Thursday, 2021-11-25

ExTechOpGood morning, everyone!08:00
sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th November 202108:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Nov 25 08:00:09 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th November 2021)"08:00
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and always do homework:)08:01
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th November 2021)"08:01
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla08:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä -- community
ViGe#info Ville Nummela - Sailor @ Jolla08:01
karry#info Lukas Karas - community developer08:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones - Sailor @ Jolla08:01
meegouser#info meegouser - Sailfish Community Member08:01
abr#info Andrew Branson - sailor @ Jolla08:01
thilo[m]#info thigg, Community08:04
sledgesalrighty that's everyone in the class today then 8)08:06
sledges#topic Jollas thoughts on giving the option to have the community repo "easily" enabled on the phones. (20 min -- asked by ApB)08:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "Jollas thoughts on giving the option to have the community repo "easily" enabled on the phones. (20 min -- asked by ApB) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th November 2021)"08:06
sledges#info <ApB> The community repo includes all sorts of SW that gives the phone greater functionality than the currently available. Either because this SW is prohibited on the store or various other reasons.08:06
sledges#info <ApB> Given that the commercial customers can control what their users use on the phones and assuming there aren't any legal stuff involved i'd like to know how open jolla would be to the idea of having it on the phones and enabled by a switch in the settings somewhere.08:06
sledgeslooks like ApB overslept going to school this morning, so here goes the answer08:08
sledges#info <Jolla> Unfortunately we cannot include such settings in Sailfish OS releases, which are made for both our enterprise and community customers.08:08
sledges#info <Jolla> Users may include custom repositories to their devices if they wish, but we do not want to encourage use of them as installing software from external and community controlled sources has been a recurring reason for failures in the update process and a source for care requests.08:08
sledges#info <Jolla> Our releasing process needs to have a carefully maintained set of repositories and packages that we can predictably maintain, track and verify, both technically and legally.08:08
flypigWas any progress made integrating chum with OpenRepos/Storeman?
ExTechOpI have a strange feeling that this wasn't quite what was asked, but that the question was somehow misphrased?08:11
sledgesExTechOp: 3rd party (community) repo to be added to devices(?)08:12
sledgesas an optional switch08:12
ExTechOpYes, I did read it, and the given answer did answer what was asked, but I have a feeling they were trying to ask something more but were unable to phrase it.08:12
sledgeshmm needs more mindreading:)08:13
flypigCould you expand ExTechOp? What do you think they meant?08:13
abrwe've got 15 more mins to chew on it :)08:13
ExTechOpUm, that's just it, I'm not sure what they really were about.08:13
sledgeswhat would you like to achieve? ;)08:13
abrThere was a similar thing on the n900 wasn't there? enabling an 'extras' repo that was similar (might have even inspired) the current chum08:14
flypigThere were discussions in the past about an "experimental" stream in the Jolla Store. I read this a bit like that, but where chum is the experimental stream.08:14
abrThat brought up a lot of warning about how you might break your phone if you enabled it, but those sort of warning don't stop people needing help if their devices break08:15
abrThe impression I got about the experimental stream was a looser set of harbour rules that you'd have to explicitly allow to see those apps. But they'd still be in the store rather than an additional repo08:16
flypigRight; the store angle is a bit different, because the store needs screenshots, descriptions, etc. which aren't in the repo.08:16
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla08:17
ThaodanSorry a little late08:17
abrI think that's probably the furthest this sort of thing can go to be a built-in option on device08:17
thilo[m]if i think about apps that already use the mpris api, an additional stream in the store would be an improvement. in some cases the risk for the system shouldnt be high.08:18
thilo[m]maybe a different space for apps that use beta apis08:19
flypigI think when we discussed this in the past, it was concluded that people will have higher expectations of anything that goes in the store; and OpenRepos is already a good solution for experimental stuff.08:20
sledgesif there was an opt-in switch somewhere deep in the settings, it would be an extra step to enable it, so alternatively an extra step can just as well be installing openrepos client with chum enabled -> no jolla's involvment08:20
thilo[m]i was specifically thinking about apis that are already in development but not yet released. so a set of upcoming store restrictions. just an idea tho, do not see much benefit over openrepos08:22
ThaodanA store is a little different the community repo essentially allows apps to work normal packages being rebuild every time instead of blobs that are rebuild on demand. I think chum is kinda like commmunity contrib repo that was tried years ago.08:23
abrenabling the repo still means you need a UI to install the actual packages08:23
ThaodanChum could be a testbed for new dependencies and APIs to be tested before they are allowed as stable  apis.08:24
flypigThaodan, isn't that essentially what it already is (or at least, it can be used that way already)?08:25
ThaodanHarbour apps could be rebuild in a similar way avoiding issues when there are so version bumps.08:25
Thaodanflypig: Community contrib was more official.08:26
flypigAh, yeah, okay. So you mean with an official switch. Understood.08:26
sledgesand time's up:)08:27
ThaodanIf there a chum category in Jolla store with a disclamation that they repo is not maintained by Jolla but the apps are installed and build fine we can get the best of both. Less issues, more tests and apps for all.08:27
flypigI wonder if we answered ApB's question.. :/08:28
abrWell at least now he can refine it for next time08:28
flypigIndeed :)08:28
sledgesJolla store needs screenshots and descriptions in addition to just a chum repo08:28
sledgesand who is going to test next release updates with chum enabled?08:29
abreven storeman needs stuff like that08:29
Thaodansledges: They can be provided by appstream meta data just as harbour apps can08:29
sledgesthey can, currently they're not08:29
sledgesbut more important is to vet risks of breakages08:30
sledgeswhich was raised in Jolla's answer above08:30
thilo[m]if you ever feel the need to do beta tests for new apis, this would be an idea ;)08:30
thilo[m]/beta/public beta/08:31
flypigIt's an interesting idea, no doubt.08:31
sledgesrestricting chum (or sub-chum category) to only beta API apps is certainly a less risky constraint08:31
ViGeI would really like an openrepos/chum client which would just install the packages without adding any repositories. Well, I kind of have, it's called sailfish-browswer, but I think there could be a better one...08:31
sledgesViGe: how about updating them?08:31
flypigLike a UI/client for chum, where everything is in a single repo?08:32
Thaodansledges: a major issue was repos replacing system packages. If chum is in jolla store this is avoided since we control disabling chum before upgrading.08:32
ViGesledges: Yeah, updating is indeed one usecase which should be handled by the client. It's quite inconvenient to do that using the browser.08:32
flypigViGe, what is it that you dislike about adding the repos?08:33
ThaodanBrowser is hardly a way to install packages.08:33
sledgesThaodan: wasn't there any repo isolation already happening? cc abr08:33
sledgesor it has become "uninstall these offending packages, or else.." :)08:34
ViGeflypig: I dislike the fact that the repos contain packages which I don't want to install. And as long as the repos are enabled, it's always possible that those packages creep into my device by accident.08:34
abryeah in the store client upgrade, but I think version --dup doesn't do it08:34
flypigOkay, I see. If it were one-package-per-repo then that would be okay?08:34
ThaodanPersonally I would like closer collaboration, a second app doesn't really help.08:34
ViGeflypig: yeah, but one repo per package feels like a bit too much overhead08:35
abrisn't that how the store repo works? you only see packages you've enabled in the store client?08:35
flypigInteresting, I didn't know that.08:35
ThaodanViGe: well a repo can contain packages all it wants your fear is replacing of packages which doesn't happen with cum from what I see08:36
ThaodanIf someone is scared what is installed when a package is installed he should use a client that shows the packages being installed or replaced before the action is taken.08:37
ViGeabr: It sure looks like that. How is that implemented?08:37
abrViGe: I've absolutely no idea how any of the store backend works sorry :)08:38
abrbut that's just what i've observed08:39
ViGeabr: yeah, there's a lot of black magic going on in there :(08:39
thilo[m]i would welcome something between openrepos and official store in terms of restrictions. openrepos packages do not always feel very safe ;) a unified user experience would be bonus08:39
sledgeschum is built from oss08:39
sledgesand that's what the above link is about, to integrate chum to openrepos/storeman08:40
sledgeswe're nearly twice overtime, any other burning issues?;)08:40
sledgessilence means consent, spill out to gen. diss. if anything still crops up :)08:41
sledges#topic General discussion (30 min)08:41
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (30 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th November 2021)"08:41
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:42
dcalisteI'm sorry to be late.08:42
sledgesany reactions to the contributable ? :)08:42
meegousersledges: I asked you quite some time ago about Rostelecom's plans regarding 3G deactivation/sunset, are there news/feedback to be shared?08:43
thilo[m]just saw it yesterday, still to hop in08:43
sledges#link https://docs.sailfishos.org08:43
thilo[m]but good idea08:43
sledgesmeegouser: there have also been equivalent follow-up questions on VoLTE ;)08:43
dcalisteViGe, since you're already having specific customisation packages for parteners (or at least it was the case some years ago), like packages for Jala customisation… Could there be a community package that enable officially a community repo ? Repo that would be hosted officially by Jolla ?08:43
dcalistesledges: on public github is a _great_ thing \o/08:44
sledgesthanks indeed08:44
flypigI know I'm not totally unbiased, but I agree :)08:45
meegousersledges: questions yes, but no answers as far as i know..08:45
ViGedcaliste: I don't really see that happening :/08:45
sledgesmeegouser: it's in the works but nothing to announce08:45
dcalisteThat's really something about community inclusion. Very nice. I guess slowly people will add PRs. After all, disgesting all the repo will take a bit of time !08:45
meegousersledges: last time i was here, i also asked about the dreaded Tablet refunds, since CEO announced Jolla to have been profitable.. are those refunds finally cleared then?08:46
sledgessee a typo -> scroll to bottom -> Edit this page in GitHub -> click "edit" button -> fix -> PR -> ... -> profit :) (and all done via browser:)08:46
dcalisteViGe, that would though allow to put GPLv3 there and be sure that it does not propagate to business customers devices since on a totally different repo that is not available on their device.08:46
sledgesmeegouser: you would have to ask Jolla directly via support/care email08:47
ThaodanI like dcaliste's idea but I see the potential issues with them.08:47
thilo[m]just to tease: I was brought to you today by a native matrix client with persistent storage which will be released soon (tm). Off to work now, thanks everyone.08:47
flypigthilo[m], not one of the existing public clients?08:47
sledgesthilo[m]: woo!08:48
ThaodanWe already have ad least two I would say08:48
sledgeswith persistent storage?08:48
flypigI was testing Sailtrix over the weekend and it's improved massively.08:48
meegousersledges: well, it's not like I care about it personally, but announcing it publicly should be in Jolla's own interest, doesn't it? Especially since it had become some kind of running joke, in comments, tweets and such08:48
sledgesmeegouser: my answer stands:)08:49
thilo[m]im cheating a bit, its just a packaged hydrogen, but its working really nice08:49
NicoThe new docs page is really cool, btw. Exactly what I wanted for a while!08:49
flypigthilo[m], nice; When will you release it?08:49
meegousersledges: alright.08:50
thilo[m]weekend probably. depends on my mood to spend time at work ;)08:50
flypigOkay, good luck, look forward to seeing it :)08:51
sledges#info <thilo[m]> just to tease: I was brought to you today by a native matrix client with persistent storage which will be released soon (tm)08:51
dcalisteThaodan, for discussion matter, what do you see as issues in that scheme ?08:51
Thaodandcaliste: business people and lawyers08:53
dcalisteThaodan, ah I see :/08:53
sledgesanything that grinds your gears with 4.3.0 ?08:55
meegousersledges: has the legal matter of "transferral/selling of bought Sailfish X licenses" been discussed before (forbidding it, like it is right now, afaik, violating German law for sure, and European law probably too), or should I make it a point on the agenda for next time?08:55
NicoI still didn't have time to fix the browser UI to my liking and I seem to be sometimes losing connection for different reasons than before now, but apart from that 4.3.0 was pretty great :308:56
ThaodanI like to get community working closer and don't see any issue with that since its like putting those kind of patterns into community contrib with community customizations enabled. The offside is that there's no support but people will complain about issues. Increasing customization that comes now days from community side will create that any way, better structure will make those issues hit softer IMHO.08:57
sledgesmeegouser: please create a topic for next meeting, because IANAL:)08:59
meegouserianal sounds kinda dirty08:59
meegouserhad to look it up :)09:00
sledgessome typos made today also sounded off, but i kept it cool :P09:00
sledgesNico: how did your return the close tab on browser PR go?09:00
meegouser"cum" instead of chum made me chuckle a bit, not gonna lie09:00
sledgeswell, let's keep this chat clean please09:01
ThaodanNo PG13 community meetings :D09:01
Nicosledges: It got some mixed feedback and I think I am going to solve the issue differently, but I didn't have time for it yet. :D09:01
sledgesi'm glad it's not stalled!09:01
meegousersledges: I'm not the culprit here09:01
NicoWell, it is stalled, but... about 80% because of me :309:02
sledgesas in, it's not in a dead-end09:02
NicoThat I do not know yet09:02
NicoSome of the feedback sounded like I should just keep it as a personal patch, but it could also just have been a language issue :D09:03
sledgesthe number of <3 reactions to your PR certainly shouldn't leave it as personal patch:)09:04
sledgesi think browser went towards firefox-on-android UI, there's no immed. accessible close-tab button there too atm09:04
sledgesbut if you can still pull off de-modal-ising the pop-out menu, it'd be awesome09:04
NicoI think I am going to have a much better solution, that will make everyone happy and that builds on the improvements in 4.3 :309:05
flypigFor ref, we're talking about this?
sledges5 min left09:06
flypigI'm very curious to see your new solution Nico.09:07
NicoI just finished most releases of other software, so I have a bit more time now to look at sailfish stuff again :D09:07
Nico(Spent most of my time lately fighting with libzxing not parsing my covid QR codes...)09:08
flypigA special format of QR code?09:09
NicoNo, normal QR codes, libzxing just doesn't like mine and my dads for some reason09:09
ExTechOpSFOS for Xperia 10 III yet available?09:10
flypigStrange :/ libzxing is usually pretty good.09:10
sledgesExTechOp: you can help building it, it's in that stage now09:10
Nicozbar worked for me, after I did this:
ExTechOpsledges I'll need to get the hardware first :-/09:11
sledgesminor detail, but helps:)09:11
sledgestime to wrap up this one!09:11
NicoIt is pretty strange, it always tried to scan it as a barcode instead, after wriggling about for like 5 minutes. zbar just scans it immediately and correctly09:11
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)09:11
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 25th November 2021)"09:11
sledgesProposing Thursday 9th December at 8am UTC09:11
sledgeslast meeting of 202109:11
flypigNico, that is strange indeed, but nice that you tried zbar.09:12
sledgesas there won't be many sailors on the eve of xmas eve:)09:12
NicoMaybe I'll make a covid pass app out of it, sounds like it would be helpful for some people :D09:12
sledgesall aboard for the 9th Dec? ;)09:13
flypig9th LGTM :)09:13
ExTechOpWorks for me09:13
flypigNico, can you get the certs needed from a server for a covid pass app?09:13
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th December 2021 at 8:00am UTC:  2021-12-09T08Z09:13
sledgesthanks y'all!09:14
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Nov 25 09:14:08 2021 UTC.09:14
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 25th November 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:14
Nicoflypig: Probably not, but the QR code I need to show to people seems to just be the plain cert09:14
flypigThanks sledges, all!09:14
ThaodanI wonder which version of zxing was used.09:14
ThaodanZxing is widely used.09:14
flypigNico, I guess it just means you can't tell whether the QR code is valid or not. It'd be a great app to have though.09:14
ThaodanI think it should work fine.09:14
NicoThaodan: An older one, but I have the same issue with the Camera app09:14
NicoAnd when trying to use a webinterface for zxing09:15
ThaodanNico: Maybe try to analyze that could be a bug upstream09:15
NicoIt works fine with the examples in the cov pass repo though, which makes it a bit hard to provide debug data09:15
ExTechOpDid you try "Adolf Hitler's" covid pass?09:16
NicoThaodan: I probably should do that09:16
flypigNico, if you extract the data, regenerate the QR code, do you get the same result (i.e. difficulty scanning)?09:16
NicoExTechOp: That is actually a good idea, since that is signed properly09:16
sledgesbtw this probably needs a new post v4.0 :) to start planning the next Devember
ExTechOpTahodan There is a QR code floating around (I think signed by the French authority) which is a covid vaccination code for AH09:17
Nicoflypig: No, the QRCode generated by barwal and such looks visuably different, but works fine and has the same data and looks the same as the covpass one09:17
NicoSo I think there is some weird setting on it09:17
NicoDoes anyone have a good tool to create all the different variations of QR codes? I.e. the different error correction levels?09:18
flypigI guess there are different levels of checksum that could change the result.09:18
ThaodanTalking about sailfish apps: I have added translation support for Communi-Sailfish in case someone wants to use the app in their language09:19
NicoAh, I found a website that can generate the different levels, maybe I can generate a same looking one09:19
ThaodanI'm working on a new release for harbour09:20
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 9th December 2021 at 8:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"09:20
flypigNico, I wonder if they just use a very low error correction value.09:21
flypigThaodan, nice :) Please let me know when you do.09:21
NicoI think they actually use a very high level or so09:21
flypigCurious. You'd have thought that'd make it easier for zxing.09:22
NicoNope, all the different error correction levels look different09:22
NicoSo I really have no idea what they do to generate that code :D09:22
flypigAh, I mean, a higher error correction rate usually makes detection faster/easier.09:23
NicoYep. I think they are using maybe a buggy library or otherwise have some weirdness in their code, that makes some libs choke09:23
flypigAll very mysterious!09:26
* Nico starts decoding the QR code manually09:26
flypig:D Good luck... you'll need it :)09:26
NicoIt's not that hard, I'm just trying to figure out the version and format for now and Wikipedia has a guide for that :D09:27
flypigI thought you were converting the image to 0s and 1s manually ;)09:28
NicoNot yet at least! :D09:33
Crabsterthx #? and have a nice day09:41

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