Thursday, 2022-04-28

pherjungHello everybody!06:58
flypigGood morning :)07:00
flypigLet's get started then!07:00
flypig#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 202207:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Apr 28 07:00:41 2022 UTC. The chair is flypig. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"07:00
flypig#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
flypigI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and collect your grades at the end (the Sailors all got high-Cs).07:01
flypig(that's supposed to be a joke)07:01
flypig#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:01
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"07:01
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community07:01
pherjung#info pherjung, community07:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones, sailor @ jolla07:02
sebix[m]#Info Sebix, community07:03
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva, privateer07:03
abr#info Andrew Branson, slightly in hospital07:05
flypigOh, hope you're okay Andrew?07:05
flypigA score draw, 3:307:06
abrYeah lovely and bored thanks07:06
krnlyng#info Frajo Haider, developer at jolla07:06
flypigOkay, glad you're okay Andrew. Hopefully we can help your boredom for an hour or so.07:07
flypigLate goal leaves us 4:3 to the sailors.07:07
thilo[m]#info thigg, comunity dev, lurking07:07
thilo[m]No ;) 4:407:07
flypigGood shot :)07:07
flypigAlright, let's head to our first question.07:07
flypig#topic Poll users for Sailfish OS upgrade experience (10min -- asked by direc85)07:07
*** sailbot changes topic to "Poll users for Sailfish OS upgrade experience (10min -- asked by direc85) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"07:07
flypig#info <direc85> As users tend to write more about issues than successes about a Sailfish OS release in its release notes thread (Vanha Rauma is the prime example), the majority about posts tend to be negative.07:08
flypig#info <direc85> This can be off-putting to cautious users, as the thread seems to be mostly about issues.07:08
flypig#info <direc85> To combat this, and to help everyone get more realistic picture about a software update, I suggest that a standard poll is added to release notes to see how the update went.07:08
flypig#info <direc85> It should probably separate the early access phase and the final release, so two polls could possibly be held side by side.07:08
flypig#info <direc85> As an example, Manjaro Linux, which I use, has this practice.07:08
flypig#info <direc85> I like to pop in and leave a vote after an update, and from my own experience, it works well for both the community and the devs.07:08
flypigUnfortunately direc85 couldn't make it to the meeting, but we have an answer at least.07:09
flypig#info <Jolla> Thank you for this suggestion. There's plenty to agree with in what you write, and since we didn't want to delay until the meeting today, we went ahead and implemented your great idea.07:09
flypig#info <Jolla> The current poll shows the following results: 79% no issues; 16% small issues; 5% serious issues. It's not a direct comparison, since the wording is different, but these results aren't dissimilar to those in the Manjaro poll (88%, 5%, 7%).07:09
flypig#info <Jolla> We'll continue to post a similar poll for future releases. We'd be interested to hear about your thoughts on the poll results.07:09
flypig#info <Jolla> It raises also the question about whether there are other great ideas like this that would be worth considering.07:10
flypigThat's the answer. Did everyone here vote already?07:10
pherjungYes :)07:10
sebix[m]btw, openSUSE Tumbleweed (Rolling Release Distro) has something very similar:
pherjungJust curious, some here have various phone. Is there any possibility to vote various time?07:11
flypig#info <sebix[m]> openSUSE Tumbleweed (Rolling Release Distro) has something very similar07:11
sebix[m]flypig: No, didn't upgrade because of existing issues.07:12
flypigThat's a lot of info behind that link.07:12
flypigpherjung, I'm pretty certain the forum only allows one vote per account I'm afraid.07:12
flypigsebix[m], which issues, if you don't mind me asking?07:13
sebix[m]flypig: They have a faster release cycle and heavier testing of course. But it's a similar objective though.07:13
ExTechOp(I voted, adding to "no issues")07:13
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla07:14
Nico#info Nico, late community member07:14
ThaodanSorry guys I'm late07:14
sebix[m]flypig: Unfortunately I need to leave the meeting in one minute, sorry :(07:14
flypigNice to see you both.07:14
flypigsebix[m], no worries, glad you could make it briefly!07:14
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community07:14
dcaliste(sorry to be late)07:14
flypigGlad you're here dcaliste.07:15
flypigOkay, well, I think we answered direc85's question, so I suggest we move on and have more time for later questions.07:16
NicoHm, how many moderators are there on the forum? Could some community members help out there, since Jolla said they need to cut down community interaction, maybe some trusted community members could help with tagging bug reports and organizing threads? (re other suggestions)07:16
flypigI think that's something for pherjung to comment on.07:17
Nico(Also I expect more people to vote next time, none who had a good upgrade is probably going back to that thread)07:17
pherjungNico: In that case, we are 3 (nephros, thilo[m] and me). We collect all data and provide them to flypig.07:18
ThaodanI think we talked about something like this last time? It clearly sounds like an dejavu for me.07:18
flypigNico, I agree. I was impressed that so many votes came in so quickly to be honest, given it was added later.07:18
NicoWell, if you think you don't need any help, that's good too, but I'll let you thin about it :D07:18
pherjungWell, if you want to join us you're welcome.07:18
pherjungbut, let's go further. We can discuss about it later07:19
ThaodanWhat we need IMHO is more hightlighting of different types of user rolles in the forum, e.g. Jolla staff vs. trusted users.07:19
flypigWe have a bug roundup topic on the agenda today. Perhaps we could discuss this further there.07:19
NicoHm, sure, why not. I wasn't as active recently as I am finishing up a thesis but I could do some things here and there07:19
flypigThaodan, I agree with that too.07:19
NicoThaodan, true07:19
flypigNico, we'd love to have your input.07:19
flypigLet's move on to the next question.07:20
flypig#topic Toggle-able option to add digits row in keyboards (5 min -- asked by remote)07:20
*** sailbot changes topic to "Toggle-able option to add digits row in keyboards (5 min -- asked by remote) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"07:20
flypig#info <remote> Last 3 phones are 21:9, so having digits row is convenient.07:20
NicoMaybe if there is no easy way to add mod/jolla status to profiles, we could at least put it in a thread or so, where people can look it up07:20
flypig#info <remote> 3d party solutions (not for every language) exist, manual patching (tedious, resets every update) exists.07:20
flypig#info <remote> But I don't see why this can't be implemented in stock.07:20
flypigHere's the answer from Jolla.07:21
flypig#info <Jolla> Thanks for this suggestion. We've created a task on our Bugzilla related to this so we can discuss it further internally. We're considering ways to improve the keyboard right now and will add this to the mix.07:21
flypig#info <Jolla> However, we don't have any immediate plans to implement it for an upcoming release.07:21
flypig#info <Jolla> Would you be able to share links to the 3rd party solutions that you mention? We'd be interested generally in opinions from the community about how best to improve the keyboard.07:21
flypigI don't think remote was able to make it today.07:22
ThaodanI think having a concrete solution and a quick path is a different thing.07:22
NicoPossibly ?07:22
pherjungRelated to the the keyboard, there is a patch from leszek increasing the bar space. Very useful.07:23
ExTechOpA keyboard improvement would also be creating a fix for what seems to bug a fair amount of people (including me): the narrow space bar
flypigThanks for that Nico07:23
ThaodanI would think it is possible to apply smaller fixes like increasing the spacebar side but larger works could take time.07:23
flypigpherjung, do you have a link for that?07:23
Thaodanflypig:it is included in the openrepos link07:24
flypigThaodan, agreed, the spacebar fix could be a small, quite quick change. Unfortunately anything with the keyboard requires some work, because there are many of them.07:24
flypigThaodan, perfect, thanks (regarding the link)07:24
Thaodanflypig: They spacebar is the same in all keyboards (I tried to do similar stuff years ago)07:24
NicoI am actually somewhat happy with the keyboard. Not to say that it can't be improved, more that I would wish the finger term keyboard was as good :D07:25
pherjungflypig: looking for it. Name is Wide Spacebar or SailfishOS 407:25
flypigSo, is the general view here that the spacebar should be wider, and the comma/fullstop keys thinner?07:25
ThaodanI think so07:25
dcalisteThere is also the repo from ichthyosaurus :
flypigNico, would you like Fingerterm to use the standard keyboard?07:25
pherjungflypig: here is it
dcalisteIt has a lot a various keyboard patches that could be worth give a look to.07:26
Nicoflypig: Not quite, having some of the command keys is useful, but the fingerterm keyboard is so different and the keys are so small, that they are hard to hit :307:26
NicoMade sense on small screens, now it is a bit of a bother07:26
Thaodanthe fingerterm keyboard could scale but that is another issue.07:27
flypigNico, the nice thing about Fingerterm is that it's full open, so if you have ideas, they can be fixed with a PR.07:27
NicoYep... once I have free time again I can look at that :D07:27
Nico(I'm not good with UI stuff though)07:27
flypigNo worries Nico (although I'm sure you are), and of course, just because you don't create a PR, doesn't mean you can't ask for an improvement.07:28
flypigAlright, remote only asked for 5 mins on this topic, so we should move on. Many thanks for the useful links everyone.07:28
flypig#topic Bug roundup (15 mins -- asked by pherjung)07:29
*** sailbot changes topic to "Bug roundup (15 mins -- asked by pherjung) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"07:29
flypig#info <Jolla> The Community Bug Coordination team have been herding bugs beautifully this week.07:29
NicoI was partially also asking if anyone else wanted to see improvements to the fingerterm keyboard too :307:29
flypig#info <Jolla> The idea here is for us to go through the bugs they've highlighted to try to get movement on them.07:29
flypigNico, I would be one :)07:30
flypigMany thanks for all of your work in shepherding bugs this week. I've been through the list you provided. Let me summarise where things are at, and I'd appreciate your opinions on some of them.07:30
flypig#info 1. The following have been tagged as tracked or fixed:07:30
flypig#info 2. I've asked internally about the following in case they're already fixed. Depending on the result, I'll either mark them as tracked or fixed.07:30
flypig#info 3. I've posted a reply on this topic to try to get more info, and tagged the related bug report as tracked.07:31
flypig#info 4. Asked internally and Thaodan, who worked on the change, has replied to this bug:07:31
flypig#info 5. It looks like this issue here is due to lack of VoLTE. I've posted a reply, but I think there's no appropriate way to flag the bug.07:31
flypig#info 6. I've requested the OP to mark this bug as "solved". I'm not sure it makes sense to flag it as either tracked, or fixed though. What do you think?07:31
flypig#info 7. I'm not sure what the right approach is for this bug. It seems to be related to failed updates, which are notoriously hard to debug.07:31
flypigThat's all of 'em. I'd appreciate your thoughts on how to tackle the more complex ones here.07:31
flypigAnd sorry for the text dump. I'm not sure how this process should best work; we should refine it!07:32
NicoI have to say, seeing such a dump of bug triaging feels weirdly encouraging :D07:32
flypigOkay, that's a good sign then :) pherjung thilo[m] and nephros put in a lot of work.07:33
NicoThanks, guys!07:33
flypigAny thoughts on 5, 6 or 7 especially?07:34
dcalisteMany thanks to the bug shepherds.07:35
pherjungIn any case, as long as there is a comment with the latest information it's fine for me07:35
flypigWill they cause you problems if they're not tagged pherjung?07:36
thilo[m]Tagged as tracked you mean?07:37
flypigWell, at the moment the best outcome is to get things tagged as "tracked" or "fixed" I think. But not all of these could be.07:38
pherjungI think not. As long as it is noted somewhere, it's okay07:38
flypigOkay, that's good to hear.07:38
pherjungAnd currently it's noted in a framalist. So I know this bug report has already been seen07:39
thilo[m]Can we tag them as seen?07:39
flypigWould that be useful? I'm happy to do that if it would be useful.07:39
pherjungA tag is in any case better07:39
thilo[m]Because then we can filter them07:39
NicoAbout 7 it might be nice to have an accepted solution of "run this to complete the upgrade" on that thread for others to find and a general bug to improve upate reliability to prevent such things from happening in the future?07:40
dcalisteMaybe add a new 'pending' tag for them ?07:40
pherjungWhat about: tracked-by-community? Or something similar07:40
pherjungoh, pending is much better07:40
flypig7. is thilo[m]'s bug I think?07:41
thilo[m]And either they are no bug reports or they will be tracked or declined07:41
flypigOkay, so we add a "pending" tag? That works for me.07:41
Thaodanflypig: pending sounds good07:41
pherjungGreat :)07:41
flypig#action flypig to request a "pending" tag be added.07:42
flypig#info Bugs which have been considered, but are neither tracked nor fixed, will get a pending tag.07:42
ThaodanPending would help us look into bugs.07:42
thilo[m]Sorry my phone doesnt like more than one app open right now apperantly. Cant look07:43
flypigExcellent. Good progress :)07:43
NicoHow are you triaging incoming reports btw? Would broadly categorizing them into "calls", "apps", "upgrade process" or similar help you to get the right people look at it or is it the same person creating bug reports anyway?07:43
pherjungflypig: could you than update your thread ?07:43
thilo[m]Bug #7 was resolved for me after a while just left it open for others07:44
flypigpherjung, thanks for suggesting that, I would have missed it. Once the tag exists I'll update the post.07:44
flypigthilo[m], could you do as Nico suggests and create an accepted solution? Would that work there?07:44
thilo[m]Ill take a look07:45
flypigGreat, thank you.07:45
flypigNico, concerning categorising reports, could you elaborate?07:45
NicoFunny that the "how to tag bug reports" is not stickied to the top of the bug reports :D07:45
Nicoflypig: I usually use tags to broadly categorize areas something falls in when triaging my bugs, so that I can quickly look at everything not fixed with a voip label to check, if I fixed anything else too by accident.07:46
NicoNot sure if that is useful on the forum, but it could maybe make it easier for Jolla peeps to pick out bugs related to the area they are working on07:47
NicoOr it would just be useless overhead :D07:47
flypigWe do add tags when they get transferred to our internal bugzilla.07:47
NicoYeah, it is probably just unneeded duplication then?07:48
flypigI think it's possible it's easiest for us to categorise them, since many of the categories are quite technical (e.g. related to the relevant component). That may not always be obvious to bug reporters.07:48
pherjungAs long the bug report has a good description and can be reproduced, it's not necessary. I think.07:49
pherjungSome user (I'm the first) wouldn't categorize correctly07:49
NicoMhm, makes sense :307:49
flypigIt's a nice idea Nico. I'd suggest we revisit it in the future, see how things go in the meantime.07:50
flypigWe're hitting time on this topic. Should we do the same again at the next meeting?07:50
ThaodanUsually the more tags the better as long as it is not the wrong tags, however in Jolla together it also worked so I think we will make it work.07:50
pherjungflypig: yes :)07:50
pherjungOh, just asking. Is it okay for you 10 bug reports + all fixed one?07:50
pherjungLike I did for this community meeting?07:51
flypig#info Nico suggested to consider adding tags to categorise bugs to the forum.07:51
flypigpherjung, I think it worked well, so fine by me, yes.07:51
NicoI think the bug reporting section was really usefull and should definitely be something somewhat regular :307:51
flypigOkay, that's a great vote of confidence. Thanks Nico.07:51
flypigLet's move on.07:52
flypig#topic Status of VoLTE (10-15min -- asked by Solrac)07:52
*** sailbot changes topic to "Status of VoLTE (10-15min -- asked by Solrac) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"07:52
flypig#info <Solrac> There have been some concerns with the implementation of VoLTE, specially now that it is starting to become mandatory in some countries (most notably in the US).07:52
flypig#info <Solrac> Unfortunately, it has already been stated that older devices will not recieve VoLTE support, which brings up another concern that I'd like to ask about as well.07:52
flypig#info <Solrac> What might be the state of VoLTE at the moment? Might there be a roadmap?07:52
flypig#info <Solrac> Is it planned to arrive with 4.5, or would it be an update for 4.4, or would it be a simple package update?07:52
flypig#info <Solrac> And would be only implemented for officially supported devices, or will it be possible to implement it in community builds (for porting to other devices)07:52
flypigHere's our reply.07:52
flypig#info <Jolla> Thank you for the question. This topic was last discussed in the community meeting on 9th December, so this is a good opportunity to revisit it.07:53
flypig#info <Jolla> As we stated there "The initial target is to enable VoLTE for Sony Xperia 10 II and III".07:53
flypig#info <Jolla> On the Vanha Rauma blog post we detailed that development of the new telephony adaptation needed for VoLTE is progressing.07:53
flypig#info <Jolla> There we also posted a video of the VoLTE prototype demonstrating simultaneous data and calls, which is definitely worth a look if you've not seen it already.07:53
flypig#info <Jolla> However, beyond the fact that we still plan to bring VoLTE support this year, we don't have a public roadmap for it.07:53
flypig#info <Jolla> Concerning community builds, this will very much depend on the specifics of the devices in question. Rest assured, as soon as we have more to say publicly, we will make it known loudly.07:53
flypigSolrac wasn't sure if they'd be able to make it today.07:54
flypigBut if anyone else would like to comment, please do feel free.07:54
NicoWill all the VoLTE stuff be open-source for people to take a stab at it to port it elsewhere? Probably was mentioned somewhere already at some point, but...07:55
ThaodanSony devices usually have an easier time adopting those things however VoLTE has to work on the device in AOSP first  usually.07:56
flypigThaodan, that's in relation to VoLTE on community adaptations?07:56
Thaodanflypig: yes07:56
flypigNico, I think that's an unknown at this point (maybe some other sailor with better info can say?)07:58
ExTechOpCeterum censeo, talking about Sony Xperia 10 III, is there yet a timeline on when SFOS would be available?07:58
NicoOki, I think it would be encouraging to some if that was known, because then they could easily say they can port it to their own devices without needing to play with a black box :307:59
flypigIt's a bit early for Latin for me :)07:59
flypigNico, understood. Would you like the comment added to the minutes?08:00
NicoWell, I would appreciate a statement from Jolla about that probably, if adding it to the minutes helps with that, then I would like that too :308:01
flypigExTechOp, nothing public yet, I don't think. Maybe someone else can correct me.08:01
flypig#info <Nico> Will all the VoLTE stuff be open-source for people to take a stab at it to port it elsewhere?  I think it would be encouraging to some if that was known, because then they could easily say they can port it to their own devices without needing to play with a black box.08:02
Nicoty <308:02
flypigWe reached time on this topic, so let's go to General Discussion.08:05
flypig#topic General discussion (20 min)08:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"08:05
thilo[m]Would also be interesting to know if it is possible to make a community port for older sony devices. Its a bit sad i cant get this on my xa208:05
pherjungNico: would you like to join the Bug Coordination Group?08:06
NicoHm, sure, why not, but I will probably not be active for the next 2 weeks, but after that I could probably contribute properly :308:07
sleepnicely[m]<ExTechOp> "Ceterum censeo, talking about..." <- I am also curious when it is going to be ready since I only have the Xperia 10 III 🥺08:07
thilo[m]We're having lots of fun there ;)08:07
NicoForum account:
thilo[m]And all the bugs08:07
pherjungNico: what's your telegram's Nickname?08:07
NicoOh boy08:08
thilo[m]Note that this is public here08:08
NicoThat is a good question, I only every use my telegram bridge nowadays08:08
flypigsleepnicely[m], we're working to get it to you as soon as we can, rest assured. We want you to be able to fully use your 10 III.08:09
Nicopherjung, I'll dm you?08:09
pherjungNico: ok08:09
thilo[m]Anyone knows if someone tried a ccommunity port of a newer android version to the XA2? (although it would be quite pointless regarding android apps)08:10
thilo[m]I heard the 10III is buggy on android, are you struggeling with that as well?08:10
NicoAnyway, I need to go now, I need to catch a train, thanks everyone!08:12
flypigThanks Nico, safe travels!08:12
flypigAnd best of luck with your thesis.08:13
NicoThank you <308:13
flypigthilo[m], XA2 is nile, which Sony provides firmware blobs for up to Android 11 it seems, so I suppose it's possible, but I don't know that's it's been done.08:19
flypigthilo[m], from internal discussions, it seems different bases have different issues, and the XA2 based on 8 is in good shape, so it's unlikely a newer base would inherently make it better.08:23
ThaodanNewer kernel and vendor could bring improvements08:23
ThaodanNewer kernels have better cgroup support etc.08:24
flypigMaybe it's something to try then (not by me though: I don't have the skills).08:25
flypigAlright, we heading to wrapping up time. Does anyone want anything added to the minutes from the discussion?08:25
flypigOr any final remarks?08:26
ExTechOpI'd really like to run SFOS on 10 III :-D08:26
sleepnicely[m]thilo: I only got the 10 III 4 days ago, but haven't experienced any bugs yet, just the camera is little bit too slow while launching but I don't really care about camera in a phone that much08:26
flypig#info Much interest for the Xperia 10 III release of Sailfish OS.08:27
ExTechOpOh, and I'd like to thank piggz for the "Advanced Camera"08:27
flypigYou want that in the minutes?08:27
abrXa2 wouldn't be good on 64bit08:27
ExTechOpflypig No, I just noted he is here and wanted to ping him08:28
flypigExTechOp, good that you did! Thanks.08:28
flypigabr, do you want to elaborate?08:29
flypigOkay, we should wrap up. It's a shame the people who submitted questions weren't here today to discuss them, but I'm glad we had some nice discussions anyway.08:31
flypig#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:31
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 28th April 2022)"08:31
flypigProposing Thursday 12th May at 07:00am UTC08:31
ThaodanExTechOp: Go build it :p08:32
flypigAlright, and no objections, so let's call that a decision :)08:32
flypig#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 12th May 2022 at 07:00am UTC:  2022-05-12T0700Z08:32
abrJust that it's a bit low on RAM. Would most likely get more oom problems than the newer xperias08:32
flypigOkay, a nice remark to wrap up on. Thank you abr, and thanks to everyone today for some nice discussion and good progress.08:33
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Apr 28 08:33:22 2022 UTC.08:33
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 28th April 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:33
dcalisteThank you everyone.08:33
ThaodanNext meeting right on 🇫🇮 Suomalaisuuden päivä: Day of Finnish Identity08:33
ExTechOpThanks everyone!08:34
flypigThaodan, nice! Can we sing the national anthem on IRC?08:34
Thaodanflypig: Do you want to go and sign in the office? :D08:35
flypigI'm up for it :) But nobody wants to be on the receiving end of my bad singing I'm afraid.08:36
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 12th May 2022 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:38
piggzExTechOp: pong :) .... was there a meeting?108:47
piggzwas a long one it seems08:48
ExTechOppiggz Indeed there was, but I believe it was the "usual" 1½ hours. I opened a discussion thread on github about  harbour-advance-camera enhancements10:00
piggzExTechOp: thx10:25

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