Wednesday, 2014-01-29

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Abby22 I give you some pictures. I hope you like!
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EztranY'know, according to's logs, someone clicked that from the logs.00:48
EztranIRC logs, that is. I mean, seriously?00:49
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B-ZaRwrong window :D06:16
B-ZaRwell, have a cat06:17
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Nicd-people knowledgeable about SSL certificates here?08:38
Nicd-what information would I need to show to a user so they can verify the correctness of a certificate?08:39
Nicd-e.g. issuer, issue date, expiry date, public key?08:39
Nicd-related, what information would I need to store so the app can automatically verify the certificate next time?08:39
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stephgNicd-: well there should be the chain of trust, i.e. connected to a CA08:41
stephgthe user can't really 'verify' anything08:41
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stephgbut yeah the CN/issuer/expiry/fingerprint08:42
Nicd-in this case the certificates would mostly be self-signed08:42
stephgwell in that case yeah as you suggest08:42
specialNicd-: the canonical piece of information is the certificate digest. That's what you use to verify it, and that's what the user can most securely confirm08:43
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Nicd-special: in Qt terms would that be cert.publicKey().toPem()? where cert is a QSslCertificate08:43
specialQSslCertificate has a digest method08:43
Nicd-or more accurately cert.publicKey()08:43
special(but use something other than md5 with it)08:44
Nicd-too easy to collide?08:44
Yaniel'there is an app for that'08:44
specialotherwise: if you use subject names at all, you must display them. I'm guessing you don't. Display the reason for the certificate failing trust normally.08:45
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Nicd-the issue date / expiry date / canonical name / digest combo is also what I would store to verify the cert automatically next time?08:46
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specialdigest is sufficient for checking that the certificate is the same one you accepted before08:46
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Nicd-ok, thanks for the help special :)08:49
Nicd-so is there a usual convention for a digest algorithm? other than md508:50
specialSHA1 is most common, SHA256/SHA512 are stronger08:50
stephgboo the chain on my bike is broken :(08:52
YanielI vote for SHA256 in this case08:52
specialthat's probably what I would use.08:53
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Nicd-there's SHA3-256 too, is that widely available in tools (because they need the digest on the server side as well to really check)?08:54
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specialIt matters if your user is trying to compare the digest to a known-good value. That kind of user is ..rare, to say the least08:56
specialI'd still avoid displaying it in SHA3 just because nothing else does.08:56
Nicd-I know users are stupid but this app is of course mainly for myself, and I want to check the digest08:57
Nicd-usually I only check that the beginning and end look the same though... :P08:57
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Nicd-maybe I'll make the hash configurable some time08:57
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specialif you check the first 5 and last 5 characters, you've got 40 bits of security ;)08:58
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Nicd-I'll make it pop up a dialog if cert verification fails and make it mandatory to scroll to the bottom to read all the information09:00
Nicd-of course that won't make anyone actually read it but maybe it might make someone at least think twice before skipping it09:01
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speciallots of different opinions on that topic09:02
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artemmaIf I am thinking about opening the app code for transparency purposes only, i.e. for anybody to be able to verify there's no NSA backdoor or whatever, but I do not want to give any rights to derive from the code or actually use the app without getting it from app store (beyond the security/privacy study purposes), what would be a license for me?09:26
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artemmaor any pointers to look at?09:26
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kaltsinot possible with any license09:28
kaltsiif you put the code out there there's nothing you can do about it09:28
* artemma thinks the world was easier when opening/closing code was about money and artributions/fame only. It became more complex with the privacy/security concerns09:28
kaltsiyou have to write your own license, which of course doesn't guarantee that anyone is going to honor it09:28
artemmakaltsi: sure technically people can grab the code and do with it whatever, I only want to make it clear that they are absolutely not allowed to do it beyond security/privacy studies09:29
kaltsiI'm not aware of such license out there.. hmm09:29
artemmaor would old "all rights reserved" be good enough?09:29
special"all rights reserved" may be sufficient, depending on the country09:29
Nicd-code is copyrighted by default, no licence means nobody can legally use it09:30
walokraisn't all proprietary software more or lessa like that09:30
kaltsiproprietary software usually means there's no source available09:30
walokrae.g. atlassian provides sources for paying customers09:30
ppI've had source code access (someone probably did an nda, and I was covered through employment)09:30
ppwhere usage was in general for research purposes only09:31
Nicd-artemma: if you don't want anyone to do anything with it, leave it without a licence and add a copyright statement for clarity09:31
Nicd-that's all you can do09:31
kaltsithose are a bit different cases.. nda's or paid software09:31
artemmayou know, in general I am not much about giving people everything my apps have competitive advantage with (I share some parts to community, but not the coolest tricks), now after all this NSA story I am thinking it would be good if people could check there's nothing like that in the app, but that's it09:31
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artemmaNicd-: no license at all or "all rights reserved" wouldn't give even a right for security/privacy studies, would it?09:32
ppno reason source couldn't be under "you can download but you may only read the source and compile it to verify my binaries are equivalent"09:32
specialartemma: fwiw, releasing source isn't especially helpful on that front either. Difficult to verify that your binaries match your source.09:32
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elenrili wonder what is your motivation for doing that09:33
elenrilthe app is free, isn't it?09:33
kontioartemma: "all rights reserved" is obsolete...
artemmaspecial: I don't mind providing a proper build sequence, MD5 verifiable hashes or whatever is needed to check that source compiles into same binary. I only want to limit it to privacy/security checks only09:33
specialreproducable builds are hard.09:34
elenrili never understdood why are people doing closed-source freeware09:34
artemmakontio: thanks, I'll check it out09:34
Nicd-artemma: you can't deny reading the source. but if you want people to be able to compile it, you'd need to specify that separately09:34
Nicd-artemma: of course no one will ever know if they compiled it and didn't share with anyone09:34
artemmaelenril: I'll get you acqauinted with the concept of becoming famous and special one day :) Maybe with the idea of changing into a paid model too09:35
artemmaI am not going to fight with the technical possibility of stealing the code, it's impossible anyway. I only want to make it clear it's not allowed09:35
elenrili'm yet to hear about programs that made someone rich and famous by switching from freeware to a closed source09:36
Nicd-artemma: I would put up a description which states the code is © artemma and only there for private studying purposes09:36
elenrilimo it's much more realistic to earn money by providing paid support/features on request for your awesome opensource program09:36
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specialwriting OSS until someone starts paying you to write more OSS is a nice way too ;)09:37
artemmaelenril: why are we talking about swithcing from free to closed suddenly? First: these are two ortogonal concepts, not different sides of a scale. Two: it has nothing to do with my question09:37
elenriljust wondering why you want to do it09:38
elenrilanyway, afaik you can do it legally in most countries09:38
artemmaspecial: reproducieable builds.. I am not eager to walk extra miles to provide these, but maybe there happens to be a ready way. Like if I use same public OBS to build app store version as I recommend in public build instructions09:38
elenrilbut it won't be very engorceable09:38
artemmaelenril: check my first message in this chat. I want [interested] people to be able to verify there's no extra tracking in my apps, thats it09:39
artemmaeverything else is the ideas on how to reach this goal09:39
elenrilwell as has already been said -- the user can't really verify anything without compiling and running his own version09:42
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kaltsiyes, it's always a matter of faith09:49
kaltsior trust would be a better word09:49
artemmaI don't mind at all for people to be able to build the code and verify it results in the same binary. As long as [at least officially] it is done for verification purposes only, not for actual use09:50
elenrilthe line between reading and running is quite thin09:52
elenrile.g. the law here only talks about 'using the work'09:52
elenrilso i think a 'read but not run' licence would not be legally enforceable in some places09:53
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jukeis there some interface for asking the os version?11:50
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jukei haven't seen anything that would return sailfish os version number11:51
artemmaI am not sure Sailfish has a concept of versions at all..11:51
pp /etc/system-release or whatnot?11:52
artemmathat is besides some git commit number11:52
jukeabout product says: for kaajanlampi11:52
jukelsb_release says Mer release 0.201111:52
w00tsee /etc/os-release11:52
WntThe SDK's RPM validator warns about my QML files being executable. How can I remove the execute bits from them? In the project folder on my filesystem they are not executable. I'm running the SDK on Linux11:55
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WntI guess the executability of QML files is not yet enforced in the Harbour QA process?11:56
WntBut will be in the future11:56
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jukeis there some c preprocessor flag for checking sailfishos ?12:00
jukelike there is for symbian and meego12:00
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Wntjuke: I know nothing about C or it's preprocessors, but do you mean something like the "#ifndef SAILFISH" used in here for example
jukeWnt, yes, thank you!12:04
jukeis the official name of the os SailfishOS or Sailfish?12:05
kontioWnt: no not yet enforced..  see: that "fixes" the warnings... not sure how to do that in the .yaml file... but I got rid of that a while ago...12:05
kontioWnt: once the default template for sailfish os apps does it right, we will start enforcing it...12:06
Wntkontio: ok, I can then just wait for that :)12:06
kontioWnt: for details see: about %defattr and %attr...12:07
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kontioif you are interested...12:07
Wntkontio: thanks12:07
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leszekis there an example on how to use org.nemo.transferengine for downloads ?13:10
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Xiphcommuni is really smooth :)14:07
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IRCInfoCustomerInfo about IRC services here
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TQP1I'm having a problem with my jolla. It suddenly shut down, I started it. It worked fine a while and it shuted down again. Now it's in bootloop18:47
TQP1could someone help me?18:47
Bysmyyrtry #jollamobile18:48
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TQP1roger that18:48
satmdhm. the front cam. is there anything useful yet to do with it?18:48
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slateI use it to chat with my daughter via skype18:49
slateProlly meant for that..18:49
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satmdhm. I hoped for jabber and/or sip.18:51
satmdbut seems there's nothing yet for that18:51
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jukeis there a way to wake an app from background? i tried qtimer and it doesnt work, probably the phone is suspended or something20:56
jukelike rtc alarm is what i need20:56
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jukei probably should try Qt::PreciseTimer20:59
Accejuke: there was some stuff about that on the sailfish-devel mailing list some time ago20:59
Accecheck the archives / your mailbox20:59
Accetimers are paused when the phone screen turns off21:00
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AcceThere was some thing you can use, the Jolla alarm clock utilizes it21:00
Accebut don't remember what it was called21:00
jukeok thanks, i found the thread i think21:01
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Turskishould pyotherside be importable in normal python shell?21:06
Turskii'm just wonderin if i'm doing something wrong with installation since i'm getting "ImportError: No module named 'pyotherside'" and also my hello world crashes21:09
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jukeAcce, do you know if the timers are broken or is that done on purpose?21:11
artemmaI started receiving complains in app store that store wants to downgrade Quick Launcher. Apparently store managed to publish 1.1 for a short moment and then the publishing trouble happened :(21:12
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artemmaguys from Jolla, do you happen to have an idea when store database/process is likely to be fixed?21:13
Accejuke: I think it's done on purpose21:13
artemmaQTimer is not supposed to be reliable me thinks21:13
artemmaexactly so that it could be suspended21:13
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Accethe timers arent supposed to be used for events with large gap between21:14
jukeis there something that is?21:14
artemmajuke: officially - no :)21:14
jukeandroid has this AlarmManager21:14
artemmaunofficially I think you can hook on the alarm clock21:14
AcceI'd guess the API's are much in the works for now21:14
* artemma did it with timed in harmattan times21:14
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jukeso timers didn't wake the app even in harmattan?21:15
M4rtinKTurski: I think I won't work from shell21:15
artemmajuke: ah, you mean when the app IS running.. if you launch a separate thread, it might be able to stay awake21:15
M4rtinKTurski: at all21:15
M4rtinKTurski: due to how it work21:15
TurskiM4rtinK: that's what i thought...21:16
M4rtinKTurski: is works the other way around compared to "normal" Qt bindings (PySide & PyQt)21:16
jukeartemma, so only the qt reactor thread, or what ever, is suspended when screen goes off?21:16
TurskiM4rtinK: yea, i'm aware of that21:16
artemmajuke: actually I think I misunderstood your question21:16
M4rtinKTurski: QML starts first, like any other QML only app21:16
TurskiM4rtinK: just trying to get it to do something :P21:17
Accehere's Jonni's post about what you can do21:17
M4rtinKTurski: then starts the embedded Python intepreter and exposes itself as a Python extension :)21:17
TurskiM4rtinK: and at the same time trying to understand QML21:17
jukeartemma, so i have this app that's supposed to do something every 5-120 minutes, i trierd to use qtimer for it, but it doesnt' wake the phone from suspend, i suspect21:17
Accenot sure if this was what you already found though21:17
M4rtinKTurski: have you tried the examples ? :)21:17
artemmajuke: you mean your app is running, but screen is turned off already?21:18
jukeartemma, yes21:18
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Accejuke: if the timing is not critical, just make a Timer, with like, one minute interval21:18
artemmajuke: I would try playing with threads and their priorities. Maybe system is not able to stop something with, say, multimedia priorities21:18
Accethen check recorded date properties21:18
AcceI do that in my autorefresh21:19
M4rtinKartemma: IIRC, you can make it never suspend by playing a stopped file :)21:19
artemmajuke: hoooking onto alarm clock would be my second choice, but it's hard and unofficial (and might not work, I am speculating on harmattan memories)21:19
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TurskiM4rtinK: didn't actually try them, just tried to use them as example21:20
Turskiprobably good idea to test it they work21:20
jukewell i actually want the device to sleep so that harbour won't kick my app21:21
jukeso probably i need to check in to the alarm clock21:21
M4rtinKTurski: yeah, just run them with qmlscene :)21:21
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Turskihmm, actually python just said hello to me!21:22
M4rtinKoh any by the way21:23
M4rtinKPyOtherSide uses Python 321:23
Turskii know21:24
M4rtinKjust in case :)21:24
artemmajuke: multimedia priority thread doesn't have to actually use CPU ;) You can put it to sleep or nearly to sleep21:24
Turskii've been using python 3 for years already21:24
juke i lol'd21:24
M4rtinKyeah, also like it :)21:25
M4rtinKBTW, the modRana source code is Python 2.5 - 3.3 compatible :)21:26
M4rtinKPython 2.5 due to N900 support :)21:26
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artemmaWhat was again the platform define for qmake to differenciate between i486 and armv7?21:30
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artemmaah, message($$QMAKESPEC) will tell probably21:32
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Turskiaah, it works!21:35
Turskinow i'm getting to do the real magic21:36
artemmaHmm, QMAKESPEC tells linux-g++ for both emulator and armv7 build. How do I differentiate then?21:36
* artemma needs to include different files to emulator and device builds21:36
artemmaor maybe .yaml/.spec can differentiate?21:37
artemmacoderus: ping21:37
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rivenProbably some noob question... I'm playing around with the SDK and don't manage to get some audio playback working. I import QtMultimedia 5.0 on a qml page, add a MediaPlayer, set a source (in that case an web url) and call play on this mediaplayer, but I hear nothing mediaplayer.state states "1" and mediaplayer.error  521:40
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artemmaseriously, compiler somehow links to correct libraries for i486/armv7, right? How do I differentiate between them?21:44
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artemmaor maybe I can check current platform target somehow?21:46
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jukeartemma, so you think i could set qtimer in multimedia thread and it would work?21:47
artemmajuke: I would give it a try21:47
artemmaor play with making thread sleep()21:48
artemmafirst I would just try keeping it running and verified that system doesn't stop it indeed21:48
artemmaas it is the base assumption21:48
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jukebut how does that work if the device suspends21:49
jukeleave stuff like that to app developers and you are probably gonna get horrible solutions to common problems21:50
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artemmajuke: yes, I am offering non-official solutions and they might bight you back if you hack not accurately enough :)21:51
artemmasorry, don't have the better answers21:51
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jukeartemma, thanks, you've helped a bunch!21:51
artemmabite* you back21:52
jukedo you have any pointers where to look at the harmattan alarm clock thing?21:52
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artemmauhm.. not really. I only slightly seem to remember I've read something similar about jolla's alarm clock servic21:53
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artemmaI can describe verbally how I hacked it in harmattan times21:53
artemmaharmattan used alarm clock service called timed21:53
Stskeepsfwiw so does jolla..21:53
artemmaand you could define custom alarm handlers for it, so that you could e.g. show own button instead of default Snooze21:54
artemmaso my hack was to define an invisible alarm handler21:54
artemmaand schedule an alarm for this particular alarm type21:54
artemmathen alarm handler was able to start my app (or maybe my app was effectively the alarm handler, don't remember details)21:55
* artemma was surprised when it worked eventually and though he was a clever hacker for one bright moment :)21:55
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artemmaworked quite reliably actually21:56
jukethanks, i'll look into it21:56
artemmaif you use N9, you can download Daily Wallpaper from ovi store and enjoy21:56
artemmaStskeeps: I think I've read somewhere that Jolla isn't using timed21:56
artemmabut I also *seem* to remember that it uses some similar custom alarm clock handlers21:57
artemmajuke: if you ever manage to make it work, please, ping me. I will want to port daily wallpapers to sailfish eventually21:57
juke:D ok, i will21:57
artemmajuke: he's beef from harmattan times -
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artemmaaha, you were supplying a custom Event and Action to timed. Event could be invisible and Action could fire a dbus call. A dbus call then can start your app22:01
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jukeis there some alarm clock app coming with jolla phone?22:05
artemmajuke: you don't need clock app, just the alarm service22:05
artemmait *might* come with the clock app, but I guess it's part of mer/nemo22:05
jukeunrelated to this mean22:06
jukei mean*22:07
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jukei have the phone, but i can't find an alarm clock22:07
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juke are mentioned in together22:08
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Turskijuke: you didn't check the store...?22:17
Turskiit's in jolla essential apps22:17
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jukei thought it might be preinstalled, but thanks22:18
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* artemma just made a script to scp a list of files from device to the project folder (for supplying prebuilt libraries with the app). Hopefully Jolla will create an automated tool for it23:01
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satmdimho: bundling libraries with an app is not something good23:05
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satmdif there's ever going to be security problems or bugs in that library, you'll gonna have to patch it too. And history tells that this usually has been neglected.23:08
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artemmais /usr/lib/ really not allowed to link to?23:15
artemmasatmd: vice versa: bundling libraries with the app is the recommended harbour way23:15
artemmawhat is libicudata? It's 14+ MB, I'd love to skip it from already not tiny app bundle23:22
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Acceartemma: i think it has character encoding related stuff in it, unicode stuff23:29
artemmaAcce: hmm.. maybe gstreamer depends of it for some reason..23:30
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artemmahey! I can check dependencies of some simple harbour project!23:30
artemmashould have done that earlier!23:30
artemmaAcce: it looks like allowed lib list at is far from complete. Simplest hellp world depends on many more libs23:31
artemmathat is according to ldd23:31
* artemma went to throw away stuff from his lib fetching script23:31
Accehmm, I'm not pro with the libs, sorry23:36
jukei have to bundle v8 with my app :/23:37
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juke4 MiB for no reason23:37
artemmajuke: I don't think so23:38
jake9xxjuke , why ?23:38
jukeit's not on the allowed list23:38
artemmajuke: is not in the list of officially allowed apps, but even hello world links to it.23:38
artemmajuke: is not in the list of officially allowed apps, but even hello world links to it.23:38
artemmathere seem to be many libs like that23:39
* artemma is adjusting his lib fetching script right now23:39
jukedirectly link is the key word23:39
jukeyou can play with rpmvalidator, but that's the result23:39
artemmaI guess officially list is not listing some libs all apps link to.. don't know why23:39
jake9xxv8 is quite essentialfor j/qml projects23:39
jake9xxjs, even23:39
artemmajake9xx: well, for some reason it is not in the allowed list -
jukei had to bundle QtWebKit.experimental qml module with my app and it links to v8 so...23:40
artemmaif you can fix it, that'd be great :)23:40
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artemmajuke: even helloworld links to it23:40
jukewell, my app doesn't :D23:40
jukeor does, but it can still be pushed to harbour23:41
artemmahmm.. interesting23:41
jake9xxkaltsi: ^23:41
artemmajuke: have you tried harbour verification script?23:41
jukewell, like i said a couple of days before, no wonder there's so few apps in harbour23:41
jukeartemma, yeah, it rejected linking to shared v823:41
artemmafunny :/23:41
jukeif you don't directly link to the lib it's ok23:42
jukelike you can link to stuff on the list and they can link to v823:42
artemmahmm.. can I use ldd somehow to see if binary links to it directly?23:43
artemmaits output just seems to list everything23:43
artemmaincluding libhybris23:43
jukelemme ssh to my phone23:44
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artemmastrange, bundled 14MB big to my app, but total RPM size is just 5.2MB. Is it compressing THAT well?23:45
jukehmm, i was talking out of my ass23:45
jukei don't know how the deps are done23:46
jukemy binary also links to v823:46
jukebut have to go to bed -->23:46
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artemmaERROR [/bin/bash] Dependency not allowed23:52
artemmaah, I didn't care to exclude my shell scrip. That must be it23:53
* artemma is waiting for 7 days for his app update to be published by now. Hoping that harbour guys can solve system problems soon23:56

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