Thursday, 2023-09-14

*** ChanServ sets mode: -o sailbot04:33
ExTechOpGood morning/day/evening, everyone!06:59
rainemakGood morning!06:59
rainemak#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 202307:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Sep 14 07:00:16 2023 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.07:00
rainemak#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
rainemakI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.07:00
rainemak#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community07:00
flypig_#info David Llewellyn-Jones, community07:01
Alan[m]Hi. Good morning.07:01
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o sailbot07:02
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today07:02
Keto#info Pami Ketolainen, sailor @ Jolla07:03
rainemakI'm very pleased to see good amount of topics raised07:03
jpwalden#info JP Walden, sailor @ Jolla07:04
rainemakIt's a tie 3-3 - counting Alan[m] to community07:05
sebix[m]#info Sebix, community07:05
flypig_Community wins! ??07:05
rainemakcommunity won :-)07:05
rainemaklet's move to first topic07:06
rainemak#topic SailfishOS Edition of the Pinephone Pro (10 mins -- asked by piggz)07:06
*** sailbot changes topic to "SailfishOS Edition of the Pinephone Pro (10 mins -- asked by piggz) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> I have been approached by Pine64, who would like to make available an edition of the PinephonePro pre-loaded with07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> my SailfishOS port on the Pine store. I am more than happy for this to happen (with some caveats) and would like to07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> know if Jolla would be against this in any particularly strong way. There is precedence for something like this, the07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> “Jolla Devices” store sells sony xperias pre-loaded with the free editions of SailfishOS, and I would of-course not be07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> shipping any of the components that typically require the SailfishX license. I see this good PR and advertising for07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> Jolla and it will only make Sailfish more known.07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> (the caveats are that i feel the Pro version of the sailfish os port is not as stable/usable as for the regular07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> pinephone just yet, so i would like this to be made clear so as to not disappoint users, and hopefully it would bring07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> in more developers)07:06
rainemak​#info <piggz> It would be greatly appreciated if you could reach out to me before the meeting, so that the details can be worked out07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> with Pine. If you have any conditions, then I would of-course be more than happy to do my best. (for example, DanctNix07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> which is based on arch, does not use the name Arch so to be less associated with that project, would you want to not07:06
rainemak#info <piggz> use the Sailfish name?)07:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> First, it’s great to hear that you were approached by Pine64 regarding your Pine Phone Pro port. There shouldn’t be07:07
rainemak#info <Jolla> major roadblocks in this. However, there are different aspects that we should clarify & check. We shared some details &07:07
rainemak#info <Jolla> questions to piggz.07:07
rainemak#info Please do not mix that webshop that sells pre-installed free editions of SailfishOS to this. As far as I know, it is the free version Sailfish OS by Jolla that is produced in Sailfish X program not a community edition.07:07
rainemakSomething happen to wrapping... Hopefully can parse above07:08
flypig_It makes sense here :)07:08
ExTechOpFirst time I hear of that webshop, I assume it has nothing to do with Jolla?07:09
rainemakCorrect, it has nothing to do with Jolla07:09
piggz#info piggz community ... seems matrix isnt bridging here :)07:11
piggzrainemak: you asked about editing the About dialog ... how possible is that?07:12
rainemakHopefully I see latest image today on Pine Phone Pro07:13
rainemakThen I can say about the actual details regarding the content07:13
piggzgreat ... dont get too excited, ood its not great, but with a zypper dup it should work better ...07:13
piggzi also have a custom ofono build that works better than the default i think07:13
piggzSo, the answer is there are no major objections, hopefully some tweaks and its possible to have consent?07:14
rainemakSettings -> About product is relatively simple to customize from kickstart as needed07:14
piggzah, i didnt know that07:15
piggzyou could pR the kickstart :)07:15
rainemakI can try to share you some pointers later07:15
rainemakpiggz, "So, the answer is there are no major objections, hopefully some tweaks and its possible to have consent?" => Yes, that sounds about right07:16
rainemakis this covered? are we good to move on?07:17
flypig_This is amazing!07:17
piggzsuperb ... i look forward to helping out when you get your pro ... there are several things you need to know about bootloaders and firmware to get the best experience07:17
piggzflypig_: yes :)07:17
flypig_Three cheers for piggz and Jolla :D07:17
rainemak#topic regarding keyboard input issues in android apps (6 mins -- asked by thigg)07:17
*** sailbot changes topic to "regarding keyboard input issues in android apps (6 mins -- asked by thigg) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:17
rainemak#info <thigg> there are two issues with keyboard input in some android apps. One is that deleted text appears again and the other07:18
rainemak#info <thigg> that after placing the cursor added text sometimes is inserted at the previous location. It looks like the issue is07:18
rainemak#info <thigg> around for quite a while and I’d like to help to find the cause. Can you describe how the input is actually passed and07:18
rainemak#info <thigg> if we have a chance from the community side to investigate into this?07:18
rainemak#info <Jolla> We don’t know exactly what the issue is, more investigation needed. We have seen the issue, but this hasn’t been a07:18
rainemak#info <Jolla> priority. There are some stub Android methods in our “RemoteKeyboard” component and those might be relevant.07:18
rainemak#info <Jolla> Easiest to help via the forum ticket.07:19
ExTechOp(I've also occasionally seen this, and I've tried to understand when it happens, to no avail -- it only seems to happen when it is the most inconvenient, so I'm suspecting AI intereference)07:20
rainemakExTechOp, there are quite good steps reported in the forum ticket07:21
rainemakand yes it's annoying07:21
rainemakWe have a lot of topics still. If no objects, let's move07:22
rainemak#topic Updating the Linux kernel headers (10 mins -- asked by flypig)07:23
*** sailbot changes topic to "Updating the Linux kernel headers (10 mins -- asked by flypig) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> Currently the Sailfish OS repos contain kernel headers for Linux 3.18. Is there scope for them to be updated in future07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> releases? The motivation is that Gecko ESR 91 requires the linux/membarrier.h header (specifically __NR_membarrier)07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> which was introduced in kernel headers 4.3. Gecko checks at runtime that the capabilities are available before using07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> them. With thanks to @mal for his help with this.07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> Related links:07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> 1. Upstream change that makes this useful: D88395 Bug 1661016: aarch64: Invalidate icache when compiling on a background thread; r=nbp,lth07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> 2. Sailfish kernel-headers repo: GitHub - sailfishos/kernel-headers07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> 3. Sailfish pre-build linux 5.4 headers: Show nemo:devel:hw:native-common / kernel-headers - SailfishOS Open Build Service07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> 4. Comparing Linux headers: __NR_membarrier identifier - Linux source code (v4.3) - Bootlin07:23
rainemak#info <flypig> 5. Background: Gecko-dev Diary07:23
rainemak#info <Jolla> Thank you for raising this. Something that we should look at some point.07:23
rainemakCertainly, we should help you flypig_ regarding esr91 efforts07:24
flypig_Thanks; regarding the headers, mal has already been a big help. It's not a blocker, but I wanted to flag it anyway.07:24
flypig_And in fact, I've had lots of help from all over the place (inside and outside Jolla). And I really appreciate it!07:25
rainemakNice to hear!07:25
flypig_Are there still devices running a <4.3 kernel?07:25
rainemakSupported ones, I don't think so. Jolla Phone required older kernel header.07:27
flypig_My X10 III is on
flypig_I guess some community builds may be then.07:27
rainemakThat's very plausible07:27
rainemakflypig_, you find with the answer? I'm trying to speed up a bit :-)07:28
flypig_Okay; well, thanks for the answer, it'd be great if Jolla finds time to look at this although I understand if not. I'm happy for us to move on :)07:28
flypig_Thank you, yes! All fine!07:29
rainemak#topic Stabilizing TextArea.focusOutBehavior (5 mins -- asked by direc85)07:29
*** sailbot changes topic to "Stabilizing TextArea.focusOutBehavior (5 mins -- asked by direc85) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:29
rainemak#info <direc85> Jolla Messages keeps the keyboard open after the message has been sent, so sending the next message is easier.07:29
rainemak#info <direc85> Whisperfish, a Signal client, would have benefited from the same behaviour from the start, but we couldn’t figure out07:29
rainemak#info <direc85> how it was done. Eventually I stumbled upon the solution while looking for something else – see Whisperfish issue 48907:29
rainemak#info <direc85> 1 – it turned out to be the TextArea.focusOutBehavior, which is an undocumented property, inherited from the private07:29
rainemak#info <direc85> side. Could Jolla stabilize the property and document it so other applications could easier replicate the same07:29
rainemak#info <direc85> behaviour?07:29
rainemak#info <Jolla> Example apps sailfishsilica-qt5-demos and sailfishsilica-qt5-demos-private are good examples that could be used to07:29
rainemak#info <Jolla> check how components can be used. Whether a property is inherited from the private TextBase or not is not a problem.07:29
rainemak#info <Jolla> TextField documentation already have properties and methods documented that are coming from the TextBase. Your07:29
rainemak#info <Jolla> suggestion to document focusOutBehavior sounds like a good idea.07:29
flypig_Are the docs generated from docstrings in a closed repo?07:30
rainemakyes and yes07:30
flypig_Okay, so no scope for community to create a PR. Just checking.07:31
rainemakthere's actually follow up to this in next topic07:31
rainemakdirec85 couldn't participate I think we'll just move on07:31
rainemak#topic Improving Silica documentation (10 mins -- asked by direc85)07:31
*** sailbot changes topic to "Improving Silica documentation (10 mins -- asked by direc85) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:31
rainemak#info <direc85> There are typos, mistakes and simply wrong information in the Silica documentation 1. Example: By documentation,07:31
rainemak#info <direc85> PageStack.push() takes var page, PageStack.replace() takes int page and PageStack.nextPage() takes Page page – by07:31
rainemak#info <direc85> experiments I can tell they all take Page type variable. I mentioned about this in the #sailfishos channel some07:31
rainemak#info <direc85> months ago, but it was not reacted to, even there was now active conversation after that for some time (if my memory07:31
rainemak#info <direc85> serves me right). Another example of vast amount of missing data is list of inherited methods and properties. As Qt07:32
rainemak#info <direc85> documentation website defaults to Qt 6, manually jumping to version Qt 5.6 needs to be done often, so having even the07:32
rainemak#info <direc85> Qt part of the list would be most helpful. Could the current documentation be opened to pull requests so community07:32
rainemak#info <direc85> could contribute to it? If not, what is the preferred way for the community to contribute?07:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> Thank you for your input. There’s clearly an error in the PageStack.replace() – let's fix that. The PageStack.nextPage07:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> is not similar to PageStack.push nor to PageStack.replace as PageStack.nextPage is a lookup function that returns the07:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> page that follows fromPage argument (instance of a Page). Whereas both push and replace allow lazy page creation by07:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> passing Page Component or by passing url (usually used along with Qt.resolvedUrl). In addition, both push and replace07:32
rainemak#info <Jolla> accept a Page instance or an array of Page instances. This is the reason why these two take var argument.07:32
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> Hint: from application start up and Page creation point of view many times best approach is to use resolved url as it07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> defers both component compilation and object creation at the point when a page is really needed. Thus, avoids07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> unnecessary compilation and instance creations. Instantiating Page instances ahead of time is not usually good idea.07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> You can accidentally write your QML so Pages are created too early for example by declaring needed Pages somewhere07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> without wrapping them to Components.07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> Documenting Qt properties and methods as part of Silica documentation is tricky. Certainly, we understand and see your07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> point that it would be helpful to have.07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> We haven’t really considered opening only documentation parts of closed repositories as that’s currently part of the07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla> same repository as the source codes.07:33
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:34
rainemak#info <Jolla> Preferred way for community to contribute would be raising API documentation issues in the forum. We can consider07:34
rainemak#info <Jolla> creating a separate category for API documentation discussion if there would be plenty of discussion. If that is07:34
rainemak#info <Jolla> preferred approach, please let us know.07:34
flypig_I suppose this relates to all the documentation under (not just Silica docs)?07:36
rainemaknot all but most07:36
flypig_Okay; some is in open repos.07:37
rainemakbut mangling Qt docs and/link to the Sailfish docs is tricky for them all07:37
rainemakand/or links07:37
flypig_What are the alternatives (I'm not saying these are *good* alternatives): 1) Put the code in open repos with a closed license. 2) Put the html in a repo for people to create PRs against which Jolla could then transfer. 3)....?07:38
rainemakPutting html to a repo doesn't sound right07:39
rainemakbut having qdoc files in open could maybe work07:40
flypig_Is there a way to output just the docstring source? It sounds messy.07:40
nephros_You can use qdoc config to link to the qt doc archive pages for 5.6  but it will require modificatiin of the source qdoc comments.07:40
rainemaknephros_, linking is different that I'm thinking... I thinking more about bundling.07:41
rainemakthere's clearly some food for thoughts - let's continue this discussion at the end if we have time left07:42
rainemak#topic Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by jolla / flypig)07:42
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (10 mins -- asked by jolla / flypig) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:42
flypig_Just to say, if there is a way to get the qdoc files out, that would be really neat.07:42
rainemak#info <flypig> These are all Gecko ESR 91 related. These aren’t stuck, I’m just raising them in case there’s any need to discuss them.07:43
rainemak#info <flypig>07:43
rainemak#info <flypig> ICU 70.1 (thanks for looking at this already)07:43
rainemak#info <flypig> Open PR URL: Update to version 70.1 by llewelld · Pull Request #1 · sailfishos/icu · GitHub 107:43
rainemak#info This was merged already.07:43
rainemak#info <flypig / direc85> GCC backported patch (special thanks to direct85 for this)07:43
rainemak#info <flypig / direc85>07:43
rainemak#info <flypig / direc85>07:43
rainemak#info <flypig / direc85> Open PR URL: [gcc] Prefer bsl/bit/bif for copysignf. (backport GCC-8) by direc85 · Pull Request #4 · sailfishos/gcc · GitHub07:43
rainemak#info <flypig / direc85> Related thread: Compiling GCC for SDK07:43
rainemak#info <flypig / direc85> Query: Is there a way to get the aarch64 build on OBS to complete so I can test this; alternatively is there07:43
rainemak#info <flypig / direc85> a way to do ‘dumb’ builds using the local SDK?07:43
rainemakI think simplest probably would be community OBS but we could also give a spin07:44
flypig_As it happens the latest changes built for aarch64 on OBS last night, so I can now test this on the gecko source. I don't think it makes sense to merge it before that.07:44
flypig_A massive thanks to mal, Keto and direc85 for all their work and help with this.07:45
rainemakIndeed! Great effort!07:46
rainemak#info <flypig> cbindgen 0.19.0 (thanks for all the useful feedback on this as well)07:46
rainemak#info <flypig> Open PR URL: [packaging] Update to version 0.19.0 by llewelld · Pull Request #7 · sailfishos/rust-cbindgen · GitHub 107:46
rainemak#info <flypig>
rainemak#info This was merged as well.07:46
piggzre gcc ... does that include c++20 support?07:46
flypig_It's not an update to gcc I'm afraid, it's just backporting of a patch to fix a specific crash bug.07:46
piggzah ok .. im wondering if/when c++20 will be on sfos07:47
rainemakdo you want to hear nice tiny little funny thingie?07:47
piggzjust becuase i happen to have been asked this morning by some kde devs!07:47
piggzrainemak: sure07:47
flypig_Absolutely :)07:47
rainemakafter icu & rust-cbindgen got integrated your devel xulrunner build finally successfully for armv7hl07:48
rainemakxulrunner has been long time borken for armv7hl and we haven't figured why it was borken.07:49
flypig_Oh, wow. With this new info, do you know why it was?07:49
rainemakmy bets are on rust-cbindgen and something changed in the generated code07:49
flypig_That's a bit crazy!07:50
abrthat's great news!07:50
rainemak#info <Jolla> Any other open PRs to discuss?07:51
flypig_xulrunner is a carefully balanced tower, it seems!07:51
rainemakmoving on07:51
rainemak#topic Untracked bug reports (5 min -- asked by pherjung)07:51
*** sailbot changes topic to "Untracked bug reports (5 min -- asked by pherjung) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:51
rainemak#info <pherjung> Untracked bug reports07:51
rainemak#info <Jolla> The Community Bug Coordination Team have done a superb job once again this fortnight.07:51
rainemak#info <Jolla>07:51
rainemak#info <Jolla> As a result of their work, we now have:07:51
rainemak#info <Jolla> 9 high quality bug reports now recorded internally and tagged as "tracked".07:51
rainemak#info <Jolla> 4 bug reports marked as "pending" more info.07:51
rainemak#info <Jolla> 3 bug reports tagged as "fixed".07:51
rainemak#info <Jolla> 1 marked as duplicates and closed.07:51
flypig_Four more bugs down! Great stuff.07:52
rainemakjpwalden checked and flagged both and
rainemakMuch appreciated07:53
flypig_Great work all!07:53
rainemakLet's move on to the general discussion.07:53
rainemak#topic General discussion (5 min)07:53
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:53
piggzrainemak: this comment from vige says gcc update is tracked internally, can i infer that means its planned to be updated?
rainemakpiggz, it's tracked but also a big effort07:55
flypig_I just want to put on record thanks to Thaodan and you rainemak as well, along with mal, Keto and direc85[m] for the help with those PRs. Sorry if I forgot anyone.07:55
piggzid also like to say thanks for accepting the PPP proposal07:55
flypig_piggz, do you have a timeline for when it will happen?07:56
rainemakpiggz, I'll try to get back to you in a week with more details07:56
abrcan't wait to see a ppp with a fish printed on the back :)07:56
piggzabr: not sure they will be printing cusot cases :(07:57
piggzthat was the original PP community editions ... this i think will just be a PPP preloaded07:57
rainemakI just want to say thank you all regarding the meeting input07:57
abrah ok. it'll have to be a sticker then...07:57
rainemakwe're running out of time07:58
rainemaklet's schedule next meeting07:58
flypig_Thanks for all the answers rainemak.07:58
rainemak#topic Next meeting time and date (2 min)07:58
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (2 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 14th Sep 2023)"07:58
rainemakProposing Thursday 28th September at 07:00am UTC.07:58
flypig_No clock changes; no holidays; looks good :D07:59
rainemak#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 28th September 2023 at 07:00am UTC: 2023-09-28T0700Z07:59
rainemakThank you all!07:59
ExTechOpThank you, everybody!07:59
flypig_Thank you!07:59
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Sep 14 08:00:10 2023 UTC.08:00
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 14th September 2023 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:00
flypig_Perfect timing ;)08:00
Alan[m]Thank you.08:00
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 28th September 2023 at 07:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"12:05
*** rainemak_ is now known as rainemak12:55

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