Thursday, 2021-10-21

*** kimmoli_ is now known as kimmoli03:45
SepeliusHi y'all, sailfish newbie here, just joined to check how these meetings work06:19
ExTechOpHello everyone!06:59
sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 202107:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Oct 21 07:00:04 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and teacher's pets.07:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 2021)"07:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla07:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä -- community07:00
thilo[m]#info thigg --- community dev07:01
ViGe#info Ville Nummela -- sailor@Jolla who almost forgot the meeting07:01
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community07:01
abr#info Andrew Branson, sailor@Jolla07:01
chriadam#info Chris Adams, privateer at Jolla07:02
lolek#info lolek - sailfish user07:02
cartron#info cartron - community07:02
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*** Guest3630 is now known as ncartron07:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla07:03
Cy8aer[m]#info cy8aer - community07:03
flypigGlad you could join us Sepelius.07:04
sledgesand onto the 1st Q!07:06
sledges#topic ui experience/accessibility (15 min -- asked by lolek)07:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "ui experience/accessibility (15 min -- asked by lolek) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 2021)"07:06
sledges#info <lolek> Sailfish need some minor improvements so one hand usage will be better. There are lot of locations in the sailfish that requires to use second hand while it would be just a small ui change to improve this. One has to realize that all lists, should start from the bottom to the top not the opposite way.07:06
sledges#info <lolek> For example the notes, the first note is located in the top left corner of the screen, impossible to reach there using one hand without fiddling with the phone. The same apply other places. There are of course other issues, some described by me here:07:06
sledges#info <Jolla> This is very true. Devices have grown bigger and displays taller, and what worked for Jolla 1 is often no longer the case e.g. Xperia 10 II. Pulley menu allows accessing page action easily, but accessing the most recent items on the top has become unnecessarily difficult.07:07
sledges#info <Jolla> Inverting sorting order of lists and grids is not trivial since people naturally read (=scan) information from top to bottom, and since we need to keep consistency with the other mobile operating systems (for many enterprise users Sailfish OS is not the only mobile device they use).07:07
sledges#info <Jolla> We want and need to evolve Sailfish UX further, but as mature product and supporting existing user base we need to be careful with the changes we apply, which need to be applied consistently across the interface and verified empirically that we are going in the right direction.07:07
lolekYes, true, the idea of reverting is by no mean bad and this can be skipped. But following others is also not a good idea since for example Android usability is really awfull. To contrast iOS done it a bit better bit still there are some obstacles with it07:08
ExTechOpOne could say a couple of things about the user interface consistency in any case, there are a few places where the "Jolla experience" reverts to something very android-like.07:08
abrI think it would be nice if launcher folders were pinned to the bottom of the screen instead of the top07:09
lolekThe first thing that comes to my mind is the browser. Just open it up without any cards. Then if you'd like to go to private mode you need to reach to the top, then you can use the pulley menu to open a new card of... the new card button is on the bottom this should be reorganized07:09
lolekhere's something more. A bit old article but showing the finger problem:
sledgesbrowser aspects you could contribute yourself (is opensource and Nico know how to build it:)07:10
lolekSo one has to realize that peoples has different hand sizes, and because of new devices being extra big it's difficult to sometimes even hold them with one hand07:10
lolekso sadly the software has to try at least to help those peoples07:11
sledgeshow about (boldly) displaying notifications in the middle of the screen? 8)07:13
lolekJolla: I know you're targeting enterprise users and that's great - at least hopefully this won't be another toy on the market :) But accessibility is quite important especially with those phones. I'd like to also remind about the odd way of handling the network selection as also the permission window. When I saw it first time I was quite surprised that it's so different from the system and that it doesn't use some swipes to07:13
ExTechOpHow difficult would it be to consistently make the menu position a configurable setting in the UI, that way people could configure it depending on their device and hand sizes?07:13
flypigAlso, as Joona mentioned in his presentation, the Browser UI is evolving right now. Not that the future changes will necessarily fix all of these issues, but just to bear in mind.07:14
lolekI'm quite surprised why I have to touch the [x] on the minimized app instead of just swiping it away?:)07:14
chriadamExTechOp: menu position?  which menus?  Do you refer to pulley menus or something else?  Pulley menus are problematic for any case where the main content is a listview or other flickable view, because you need to scroll to content bounds before menu activation is possible, for example.07:15
sledgesandroid (11) is doing some things/gestures better already, yet some things worse because they started as a buttoned UI. Jolla in mobile is like Tesla in EV world - started straight from gestures, so in a unique position, shouldn't let loose of that!07:16
chriadamalso, anywhere that layouts exist, attempting to dynamically change the position of something important in the layout, is likely to have considerable knock-on effects.07:16
ExTechOpchriadam Yes, I meant pulley menus.07:16
loleksledges: I have android 11 somwhere it's still a weird expirience for me at least, not to mention the hamburger menu in the top left corner of the screen - impossible to reach for me no matter how I'd hold the phone in right hand, welll ok maybe I should be left handed for android phone?07:17
jpetrellyeah these positioning options may seem simple, but often have quite big ramifications07:17
ExTechOpchriadam I realize I didn't quite get what element "launcher folders" was referring to07:18
sledgeslolek: hamburger menu is sadly on near every mobile version of any website07:18
flypigDidn't Android (maybe a Samsung variety) try to fix this some time ago by making their headers really huge? That worked quite well on a vertical-scrolling page.07:19
jpetrellyeah Samsung's UI handles this quite well07:19
loleksledges: true, same problem on every page :/ Sometimes I got a feeling that no one from the guys that make it is actually using it07:20
jpetrellthe most recent items in apps should be reachable one-handed, making header larger and/or allowing them dragging down is one solution07:20
lolekto compare the BlackBerry OS10 browser is imho the best one hand usage example07:20
sledges1min left07:20
sledgesneed more tim?:)07:20
lolekthe hamburger menu is on the bottom, the address bar on the bottom, everything is on the bottom, even the options that you got from hamburger menu, are ordered from top to bottom but are glued to the bottom not to the top07:21
jpetrellI really loved Blackberry 10. never understood why they made the overall UI style so dull (I guess because it is "serious corporate" phone), but design and implementation-wise it was great07:21
loleksledges: yeah give me a min please07:21
abrthe way the browser menu scrolls up from the bottom is a good pattern, especially as you have to flick it again to access the less used options07:22
lolekOne question to Jolla then, can we expecte some improvements in the new permission window as also the network selection to at least add there some shortcuts, and also think about adding gestures to easily close running aps without trying to reach the [x] icon there?07:22
thilo[m]abr: that could use a small indicator that there are options however07:23
thilo[m]more options07:23
piggzjpetrell: my bb10 is locked with one of them picturepassword/grids :D07:23
lolekjpetrell: one great feature of bbos10 browser is the quick scroll to bottom, you just top the top of the screen on the webpage titlebar ;)07:24
abryeah good point. funny that the browser has the best new one-handed UI in that, and the worst in the tab screen07:24
sledgeslolek: top-edge swipe closes the app if enabled in options (you probably know of)07:24
sledgesdoesn't help with one hand use though:)07:24
abrwe could definitely used a quick scroll-to-top, but not a titlebar :)07:24
thilo[m]sledges: are there any idea to replace the top edge swipe with something else?07:25
lolekwell the browser is quite odd on SFOS. The address bar when page loads is in the bottom - great, but when you want to open new page the address bar is in the top... o.O why it's not glued to the keyboard?07:25
sledgesthilo[m]: well android replaced it with swipe-up-to-close in the task switcher:)07:25
loleksledges: I think that following android is not so great idea especially considering their rules regarding the hamburger menu :/07:26
lolekhere's older article:
thilo[m]sledges: but there is no task switcher in sfos07:27
jpetrelllolek: when the keyboard is open you can also filter history and bookmarks with the input07:27
abrthe address bar is probably higher up because you don't need to tap it - it just takes the keyboard input. unless you're selecting/editing which is rarer07:27
sledgesthey are catching up with sfos, just look at how they replaced back button with gesture, nice idea, but so many sad corner cases07:27
abrmy biggest issue with it right now is that you have to load a page to get to any other option when you start it up.07:27
lolekjpetrell: need to dig into that but what's odd for me is that on the new tab the address bar is in the top of the phone - hard ot reach there07:27
lolekwell ok if I'd hold the phone in the middle yeah but when I tried I was having problems with finger - started to hurt so it's a no go07:28
sledgesthilo[m]: home screen, and that's what lolek said about 'x' buttons. to change how to close an active app in sfos clashes with other edges that gestures been established for way too long07:28
flypiglolek, but abr makes a good point: why do you need to touch the address bar on a new tab?07:28
jpetrellalso browser is going through iterative improvements, and a bit in-between the old and newer designs07:29
lolekI won't tell you know need to startup the phone07:29
rinigusaddress bar on top while entering address is fine - it feels natural that the items filtered by it are below the filter07:29
sledgeslolek: time to wrap up, let's compile next questions for next meeting aye?:)07:29
Thaodanflypig: or why can't we no longer close tabs with swipe :)07:29
jpetrellour focus is currently on other areas, but I hope we can come back to one-handed use and improving the overall navigation in the future (like a gesture to close apps on Home)07:29
rinigusThaodan: +107:30
sledgesand bring back the close button:)
lolekflypig: ok got it sometimes I didn't got the keyboard opened right away07:30
ThaodanWe have a gesture for closing apps on home: hold and pulley menu07:31
lolekThaodan: but it's cloasing them all not particular one07:31
flypiglolek, okay, I understand. In that case I can appreciate the need, but I think that shouldn't be necessary.07:31
sledgesit's time to move it move it07:31
lolekyeah nothing for me for now, thank you!07:31
flypigThaodan, I guess swipe-tab-close is taken by swiping page back.07:32
flypigBut I wasn't that always the case?07:32
Thaodanflypig: Not really if you can wipe to the side that does not has a swipe07:32
sledgesflypig: could work in other direction though07:32
sledges#info (discussions about app closing and browser improvements, the latter you can contribute yourselves;)07:33
sledges#topic VoLTE implementation details (15 min -- asked by ApB)07:33
*** sailbot changes topic to "VoLTE implementation details (15 min -- asked by ApB) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 2021)"07:33
Thaodanlolek: You can close only particular apps by pressing the x button07:33
sledges#info <ApB> As we've seen in the slides from Berlin VoLTE is planned for early 2022. Some questions arise and mainly how Jolla is going to approach the issue. Will the solution be open or closed? Which devices are going to be supported?07:33
sledges#info <Jolla> The cellular middleware used in Sailfish OS oFono is open source and developed openly, but there are device-specific parts of the implementation that we may not be able to share publicly. Xperia 10 II is the first device we are planning to support, but we are looking to expand to other newer devices.07:33
lolekThaodan: yes and this is something I don't understand, why there's no gesture for this instead I need to click on a small button07:34
ExTechOpAnother thing about the UI is that at least for me, it's not obvious why sometimes unlocking the device gives you the app you last used on top, and occasionally not (you get the tasks screen)?07:35
sledgesExTechOp: general discussion pls:)07:35
rinigusdoes it mean that this VoLTE implementation would have to be done for each device separately? any idea on how we could extend it to ports?07:35
Cy8aer[m]yeah, if VoLTE is not implemented for e.g. XA up this will not be very lasting. So hope for XA2 be a "newer device"07:37
rinigusany details on what can prevent public release? do you have special agreements with Sony in place?07:38
jpetrellExTechOp: sounds like a bug07:39
* sledges quoting Friends: "I got nuffin'!":))07:42
abrrinigus: I think it's a bit early to know tbh. I don't think we know how reusable pieces will be yet.07:42
rinigusabr: please correct me if I am wrong - I think sony AOSP does support volte. do you plan to base implementation on that?07:44
rinigus(but I must say I haven't tested it myself)07:44
abrI don't know enough about the ongoing work to say. It's like Tesla's lab in there. Lightning everywhere.07:46
sledges2more mins07:46
sledgesor lightning cables :P07:46
rinigusdoes anybody else know?07:46
sledgesa question for next meeting?07:47
riniguswho is on the meeting while volte discussion is on07:47
rinigussledges: we had a question now07:47
sledgeswe answer meeting questions since Monday internally in the company07:48
sledgesif you got follow-up ones we cannot answer during meeting, please relay to the next07:48
abrI think today's question has been answered as best we can right now07:48
rinigusok, understood07:49
sledgesand time's up for this one07:49
sledges#topic Aptoide is still/again pushing an untrusted client why is it still in Jolla store? (5 min -- asked by KeeperoftheKeys)07:49
*** sailbot changes topic to "Aptoide is still/again pushing an untrusted client why is it still in Jolla store? (5 min -- asked by KeeperoftheKeys) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 2021)"07:49
sledges#info <KeeperoftheKeys> The aptoide store client seems to push dangerous and compromised software, this is either the second time this happened or it never stopped happening since last time. As the saying goes "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", why is this clearly untrustworthy party still in the Jolla store endangering us?07:49
sledges#info <Jolla> Aptoide is a 3rd party marketplace in Jolla Store, but we have contacted Aptoide about these issues. We are no longer supporting the Sailfish-branded Aptoide and recently added up-to-date version of F-Droid, which provides privacy-respecting and open source apps for Android.07:50
ExTechOp(side note, why do I repeatedly get "The site at has experienced a network protocol violation that cannot be repaired." and have to reset cookies before it works again?)07:52
flypigExTechOp, just on that page, or any forum page?07:53
ExTechOpflypig generally, no such issues on other websites07:54
flypigStrange, I've never experienced that myself.07:54
abrme neither. quite a nasty sounding error.07:55
sledgeswfm (looks like we're transitioning into general discussion:p)07:55
ExTechOpThen when I remove 3 (rather huge, 2.7M) cookies from it works again07:55
sledges#topic General discussion (15 min)07:55
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (15 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 2021)"07:55
sledgesViGe: ^07:55
ViGeExTechOp: Which firefox version are you using?07:56
ExTechOpViGe 78.14.0esr (64-bit)07:56
ViGeExTechOp: Any chance you could upgrade to 81.0.2 or above?07:57
ExTechOpThat seems to be current on CentOS Linux release 7.9.2009 (Core)07:57
sledgesjpetrell: ExTechOp: regarding swipes from lockscreen, could the bug be a collateral of ?07:59
rinigusha, as we are in bugs. what about fixing order of ambiences selection? show starred first and the others later08:00
rinigusis that bug tracked? fix in pipeline08:00
ExTechOpViGe I'll leave that as unresolved for now, and get back once the OS browser updates08:00
dcalistethanks rinigus for raising this one, it's been here a long time now.08:01
sledgesis it in forum?08:01
rinigussomeone filed it in forum as well,08:01
jpetrellsledges: hard to say, but definitely could be. that particular issue should now be fixed on newer releases08:02
flypigI guess it's this one?
sledgesyes that one is fixed in 4.2.008:02
rinigusflypig: yes, that one. don't see that fixed in 4.208:02
sledges(my answer was to jpetrell)08:03
sledges#info ongoing regression:08:03
flypigNo, I think sledges was referring to something else. But we do have a bug recorded about this internally too.08:03
rinigusgreat! looking forward to the fix :)08:04
flypigSame here :)08:04
jpetrellcannot reproduce the ambience sorting issue. favorites are shown before ordinary ambiences, the list is sorted according use, the latest on top08:04
ExTechOpsledges Dunno. I had some strangeness with fingerprint unlocking just yesterday, even after rebooting it was not operational, and when I went to settings to check it out the fingerprints available the selection was empty.08:04
ExTechOpHowever, when I entered my security code to add new ones it complained about "insufficient memory" or some such, but suddenly the fingerprints were again there and unlocking started working.08:04
sledges#info <ExTechOp> sometimes unlocking the device gives you the app you last used on top, and occasionally not (you get the tasks screen) -- this might be an aftermath of fixing
dcalistejpetrell, not for me : the four SailfishOS 4 ambiences are always first (except the current).08:05
thilo[m]Is it a known issue that the bindings of the Mediaplayer in QML are a bit buggy? Signals are sent sometimes and sometimes not. This makes developing multimedia apps a bit of a pain08:05
thisismeHello! Edge swipes are noticeably more difficult with 4.2 as described here:   . Any ideas why?08:05
dcalistejpetrell, if you cannot reproduce, but I can, then, I'll try to give a look myself to the issue.08:06
rinigusjpetrell and dcaliste : for me , sfos 4 ambiences first, then the current one and then the other starred one08:06
jpetrelldcaliste: sorry actually now can reproduce. was only using the Sailfish OS 4 ambiences to test...08:06
sledgesdcaliste: jpetrell: wfm too, but maybe that's because we never changed favourited ones08:06
jpetrellouch, definitely needs fixing08:06
abrjpetrell: I can, both in the settings app and top menu. the elemental ambiences are always first.08:06
thilo[m]Regarding Qml, Multimedia: Was this issue noticed?
dcalistejpetrell, indeed. It's borring. At first I thought it was by design ;) to promote the new ambiences, so I convinced myself to accept this non-ideal situation !08:08
ExTechOpsledges Thanks!08:08
jpetrellsailfish 4 ambiences should be in the top on clean device, but then user's preferences should win08:08
sledgesnp, restart sailfish-fpd should do in most cases:)08:09
dcalisteGood that we agree on design :D08:09
ExTechOpsledges With the suggestion is that bluetooth may be causing this, I have my car auto-connect to the bt handsfree every time I go driving.08:10
sledgesExTechOp: nice, i'll check myself if there's correlation, thanks:)08:10
sledgesat first i thought it happens after low mem situations (when lkmd kicks in)08:10
ExTechOpIt could still be, I'm sure establishing the bt connection takes up some memory?08:11
sledgesthilo[m]: let's see if abr spots this, if not then this warrants a separate topic08:11
abrI have no idea sorry :)08:12
thilo[m]sledges: ty, i gonna post to the next meeting if this receives no attention in the forum08:12
sledgesjust mentioning because we spoke about playbackRate the other time abr:)08:12
sledgesjpetrell: looks like edge swipes regressed on all devices, not only on x10ii, did we change something globally?
abryeah that was fixed, but the bindings weren't touched afaik. must have already been broken08:12
thilo[m]I can help there analyzing it btw, Im dug deep into multimedia because of podqast right now, just ping me08:13
thilo[m]abr: yeah was already broken08:13
sledgesany final words from Belin meeting before we wrap up? :)08:14
thilo[m]sad i couldnt be there, was sick08:14
thilo[m]but sounds like you had a great time!08:14
sledges:[ hope you better now08:14
ExTechOpAnother thing is that using Situations (to switch the device to silent in the night etc) it seems to flake out after around a week, causing alarms/wakeups to be missed and/or be unacknowledgeable. I'm sure you understand it's a bit difficult to debug this.08:15
thilo[m]yeah, i was better that day, but you dont go out with the least symptoms in these times, especially not to such an event ;)08:15
sledgesExTechOp: could you try another app that does similar?08:16
thilo[m]but im in for the 20 years celebration :P08:16
ExTechOpsledges Suggestions on such an app for the Xperia 10II?08:16
ViGethilo[m]: Join us in Helsinki next week? :)08:19
thilo[m]thought about it but flying would kill my co2 bilance ;)08:20
ExTechOpViGe Are there invitations going around?08:20
thilo[m]but im in helsinki next year, do you take visitors? :)08:20
sledgesExTechOp: Situations flaking out cause built-in alarms to be missed because it fails to get the phone out of silent mode?08:20
sledgesand don't forget to read the SFOS paper, new issue just dropped this morning:)08:22
sledgesand on that bombshell, it's time to end!08:23
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:23
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 21th October 2021)"08:23
sledgesProposing Thursday 11th November at 8am UTC08:23
sledgessummer time over :((08:23
sledgesHope to finish that meeting at 2021-11-11 11:11:11 Finnish timezone ;)08:23
chriadamthanks everyone08:24
flypigYeah, thank you sledges+all.08:24
ExTechOpAnd yes, that time would work08:24
sledgeseleven eleven .. eleven it is08:24
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 11th November 2021 at 8:00am UTC:  2021-11-11T08Z08:24
sledgesthanks y'all!08:25
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Oct 21 08:25:02 2021 UTC.08:25
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 21st October 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:25
dcalisteThank you all.08:26
* Sepelius waves08:27
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 11th November 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:32

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