Sunday, 2013-03-17

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GentSirlbt, it's very quiet in here09:22
lbtTrue - it *is* sunday morning though :D09:23
lbtSo GentSir... are you enjoying the SDK so far?09:24
GentSirI haven't even touched it, I'm more interested as a user than a developer09:25
lbtah :)09:26
lbtthat part definitely comes later09:26
GentSirI have an N9 I absolutely loved, saw Sailfish is going to be very similar to MeeGo09:26
GentSiryou know what, I'll take a look at the SDK09:27
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lbtplease do - although I will say that the Alpha SDK is rather light in tutorials09:27
GentSirMy programming experience is limited to a little bit of C, Python, and VB.Net. I'm nowhere near excellent, but I can learn09:28
lbtoh, that' should be fine then09:28
lbtyou may find you need to follow the plain Qt QML tutorials first - then play with the SailfishOS ones09:28
GentSirI've done some very basic stuff on Android, but I feel like Dalvik is bloated09:29
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lbtand asking questions or reporting areas where it's hard to learn: here or on the mailing list,  will help us identify areas to improve09:29
GentSirWhat language is used for development?09:30
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lbtQML and javascript for the UI ... C++ for the deeper logic if you need to09:31
GentSirI'm very interested in a phone that's more "business" like with a Linux base. I'm also watching Tizen closely. It's a shame what happened to MeeGo09:33
lbtyes, agreed09:34
GentSirMay I ask what you currently use?09:34
lbtphone? I use a Sailfish device :D09:35
lbtI have an N9 and N900 too09:35
Sfiet_Konstantinlbt: :D09:36
Sfiet_Konstantinlbt: do you really have a sailfish device right now as a phone ?09:36
lbtof course. But that's all I can say about it :)09:36
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GentSirlbt, sailfish on an N9?09:36
lbtYou've seen the MWC videos etc09:37
Sfiet_Konstantinlbt: so it is on the N950 ? :)09:37
GentSirI've always considered the N950 the holy grail of smartphones09:37
dm8tbrwhich conveniently is not a product09:37
dm8tbrand it's made of indestructium or something like that09:37
lbtIt is pretty good09:38
GentSirYou can find them on ebay for around $1500 every so often09:38
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Sfiet_Konstantinstrange, I'm the only one considering the N9 as better then ...09:38
lbtdm8tbr: apart from the screen09:38
GentSirI just like having a physical keyboard09:38
dm8tbrlbt: my screen healed itself from black lines :)09:38
GentSirBut I have an N9, though it's not used anymore09:39
Sfiet_Konstantindm8tbr: yeah, the only phone with autoheal capabilities09:39
lbtdm8tbr: really... mine is still fine09:39
dm8tbrnokia hardware engineering has always been superior09:40
GentSirlbt, are there plans for Sailfish devices with actual keyboards? That's the killer feature for me09:40
lbtGentSir: I really like the N9 actually09:40
GentSirn950 > n9, if I could get my hands on one09:40
lbtGentSir: nothing announced yet09:41
GentSirI currently use a Motorola Atrix 2 with CM10, completely removed from the google ecosystem with just what I need sideloaded on.09:41
lbtI wish I had more time to keep up with other hardware - I just accept that I need to focus on things that need doing09:42
GentSirGood attitude. But if I had a phone similar to the N950 with updated specs and Sailfish on it, I'd be learning every piece of that sdk09:43
lbtthe emulator is pretty good09:44
lbtactually it's a superb emulator - it *is* sailfish in a VM09:44
lbtso it really gets you ready for when devices arrive09:45
GentSirDoes sailfish run well on an N9?09:45
lbtNemo does09:46
GentSirI've heard about Nemo09:46
lbtSailfish builds on opensource projects - 2 in particular are Mer and Nemo09:47
GentSirWhy Nemo and Sailfish projects? Aren't they both based on Mir and have the same goals?09:47
GentSirwhoops *Mer09:47
lbtMer is a cool distro... Mir was a space station :)09:48
GentSiryes yes, sorry09:48
GentSirIt's pretty late for me09:48
lbtSo way back when we took over MeeGo we split it into core/middleware/ux/hardware09:48
lbtMer is the core09:48
lbtNemo holds middleware/ux and provides hardware adaptations09:49
lbtthis allows things like plasma active to also use Mer - and collaborate with Nemo09:49
GentSirI saw that sailfish uses qt, is the user interface based on plasma/kde?09:50
GentSirOr the qt that Nokia bought and was planning on using?09:50
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: nope09:50
GentSirExcuse my ignorance09:51
Sfiet_KonstantinKDE is based on Qt, but you can do UI without KDE :)09:51
GentSirI like the premise of the project, even with my limited skills09:51
GentSirI can at least promise I'll be buying a device when they're available, but I'll certainly be taking a look at the SDK today09:51
lbtQt is qt-project.org09:52
GentSirAre there plans to support more languages within the ide?09:54
GentSirSDK, I mean09:54
lbtyes, chinese, finnish ...09:54
GentSirAs in programming languages09:55
GentSirBut C++ works fine09:55
GentSireh, had a power surge09:59
lbtthere's no word yet on supported APIs for sailfish10:01
GentSirI'm assuming it'll be pretty decent10:02
GentSirlots of passionate people working on it10:03
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lbtit will certainly focus on Qt APIs - and things like the old QtMobility ones10:03
lbtthen we need to see what else is needed and supportable10:03
lbtnote that this is 'supported' not 'possible'10:04
GentSirI've never used qt, but i can learm10:04
lbtit truly is superb10:04
GentSiron my development desktop i use openbox10:06
GentSirso I've never touched qt10:06
spider-marioyou might have without realizing it10:07
spider-mariovlc uses Qt, for example (though it doesn’t really shine as an example of integration, imho)10:07
spider-mario(it uses its own icons, for example :/)10:07
GentSiri meant, I've never wrote any code that touches qt10:08
GentSirVLC is a great piece of software10:08
spider-marioit is, but its UI still leaves a little to be desired10:08
GentSirFair enough10:09
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Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: about other supported languages in sailfish10:43
Sfiet_Konstantintechnically, python + Qt (aka pyside) is supported as well10:43
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, Python is what I'm used to10:45
GentSirBut C++ is fine10:45
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: do whatever you want. If you want to write an app, python can be very fast10:46
Sfiet_Konstantinhowever, if you want to expand Qt capabilities (like adding plugins), it might be better to use C++10:46
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: openWhatsapp uses the python binding10:47
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, on modern hardware there's very little speed advantage to c++ over python in practice10:47
GentSirDeveloper time is more important than cpu time10:48
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: well, i don't think that you can extend Qt with python10:49
Sfiet_Konstantinlike adding new QML features10:49
GentSirI have no experience with Qt, but I have a little with C++10:49
GentSirI can learn10:49
spider-mariousing Python can add to binary size, though, since the interpreter is needed10:51
spider-mariowith Sailfish’s package management, it might not be a problem10:51
spider-mariobut it could under Android, I guess10:52
spider-mario(for example.)10:52
GentSirHow are you guys connected to the project? I'm just an interested observer10:52
spider-marioso am I10:52
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, how about you?10:53
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: I'm an enthusiast to the project as well10:55
Sfiet_KonstantinI developed for the N910:55
Sfiet_Konstantin(and am still developing)10:56
Sfiet_Konstantinand also a blogger for JollaFr (french Jolla blog)10:56
GentSirI own an N910:56
GentSirBut it hasn't been used in over a year10:56
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: why ?10:59
spider-marioI’d love an N911:00
spider-mariowell, I would have loved one when it was still alive11:00
spider-marionow, I’m eager to see what Jolla will release :)11:00
Sfiet_Konstantinme too11:00
GentSirI replaced it with a better android phone. But what I would do for an updated version of the N950...11:00
Sfiet_Konstantinespecially since Sailfish demos are more and more impressive11:00
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: don't dream11:00
Sfiet_Konstantinit is impossible for Jolla to release a keyboard device11:01
GentSirWhy is that?11:01
Sfiet_Konstantintoo much variants for different countries11:01
Sfiet_Konstantinin france, we have azerty and not qwerty etc11:01
Sfiet_Konstantinand how about china ?11:01
Sfiet_Konstantinmaybe the 2nd or 3rd11:01
spider-marioI am french but I use bépo11:01
spider-marioeven more fragmentation!11:01
Sfiet_Konstantinthey know that sailfish enthusiasts likes qwerty11:01
GentSirI'm in the US, plenty of qwerty users to cater to11:01
Sfiet_Konstantinso maybe one day :)11:01
Sfiet_Konstantinspider-mario: I'm alternating :)11:02
spider-marionice :)11:02
Sfiet_Konstantinbetween bépo and azerty11:02
Sfiet_Konstantinbecause while coding, I cannot use bépo11:02
Sfiet_Konstantintoo hard11:02
Sfiet_Konstantinhowever while writing, I'm using it11:02
Sfiet_Konstantinit is nice :)11:02
GentSirBut seriously, a real keyboard is impossible?11:02
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: well, for a startup11:02
Sfiet_Konstantinfor a 1st phone11:02
spider-mariowhat programming language is bépo not appropriate for, out of curiosity?11:02
Sfiet_Konstantintechnically, it is hard11:03
GentSirWell,not expecting it on the first lineup11:03
Sfiet_Konstantinspider-mario: just writing the brackets11:03
GentSirbut later on, it'd be a must11:03
Sfiet_Konstantin{}{}{} it is a bit hard11:03
Sfiet_Konstantinaltgr + wx11:03
Sfiet_Konstantinwoops, no that's for slashes11:03
spider-marioI find it easier than with azerty, actually11:03
Sfiet_Konstantinnot that easy11:03
spider-marioalt gr + (x c in azerty, y x in bépo)11:03
Sfiet_Konstantinspider-mario: did not practiced a lot11:03
Sfiet_Konstantinmaybe I will switch to full bepo one day11:04
spider-mariowhat might not be very convenient to type in bépo is <>11:04
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: latter, it is a must, indeed11:04
Sfiet_Konstantinspider-mario: agreed11:04
GentSirSomething like the N950 would be perfect11:05
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: no11:05
GentSirOf that form factor and style, not the exact hardware11:05
Sfiet_Konstantinlauta is way prettier :D11:05
GentSirOh, that is a nice device11:06
GentSirWhat is that?11:06
Sfiet_Konstantinbut well, I would love to see even better device11:07
Sfiet_Konstantinlike a different form factor et11:07
GentSirThose look cool11:07
GentSirWorking with ssh with a virtual keyboard is a pain, I'd love a real keyboard and all my screen to actually use11:08
GentSirand it's faster to type on a real keyboard overall11:08
spider-marionot covering the screen and tactile feedback and two big advantages of hardware keyboards11:09
Sfiet_Konstantinwell, the feedback on the N9 is pretty good11:10
Sfiet_Konstantinahowever, I agree about SSH11:10
GentSirhardware keyboards were mostly phased out by more responsive touchscreens11:11
Sfiet_Konstantinwould love to see a sort of cover that cover half of the screen and overlays hw kb on the touchscreen11:11
Sfiet_Konstantinbest of the two worlds11:11
GentSirI'm having trouble visualizing that11:16
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Sfiet_Konstantinhold your smarphone in portrait11:18
Sfiet_Konstantinadd a small cover at the bottom11:19
Sfiet_Konstantinthat simply covers the vkb11:19
Sfiet_Konstantinthat cover have physical keys that press the virtual keys11:19
GentSirstill reduces screen space, but i get the concept now11:19
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: yeah11:22
Sfiet_Konstantinbut if they launch the first smartphone as touch only11:22
Sfiet_Konstantinwhy not produce that kind of accessory11:23
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GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, I don't see any reason that isn't an option, Just seems very niche to me, very few people would bother.11:50
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: well, if people find it useful (and I'm sure it is) it might be less niche11:53
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, would probably be very cheap to manufacture as well11:54
GentSirBut I'd still prefer a full physical keyboard11:54
GentSirDid you see the CES demo of a screen that the surface could mold to actual shapes, and they demoed a raised keypad on a touchscreen? Now that's cool stuff11:55
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: no, but these kind of screens would be pretty nice11:56
Sfiet_KonstantinI would love to see what kind of screens will Jolla use11:56
Sfiet_Konstantinthey promised a new srceen technology11:56
GentSirProbably pretty standard stuff11:56
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: well, no11:56
YanielSfiet_Konstantin: source?11:57
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, I didn't see anything about that11:57
GentSirYou might have seen this before as well:
GentSirThere's also a company making an iPhone case with an eink display on the back of the device, so you can save a page there. That built into a device could have a lot of uses11:58
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: I have heard it from Marc Dillon itself so ...11:58
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: yeah, that Yota phone11:58
Sfiet_Konstantinnot fully convinced though11:58
Sfiet_KonstantinI prefer low power mode like on the N911:58
GentSirSfiet_Konstantin, wasn't saying you were wrong, I just hadn't seen it11:59
Sfiet_Konstantinone screen two usages11:59
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: I know, it was just in a private blogger meeting :P11:59
GentSirThat page in finnish?11:59
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: scroll to the end of the article11:59
Sfiet_Konstantinnope it is fr, but english at the end11:59
Sfiet_Konstantinscroll at the end of the article, the part about screen is at the end11:59
GentSirOh, good12:00
GentSirSadly, I can only read english12:00
Sfiet_Konstantinno prob12:00
GentSirIf I wasn't so tired I would have noticed that was french12:00
Sfiet_Konstantinthat article was made for english readers as well12:00
Sfiet_Konstantinbecause I think that that interview was worth sharing to everybody12:00
GentSirYes. English is the langua franca today12:01
GentSirThat's funny, because the french had to be translated to english12:01
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: :P yeah12:01
Sfiet_Konstantinwell, technically it was12:02
Sfiet_Konstantinenglish interview -> french article -> translated english article12:02
GentSirAh. I've heard learning a new language opens up a completely new way of thinking12:02
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GentSirMy best friend is fluent in arabic, and says there are some concepts that are easier to actually think about in arabic than english12:03
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: same with chinese12:03
GentSirI really should learn another language12:03
Sfiet_Konstantinand I have to acknowledge that I'm not writing the same sentences in fr and en12:03
GentSirUs americans aren't very culturally sensitive12:03
Sfiet_Konstantinand sometimes, I'm so used in talking in english that I'm forgetting some french formulations12:04
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: a bit sad12:04
GentSirI try my best12:04
GentSirBut I know I have prejudices simply from being raised around it12:05
GentSirThe world would be a much better place if everyone took a moment to actually think before they started talking, and to just tolerate other peoples lifestyles.12:06
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: not easy12:06
Sfiet_Konstantinhowever we should not talk about that here12:07
GentSirBack on topic12:07
Sfiet_Konstantineven if it is a very very interesting topic12:07
GentSirthanks for the link to that article12:07
GentSirI would love a n950 to use daily, it's not like I need the raw computing power of a brand new smartphone12:07
GentSirThey're hard to find though12:08
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: I got bored of the N95012:08
Sfiet_Konstantinit is a nice piece of hw12:08
Sfiet_Konstantinthe SW is nice as well12:08
Sfiet_Konstantinbut it happened that I finally used it as a N912:08
Sfiet_Konstantinno much using HWKB12:08
Sfiet_Konstantinand doing terminal stuff through SSH from computer12:09
GentSirI see them on  ebay once in awhile for like $150012:09
GentSirThe few devs that had them didn't sell them often12:09
Sfiet_Konstantintechnically it is forbidden to sell them12:09
GentSirI know that12:09
Sfiet_Konstantinand mine will never be sold12:09
GentSirBut people did anyway, even though legally they were loaned from nokia12:09
Sfiet_Konstantinbecause Nokia don't really care about them12:10
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Sfiet_Konstantinwindows phone, windows phone, windows phone everywhere12:10
GentSirI'm convinced there has to be boxes of the n950 and the phones after in boxes somewhere at nokia, forgotten and abandoned12:10
Sfiet_Konstantindon't think that there is much N950 left right now12:11
Sfiet_Konstantinthey gave most of them to devs i think12:11
GentSirI read there were 250 made12:11
Sfiet_Konstantinthere were more12:11
Sfiet_Konstantin250 was the first batch of donation12:11
Sfiet_Konstantinthey then gave 100 more12:11
Sfiet_Konstantinjust from meego.com12:11
Sfiet_Konstantinand after that there were ~10 for maemo coding competition12:11
Sfiet_Konstantinand there are others that were given though other channels12:12
GentSirAh, it's sad to think there are plenty of MeeGo and Maemo phones that never got into the hands of people who would've loved them12:12
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: new strategy12:12
Stskeepsthey're really not as great as you can imagine.. i'm moving to n9 as i'm tired of signal strength issues12:12
GentSirUgh, WP is a mess12:13
Sfiet_KonstantinStskeeps: thanks for supporting my point :)12:13
Sfiet_KonstantinWP is OK-ish12:13
Sfiet_Konstantinnothing compared to the power of Harmattan12:13
GentSirI actually liked the hardware12:13
Sfiet_KonstantinUI is is fluid though12:13
Sfiet_Konstantinnot me12:13
GentSirI've used a samsung WP7 device12:13
Sfiet_Konstantinthe 920 do not have that great HW12:13
GentSirSo I'm familiar with WP12:13
GentSirI didn't like it12:14
GentSirRight now I use a locked down CM1012:14
GentSirBut Sailfish looks very promising12:14
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: I played several times with android12:14
Sfiet_Konstantinnice, customizable12:14
GentSirSadly, I doubt the first phones will be available in the states12:14
Sfiet_Konstantinbut dependant of google12:14
Sfiet_Konstantinand quickly boring12:14
GentSirMy phone is completely removed from the google ecosystem12:15
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: available, I think (through the internet), distributed by carriers, forget about it12:15
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: and I don't like dalvik + java12:15
GentSirIf I could get an unlocked one that worked on a US carrier I'd buy one12:15
GentSirI tried to do a little android dev work, I don't like the dalvik + java setup either12:16
rashm2kStskeeps: don't move to n912:16
Sfiet_Konstantinrashm2k: why ?12:16
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rashm2kas much as I like my n9 its just too slow12:16
GentSirrashm2k, I plan to wait for a modern device12:16
rashm2kits v old tech now12:16
rashm2kgo for z10 insread12:17
Sfiet_Konstantinrashm2k: do you know who is Stskeeps ? :P12:17
Sfiet_Konstantinhead engineer of the mer project12:17
rashm2kz10 uses qt + qml12:17
Sfiet_KonstantinI think he knows HW (especially Jolla HW) enough to know what to do :P12:17
Sfiet_KonstantinZ10 is okish as well12:18
Sfiet_Konstantinit looks like N912:18
rashm2kI have the dev alpha b12:18
Sfiet_Konstantinif you want the successor to the N9 experience, Z10 is the way12:18
Sfiet_Konstantinif you want to have more innovation in UI and usage, better choose Sailfish device12:18
rashm2kIt's very close to the successor - but it just doesnt have that Nokia feel to it12:18
rashm2kThe n9 is beutiful device, OS is amazing12:19
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rashm2kregardless I have both the N9 and the dev alpha b I can compare12:21
rashm2kSo sailfish is out sometime this year?12:22
Sfiet_Konstantinrashm2k: Jolla device yeah12:22
rashm2kguessing some quad/octocore variant?12:22
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GentSirrashm2k, can I use my standard pgp keys for email on a z10?12:23
rashm2kI haven't even tried - not sure how to check12:23
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GentSirI actually use pgp a lot, it's an important feature for me.12:24
rashm2kdon't think it is:12:25
GentSirCan't it sideload android apps?12:25
rashm2kYes - but not all of the Android API is supported12:26
rashm2kSo the app you load might work - but not 100% guaranteed12:27
GentSirYeah, I use K-9 Mail on android with AGP12:27
GentSirI'd be willing to help implement that in in Sailfish if needed12:28
rashm2kMaybe you could just port it to BB10/Sailfish12:28
rashm2kIt's pretty easy i'm told to just port and android app12:29
GentSirThe K-9 dev might even do it12:29
rashm2kThere is already k9-mail on the Bb1012:29
rashm2kdownloading now12:29
GentSirOh? Is there any pgp support? Have to use AGP for it on android12:30
rashm2kstill downloading12:30
GentSirThe z10 is $200 for me on AT&T, the same I'd pay for a new android phone12:30
rashm2kIt's expensive me thinks12:30
GentSirI really want more of a "business" style phone12:30
rashm2kYou know how Android browser lags?12:31
GentSirYes, it's a pain12:31
rashm2kand causes the whole phone ot slow down?12:31
GentSirEven my fairly bloat free setup does it12:31
rashm2kThe bb10 doesn't12:31
GentSirWorst thing about android is UI lag12:31
rashm2kHonestly it so far the BB10 UI is totally fluid12:32
GentSirIf you give me an interface with zero lag, I'm willing to change12:32
rashm2kBest implementation of flash player I have seen on ANY device12:32
GentSirEh, flash is starting to die. Good riddance12:32
rashm2kTrue -  but not dead yet12:32
rashm2kOK k9 installed - seems to work ok12:33
GentSirk9 is the only mail app for android I can use pgp with12:35
rashm2kIt's a bit laggy and I just got a force close12:35
rashm2kBut it works quite well12:36
GentSirI'll lookup pgp on it12:36
GentSirAs I said, that is required12:36
GentSirBut it looks nice12:36
rashm2kNo issues so far, maybe force close was a one off12:37
GentSirperhaps, it happened12:38
rashm2kDev alpha doesn't have the final OS on it and only 1GB ram12:38
rashm2kNot quite a fair comparision to th z10, but if it works reasonably on dev alpha then should work much better on the Z1012:39
GentSiryou have a dev device?12:40
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GentSirDo you develop for BB10?12:40
rashm2kyes I have the dev device - why does it say APG not available?12:41
rashm2kdevelop for BB10 (porting my Meego ap)12:41
GentSirAPG = Android Privacy Guard. It's PGP for Android, I'd figure there's a implementation for BB10 though12:43
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GentSirrashm2k, what MeeGo app did you make?12:52
GentSirIsn't Sailfish/Nemo/Mer just Linux at its base?12:57
GentSirIf it is, it shouldn't be hard to implement proper pgp support12:57
rashm2kyes it is - I'm sure its just a case of compiling then providing a gui on top12:58
GentSirYeah, not too awfully hard12:59
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GentSirI actually made a new keypair to use for contributing to projects. The only pair I had was my voc schol web of trust keypair13:16
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lbtGentSir:;a=summary   gpg is in core13:19
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GentSirlbt, so pretty much all the work needed to have it really usable is to make a GUI on top of that? or a plugin for the mail app?13:21
GentSirUnless it's already integrated13:21
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GentSirlbt, it's already integrated or just needs a little interface work?15:17
lbtnone of the mail ui stuff is public yet15:19
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GentSirlbt, but will pgp be implemented in it, or is it planned to?15:30
GentSirI'd be all over a phone with proper security15:31
lbtGentSir: we really can't comment on things that aren't released - sorry15:31
GentSirThat's okay, it being in the core is good enough for me15:32
GentSirWasn't meaning to be rude15:32
GentSirThis is making me want to really dig into that sdk though15:33
lbtnp - it's not rude. It's just that we're not allowed to talk about it15:33
GentSirThank you for answering the questions you could though, it's very appreciated15:34
lbtsure - and most of the time I just don't know either - my focus is on the SDK and the Mer side15:35
GentSirI hope I'll be able to get one of the first devices released onto a US network15:35
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lbt*g* hope so15:36
GentSirLots of customers over here in the states...15:37
lbtthought you guys all had iphones already :D15:38
GentSirOh god, I would never use an iPhone!15:38
GentSirThat's a prime example of how much money americans like to toss around though15:38
GentSirThis is like a religion in suburban america:
lbtnb #jollamobile exists too - that's more of a place for discussing ( or speculating :) on Jolla activity15:39
lbtseems quiet atm though15:40
GentSirThanks for the tip, I shall join15:40
GentSirDidn't see that channel when I was looking for stuff on Sailfish15:40
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lbtfunny - I always thought that ^^ link referred to english culture15:40
GentSirIt's here in the states too15:41
GentSirI refuse to have a credit card, or incur any debt at all15:41
GentSirBut that's not a discussion for here15:42
GentSirThe sailfish SDK will be done downloading soon15:42
lbtyeah - I should go work on the next emulator15:42
GentSirAre there tutorials or guides of some sort packed in with it?15:42
lbtsome - we need more15:43
lbtwe're developing this in the open though15:43
lbtso feel free to contribute15:43
lbtI'm adding host-based networking so we can get the build-engine to deploy straight to the emulator15:44
GentSirNot sure how useful I'd be with my limited experience, but I'll certainly try something15:44
GentSirlbt, why does the SDK require Virtualbox for the emulator?16:04
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lbtit's a fully blown virtual machine emulation of the device16:05
GentSirIs it designed to be fairly beginner friendly?16:06
lbtyes - but it is still alpha - so it's lacking in docs and has some known issues16:07
GentSirEasier or harder than say, Android?16:07
Sfiet_KonstantinGentSir: easier ?16:08
lclcfor sure it's faster ;)16:08
Sfiet_KonstantinQML is easy16:08
lbtgood to hear - I'm not an android dev :)16:08
GentSirThere's not much slower than that dalvik/java mess16:08
GentSirI'd rather deal with the low level headaches in C++16:10
lbtif you let it Qt makes that easy16:11
GentSirOne feature I think would be cool, but would probably be third party16:12
GentSirBack in the day I had a Windows CE phone16:12
GentSirWell, Windows Mobile16:12
GentSirThe old version16:12
GentSirI could connect my phone to windows xp and text through a desktop application that interfaced with my phone16:12
GentSirI've never found anything like that on iOS or Android16:13
lbtshould be easy - ssh myphone send_sms --to 5551234 --mesg "Hey, make me coffee"16:14
lbthint - don't leave ssh open on your phone16:15
lbtalso, that's not written yet16:15
lbtbut you could probably do it today on Nemo on an N9 if you like16:15
GentSiryou're saying core apps/features will have a CLI on the backend?16:15
lbtnot exactly16:16
GentSirBut it'll be a service that's easy to access?16:16
lbtmore that it should be straightforward to use things like dbus from CLI to communicate with messaging16:16
GentSirI'd have a field day with that16:17
Sfiet_Konstantinlbt: any aegis like ?16:17
GentSirMaking that trivial would be very very cool, even if I have to write the desktop side code myself16:18
Sfiet_Konstantinso, if someone write a malicious app app, will there be a way to protect the user ?16:19
GentSirI'd presume that it'd be over ssh16:19
lbtSfiet_Konstantin: how is that handled on other platforms?16:19
Sfiet_Konstantinlbt: there is a manifest on BB10 IIRC16:19
Sfiet_Konstantindidn't touch other platform much16:20
lbtso apps ask permission to be able to send SMS ?16:20
GentSirlbt already hinted at ssh for it16:20
GentSirWhich is plenty secure if used right16:20
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Sfiet_Konstantinlbt: yeah16:22
lbtGentSir: you are able to write in C++ so anything goes protocol wise16:22
lbtSfiet_Konstantin: so when they ask, how do you determine if they are malicious ?16:22
lbtSfiet_Konstantin: nb .. this is a very valid and interesting discussion16:23
Sfiet_Konstantinif a wallpaper want to send SMS16:23
Sfiet_Konstantinthen there is a problem16:23
lbtindeed :)16:23
Sfiet_Konstantinor maybe you can have a log16:23
Sfiet_Konstantin"that SMS app did send one to somewhere"16:24
lbtthere has been some debate on Mer mailing list - and we need more discussion16:24
Sfiet_Konstantinor that wallpaper tried to connect to
GentSirlbt, debate about what?16:24
Sfiet_Konstantinlbt: i see16:24
lbtSfiet_Konstantin: also an app that reports or monitors cost services16:24
lbtGentSir: security/privacy controls16:24
lclcIs it already possible to simulate camera access? Add the functionality for an app to take a picutre?16:25
lbtlclc: we don't have that in the alpha16:25
GentSirI like how android does it. It explicitly states what access apps have at install time. If you're rooted, there are also utilities to block apps from having certain permissions.16:26
lbtlclc: I'd like to explore USB passthru from a webcam16:26
lbtlclc: what do you think?16:26
lbtGentSir: yep - it makes sense. We do need to discuss this more at the lower Mer levels too16:27
lclclbt: that would be cool16:27
lbtlclc: I've not done anything there yet - but would like to see results if someone explores it16:27
lbtso yell if you try and get anywhere!16:28
lclchuh I don't know if I've got the knowledge for that. But I will google how I could access a USB from virtual box.16:30
lclcATM I'm still learning that fancy QML stuff. It's hard to switch from the QWidgets for a normal developer. Great for an UI-designer but I've never liked that JS stuff16:32
GentSirI've never used JS...16:32
lbtlclc: it's a pretty good discipline - helps you focus on the ui/logic interface16:34
lbtGentSir: don't be scared of it - I barely used it before QML/Js - it's not the best language out there but it is a pragmatic choice16:35
lclcyes I like the idea of splitting UI & logic and I  hope one day we will see as many QML designers as HTML designers, that the Qt developer doesn't have to do the UI stuff anymore ;D16:36
GentSirlbt, JS is really only for interface stuff, right?16:36
GentSirand agreed, I've always split my logic/interface code, even in purely CLI programs16:36
lbtGentSir: well - the design intention is that js is for ui.  Have you *met* any developers?16:38
lbtwhat do you think the chances are that they'll port Doom3 to the JS inside a QML model?16:38
GentSirlbt, I've never met a programmer better than myself in person, and I'm not that good16:38
GentSirIt's a phone that geeks love, Quake is a requirement16:39
lbtOgre3D is on it already16:39
lbtthat's just on the emulator16:40
GentSirVery nice16:41
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lclclbt: Will there be a share/edit function in the image viewer?  As in android: After I made a picture and have a look at that picture I'm able to share or edit it with another programm through the button in the top rigth corner. I'd need something like that for my app-idea16:45
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Sfiet_Konstantinlclc: depends on devs16:49
Sfiet_Konstantinon you maybe16:49
lclcSfiet_Konstatin: As I saw that they already created the default image viewer (in the demo videos) I expect that one will be included. Anyway I though there doing all basic/starting/default apps by themself?16:50
lbtlclc: so I can't comment on the sailfish device apps. One of the SDK examples is a photo gallery so you can use that for a basis :)16:52
GentSirlclc, don't expect too much on a first release either16:52
GentSirRemember android version 1?16:52
lclcnope, didn't have one. Until Nexus 4 few months ago.16:55
GentSirThen you missed out on all the ugly of android16:55
GentSirI had a G116:55
GentSirSo,I just found out it is possible to "drive" the android SMS service remotely, but it pretty much requires writing a new messsaging app. That's all I'll say16:57
lclclbt: for using the code of the demo application in our own application we only have to put the copyright notice somewhere, apart from that I'm free to do with the code what I want?  like Apache?17:01
lbthmm good question - it should be licensed clearly17:02
lbtgrr - my dev version doesn't have the sample code in it so I can't easily check17:02
lclcYes it has some licence text there, but it's something homebrewed.   Actually it's quite clear, but Apache or MIT would have been easier since most people know these17:04
lbteww ...17:04
lbtI've had this myself - it would be nice if it said "BSD 2-Clause" or something17:06
lclcyes would be easier^^17:06
GentSirAs long as it's not GPL17:08
GentSiri love FOSS, but the GPL is awful17:09
GentSirlbt, the arguments weren't as simple as the example you gave, but you can send texts on android in a very similar manner to how you described17:28
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Sfiet_Konstantinping Morpog_Mobile21:31
Morpog_MobileSfiet_Konstantin: pong21:39
Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_Mobile: do you still have a link to the firefox browser on sailfish ?21:40
Sfiet_KonstantinSDK ?21:40
Sfiet_KonstantinI have some HW to be tested21:40
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Morpog_MobileSure, you can also ask rozhkov to do a new build21:41
Morpog_MobileOn mozilla irc #embedlite21:42
Morpog_MobileIt's an old build, but useable21:44
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Morpog_MobileU need 4 files from there21:44
Morpog_Mobileand you need to modifie the sh that starts the browser from desktop link21:47
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Morpog_Mobileadd -fullscreen to it21:47
Sfiet_Konstantinwill check that21:47
Sfiet_Konstantinbut let me play puzzle master21:47
Sfiet_Konstantinwill add that as a repo21:49
Sfiet_Konstantinwill be easier21:49
Sfiet_Konstantinthanks Morpog_Mobile :)21:55
Sfiet_Konstantininstalling right now :)21:55
Morpog_MobileYou're welcome21:55
Sfiet_KonstantinFYI, I finally managed to run Sailfish with HW accel on the iconia tab21:56
Sfiet_Konstantinand it is AWESOME !!21:56
Sfiet_Konstantinso smooth21:56
Sfiet_Konstantineven if the HW is old and abandonned21:56
Morpog_MobileMmmh me wants too :-)21:56
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Sfiet_Konstantinwith W8 laptops, you might be able to get some decent HW to run Mer / Nemo / Sailfish21:57
Morpog_MobileI stillhave the feeling that the first jolla hw will have a mobile atom cpu21:58
Sfiet_Konstantinnow a webbrowser :)21:59
Morpog_MobileU should ask rozhkov for a new build21:59
Morpog_MobileBetter ui on that21:59
Sfiet_Konstantinit is fast22:00
Sfiet_Konstantinfirefox is fast22:00
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Morpog_MobileOn harmattan too22:00
Morpog_MobileIpclite is awesome22:00
Morpog_MobileXul made firefox slow22:00
Sfiet_Konstantini see22:00
Sfiet_Konstantinmozembed do not use xul ?22:01
Morpog_MobileQml ui22:01
Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_Mobile: I'm not sure about atom cpu22:01
Sfiet_Konstantinpuzzlemaster is a game for tablet btw22:01
Sfiet_Konstantinit is awesome on Iconia22:01
Morpog_MobileI like it on my n9 too22:02
Sfiet_KonstantinI'm rather curious22:02
Sfiet_Konstantincan the iconia tab become a huge phone22:02
Sfiet_Konstantinhuge huge phone ?22:02
Morpog_MobileDoes it have a cellphone modem?22:02
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Sfiet_Konstantinbtw, i'm really surprised because accelerometer inside is managed22:03
Sfiet_Konstantinout of the box22:03
Sfiet_Konstantinmeego-terminal turns itself22:03
Morpog_MobileU should do a youtube video of that iconia tab with hw acceleration22:04
Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_Mobile: I will indeed22:04
Sfiet_Konstantinand I will write the tuto as well22:04
Morpog_MobileGet some more apps to showcase22:04
Morpog_MobileLike gpodder22:05
Sfiet_Konstantinand btw, so fast22:05
Sfiet_KonstantinSO FAST to boot22:05
Morpog_MobileAnd use ambiance changer ;-)22:05
Morpog_MobileThats fast22:06
Morpog_MobileHarmattan is like a turtle22:06
Sfiet_Konstantinhehe :)22:06
Sfiet_KonstantinI'm eagerly wating for Sailfish device22:07
Morpog_MobileWho is not? :-)22:07
Sfiet_Konstantinthese stuff, like hacking the iconia tab, they are just here for teasing us22:07
Morpog_MobileIt works22:08
Sfiet_KonstantinI bet the Jolla device is way more tastier22:08
Sfiet_Konstantinfunnier, prettier, more awesome22:08
Morpog_MobileI just hope the core apps are better thanonn922:08
fireglowwould sailfish run on a nexus 4, for example?22:09
Morpog_MobileTheoretically when arm based stuff is around22:09
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Morpog_MobileHw adaption is hard22:10
Sfiet_Konstantinit worked on GNEX22:12
Sfiet_Konstantinso not that hard then22:12
Morpog_MobileWith everything working?22:12
Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_Mobile: no22:12
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Morpog_MobileSee :)22:13
Sfiet_Konstantinif you want it to work22:13
Sfiet_Konstantinthen fight for it22:13
Sfiet_KonstantinI don't like HW adaptation22:13
Sfiet_Konstantinbut I wanted Sailfish SDK on iconia22:13
Morpog_MobileI just get a jolla device ;)22:13
Morpog_MobileYeah, cool stuff22:14
Sfiet_KonstantinMorpog_Mobile: :)22:14
Morpog_MobileI just don't own anything x86 based with touch22:14
Sfiet_Konstantini know22:14
Sfiet_Konstantinthat's the problem actually22:15
Morpog_MobileI'mlooking forward to sailfishos on my nexus 722:15
Sfiet_Konstantinoooh well, that's an easy adaptation22:15
Morpog_MobileAdaption is ready already22:15
Sfiet_Konstantinubuntu guys have done that22:15
Sfiet_Konstantinwhy not nemo sailfish22:16
Morpog_MobilePlasma and nemo runs on it22:16
Sfiet_Konstantinthen it is very easy22:16
Sfiet_Konstantinjust wait for arm22:16
Morpog_MobileI hope nemo adapts silica22:17
Morpog_MobileThen you woild have core aps from nemo im sailfish style22:17
Sfiet_KonstantinI don't know22:18
Sfiet_Konstantinnot sure at all22:18
Morpog_MobileDamn android vkb22:18
Sfiet_Konstantindon't even think so22:18
Sfiet_Konstantinaps ? :D22:18
Sfiet_KonstantinI'm waiting for Sailfish apps now22:19
Sfiet_Konstantinbecause Sailfish is just so pretty22:19
Morpog_MobileYou think they will open source them?22:19
Sfiet_Konstantinsilica ?22:20
Sfiet_Konstantinthe sailfish components ?22:20
Sfiet_Konstantinit is said that it will be oss22:20
Morpog_MobileSaiofish apps22:20
Sfiet_Konstantinsailfish core apps ?22:20
Morpog_MobileSilica yes22:20
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