Thursday, 2024-02-29

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flypigGood morning!07:52
rainemakGood morning!07:54
ExTechOpGood Morning, everyone!07:54
piggz[m]Flypig: was thinking last night ive missed a trick and could have done a dev diary for my ofono experiments07:57
rainemakpiggz[m], that would have been nice to read for sure07:58
flypigYes, seconded. I'd have loved to follow along!07:59
rainemak#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 202408:00
sailbotMeeting started Thu Feb 29 08:00:00 2024 UTC. The chair is rainemak. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.08:00
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024)"08:00
rainemak#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:08:00
rainemakI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and bee-hive.08:00
rainemak#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info08:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024)"08:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community08:00
piggz[m]#info Adam Pigg, community08:01
rainemak#info Raine Mäkeläinen, sailor @ Jolla, chairperson today08:01
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones, community08:01
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for wotsits:)08:01
Crabster#info Crabster - lurker08:02
abr#info Andrew Branson, sailing by08:02
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community08:02
pvuorela#info Pekka Vuorela, Jolla08:03
flypigHope you're fully recovered Pekka?!08:04
pvuorelaflypig: quite ok at this point08:04
rainemakWe have two topics today. Let's have lively discsussions today as usual.08:04
flypigGlad to hear that!08:05
rainemak#topic Jolla’s retraction of ~ 15 open sourced components in October 2023 (15mins -- asked by olf)08:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "Jolla’s retraction of ~ 15 open sourced components in October 2023 (15mins -- asked by olf) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024)"08:05
rainemak#info <olf> Is Jolla planning the re-release the source code of the ~ 1508:05
rainemak#info <olf> software components, which had been released BSD-licensed each in08:05
rainemak#info <olf> an own GitHub repository in September to Oktober 2023?08:05
rainemak#info <olf> If so, …08:05
rainemak#info <olf>     When?08:05
rainemak#info <olf>     all fifteen of them, less, or even more?08:05
rainemak#info <olf>     using the same BSD license as the first time?08:05
rainemak#info <olf>08:05
rainemak#info <olf> Background:08:05
rainemak#info <olf>08:05
rainemak#info <olf> The source code of some of these software components was really08:05
rainemak#info <olf> helpful as a documentation how things really work, plus how to build08:05
rainemak#info <olf> software using them and how to extend them.08:05
rainemak#info <olf>08:05
rainemak#info <olf> Furthermore, having the source code of these components accessible at08:05
rainemak#info <olf> GitHub allows for writing proper bug reports or even bug fixes for08:05
rainemak#info <olf> contributors.08:05
rainemak#info <Jolla> Open sourcing more components in general is in our roadmap. Timing08:05
rainemak#info <Jolla> is an open question. Please keep following these meetings and08:05
rainemak#info <Jolla> fortnight newsletters. You’ll hear about this. At the end you08:05
rainemak#info <Jolla> likely (should) see more components available. License selection08:05
rainemak#info <Jolla> happens case by case. There can be cases were dynamic linking/08:05
rainemak#info <Jolla> static linking/IPC (details matter) affects to what license can be08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> chosen.08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla>08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> Your background thinking is spot on! Documenting, use them (goes08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> hand in hand with documentation), extend them, better bug reports,08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> and even contributing fixes are very much in the core of our08:06
rainemak#info <Jolla> thinking as well.08:06
Thaodansorry late08:06
rainemakNo worries08:06
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - Sailor @ Jolla08:06
dcalisteOpen sourcing various components has been on the radar from the start of Jolla compagny, as far as I remember. It happened for some (browser, office document) and that was great. But then nothing came out for various internal reasons that you cannot disclose here I guess.08:09
dcalisteCan you say that such internal blockers are now gone or mitigated ?08:10
rainemakMay ask on this context how familiar you're with roadmap ? I'm asking out of curiosity as I'm think we do need to explain these kind of planning tools at point as well.08:10
rainemakdcaliste, and middleware development has been done in open08:10
dcalisteYes, I forgot to mention secrets and various amber components. You're right.08:11
rainemakdcaliste, and others08:12
dcalisteSure, non exhaustive listing ;)08:12
rainemakdcaliste, we have still some let's say more urgent topics on our table and those need to be sorted out first. I'd expect that during spring you should start seeing new open source components.08:14
dcalisteGreat, that definitely answer my question. Of course, urgent topics first, no problem. Thank you for your answer.08:15
ThaodanRegarding documentation I think it is very important that both the community and we Jolla try to give each some room. Sometimes it can be very difficult to communicate with some. It would help to try to read first, then write and forgive us if we make mistakes or don't have the time to answer.08:19
rainemakI've thinking about about community roadmap but it has it's downsides. As this community comes from various background it's not necessarily easy to understand what is roadmap as planning tool versus promises. This can cause misinterpretations. How do you see this?08:19
dcalisteI understand roadmap target are moving target (in term of time) depending on which depends on them.08:20
ThaodanI think communication on the required work, how easy it is do the work and how community can help is important.08:20
flypigIt's ironic that the community can't help with the actual process of open sourcing. But we can help with docs once the code is available.08:21
rainemakI'll extend this topic by 5mins08:21
rainemakMeaning 3mins left :-)08:22
ThaodanIf community could answer how we can help them to understand the merits of a community roadmap better it would help.08:23
ThaodanIt would really help to get some in IRC which try to avoid it.08:23
Thaodani.e. olf08:23
dcalisteThaodan, sure, I agree with you about being understanding and forgiven. Mistakes are made from both side and everyone makes some.08:24
rainemakdcaliste, indeed! Well said.08:24
flypigMore info on the roadmap would be really helpful in my opinion. We can all do our bit to emphasise that it's not a promise but an intention.08:25
rainemakThing is that we're sailing together08:25
flypig+1 to that08:25
Thaodan+1 I agree on that very much too08:26
ThaodanI think we are talking to the quire here.08:26
ThaodanIt's more about those which don't join these meetings08:26
rainemaklet's see what could be proper timing but we'll come back to this roadmap topic as well08:26
rainemakTime to move on08:27
rainemak#topic eSIM support in Sailfish OS (5mins -- asked by cquence)08:27
*** sailbot changes topic to "eSIM support in Sailfish OS (5mins -- asked by cquence) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024)"08:27
rainemak#info <cquence> Can you clarify what is the situation with eSIM support? Is the08:27
rainemak#info <cquence> eSIM transparent to the OS and can be used as a regular SIM card08:27
rainemak#info <cquence> or does it need work? If additional work is required is it08:27
rainemak#info <cquence> something that can then be used across all devices or is work08:27
rainemak#info <cquence> required for each supported device to enable eSIM for it?08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> Certainly, we’ll try to clarify. The eSIM support needs development08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> effort so it’s not that transparent. We have not been looking eSIM #info <Jolla> too deeply, but we’d not be surprised if the implementation would08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> be hardware specific. Based on initial investigation, changes are08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> probably needed at a higher level to add support for handling the08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> QR-codes specific to downloading the eSIM profile, and then more08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> code would be needed to process the profile, and finally oFono08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> would need additions to support the eSIM profile for setting up the08:27
rainemak#info <Jolla> mobile network. So not a trivial piece of work.08:27
flypigI've not been following, but are handsets generally dropping hardware SIM support now?08:28
flypigOr are carriers dropping hardware SIM support?08:29
rainemakNot yet, I'd say but eSIM certainly help a lot if you're traveling a lot08:29
rainemakNo need for roaming and associated cost08:29
abrIt's becoming more popular for a second SIM than an additional slot08:30
rainemakabr, very much so08:30
ThaodanI fear that something's are moving more in a way were old methods don't work any more like carrier configuration messages.08:30
ThaodanOr that carriers implement things in a way which makes competition harder08:30
flypigRight, that makes sense. Can you have more than two? Sailfish is quite locked to max two SIMs at the moment if I recall correctly (in the UI at least).08:30
ThaodanMaybe two active sims but not all sims are always active?08:31
abrI think if it's possible then it's very rare08:31
rainemakflypig, you're right. Multi sim is limited to two. I'm not familiar with eSIM myself, but I think it goes like abr said08:31
ThaodanThe modem only can do one08:31
flypigInteresting. Two is more than enough for me right now, so just asking out of curiosity :)08:32
rainemakThaodan, there are two modes: dual active and dual standby08:32
Thaodanconfusing that abr isn't abranson :)08:32
rainemaklast time I check dual active was like totally not supported08:32
rainemak^ almost like that08:32
rainemakSomething more? It would be time to move on08:34
rainemak#topic Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla)08:34
*** sailbot changes topic to "Open PR discussion (5 mins -- asked by Jolla) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024)"08:34
rainemak#info <Jolla> Any open PRs to discuss?08:34
ThaodanSome only support one call sim where the other is data only or something08:34
rainemakThat'd be even more limited than dual standby08:35
rainemakbut let's move on08:35
rainemakif needed we continue this on the general discussion at the end08:35
dcalisteI guess you (in general or mal) are aware of and ?08:37
rainemakdcaliste, thank you for reminding08:39
rainemakAs there are no bug reports today. Let's move to general discussion.08:40
rainemak#topic General discussion (10 min)08:40
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (10 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024)"08:40
flypigWe had reports from a new user that is having trouble getting the fingerprint reader on an Xperia X to scan. Does anyone have any advice I could pass on?08:41
rainemakI don't have anything special in mind. Glad about this very good discussion that we had once again.08:41
sledges#info Wanted to share this crazy workaround to fix voice echo during calls to Xperia 10 III:08:42
ExTechOprainemak, how have you people been at Jolla/Jollyboys?08:42
rainemakflypig, we have done some fixes... hopefully those would help.08:42
sledgesSadly you'll have to sacrifice your loudspeaker for this fix...08:42
ThaodanI'm working for quite some time on an update notification/search service that allows community ports to have nearly the same device upgrades experience as those have been ported by Jolla:
ExTechOpsledges Do you have any idea how Sony avoids falling into this echoing pit of despair themselves, do they kludge this somehow on their own Android installation?08:45
dcalisteMaybe Thaodan, may you explain (again?) what you meant earlier about "a community roadmap" ? Did you mean that we as a community should create a page somewhere where we can put what we plan as contributions ? Or something else that I did not get...08:45
sledgesExTechOp: they must be spending more time debugging and patching up their stock Android parts08:45
dcalisteThaodan, looking at your COS update, it sounds great ! Thanks.08:46
sledgesI.e. their "productisation" team leaves AOSP behind...08:46
flypigThanks rainemak; I'll pass that on! If anyone else has suggestions, please ping me (the discussion is here for ref:
Thaodandcaliste: I was referring to what Raine was talking about, how we show things in away that makes it easy to understand for community08:47
flypigThaodan, as we discussed, it'd be great to cover cosupdateservice in the newsletter. Can we discuss it this weekend?08:47
Thaodansledges: I think their productisation team is different from sony aosp08:47
Thaodanflypig: yes of course08:47
flypigGreat, thanks!08:48
rainemakdcaliste, more open community roadmap like of thing I'd say08:48
ThaodanThe trouble is to figure out from where the issue comes and that we don't tend to upgrade ports08:48
flypigsledges, can we put something in about your work as well?08:48
Thaodanall the fixes go to their latest target port08:48
sledgesflypig: sure, it was a dealbreaker for many to install SFOS to their x10ii.iii08:49
rainemakdcaliste, provided by us, updated by us/together, ... something like that. The actual tool could initially be quite limited08:49
dcalisteThaodan, rainemak, ok, I think I get it. The last newsletter was great in that regard : it gave an idea of what is the plan for the next let say 3 months. Which is new as far as I can say. And that is great !08:49
ThaodanIt have been quite bad on Xperia 1 II too..08:49
ExTechOpsledges That is, they are breaking the AOSP license?08:49
sledgesExTechOp: AOSP is not the same as for e.g. Linux kernel licence, where you must disclose all source changes08:50
flypigsledges, really great work.08:50
sledgesCrazy amount of banging head into the wall:)08:51
rainemakdcaliste, I'm thinking / pondering that we could piggyback "roadmap news" in the newsletter... let's see how that thinking evolves08:51
ThaodanI have been creating these meta bugs where I collect all the upstream bugs affecting my port(s). something like this could be helpful for Jolla ports too08:52
flypigI can only imagine :) Your comment on GitHub shows quite a story :)08:52
sledgesflypig: to make the kludge-script to be SFOS friendly, we'll just need to add the `scp ... defaultuser@...` line08:52
sledges(and devel-su)08:53
dcalisterainemak, that would be great. Don't need to be a mandatory part of the newsletter if there is no change to the previous plan of course.08:53
rainemakyeap, something like that08:53
flypigThanks sledges, I'll message you for a bit more info. I have to drop off now due to trains, but thanks for a nice meeting everyone.08:54
rainemakthanks flypig !08:54
sledgesSure, catch me on socials08:54
rainemaknice and lively discussion once again08:54
ThaodanI like the script but I fear I accidentally will enable speaker :D08:54
dcalisteThank you flypig.08:54
Thaodanflypig: bb see you08:54
sledgesP.S. A patch to SFOS for removing loudspeaker icon was many times crossing my mind08:55
rainemaklet's schedule next meeting still...08:55
rainemak#topic Next meeting time and date (5 mins)08:55
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 mins) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 29th Feb 2024)"08:55
ExTechOpsledges Does Sony actually release updated firmware for eg Xperia 10III hardware?08:55
sledgesExTechOp: yes, it received Android 12 then 1308:55
rainemakProposing Thursday 14th March at 08:00am UTC08:56
ExTechOpsledges Do the blobs that come with those still contain these bugs?08:56
sledgesExTechOp: not, because that's where I took the fix from (AOSP 12 blobs)08:57
ExTechOpsledges ah, missed that. Could the SFOS install process be updated to use these?08:58
rainemaksledges, and thank for the echo tips!08:58
sledgesExTechOp: the whole adaptation needs to be bumped, that never happened to a SFOS devices, it stayed on initial firmware08:58
ThaodanThere were effort to look it can be done but we haven't come to that point08:59
sledgesThere were many community efforts though (sorry for spamming:)08:59
ThaodanI have some ideas how to at least ensure that the device won't boot without the right blobs08:59
rainemakno objects regarding the next meeting...08:59
rainemak#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 14th March 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-03-14T0800Z08:59
ThaodanSome community/voidanix ported my Xperia 1/5 port to A11 for example.09:00
rainemakThank you everybody! This was a good one as usual!09:00
sledgesXperia X newer port was the most famous09:00
rainemakfeel free to continue :-)09:00
ExTechOpThanks everyone! And sledges, your hard-hitting hacking is most appreciated.09:01
sledgesSad it took so long, but better later than later than that09:01
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Feb 29 09:02:21 2024 UTC.09:02
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 29th February 2024 at 08:00am UTC: 2024-02-29T0800Z"09:02
Crabsterthx #?09:03
dcalisteThank you everyone for this interesting discussion. Enjoy the day !09:04
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