Thursday, 2021-12-09

ExTechOpHello everyone!07:58
sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 202107:59
sailbot_Meeting started Thu Dec  9 07:59:58 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbot_Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:59
ddobrevGood morning.08:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and don't stick gum under the desk.08:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:00
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot_08:00
sledgesKeto: looks like sailbot_ has become with a tail:)08:01
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla08:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä - community08:01
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla08:01
ThaodanAn imposter is in our mitts?08:02
ddobrev#info Dimitar Dobrev - Sailfish Community Member08:02
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - Sailor @ Jolla08:02
abr#info Andrew Branson - Sailor@Jolla08:02
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - sailor @ Jolla08:03
karry#info Lukáš Karas - community, developer08:04
ddobrevkarry: you're Czech, nice. :)08:05
sledges#topic Pure Maps - just one major feature remaining (5 min -- asked by ddobrev)08:05
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Pure Maps - just one major feature remaining (5 min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 2021)"08:05
sledges#info <ddobrev> Selection of routes is, in my opinion, the only remaining feature a fully functional mapping application needs that Pure Maps does not yet have. Let's discuss how Jolla can help turn it into its official built-in mapping application with @rinigus 's blessing.08:06
ddobrevHello everyone. Let me first apologize for my absence last time.08:06
ddobrevNow, there was a question what's changed since September so let me start with this.08:06
ddobrevrinigus added searching with HERE thus making the app able to find even the most obscure of locations.08:07
ddobrevSo I'd say Pure Maps is almost feature complete.08:08
ddobrevAlmost because of the missing selection of routes.08:08
ddobrevHowever, in my opinion rinigus's progress has been slow so I don't know when we'll see it if he's left on his own.08:09
ddobrevOn the other hand, I think the benefits to Jolla itself would be huge because it could boast a native mapping application.08:09
ddobrevSo let's think of a way to directly or indirectly help him.08:09
karry@ddobrev with routes selection, you mean selecting alternative routes before starting navigation?08:09
flypigPure Maps is indeed a great piece of software.08:10
ddobrevAll 2 or 3 or n routes drawn, and then one can select the best one and then start navigating.08:10
ddobrevI need to add an important note about karry's OSM Client: in my personal opinion a mapping application cannot be fully functional without working on-line as well and this is why Pure Maps is my choice to promote.08:12
ddobrevShould we all decide here, though, that OSM Client is more worthy, this is fine by me.08:12
ddobrevNow, about what I said about building Pure Maps in Jolla:08:13
ddobrevThere were reasonable objections related to users' keys.08:13
ddobrevAnd I agree, this is why I need to clarify: what I said was just the most prominent example of a gain to Jolla itself: having navigation out of the box.08:14
ddobrevBut if there are technical obstacles, there are more modest possible ways to start, such as promotion of the app in the forums by Jolla's employees.08:15
ddobrevThese are my thoughts in short.08:15
ddobrevReady for yours and questions.08:15
sledgesnow the v.short answer we prepared few days back08:16
sledges#info <Jolla> We agree with community this question was asked recently and the state still stays.08:16
sledgesbeen busy since, but looking to next year would Qt Location API bump be possible? cc jpetrell ViGe08:16
ViGeThat reminds me that we should update the list of recommended apps in Jolla Store some day, it's been a while since we have done that...08:17
karryIt would be nice to have some, at least minimalistic, map application as default in SFOS. It don't have to Pure Maps, but why not.08:18
ViGesledges: we have already bumped Qt Location API as high as we can before updating to a more recent Qt version.08:18
ddobrevkarry: thank you, exactly what I mean.08:18
ddobrevThis app, however, has to be feature complete.08:19
karryBut my biggest concert, also related with Qt Location API is: what plugin to use, what 3rd party services to use and how to pay for them...?08:19
ddobrevThis is why selection of routes is important.08:19
sledgesViGe: which brings us to the next after next question (qt update:) but more on that later08:21
karry@ddobrev: selection of routes is just "small" issue of Pure Maps. I would suggest, just open issue on Github and lets discuss. I am not sure if, and how, Here provide alternative routes via API.08:21
ddobrevkarry: there already is an issue, long-standing.08:21
ddobrevThe providers returns all routes, they are independent of the client. It's just that the client only displays one.08:22
sledgescould you link us to that gh issue pls?08:23
karryok, I was not aware of that... So some enough experienced and motivated developer needs to look on it...08:23
jpetrellold Sailfish Maps app used HERE plugin, technically getting it to display OpenStreetMaps is just a matter of changing Plugin { name: "here" } to "osm" though some features like night map tiles don't work08:24
jpetrellthough in practice your app needs to obtain key/subscription for some commercial open street maps data provider08:24
sledges#info <ViGe> That reminds me that we should update the list of recommended apps in Jolla Store some day, it's been a while since we have done that...08:25
sledges#info <ViGe> we have already bumped Qt Location API as high as we can before updating to a more recent Qt version08:25
sledges#info possibility to resurrect old Sailfish Maps, but keys/subscriptions will still be an issue to think through, regardless of a chosen app08:27
sledgescould we move ahead?:)08:27
karry@jpetrell with Qt Location API is possible to have compiled / distributed multiple plugins and select just one by application?08:27
ddobrevsledges: so there might be a way after all. :)08:27
sledgesif there's a will there a way:)08:28
ddobrevPrecisely. :)08:28
ddobrevWell, I'm done on the subject unless anybody has questions.08:28
sledgeskarry: while waiting for jpetrell answer, pls enlighten the uninformed what names of plugins are there08:30
ddobrevBy the way, sledges, I did send that issue. You might want to # info it.08:30
sledgesddobrev: it aleady is ;) (easter egg of sailbot)08:30
ddobrevNice. :)08:30
jpetrellkarry: harbour allows positioning but afaik not maps. but yeah the idea would be for app to be free to choose map provider and load specified plugin with their app secret / subscription08:31
karryin recent Qt there are these plugins: Esri, Here, Overlay (?), Mapbox GL, Mapbox, OpenStreetMap08:32
sledgesah, provider/tiling plugins, thanks, got it08:32
jpetrellit not that different to how you authenticate with other online services you integrate with your app08:32
sledgesmoving on, if any leftovers, please carry to gen. diss.:)08:33
sledges#topic Bluetooth support in Android (5 min -- asked by ddobrev)08:33
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Bluetooth support in Android (5 min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 2021)"08:33
sledges#info <ddobrev> It's been a few months since I last brought it up -- let's see what the progress is.08:33
sledges#info <Jolla> Sorry no update to give in Bluetooth area, focus has been on other topics during the autumn.08:33
ddobrevWell, some reported progress would be nice. Last time you did confirm you had both the code and authorisation to change the Android layer as necessary.08:34
ddobrevYou've also been preparing your Android App Support (is this the correct name?) for the desktop.08:35
ddobrevThere's no way you haven't given BT some consideration.08:35
ddobrevFor example: you might know the problems without having solved them all yet.08:36
ddobrevSo, what's the status?08:36
sledgesstatus: no ETA for release, as stated previously:)08:36
flypigI can't speak for the official status, but it's a super-tricky area.08:36
ddobrevOK, how closer is ETA compared to last time?08:36
sledgesETA=TBD (undefined)08:37
ddobrevflypig: super-tricky technically or legally?08:37
ddobrevWell, this is some relief. It could've been worse.08:37
NicoIf I overslept, should I still info myself? :D08:37
sledgesNico: but you still showed up in the class so:))08:38
ddobrevStill - can't you even tell if we'll have it a year from now?08:38
NicoCan't miss the sledgture08:39
sledgesddobrev: i personally don't know08:40
ddobrevDamn, I keep asking the tough questions. :D08:40
sledgesand knowing Jolla, we don't make promises to avoid recipients' disappointment08:40
sledgesprobably why you are one of the remaining few who ask about ETAs :)08:41
ddobrevOK, I can be content with you knowing nobody's forgotten about it, we keep waiting.08:41
ddobrevLet's move on.08:41
sledges#topic Old Qt in the SDK (10 min -- asked by ddobrev)08:41
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Old Qt in the SDK (10 min -- asked by ddobrev) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 2021)"08:41
sledges#info <ddobrev> Again an old (pun intended) topic but there are few new problems, rather the old ones stay unresolved. Qt 5.6 is unacceptably old for decent application development which dooms the Sailfish SDK to a slow death.08:41
sledges#info <Jolla> We have Qt upgrade on the roadmap, but no update to give on short term.08:41
ddobrevI hope it's shorter than Android BT.08:41
ddobrev5.6 is, I don't know, 5 years old?08:42
ddobrevBy the way, does having it on the roadmap to begin with mean you've overcome the legal obstacles with LGPL 3?08:42
sledgesddobrev: are you into journalism or something?:))08:43
sledgesif you don't get answer to your last question now (and likely you won't), please raise it during next meeting (Jan 2022)08:44
ddobrevNo, in fact, I despise the majority of contemporary journalists.08:44
sledgesnot many sailors are around here now due to busy times before xmas break08:44
sledges(one of them will be revealed at the end of general discussion;)08:44
ddobrevI meant that I researched the subject before suggesting it in the first place.08:45
ddobrevThe information I was able to obtain pointed out that LGPL 3 was the major blocker.08:45
ddobrevAnd I can understand why.08:45
sledgesmy question was purely on latching onto Jolla's answer wording:) no offence though!08:45
jpetrellQt upgrade is something that requires investment and careful co-ordination with our customers08:45
NicoYou packed up one sailor as a present and we get to unwrap them at the end of general discussion? :D08:45
ddobrevjpetrell: OK, then let me reuse my earlier question: is it a technical or a legal problem?08:46
jpetrellit should happen at some point, but the schedule is unclear08:46
sledgesNico: there is a present packaged up, though it's not a sailor nor RPM :)08:46
jpetrellddobrev: I can say it is more complicated than such either or08:47
ddobrevSo there's a legal part. This is what I feared.08:47
ddobrevWell, at least now I know it's possible since you work on it. There are opinions out there that you were going to be stuck with 5.6 forever.08:48
ddobrevWhich Qt do you target? 5.15, 6? Or is it that once you've resolved that legal trouble, you can use any version?08:50
NicoSo customers are not pushing for a newer Qt? Should we bribe them instead? :D08:50
sledges1min for this topic08:50
ViGebtw. Just to nitpick on details: The Sailfish SDK is not restricted to Qt 5.6. It the Sailfish OS itself. We actually use Qt 5.15.2 for the SDK ;)08:51
ddobrevViGe: might be but it's all the same in the end because the deployed app wouldn't work.08:51
jpetrellgood question. Qt 6.2 is the first Qt 6 release we could even remotely consider due to many mobile (location, sensors, etc.) modules only gaining Qt 6 support there08:52
ddobrevGreat news.08:52
Nicolocation is only in 6.3, iirc? Positioning was in 6.208:53
Thaodan5.15.2 is the safest target I think08:53
ddobrevAnd I meant 6 as an umbrella term, I have no particular affection for 6.0.08:53
jpetrell5.12 brings most performance benefits, 5.15 forces you to deal with many Qt6-motivated API deprecation warnings08:53
Thaodaneverything else is breaking changes08:53
ThaodanNote on the word warning08:53
ddobrevIn fact, 6.0 was officially unfinished and they gradually port the remaingin components in subsequent minor versions.08:53
NicoQt6 still doesn't look that ready to me still, I'll probably wait for at least 6.4 at this point .D08:53
ddobrevGiven Jolla's plans, it should be out by the time they're ready to upgrade.08:54
sledgeslet's move ahead peeps:)08:55
sledges#topic Status of VoLTE (5 min -- asked by keeperofthekeys)08:55
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Status of VoLTE (5 min -- asked by keeperofthekeys) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 2021)"08:55
sledges#info <keeperofthekeys> I just received a sunset message from my provider that all 2G and 3G networks in my country will be closed down (as per a govt decision) in the not too distant future and that I will need a phone supporting VoLTE to be able to continue making calls.08:55
sledges#info <keeperofthekeys> So what is the status of this feature that has been "coming soon" almost since the JP1? For me this now changed from "nice to have" to "mandatory".08:56
sledges#info <Jolla> VoLTE may have earlier appeared on some public roadmaps, but plans change. We have been aware of the importance of VoLTE, but this year has been really been the first time we have had a chance to commit proper resources to developing VoLTE support.08:56
jpetrellI am interested to hear what network and country? from all that are facing this issue08:56
sledges#info <Jolla> The initial target is to enable VoLTE for Sony Xperia 10 II and III. We have been working on brand new telephony adaptation with the first priority to get on the feature parity with the existing devices. The work has been progressing steadily and the target is still to get VoLTE out during early 2022.08:56
sledgesjpetrell: the topic's author is not around, but i'll follow-up in the forum08:56
Nicojpetrell: A lot of people commented about their provides plans here:
ddobrevI'm interested, though. There has been no talk of stopping non-VoLTE over here yet but I do think it's a matter of time.08:57
ddobrevAnd I use Xperia 10 I which you said would remaing 32-bit only.08:58
ddobrevSo shall we get VoLTE there?08:58
NicoI wonder, do the VoLTE plans include WoWIFI?08:58
jpetrellNico: thanks! I'll have a look08:58
jpetrellNico: Let's first get VoLTE out :)08:59
NicoWell, I don't know how different they are and if VoWIFI isn't like an intermediate step to VoLTE :D09:00
jpetrellthere may be some underlying SIP/IMS framework similarities that make VoWIFI easier to implement09:00
NicoBut yes, one at a time, take your time <309:01
sledgesspeaking of time, it's up for this one:)09:01
ddobrevFellows - what about Xperia 10 I/32-bit?09:02
sledgesthat will be known after initial target is reached as said above09:03
sledgesor close to its completion09:03
jpetrellyeah we don't really have visibility on what is feasible on older sony adaptations until we get the stack end-to-end working09:04
ddobrevI see.09:04
sledgesok if anything, let's spill over into general dissing [sic] :)09:05
sledges#topic General discussion (30 min)09:05
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "General discussion (30 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 2021)"09:05
ExTechOpAny schedule yet for SFOS for Sony Xperia 10III ?09:06
sledges says 2022 ;))09:06
ExTechOpLooking forward to it next December.09:06
NicoDo, I wanted to poke Jolla about looking at . More specifically, there have been a few PRs by the community, for which some feedback would be great:
sledgesExTechOp: i just booted it up with new sony binary v8 blobs :P09:07
Thaodanm2 for Xperia 1 II09:07
sledgesflypig: ^^09:07
sledges(re browser)09:08
flypigWe've seen the PRs for sure :) It's also great to have the input.09:08
NicoDo the v8 blobs bring cool stuff for the II?09:08
ThaodanNico: same as for Xperia 10 III09:08
flypigI think I can't give any specific feedback here though I'm afraid: that'll go on the PRs.09:08
Nicoflypig: Good to hear! Does that apply to who has some say for design stuff as well? :309:09
jpetrellSami earlier announced Xperia 10 III will come out early 202209:09
ExTechOpIs there a process to update those binary blobs on an existing Xperia 10 II installation, or would it need to be started from zero?09:09
NicoSince those are basically just bike shedding about how the browser should look :D09:09
sledgesExTechOp: there are no newer blobs for 10 II09:09
ExTechOpI misunderstood what Nico said meant V8 was now available also for 10 II09:10
flypigNico: yeah, if the code passes muster, they'll have to have design input too. jpetrell is already at-ed on them I think.09:11
Nicoflypig: Awesome, thanks a lot!09:11
abrExTechOp: should be fine just flashing that partition though? completely at your own risk of course :D09:11
abrthere's not been much benefit in taking that risk with any xperia so far I think09:13
NicoExTechOp: I didn't read the missing trailling 0 :p09:13
sledgesall adaptation needs to be rebuilt against new blobs i'm afraid09:13
sledgesif it contains ABI breakage09:13
sledgesNico: there was no missing trailing 0 ;)09:13
flypigJust to add about the browser thread: it has a load of good ideas, but it's quite busy and challenging to follow, so the PRs are easier to handle.09:13
Thaodanblob update requires newer vendor oss software which usually wants a kernel update09:14
Thaodanthat's also the reason we are stuck on so old kernels09:14
Nicosledges: But Xperia 1 II is not 10 II, what I read it as, is what I meant :D09:15
Nicoflypig: That's why I linked them, I just also linked the forum thread, because that's where a lot of the ideas came from09:15
rinigusddobrev: if you feel that progress with pure maps is slow, feel free to contribute. route selection will be tough task for beginner, start with some easier issues. that will take load off me and will increase the chance I can work on it sooner. right now, I am busy with chum, switching to maplibre gl native from mapbox gl native (same probably will be done for qt6.2+ on mapbox gl plugin) and so on09:16
rinigusroute selector is not yet my next project.09:16
NicoIt's great that the browser is open-source btw, lots of fun to hack on (when you can actually build it, because the apps repo is up to date)09:16
abrsony sometimes publish newer versions of the same blobs for a particular device and android release. i'd assumed that's what he was asking about09:16
abrpeople have used different versions of those in the past. i think for the xa2 we switched recommendation on which one to use?09:17
flypigNico, absolutely, understood, and it's good you linked it. I just wanted to explain why it's hard to participate in the thread!09:17
ddobrevrinigus: I meant that as a statement rather than a reproach.09:17
ddobrevI know you have your load.09:17
sledgesabr: that's why i said if it contains ABI/API breakage. xa2 minor hotfixes didn't, but most often they do09:17
rinigusddobrev: invitation to contribute is still open. it is open source software and it makes sense when more people work on it09:17
ddobrevUnfortunately, nothing's changed for me personally. My own open source is huge, constant work piling up, new bugs every day.09:18
Nicoddobrev: You shouldn't be writing bugs then!09:19
ddobrevNico: I've tried to stop but it's an addition. :Д09:19
sledgesso has anyone bought one got one free yet? ;)09:20
NicoNo, I actually don't need that many phones and my family doesn't either, already kitted most of them ;p09:20
sledgesonto ye friends then!09:21
NicoEh, they always look at me weird when I talk about Sailfish. I may or may not have done that too much in the past ;p09:21
sledgescan relate to that, but been trying to find cunning ways to make them interested:)09:22
rinigusddobrev: so far, code contributions by others are relatively small in pure maps and osm scout server. so, I end up assigning priorities as I see fit. that includes fixing it for pinephone on platforms we don't use and host of other projects. which is the only sane way of doing it09:22
sledgese.g.: one picked up a book about Snowden, but still uses Android phone(?!) :))09:22
NicoWell, if there is an official device, that is a smaller form factor... I'd probably buy a few licenses... nudge nudge09:23
Nicosledges: People work in mysterious ways. Recently got a long rant about Meta sent on Whatsapp q.q09:24
ddobrevThis has partially been my point about Pure Maps: I don't want gulag maps on my phone, I'm just forced.09:24
sledgesNico: sysadmins and other *nix cmdline aficionados with penchant for beautiful UXs is another choir to preach to besides the privacy folks:)09:27
NicoYeah, but you can combine those topics when talking about Saillfish :309:28
NicoIt has a terminal, beautiful UX and some privacy!09:28
sledgessure, just gauge whether the listener is still awake when you touch on a sfos feat that they couldn't care less about:)09:28
sledgesit's hard in a world where people become religious about the two mobile OSs out there:)09:29
sledgesand have apps that make too confortable, yet years ago they lived without them just fine:)09:29
sledgesanyway, i could go on, but...09:29
NicoHm, people seem to fall asleep, when I open my mouth, so I just ignored that part :D09:29
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)09:30
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 9th December 2021)"09:30
sledgesseasons greeting everyone!09:30
sledgesProposing Thursday 20th January at 8am UTC09:30
NicoThat is like 1.5 months away!09:30
sledgesyou won't even notice with the holiday season coming :P09:31
sledgesin the meantime, someone who's onto devember please resurrect ;)09:31
NicoSomeone should porke attah, they seem to be doing a great job with that usually09:32
NicoBut on the topic of the date, no comment from me, I don't plan more than 2 weeks ahead ;p09:32
sledgesit's 1.25 months, and minus sailors' holidays = ~3 weeks :P09:32
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 20th January 2021 at 8:00am UTC:  2022-02-20T08Z09:33
flypig20.01 does feel like a long way away! Apart from that, looks good :)09:33
NicoSailors get holidays?!? I heard they should be working on features in santa's factory instead!09:33
sledgesyes, we only get half-day day holiday in total, but since we are 60, we take turns ;P (j/k)09:34
sledgeswe might still shift onto odd/even weeks next year, but that will depend on how internal meetings will get resheduled09:34
abrthat's the problem. we lose all the elves we borrow from santa for the rest of the year.09:34
sledgesthanks all, and evangelise SFOS, now including your UK friends again!09:35
sailbot_Meeting ended Thu Dec  9 09:35:16 2021 UTC.09:35
sailbot_ Minutes:
sailbot_ Minutes (text):
sailbot_ Log:
*** sailbot_ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th December 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:35
flypigThanks sledges and all!09:35
NicoThanks for bearing with our "IS IT THERE YET?" questions for this year! :D09:35
ExTechOpThanks everyone!09:36
ddobrevThank you, everyone.09:36
NicoWe'll refrain from asking that in meetings until next year now!09:36
flypigHaha :)09:38
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 20th January 2022 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"10:12
*** Malinux- is now known as Malinux16:23

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