Friday, 2013-05-24

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earmanwe need sailfishos smartTV00:24
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ljpsailfishos smarttv wrist watch!00:32
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BlackRabbitHello all.01:05
BlackRabbitHallo. Salut.01:05
BlackRabbitI have a question about Sailfish01:05
BlackRabbitanyone here?01:05
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BlackRabbitcan anyone tell me if sailfish supports true native C++ development?01:07
chriadamQt is a C++ framework and Sailfish OS supports Qt applications.01:10
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ljpwell.. none qwidget based01:20
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BlackRabbitoh , hello.01:28
BlackRabbitchriadam and ljp01:28
BlackRabbitI want to be very clear.01:29
BlackRabbitare you still there?01:29
BlackRabbitok. so I want to be clear.01:31
BlackRabbitI ask this same question about once every six months, and each time I get an answer, the person answering me plays tricks with words.01:31
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BlackRabbitso, IRC is good because there is no opportunity to play tricks with words. :)01:31
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BlackRabbitwhat I mean by "true native application"01:32
BlackRabbitright now, if I write a truly native C++ application on Ubuntu, and run it, it will run without any problems.01:32
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BlackRabbitif I decide to open a device driver (open/ioctl/close), I will not have any problems.01:32
BlackRabbitetc. etc.01:32
BlackRabbitI would like to know if this is true on Sailfish OS.01:33
BlackRabbitis it the same?01:33
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BlackRabbitwer kann mir helfen/01:37
ljpsure.. qt runs on it, qt is c++01:37
BlackRabbitwhat is your native language ljp?01:37
BlackRabbitok. I wanted to make sure that there was no problem with spoken language.01:38
BlackRabbitmine too.01:38
BlackRabbitI don't think that qt alone is sufficient to say that it is true native development.01:38
BlackRabbitI can create an OS using Linux that supports Qt, but does not support true native development.01:38
BlackRabbitI would like to know about the restrictions.01:38
BlackRabbitthe reason I ask this question is that every single other mobile OS has the same problem   - iOS, Android, ...WP8, Tizen, etc.01:39
BlackRabbitall of them (except iOS/WPI claim to be "open"), but when you look at the actual facts, you discover that they are highly restricted.01:39
ljpwhy is qt not 'true native development' ?01:40
BlackRabbitso I would like to know, if I write a Linux application that accesses a device driver, will my application work on Sailfish, or will it be blocked.01:40
BlackRabbitoh, simple. Let me give you an example.01:40
BlackRabbitLet's say you write a 10,000-line Qt application in C++.01:40
BlackRabbitI make an operating system called "TrueNativeOS"01:40
BlackRabbitthen I tell you that my TrueNativeOS will run your Qt-app, and I give you an SDK, etc....01:41
BlackRabbityou compile your app with my SDK, try it on one of my phones, and IT WORKS!01:41
BlackRabbitthen, when you look closer, you see that there are two possibilities:01:41
BlackRabbit1. the C++ code that you wrote is being compiled to Java byte code.01:41
BlackRabbitand I am actually running your app inside a JVM01:41
BlackRabbit2. the C++ code that you wrote is, indeed, being compiled to x86/ARM...etc.01:42
BlackRabbitand the CPU really is eating your C++ byte code. HOWEVER...the only thing that you can do is Qt-related stuff.01:42
BlackRabbitIf you try to do any other Linux Native Development, you cannot.01:42
BlackRabbitI am worried about situation #2.01:42
BlackRabbitI want to know if I write some code that accesses a device drive on Salfish, will it run or not?01:43
BlackRabbit(that has nothing to do with Qt, as you can see)01:43
ljpqt does not run in a jvm01:43
BlackRabbiti know that01:43
BlackRabbitI was just putting that out there for exposition. I am concerned about situation #2.01:43
BlackRabbitwhat about the device driver?01:44
BlackRabbitif I write an app on Ubuntu that access a device driver, my code will work.01:44
BlackRabbitIf I do the same with Sailfish, will it work?01:44
ljpwhy would a userland app want to control a device driver?01:44
BlackRabbitoh, there are many reasons.01:44
BlackRabbiti'm try to determine if Sailfish supports it.01:45
ljppretty certain you can do that in mer, so it's most likely possible in sailfish. but I am not aware of any security that may be on the device01:46
ljpother than normal unix permissions01:46
BlackRabbitI guess you already know that for Tizen, the answer is "no, it will not work."01:47
ljpwhich means you need to get root to access device drivers01:47
BlackRabbitwell sure.01:48
BlackRabbitwell...ok..I should be clear01:48
BlackRabbitlet me explain what I want01:48
BlackRabbitI want:01:48
BlackRabbit1. smartphone (hardware only)01:48
BlackRabbit2. OS [Linux is good]01:48
BlackRabbit3. If the OEM adds any features, whatever, fine, so long as those features/layers/whatever do not block my app01:49
BlackRabbitIf I take Windows Mobile, Windows 7, Linux, OS/2, AIX, Solaris, etc...01:49
BlackRabbitif I take any of those operating systems, I can01:49
BlackRabbit1. write program01:49
BlackRabbit2. put program on my web site01:50
BlackRabbit3. let one of my customers download the program and install it01:50
BlackRabbit#3 is the problem here01:50
BlackRabbitwith all mobile OS's, #3 is a huge problem01:50
BlackRabbitit is not true with Tizen that a customer can download my app, install it, just like they would do on Ubuntu01:50
BlackRabbitthey'd have to root the phone, etc.01:50
BlackRabbitfrom a simplistic point of view, I want a smartphone, with just the OS, and no other cruft01:51
BlackRabbitdoes that make sense?01:51
ljpnot sure what the package management system will be like, but the aim is to be open as possible01:51
BlackRabbitwell, sure...everyone is saying that01:52
BlackRabbit"be open as possible"01:52
BlackRabbitAndroid has been saying that for years.01:52
BlackRabbitbut right now, if I try that with Android, it will fail.01:52
BlackRabbitAndroid will say, "Nope, this is not an Android application."01:52
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ljpya, well. IMHO, android isnt linux01:52
BlackRabbitTizen will say, "Nope, this is not a Tizen application."01:52
BlackRabbitneither is Tizen I guess.01:53
BlackRabbitI looked at Mer's web site.01:53
BlackRabbitjust now.01:53
ljpdont know much about tizen, other than they claim to be from meego01:53
BlackRabbitI just red Mer overview. they say, "Primary customers are device manufacturers - not end users"01:54
BlackRabbit"We are creating an open platform that allows OEM to lock it down as they see fit."01:55
BlackRabbitmy gut feeling, right now, is that the answer is "no" for both Mer and Sailfish01:56
ljpyou can put mer on a number of devices and try it01:56
BlackRabbityea, someone told me the same thing about Tizen01:57
BlackRabbitthey kept trying to get me to download the SDK01:57
BlackRabbitI'm like, "Dude, we are both hard-core engineers."01:57
BlackRabbit"You know the answer already. Just tell me."01:57
BlackRabbithe wouldn't do it01:57
BlackRabbitthis was a rep for Tizen.01:57
BlackRabbittha's why I think the answer is "no" for Tizen01:58
BlackRabbitif the answer has been "yes", he simply would have told me.01:58
ljpmaybe. or maybe he didn't know, or couldn't say01:59
chriadamyou're conflating issues here, BlackRabbit.  Native development (that is, code you write gets compiled to machine code and run directly, rather than in some emulated envornment) is entirely separate concept to the security mechanisms implemented on the platform at the kernel level or permissions level.02:00
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chriadamyes, native code can run on Sailfish OS.  there's no emulation layer involved, when you compile a C++ application it gets compiled to the device arch's machine code.02:01
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chriadamas for security, that's a separate issue - and it depends on the OEM - when they release a device with Sailfish OS on it, they can (presumably) modify some things to disallow access to certain parts of the hardware, and so forth.02:02
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BlackRabbit@chriadam, that makes perfect sense.02:02
BlackRabbitI agree completely.02:02
BlackRabbitSo then, allow me to change my question a bit.02:02
BlackRabbitQuestion: Right now, is there any smartphone available that is going to run an OS where I can get both Native C++ code, as well as the same type of unrestricted access to the system-level components that I get on Linux/Windows/etc.02:03
BlackRabbitof course, assuming that the end-user allows the installation of my app.02:03
BlackRabbitand finally (this is very important)....02:03
BlackRabbitmy end-user does not have to root his device just to get my application onto it.02:04
BlackRabbitI'm trying to avoid having people who grow dandalions for a lviing having to root their phone just to run my app.02:05
chriadamI honestly don't know.  Most mass-market consumer devices don't like giving applications "free reign" because they have to protect their users from malicious applications, I think (although this isn't something I know much about).  But I guess something like OpenMoko / FIC Freerunner, etc, would be as open as you'd get.02:05
BlackRabbitI want the amount of "fricition" that they get while installing my application to be the same as they would get while trying to install on Ubuntu, iOS, or Windows02:06
BlackRabbiti see.02:06
chriadamon Harmattan your application could request security tokens (so when you install the app, the user has to say "yes, allow the device to access these things") and if the user allows it, then it would have access.02:06
chriadamso the user doesn't have to do anything special (just press a button on the UI), but the application author would have to do a lot of special things (include security manifest with their application, request appropriate security tokens, etc.  Aegis could be confusing to app developers, I guess).02:07
chriadamI think a lot of platforms do similar things.  eg, if they need access to the gps they have to request that capability.  that's how Android works, for example.02:07
BlackRabbityea...I've never done an Android app. took one look at what they were doing. nope!02:08
BlackRabbitjust checked out harmattan02:09
BlackRabbitI understand the sandboxing, etc. excuse.02:09
BlackRabbitit is a valid excuse.02:09
BlackRabbitbut I think there is a very large market for what is basically a PC-model.02:09
BlackRabbitWild Wild West of Computing, if you will.02:10
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BlackRabbityes, you will get viruses, etc. and no, it will not be for everyone.02:10
BlackRabbitbut there is still a market for it. and viruses can be mitigated with same digital signature techniques etc. that are used now.02:10
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BlackRabbitwhile the security problem is a valid excuse for sandboxing, I think it would naive to not point out that Google/etc. benefit from the "customer stickiness" that comes with Android-type sandboxing.02:11
BlackRabbit(developer stickiness, rather)02:12
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chriadamI guess like I said, it's up to whoever ships the device02:13
BlackRabbityea. what puzzles me is why a group of people like us haven't done it yet.02:13
BlackRabbitit seems that, every time there is an announcement for a "truly open" platform, it always gets locked-down in this way.02:14
chriadamit wouldn't be too difficult to get something up and running, using mer+nemo as a base, for example02:14
BlackRabbitso as you understand it, mer is actually open (in the way I described)?02:15
chriadambut creating a beautiful, emotional smartphone user experience is... really difficult.  and integrating software + hardware into a great device is really really really difficult02:15
chriadamand that costs a lot of money02:15
chriadamBlackRabbit: well, it's just linux with some libraries added.  and it's all open source, so you can change whatever you like.  I don't know what security model it uses, personally - that's not really my area unfortunately.  but if it has one, I'm sure you can disable it.02:15
BlackRabbityeah see..that won't work.02:16
BlackRabbitproblem is not me.02:16
BlackRabbit(I hack OS's during the day)02:16
BlackRabbitthe problem is my customer.02:16
BlackRabbitthere are a gazillion smartphones on the market.02:16
BlackRabbitsome for as low as $50 as you know.02:16
BlackRabbitand not a single one of them, even though they are running Android...02:17
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BlackRabbitwill allow my customer to install my app without requirnig me to be on phone with my customer for 6 hours straight.02:17
BlackRabbitI find that odd.02:17
BlackRabbityou would think there would be at least one straight Linux + hardware platform out there.02:17
BlackRabbitput out by major OEM02:17
BlackRabbitso that it can be produced in volume, etc.02:18
ljpoperators dont want that02:18
BlackRabbitand so an app developer could point to it tell his customer, "Use that smartphone."02:18
BlackRabbitthank you@jlp02:18
BlackRabbitI know.02:18
BlackRabbitVerizon, in particular, does not want that.02:18
BlackRabbitsomeone should make that.02:19
BlackRabbitI know a company that will pay $320,000 roughly for that.02:19
BlackRabbitif you prove to them that you are going to give them that.02:19
BlackRabbitfixed cost, not recurring.02:19
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BlackRabbitwell, thanks guys.02:26
chriadamnp - good luck with it02:27
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MFaro-Tusinohappy friday05:52
chriadamgday by the way :-)05:53
MFaro-Tusinohey chris05:53
chriadamhow'd the meetup / celebrations go in Sydney?05:54
chriadamhopefully there was some enthusiasm for it?05:54
MFaro-TusinoEnded up just being me, a beer and the lifestream :p Everyone who got in touch were from Melbourne :/05:54
chriadamah true.  I wonder what we can do to improve the visibility of Jolla in .au... I wonder if there are many mobile-dev meetups which might like to learn about the SDK and the opportunity which Sailfish OS represents05:56
MFaro-TusinoI've been thinking the same thing. Not many of my classmates in Software Engineering even use (let alone know of) Qt - They all just use Objective C/Java05:57
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locusfhmm I have an include to Python.h and it exists in /usr/include/python2.7 in Mer SDK, I have also added it to INCLUDEPATH but I still get  fatal error: Python.h: No such file or directory07:07
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locusfsame thing with boost-python, I have it installed via boost-devel in Mer SDK and it still can't find the header07:48
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niweberJolla should have had a booth at Linuxtag in Berlin08:09
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locusfhmm why can't I add a custom Mer device which would get its IP address from my local network?10:16
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peterhull90Hi all. Can I ask a quick question about updates to the SDK?10:38
peterhull90I'm getting an error accessing
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peterhull90Is this known about?10:39
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Nicd-iirc the SDK's update functionality does not work yet10:43
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Sfiet_KonstantinNicd-: is not implemented yet10:44
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peterhull90OK, thanks Nicd and Sfiet_Konstantin11:03
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lbtpetokeksi: the alpha SDK only really supports changing the target to add new devel packages12:12
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petokeksilbt: good to know12:29
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lbtsorry petokeksi - I meant peterhull90 but he left12:38
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