything we as a community can do.07:16
ddobrev1. As far as I know, you still use Dalvik Turbo (former Alien Dalvik) for simulation. Is this still the casE?07:17
ddobrev2. Under whatever your licensing terms for it are, do you have access to its source code and are you allowed to make modifications?07:18
ddobrev3. Is Dalvik Turbo by any chance open source without us knowing about it?07:19
sledgesi suggest you post such topics for the next meeting as they require more sailors' involvement07:20
chriadamI certainly have no idea.07:20
ddobrevErm... I did respect the condition for 3 days ahead.07:20
ddobrevAnyway: are you telling me nobody around here at present can answer any of these?07:21
sledgesddobrev: these 3 questions are new07:22
ddobrevI agree but they're no subject to discussion but rather just yes or no.07:22
sledgeswe prepare answers in 3 days, and the responsible person(s) is(are) not present here in order to work efficiently:)07:22
flypigddobrev, could you elaborate on why you'd like answers to these? I think it may help as presumably you're thinking about how Bluetooth could be integrated?07:23
sledges2. you can check licence of every installed package in SFOS with rpm -qi07:23
ddobrevOK, please give me a minute for 2. I already have the terminal on my phone.07:24
ddobrevWhat's the exact name of the Android support, please?07:25
sledgesLicense     : Proprietary07:25
ddobrevSo no open source, 3's answered.07:26
ddobrev1 too.07:26
ddobrevJust 2 remains.07:26
ddobrevThat is: can you (Jolla) access and modify it as necessary.07:27
abrThis topic is really not that simple, which is why it's difficult to answer at such short notice.07:28
fridlmueif ddobrev will ask that question again in the next meeting, with preperation, we could ad: If Jolla is allowed to make changes, would it in general be possible for someone from the community to get involved by an NDA (like already possible for other closed components AFAIK)07:29
flypigIs your question 2 the same as "Is Jolla able to do development on Android App Support"?07:29
ddobrevflypig: yes.07:30
ddobrevfridlmue: an excellent addition, thank you.07:30
flypigYeah, that's a really good question.07:31
ddobrevI'll add some more questions too next time, such as:07:31
ddobrevAssuming you can change the code: what are the technical obstacles to fully supporting Bluetooth?07:32
ddobrevAssuming you cannot: what are the possibilities of adding it to Anbox instead and replacing?07:32
sledgesfridlmue: currently we are not engaging in such NDA position practises unfortunately, will let you know when that changes07:33
sledges(as in, opening new cases)07:33
fridlmuesledges: good to know. And this was more a general question then a personal request to get involved (at least for the moment) ;-)07:34
sledgesi understood that07:34
sledgesit applies to ddobrev expectations too ^07:35
ddobrevBy the way, assuming there's some kind of access to the code, is there any chance you can have OMP help?07:35
ddobrevOr is this too better asked next time?07:35
flypigHas anyone tried Anbox on SF? With my very limited understanding, I would expect the challenges of adding BT support to Anbox to be no different to Android App Support.07:35
sledgesJolla partner discussions regarding closed source components are confidential, we list what Aurora contributions were to public components in every release notes07:36
ddobrevI see.07:36
ddobrevflypig: tried no but I've talked to them. They said some kind of bridge is required which is specific to the host.07:37
ddobrevThat is, it isn't once and for all but per platform.07:37
flypigOkay, that's interesting.07:37
ddobrevPresumably there are differences between desktop Linux which is their target and mobile Sailfish.07:38
ddobrevBut they did say it's technically possible.07:38
flypigI'm a little surprised to hear of the differences, but I couldn't say myself.07:38
flypigddobrev, just to clear up your initial questions, the answer to "Is Jolla able to do development on Android App Support" is "yes".07:38
ddobrevflypig: OK, so far so good.07:39
jsehvIs it there priority to develop on Android App Support? Probably not. I guess they will focus on native apps.07:39
*** ExTechOp1 is now known as ExTechOp07:39
ddobrevjsenv: we'd all rather have this but there are way too many apps to replace.07:40
ddobrevNot feasible in at least a decade, I would say.07:40
sledgeslast time we discussed smartwatches and Amazfish07:41
jsehvddobrev: agree, still hope they will add new apps so we don't need Android apps that much I hope07:41
flypigddobrev, no doubt it's a good general feature to have BT for Android App Support, but was there something particularly you were thinking about?07:41
ddobrevflypig: I'm not sure there's a point sharing my particular case as it's too indivudual. The point is that there are way too many such individual cases.07:42
flypigThat's not just a question about what native apps as replacements, but also about what Bluetooth features you make use of.07:42
ddobrevHowever, it's no secret: I bought myself a remote controlled 200 EUR Lego which I cannot drive with my Sailfish.07:42
chriadamdo you know which bt profile is used for communication?07:43
ddobrevI think it's LE, I'll send you some extra info now.07:43
ExTechOpIt's not like manufacturers want to let anyone else know how they do things. Clients get a ready app, they should be happy with it.07:44
chriadambtle gatt07:45
ddobrevThis is a JS library for writing applications to control Lego-s.07:45
ddobrevI know this one supports my model.07:46
flypigDid you have any success trying node-poweredup natively?07:46
ddobrevI haven't tried.07:46
ddobrevBut I'm sending it for another reason anyway.07:46
ddobrevThere's detailed documentation about protocols etc.07:47
ddobrevSo this is what I need from Bluetooth.07:47
flypigIt says libbluetooth-dev is a dependency, which it seems is a bluez wrapper, so it looks plausible.07:48
flypigI appreciate it may not be a solution to the problem you stated, but would be fun to try...07:48
sledgeswe're OT (over time ;), let's move to next topic, which is related, in case of still leftovers07:49
sledges#topic Dual-booting with Android, Xperia 10 dual SIM in particular (30 min -- asked by ddobrev)07:49
ddobrevI agree but I have my own open source so I don't see it happening.07:49
*** sailbot changes topic to "Dual-booting with Android, Xperia 10 dual SIM in particular (30 min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th June 2021)"07:49
flypigIn fact, maybe libbluetooth-dev is just bluez5-libs-devel?07:49
sledges#info <ddobrev> Getting Bluetooth support in Android would be possible with dual booting. Let's discuss the options, if any, for new Xperia devices such as 10 and forward.07:49
sledges#info <Jolla> Dual boot is an interesting option, but unfortunately not trivial to implement due to how Sailfish OS overwrites the userdata partition.07:49
ddobrevI've seen scattered instructions about MultiROM and Xperia Z.07:49
ddobrevWould they apply to Xperia 10 as well?07:50
sledgesnot the way SFOS does the partitioning and LVM07:50
sledgesmultirom is just a chroot within a rootfs07:50
sledgescommunity ports however are compatible with multirom, because they do not over-flash whole partitions07:51
sledgesthey do not have Android App Support (that's the official name BTW), but it's not to say it will stay this way ;)07:52
ddobrevSo there's a key difference in flashing between community ports and yours.07:52
jsehvsledges: what do you know that you're not telling us? what will change?07:52
ddobrevWhich would makes MultiROM fail.07:52
ddobrevIs this correct?07:52
sledgesif you build a community-port version of Sailfish (without AAS), there you could then attempt a dual boot via multirom07:52
sledgesjsehv: we said many times in previous meetings, there are some plans for Sailfish X for porters07:53
sledgeslet's hope it materialises07:53
ddobrevsledges: this does sound a little hopeful.07:53
ddobrevAny time frame?07:53
sledgesJolla is notorious not to give timeframes ;)07:54
jsehvddobrev: soon ;)07:54
sledgesddobrev: you would have to make a lot of changes to the above wiki instructions to make the build non-LVM, best consult porters07:54
ddobrevOK, let me put it another way: would we sooner have this or the support for Bluetooth in Dalvik Turbo?07:55
sledgesddobrev: this SFOS4porters news would only be beneficial to you if you are ready to use some other ready-ported device (for minimum effort)07:55
sledgescan't comment on that either as to create false expectations and then a disappointment07:56
ddobrevI see.07:56
ddobrevWhen either is done, you're going to announce it in the forums, right?07:56
abrThey'll be a big deal when they happen, don't worry :)07:56
sledgesso while waiting, your best bet to plan the free time is to create a x10ii LVM-less port and multirom it07:58
ddobrevOK, there's nothing else I can ask that I haven't been told should've been asked in advance.07:58
sledgeswell you pretty much got all the answers anyway:)07:58
ddobrevIndeed, most of them.07:59
sledgeswe had to distract some people from their desks but hey hum ;)07:59
ddobrevThank you.07:59
ddobrevHahaha, thanks, I appreciate it.07:59
jsehvWe all appreciate it :)07:59
ddobrevI would just encourage those same people to get in touch with the Anbox team over the issue.07:59
sledgesyes, but if we don't have enough time (which happens often), community could get in touch with them instead:)08:00
ddobrevsledges: :D :D :D someone's been checking my Jolla account. :D08:00
sledgesddobrev: i just noticed your nickname and then your ip address confirmed it (good thing to cloak it;)08:01
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sledgeslet's move to general disussion08:01
sledges(no sussing)08:01
ddobrevsledges: I tried actually but OFTC fails to connect with my VPN.08:01
sledges#topic General discussion (20 min)08:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th June 2021)"08:01
flypigddobrev, I just wanted to say: good luck with your LEGO vehicle. I'm already feeling a bit envious without knowing exactly what it is.08:02
ddobrevI'm sure there's a solution but I had no time.08:02
ddobrevThank you.08:02
ddobrevWant me to show?08:02
jsehvQuestion: any change community apps will be taken up into the official support of Jolla, like SeaPrint?08:02
flypigYes :)08:02
flypigSorry, that was a reply to ddobrev!08:02
jsehvIt creates awesome base functionality to the platform08:03
chriadamjsehv: what do you mean by "official support" ?08:03
jsehvThat an app as Seaprint is taken over by the Jolla team or that the functionality of it is integrated into the OS08:03
ddobrevflypig: ^08:04
flypigddobrev, okay, now with full knowledge I'm proper envious. Looks amazing.08:04
ddobrevI haven't built it yet knowing my Sailfish won't work with it. :(08:05
abrI think better would be to enable SeaPrint to be integrated better into the OS. I love SeaPrint.08:05
flypigddobrev, looks like it's quite a job to build :)08:05
ddobrev2000 parts.08:05
jsehvabr: Also fine to integrate it better, but that needs some help from the Jolla team in my view... else it may break things on new releases and you don't want that with a functionality like this.08:06
chriadamjsehv: I'm just a developer, and this question I think extends into legal / management territory.  but, my personal opinion: I'm personally not aware of such a case in the past, but that's not to say that it couldn't happen in future.  it's possible that such a thing might require a license agreement or something, but I don't know.08:07
flypigddobrev, really nice, thanks for sharing.08:07
abryeah I think we need to work on ways for third-party apps to integrate better. sandboxing should open up a lot of stuff that was previously forbidden.08:07
jsehvchriadam: understand that, but that is indeed the question. How can it be integrated better or does the team of Jolla need to take it over to prevent legal issues...08:08
chriadamjsehv: I think this needs to be a "proper question" rather than "AOB discussion" so that we can loop in appropriate management folks08:08
jsehvchriadam: sure, will put it into the next meeting in August :)08:08
jsehvWith translations finished for 4.2, hope it comes out soon and suprises us with new features ;)08:09
sledgesspeaking of which, maybe ddobrev could join Team BG :D
fridlmueI just want to say, that after using the 10 II for some weeks now, the 10 II port is really nice. The longer battery life time is great and sailfish feels good on the device. Beside some app hangs and known issues it is a joy to use.08:10
ddobrevsledges: I could. :)08:11
flypigfridlmue, that's really nice to hear.08:11
ddobrevdeloptes is quite active there, is he a Bulgarian too?08:11
sledgesddobrev: мерси08:12
jsehvAny more languages that are in desperate need for help? Just to ask for other communitry members.08:12
ExTechOpfridlmue What apps seem to hang?08:12
ExTechOp(I already have my 10 II, but haven't yet had time to install Sailfish on it)08:13
chriadamsledges: actually, that might be something which flypig could add to the newsletter thing.  which languages could use some contributors.08:13
sledgesjsehv: Danish, Romanian, and Turkish; would be awesome if you know/ping on forum any of the contributors that you see recent-ish timestamps in pootle:)08:13
fridlmueExTechOp: In general I see some browser hangs and sometime some complete system hickups. Most of the time it is only some seconds. Dont know if it is related to using MicroG?!08:13
ddobrevsledges: while still flattered this time I have to correct you a little. :) "Мерси", while used colloquially, is just a transliteration of the French word. The proper Bulgarian term is "благодаря".08:14
sledgeschriadam: yep, last time we even had a competition counting contribs., i'll do the same with this L10n round that's ended yesterday08:14
chriadamnice one08:14
abrfridlmue: i'm on microg and I've not seen that. maybe some other app?08:14
flypigThanks chriadam, sledges; I'm always looking for content :)08:15
jsehvsledges: Or Jolla gives the biggest translator for this stretch an Xperia 10 II or so...08:15
sledgesddobrev: ah i didn't know, and that ties in with the fact that аз не говорям по Български добре:)08:15
fridlmueabr: maybe. But at the moment I did not install to many apps besides. And I don't expect Threema to cause that?!08:15
ddobrevsledges: it's fine, more than my Finnish. :)08:16
ddobrevYou're a Finn, right?08:16
sledgesnope :D08:16
sledgesJolla employs internationally:)08:16
ddobrevI know but it has a Finnish core so I assumed.08:16
jsehvsledges: Any open positions?08:16
Nico[i]Btw, did anyone look into tracker crashing/erroring out, if you have any file without a modification date on a 64bit arch? I think I mentioned it before in #sailfishos, but it would be nice to have a working tracker again without modifying all my files :3 ( for context)08:16
ddobrevAlso because I like Finns.08:16
sledgesjsehv: looks like one new one:
Nico[i]I'm not sure what tracker version is currently on the device, so I'm not sure, if it still needs fixing for 4.208:17
piggzif 4.2 translations are done, it seems 4.2 will come out before 4.1 is working on obs :( </cough>08:17
chriadamNico[i]: I have asked pvuorela, who is looking into tracker things08:17
Nico[i]chriadam: awesome, thank you!08:18
fridlmueabr: did you get the Tick for something like "App can show up over other apps" in micro g settings? I'm not able to get that one checked.08:18
abrno, that's not supported and I don't think it's important08:18
fridlmueabr: ok. Good to know thats not the reason.08:18
chriadamNico[i]: he says "no, but the tracker update [to version 3] is happening soon" so I guess it will be fixed in that one08:19
jsehvsledges: HR Manager, hopefully to recruit new developers :)08:19
chriadamNico[i]: how do you create a file without a modification date?08:19
abrfridlmue: it works really well these days. I heard /e/ were contributing to it.08:19
chriadamjsehv: I like your optimism08:19
Nico[i]chriadam: Yeah, I think that should fix it, since the current master of traker should have fixed it, if I read the code correctly, but I have no idea, what gets deployed to devices, since the tags are confusing :D08:19
Nico[i]And no idea, how you create those, I just have them :D08:20
fridlmueabr: are you using defender as well? Could that couse app hangs?08:20
Nico[i]Probably some weird rsync stuff08:20
abrTracker 3 is a big change. lots of things to migrate08:20
abrfridlmue: no, i'm scared of that one08:20
ddobrevjsehv: also
jsehvchriadam: Two options in life: see it positive or see it negative (as what does neutral mean)... better choice in my view is the positive: more fun, nicer time all together :)08:20
chriadamjsehv: I completely agree ;-)08:21
Nico[i]abr: Well, in this case the only issue was that the date was initialized with -1 and as such the year had too many digits...08:21
abrfridlmue: but I think that could cause browser hangs when ad requests are sent into a black hole?08:21
Nico[i](on 64bit)08:21
abrNico[i]: imagine the poor future fish people when the date hits MAXINT6408:21
fridlmueabr: ok. so i could uninstall that one and try again some days. (But i hate to not have a add blocker on the browser ;-) )08:21
chriadamif a dns request for an ad thing is causing the main thread to stall, that seems like a ... problem.08:21
Nico[i]abr: Oh, I'm pessimistic enough, that I don't see that happening ;p08:22
abrchriadam: might be more what happens when the ad server is apparently localhost08:22
jsehvchriadam: Still think Jolla can ask a monthly fee from us (for who wants to pay, voluntaraly) and hire a dev for that to develop on apps an features...08:23
Nico[i]Anyway, I would love to test that with the new tracker, which is why I didn't rewrite my SD card :D08:23
sledgesabr: wouldn't by that time be at least MAXINT128? :)08:23
abrI want a nintendo 12808:23
Nico[i]abr: Glue 2 64s together, bam, 128!08:24
chriadamjsehv: some sort of "community-requested feature bounty" program?  interesting idea!08:24
abrNico[i]: AMD wants to know your location08:24
jsehvchriadam: yep :) we can then vote on features, most voted comes first08:24
jsehvchriadam: What's the harm for Jolla to even try it. They may be surprised how much comes in from it. Plus closer connection to the community08:25
sledgesalrighty then, sorry to buzzkill this jolly chinwag, but it's time to wrap it up for the summer holidays (in Finland it's mid-summer's day-off tomorrow, too!)08:26
jsehvchriadam: Estimate (just estimate): 50 people spend 10 euros/dollars/bitcoins/etc per month =  5k per month for a dev...08:26
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:26
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 24th June 2021)"08:26
ddobrevThis might be useful indeed. For example, I still use Google Maps because the dev of PureMaps is too busy to add everything necessary quickly.08:26
jsehvsledges: the months without snow, right? the only 3 or 4 you have ;)08:27
jsehvI'll put it into the next meeting too :)08:27
Nico[i]jsehv: One issue I could see is people paying 10 bucks for a bounty, and then it takes 500 to fix, so the community gets angry, jolla doesn't pick it up. Can probably be mitigated with proper communication though :308:27
chriadamjsehv: I've mentioned it to veskuh, hopefully he discusses it with upper management08:27
chriadamno promises that something will come of it, though08:27
sledgesand with some actual daylight too :) (i shouldn't throw stones, as i don't live in .fi 'glass house' though;)08:27
sledgesHoliday season kicking in in Finland08:28
sledgesProposing Thursday 5th August at 7am UTC08:28
jsehvchriadam: Thanks! chriadam and veskuh!08:28
Nico[i]The meetings are always so early I oversleep :D08:28
sledgessadly any later and Finns will be deprived of their lunch:}08:28
jsehvchriadam: Hope they keep the amount open to people, as some will pay more and some less, all ok in my view.08:28
ddobrevsledges: so you do live in Finland. I could've been further off. :)08:28
sledgesnope, not even:)08:29
Nico[i]sledges: Yeah, that can't happen! :D08:29
chriadamsledges: I'm willing to +1 ;-)  but I live in .au so my tz is a bit different to everyone else08:29 here, yes, it's veery earlyy morning here:))08:29
* Nico[i] sets another alarm clock for .fi08:29
flypigI'm gonna miss the meetings over the summer. 5th August looks good though.08:30
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 5th August 2021 at 7:00am UTC:  2021-08-05T07Z08:30
sledgesthanks all and happy Juhannus/Joninės/midsummer! and the middle summer month is official holiday month in .fi, so see y'all in August!08:30
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Jun 24 08:30:50 2021 UTC.08:30
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 24th June 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here: No meetings in July - the holiday!"08:30
chriadamthanks everyone08:31
flypigThanks all :) Happy Summers!08:31
ddobrevБлагодаря на всички.08:31
Nico[i]Happy holidays :308:31
fridlmuethanks. Dont forgett to release 4.2 before the holidays ;-P08:31
ddobrevIndeed, who knows, Bluetooth Android might somehow sneak in 4.2.08:32
karry_Thanks! Enjoy the summer.08:32

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