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| earman | we need sailfishos smartTV | 00:24 |
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| ljp | sailfishos smarttv wrist watch! | 00:32 |
| earman | yeah | 00:34 |
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| BlackRabbit | Hello all. | 01:05 |
| BlackRabbit | Hallo. Salut. | 01:05 |
| BlackRabbit | I have a question about Sailfish | 01:05 |
| BlackRabbit | anyone here? | 01:05 |
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| BlackRabbit | can anyone tell me if sailfish supports true native C++ development? | 01:07 |
| chriadam | yes. | 01:09 |
| chriadam | Qt is a C++ framework and Sailfish OS supports Qt applications. | 01:10 |
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| ljp | well.. none qwidget based | 01:20 |
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| ljp | non | 01:20 |
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| BlackRabbit | salut | 01:28 |
| BlackRabbit | oh , hello. | 01:28 |
| BlackRabbit | chriadam and ljp | 01:28 |
| BlackRabbit | I want to be very clear. | 01:29 |
| BlackRabbit | are you still there? | 01:29 |
| ljp | yup | 01:30 |
| BlackRabbit | ok. so I want to be clear. | 01:31 |
| BlackRabbit | I ask this same question about once every six months, and each time I get an answer, the person answering me plays tricks with words. | 01:31 |
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| BlackRabbit | so, IRC is good because there is no opportunity to play tricks with words. :) | 01:31 |
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| BlackRabbit | what I mean by "true native application" | 01:32 |
| BlackRabbit | right now, if I write a truly native C++ application on Ubuntu, and run it, it will run without any problems. | 01:32 |
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| BlackRabbit | if I decide to open a device driver (open/ioctl/close), I will not have any problems. | 01:32 |
| BlackRabbit | etc. etc. | 01:32 |
| BlackRabbit | I would like to know if this is true on Sailfish OS. | 01:33 |
| BlackRabbit | is it the same? | 01:33 |
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| BlackRabbit | wer kann mir helfen/ | 01:37 |
| ljp | sure.. qt runs on it, qt is c++ | 01:37 |
| BlackRabbit | what is your native language ljp? | 01:37 |
| ljp | english | 01:37 |
| BlackRabbit | ok. I wanted to make sure that there was no problem with spoken language. | 01:38 |
| BlackRabbit | mine too. | 01:38 |
| BlackRabbit | I don't think that qt alone is sufficient to say that it is true native development. | 01:38 |
| BlackRabbit | I can create an OS using Linux that supports Qt, but does not support true native development. | 01:38 |
| BlackRabbit | I would like to know about the restrictions. | 01:38 |
| BlackRabbit | the reason I ask this question is that every single other mobile OS has the same problem - iOS, Android, ...WP8, Tizen, etc. | 01:39 |
| BlackRabbit | all of them (except iOS/WPI claim to be "open"), but when you look at the actual facts, you discover that they are highly restricted. | 01:39 |
| ljp | why is qt not 'true native development' ? | 01:40 |
| BlackRabbit | so I would like to know, if I write a Linux application that accesses a device driver, will my application work on Sailfish, or will it be blocked. | 01:40 |
| BlackRabbit | oh, simple. Let me give you an example. | 01:40 |
| BlackRabbit | Let's say you write a 10,000-line Qt application in C++. | 01:40 |
| BlackRabbit | I make an operating system called "TrueNativeOS" | 01:40 |
| BlackRabbit | then I tell you that my TrueNativeOS will run your Qt-app, and I give you an SDK, etc.... | 01:41 |
| BlackRabbit | you compile your app with my SDK, try it on one of my phones, and IT WORKS! | 01:41 |
| BlackRabbit | then, when you look closer, you see that there are two possibilities: | 01:41 |
| BlackRabbit | 1. the C++ code that you wrote is being compiled to Java byte code. | 01:41 |
| BlackRabbit | and I am actually running your app inside a JVM | 01:41 |
| BlackRabbit | 2. the C++ code that you wrote is, indeed, being compiled to x86/ARM...etc. | 01:42 |
| BlackRabbit | and the CPU really is eating your C++ byte code. HOWEVER...the only thing that you can do is Qt-related stuff. | 01:42 |
| BlackRabbit | If you try to do any other Linux Native Development, you cannot. | 01:42 |
| BlackRabbit | I am worried about situation #2. | 01:42 |
| BlackRabbit | I want to know if I write some code that accesses a device drive on Salfish, will it run or not? | 01:43 |
| BlackRabbit | (that has nothing to do with Qt, as you can see) | 01:43 |
| ljp | qt does not run in a jvm | 01:43 |
| BlackRabbit | i know that | 01:43 |
| BlackRabbit | I was just putting that out there for exposition. I am concerned about situation #2. | 01:43 |
| BlackRabbit | what about the device driver? | 01:44 |
| BlackRabbit | if I write an app on Ubuntu that access a device driver, my code will work. | 01:44 |
| BlackRabbit | If I do the same with Sailfish, will it work? | 01:44 |
| ljp | why would a userland app want to control a device driver? | 01:44 |
| BlackRabbit | oh, there are many reasons. | 01:44 |
| BlackRabbit | i'm try to determine if Sailfish supports it. | 01:45 |
| ljp | pretty certain you can do that in mer, so it's most likely possible in sailfish. but I am not aware of any security that may be on the device | 01:46 |
| ljp | other than normal unix permissions | 01:46 |
| BlackRabbit | I guess you already know that for Tizen, the answer is "no, it will not work." | 01:47 |
| ljp | which means you need to get root to access device drivers | 01:47 |
| BlackRabbit | well sure. | 01:48 |
| BlackRabbit | well...ok..I should be clear | 01:48 |
| BlackRabbit | let me explain what I want | 01:48 |
| BlackRabbit | I want: | 01:48 |
| BlackRabbit | 1. smartphone (hardware only) | 01:48 |
| BlackRabbit | 2. OS [Linux is good] | 01:48 |
| BlackRabbit | 3. If the OEM adds any features, whatever, fine, so long as those features/layers/whatever do not block my app | 01:49 |
| BlackRabbit | If I take Windows Mobile, Windows 7, Linux, OS/2, AIX, Solaris, etc... | 01:49 |
| BlackRabbit | if I take any of those operating systems, I can | 01:49 |
| BlackRabbit | 1. write program | 01:49 |
| BlackRabbit | 2. put program on my web site | 01:50 |
| BlackRabbit | 3. let one of my customers download the program and install it | 01:50 |
| BlackRabbit | #3 is the problem here | 01:50 |
| BlackRabbit | with all mobile OS's, #3 is a huge problem | 01:50 |
| BlackRabbit | it is not true with Tizen that a customer can download my app, install it, just like they would do on Ubuntu | 01:50 |
| BlackRabbit | they'd have to root the phone, etc. | 01:50 |
| BlackRabbit | from a simplistic point of view, I want a smartphone, with just the OS, and no other cruft | 01:51 |
| BlackRabbit | does that make sense? | 01:51 |
| ljp | not sure what the package management system will be like, but the aim is to be open as possible | 01:51 |
| BlackRabbit | well, sure...everyone is saying that | 01:52 |
| BlackRabbit | "be open as possible" | 01:52 |
| ljp | :) | 01:52 |
| BlackRabbit | Android has been saying that for years. | 01:52 |
| BlackRabbit | but right now, if I try that with Android, it will fail. | 01:52 |
| BlackRabbit | Android will say, "Nope, this is not an Android application." | 01:52 |
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| ljp | ya, well. IMHO, android isnt linux | 01:52 |
| BlackRabbit | Tizen will say, "Nope, this is not a Tizen application." | 01:52 |
| BlackRabbit | right | 01:53 |
| BlackRabbit | neither is Tizen I guess. | 01:53 |
| ljp | heh | 01:53 |
| BlackRabbit | I looked at Mer's web site. | 01:53 |
| BlackRabbit | just now. | 01:53 |
| ljp | dont know much about tizen, other than they claim to be from meego | 01:53 |
| BlackRabbit | I just red Mer overview. they say, "Primary customers are device manufacturers - not end users" | 01:54 |
| BlackRabbit | translation: | 01:54 |
| BlackRabbit | "We are creating an open platform that allows OEM to lock it down as they see fit." | 01:55 |
| BlackRabbit | my gut feeling, right now, is that the answer is "no" for both Mer and Sailfish | 01:56 |
| ljp | you can put mer on a number of devices and try it | 01:56 |
| BlackRabbit | yea, someone told me the same thing about Tizen | 01:57 |
| BlackRabbit | they kept trying to get me to download the SDK | 01:57 |
| BlackRabbit | I'm like, "Dude, we are both hard-core engineers." | 01:57 |
| BlackRabbit | "You know the answer already. Just tell me." | 01:57 |
| BlackRabbit | he wouldn't do it | 01:57 |
| BlackRabbit | this was a rep for Tizen. | 01:57 |
| BlackRabbit | tha's why I think the answer is "no" for Tizen | 01:58 |
| BlackRabbit | if the answer has been "yes", he simply would have told me. | 01:58 |
| ljp | maybe. or maybe he didn't know, or couldn't say | 01:59 |
| chriadam | you're conflating issues here, BlackRabbit. Native development (that is, code you write gets compiled to machine code and run directly, rather than in some emulated envornment) is entirely separate concept to the security mechanisms implemented on the platform at the kernel level or permissions level. | 02:00 |
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| chriadam | yes, native code can run on Sailfish OS. there's no emulation layer involved, when you compile a C++ application it gets compiled to the device arch's machine code. | 02:01 |
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| chriadam | as for security, that's a separate issue - and it depends on the OEM - when they release a device with Sailfish OS on it, they can (presumably) modify some things to disallow access to certain parts of the hardware, and so forth. | 02:02 |
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| BlackRabbit | @chriadam, that makes perfect sense. | 02:02 |
| BlackRabbit | I agree completely. | 02:02 |
| BlackRabbit | So then, allow me to change my question a bit. | 02:02 |
| BlackRabbit | Question: Right now, is there any smartphone available that is going to run an OS where I can get both Native C++ code, as well as the same type of unrestricted access to the system-level components that I get on Linux/Windows/etc. | 02:03 |
| BlackRabbit | of course, assuming that the end-user allows the installation of my app. | 02:03 |
| BlackRabbit | and finally (this is very important).... | 02:03 |
| BlackRabbit | my end-user does not have to root his device just to get my application onto it. | 02:04 |
| BlackRabbit | I'm trying to avoid having people who grow dandalions for a lviing having to root their phone just to run my app. | 02:05 |
| chriadam | I honestly don't know. Most mass-market consumer devices don't like giving applications "free reign" because they have to protect their users from malicious applications, I think (although this isn't something I know much about). But I guess something like OpenMoko / FIC Freerunner, etc, would be as open as you'd get. | 02:05 |
| BlackRabbit | I want the amount of "fricition" that they get while installing my application to be the same as they would get while trying to install on Ubuntu, iOS, or Windows | 02:06 |
| BlackRabbit | i see. | 02:06 |
| chriadam | on Harmattan your application could request security tokens (so when you install the app, the user has to say "yes, allow the device to access these things") and if the user allows it, then it would have access. | 02:06 |
| chriadam | so the user doesn't have to do anything special (just press a button on the UI), but the application author would have to do a lot of special things (include security manifest with their application, request appropriate security tokens, etc. Aegis could be confusing to app developers, I guess). | 02:07 |
| chriadam | I think a lot of platforms do similar things. eg, if they need access to the gps they have to request that capability. that's how Android works, for example. | 02:07 |
| BlackRabbit | yea...I've never done an Android app. took one look at what they were doing. nope! | 02:08 |
| BlackRabbit | just checked out harmattan | 02:09 |
| BlackRabbit | I understand the sandboxing, etc. excuse. | 02:09 |
| BlackRabbit | it is a valid excuse. | 02:09 |
| BlackRabbit | but I think there is a very large market for what is basically a PC-model. | 02:09 |
| BlackRabbit | Wild Wild West of Computing, if you will. | 02:10 |
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| BlackRabbit | yes, you will get viruses, etc. and no, it will not be for everyone. | 02:10 |
| BlackRabbit | but there is still a market for it. and viruses can be mitigated with same digital signature techniques etc. that are used now. | 02:10 |
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| BlackRabbit | while the security problem is a valid excuse for sandboxing, I think it would naive to not point out that Google/etc. benefit from the "customer stickiness" that comes with Android-type sandboxing. | 02:11 |
| BlackRabbit | (developer stickiness, rather) | 02:12 |
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| chriadam | I guess like I said, it's up to whoever ships the device | 02:13 |
| BlackRabbit | yea. what puzzles me is why a group of people like us haven't done it yet. | 02:13 |
| BlackRabbit | it seems that, every time there is an announcement for a "truly open" platform, it always gets locked-down in this way. | 02:14 |
| chriadam | it wouldn't be too difficult to get something up and running, using mer+nemo as a base, for example | 02:14 |
| BlackRabbit | hmm... | 02:14 |
| BlackRabbit | so as you understand it, mer is actually open (in the way I described)? | 02:15 |
| chriadam | but creating a beautiful, emotional smartphone user experience is... really difficult. and integrating software + hardware into a great device is really really really difficult | 02:15 |
| chriadam | and that costs a lot of money | 02:15 |
| chriadam | BlackRabbit: well, it's just linux with some libraries added. and it's all open source, so you can change whatever you like. I don't know what security model it uses, personally - that's not really my area unfortunately. but if it has one, I'm sure you can disable it. | 02:15 |
| BlackRabbit | yeah see..that won't work. | 02:16 |
| BlackRabbit | problem is not me. | 02:16 |
| BlackRabbit | (I hack OS's during the day) | 02:16 |
| BlackRabbit | the problem is my customer. | 02:16 |
| BlackRabbit | there are a gazillion smartphones on the market. | 02:16 |
| BlackRabbit | some for as low as $50 as you know. | 02:16 |
| BlackRabbit | and not a single one of them, even though they are running Android... | 02:17 |
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| BlackRabbit | will allow my customer to install my app without requirnig me to be on phone with my customer for 6 hours straight. | 02:17 |
| BlackRabbit | I find that odd. | 02:17 |
| BlackRabbit | you would think there would be at least one straight Linux + hardware platform out there. | 02:17 |
| BlackRabbit | put out by major OEM | 02:17 |
| BlackRabbit | so that it can be produced in volume, etc. | 02:18 |
| ljp | operators dont want that | 02:18 |
| BlackRabbit | and so an app developer could point to it tell his customer, "Use that smartphone." | 02:18 |
| BlackRabbit | thank you@jlp | 02:18 |
| BlackRabbit | :) | 02:18 |
| BlackRabbit | I know. | 02:18 |
| BlackRabbit | Verizon, in particular, does not want that. | 02:18 |
| BlackRabbit | someone should make that. | 02:19 |
| BlackRabbit | I know a company that will pay $320,000 roughly for that. | 02:19 |
| BlackRabbit | if you prove to them that you are going to give them that. | 02:19 |
| BlackRabbit | fixed cost, not recurring. | 02:19 |
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| BlackRabbit | well, thanks guys. | 02:26 |
| chriadam | np - good luck with it | 02:27 |
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| iekku | morning | 04:49 |
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| dm8tbr | moaning | 04:59 |
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| MFaro-Tusino | happy friday | 05:52 |
| chriadam | indeed! | 05:53 |
| chriadam | gday by the way :-) | 05:53 |
| MFaro-Tusino | hey chris | 05:53 |
| chriadam | how'd the meetup / celebrations go in Sydney? | 05:54 |
| chriadam | hopefully there was some enthusiasm for it? | 05:54 |
| MFaro-Tusino | Ended up just being me, a beer and the lifestream :p Everyone who got in touch were from Melbourne :/ | 05:54 |
| MFaro-Tusino | *livestream | 05:55 |
| chriadam | ah true. I wonder what we can do to improve the visibility of Jolla in .au... I wonder if there are many mobile-dev meetups which might like to learn about the SDK and the opportunity which Sailfish OS represents | 05:56 |
| MFaro-Tusino | I've been thinking the same thing. Not many of my classmates in Software Engineering even use (let alone know of) Qt - They all just use Objective C/Java | 05:57 |
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| locusf | hmm I have an include to Python.h and it exists in /usr/include/python2.7 in Mer SDK, I have also added it to INCLUDEPATH but I still get fatal error: Python.h: No such file or directory | 07:07 |
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| locusf | same thing with boost-python, I have it installed via boost-devel in Mer SDK and it still can't find the header | 07:48 |
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| niweber | Jolla should have had a booth at Linuxtag in Berlin | 08:09 |
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| locusf | hmm why can't I add a custom Mer device which would get its IP address from my local network? | 10:16 |
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| peterhull90 | Hi all. Can I ask a quick question about updates to the SDK? | 10:38 |
| peterhull90 | I'm getting an error accessing http://jolla.cachefly.net/SailfishOSSDK/alpha/repository/windows | 10:39 |
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| peterhull90 | Is this known about? | 10:39 |
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| Nicd- | iirc the SDK's update functionality does not work yet | 10:43 |
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| Sfiet_Konstantin | Nicd-: is not implemented yet | 10:44 |
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| peterhull90 | OK, thanks Nicd and Sfiet_Konstantin | 11:03 |
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| lbt | petokeksi: the alpha SDK only really supports changing the target to add new devel packages | 12:12 |
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| petokeksi | lbt: good to know | 12:29 |
| petokeksi | ??? | 12:29 |
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| lbt | sorry petokeksi - I meant peterhull90 but he left | 12:38 |
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