Saturday, 2014-03-15

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cvpgood morning ;)07:00
cos-i'd check for update but my jolla is just blinking green07:01
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AL13Ncoderus: why would you even want to give root perms to android apps?07:44
coderusfor hacking bonuses in games :D07:46
coderusand remove adv banners of course :)07:48
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cvpcoderus: you can edit game files... i did it on Hill Climp Racing....08:18
coderuscvp: i know, i prefer rooting aliendalvik :)08:20
cvpwant it too :)08:21
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cvpcoderus: do you have some infos about sailchat ?08:42
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AL13Nanyone working on a ebook/comicbook reader thing?08:48
AL13Ncalibre for sailfishos maybe?08:49
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dimitrimusHello to everybody!09:13
dimitrimusI have found the project not so long ago, but when I've heard about mobile OS built on Qt, I can't resist - that's brilliant!09:15
Stskeepshehe, did you see the hardware product / the videos?09:15
dimitrimusyep, and I already made an order for the jolla phone09:16
dimitrimusand now learning SDK09:16
dimitrimusit's really bad that it's so hard to get it from outside of the EU, but I hope I'll make it09:17
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dimitrimusby the way, is it possible to learn about applications which is really needed but have not been implemented yet?09:19
Stskeepsstore isn't accessible through web sadly09:19
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dimitrimusi see09:23
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dimitrimusok, that's a good time to learn a platform while waiting for the device09:23
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coderuscvp: no idea what is sailchat09:53
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fingahow far is the devel process of sailfishos to run for example on an geekphone revolution?10:13
Stskeepsit depends who asks - you have the android build tree for it already?10:15
fingaStskeeps: you mean having android sources on my machine?10:18
fingaStskeeps: sry i'm kind of new to android or sailfish10:18
Stskeepsin practice you need ~= some partial set of the build sources of an android build matching the device10:19
fingabut my aim is to run open source only,10:19
Stskeepsthat might be problematic since parts of sailfishos ui is closed source currently..10:20
Stskeepsand the GPU drivers on the geeksphone revolution is not OSS either10:20
fingaStskeeps yea true, i better would have said as much open as possible ;)10:21
Stskeepsso; what we'll be providing is to make it very easy to port sailfishos to a device that today runs cyanogenmod 10.110:22
Stskeepsif you don't have that, it's a little harder but not impossible10:22
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fingaStskeeps okay that helps a lot, the thing is i would love to have something like archlinux on my phone, in a philosophical way in the sense of lightwight. but i guess at the moment thats seems like a utopia10:24
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Stskeepswe're very lightweight10:25
fingagreat!! i'm realy looking forward to try out sailfish, because it seems sailfishos is going the right direction ;)10:26
fk_lxthey are very lightweight, but for some reason UI is laggy when compared to Android10:26
Stskeepswe have some way to go in some areas10:27
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fingahow is the developement driven? more community wise or from jolla?10:28
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Stskeepsi think it's unfair to say that we're community driven - we'd like to be, but in practice it's not like that at the moment -- we are basing on two open source projects; a collection of packages in practice, and nemo mobile; plus naturally all their upstream projects..10:29
Stskeepsand contribute into those10:29 helps determine direction of feature prioritization etc10:29
fk_lxfinga: developer community for now is only for marketing purposes to shout on stage, but in practice, read this:
fk_lxfinga: the sad part is that nothing have changed for months since that post was written10:31
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fk_lxfinga: also there are some serious problems
Stskeepsfk_lx: first warning, i think you're being toxic for no good reason10:33
fingafk_lx: thx, okay, i see but that doesn't scare me10:35
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fingai like breaking and fixing my os'es^^10:37
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phaeronfk_lx: search for S4 problems in google and see what you find :D10:38
Siddei can in some sense agree with fk_lx bout the lack of information on what's happening in the development10:39
fk_lxphaeron: we are talking here about Sailfish not Samsung ;-)10:39
fingaSidde, what do you mean?10:40
Siddethe roadmap for when and how we can use more qt10:40
fk_lxphaeron: about Samsung I could go to #tizen10:40
Sidde*qt modules10:40
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Siddeqtpositioning for example. When will it be ready to use for the jolla store10:41
fingahmmm... sidde but thats the problem with software not entirely driven by communities10:41
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fingalol was that neccessary?10:42
Stskeepsit goes deeper than this conversation, sorry10:42
Nicd-Sidde: isn't QtPositioning unstable altogether currently?10:42
* ruskie doesn't envy Stskeeps with needing to deal with such stuff10:42
SiddeNicd-: maybe. But what's the roadmap?10:42
Nicd-Sidde: I think it depends on Digia / the Qt devs10:43
SiddeNicd-: some features that worked good in qtmobile don't work so good in sailfish. Like satalite info and so in10:43
SiddeNicd-: all i say is it would be nice to have info like roadmaps and so in. Many applications on todays smartphones are integrated with sensors on the phone10:44
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Nicd-yeah, I agree10:45
SiddeNicd-: and it would be very nice to know when we can expect to use it. Is it a year away or is it not even planned to be implemented10:45
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Nicd-I'm waiting on positioning/location APIs because I'd like to work on a geocaching program10:45
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Stskeepsproblem there is the ABI changes that can happen in upstream10:46
Stskeepsand it will cause apps to start breaking when you do upgrades10:47
SiddeStskeeps: but what's jollas take on this? Are we never going to be able to use it because someone upstream might change something?10:48
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StskeepsSidde: not entirely no; but we try to follow's levels of api at any time10:48
ruskieI'm thinking it'll be more like once upstream stabilizes it10:48
Stskeepsbecause it's a huge work to maintain a fork in practice10:49
AL13Nbuild chroot is sort of finally ready:
Siddei can't really understand what you are saying. That is always the scenario with open source software.10:50
Stskeepsokay, let me rephrase10:50
Siddeand in this case sailfish is a smartphone os. but there is no APIs ready to be used for smartphone features10:51
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Stskeepsour API stack, especially when it comes to qt, is taken pretty much as-is upstream; people make applications that don't get build from source -- and we try to align as much as we can with their ABI stability promises10:51
Stskeepsso our work to maintain a working qtlocation api grows massively if we have to maintain the old ABI10:52
Stskeepsthis is fixed in qt5.2 i think though10:52
SiddeAnd when is sailfish ready for 5.2?10:53
Stskeepsprobably two updates away at the moment, we have the sw building internally but it's not consumer stable yet10:53
SiddeThis is exaclty the information i said that i'm missing. A roadmap or info about that's the plan forward10:53
Stskeepsit's too spread out currently and we haven't been good enough in our developer offering10:54
SiddeIt's very hard to be any kind of developer for sailfish when you are left out in the dark10:54
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Siddebut thanks Stskeeps for the info10:55
Sailor1190hi everyone10:56
Sailor1190any news for update?10:56
fingai agree with sidde, its not good to be left out in the dark ;)10:56
StskeepsSidde: well, i have to empty my dishwasher but we can sit and discuss a bit what's factually missing10:56
Stskeeps+after that10:56
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SiddeStskeeps: thanks but maybe another time. I'm off to apply some gelcoat on some parts for my boat :D10:57
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M4rtinKwell, I don't mind just fixing my application once the stable API is available11:04
Stskeepsthe other problem is then also if we added a sailfishos specific api, too11:05
Stskeepsthen there'd be a loss of compatibility with other qt based platforms11:05
M4rtinKI think most people are using the QML positioning API which is unlikely to change much at this point11:05
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Stskeepsi think it actually did11:06
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Stskeepsfrom what i saw11:06
M4rtinKwell I have the same code running on Sailfish & with desktop Qt 5.211:06
M4rtinKbut could be I'm not using the specific thing that changed11:07
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StskeepsM4rtinK: i saw the diff at some point and there was for sure abi trouble at least :/11:11
Stskeepselse we would have not bothered restricting it11:11
M4rtinKwell, I think some developers would not mind just fixing their app once needed11:12
Stskeepswell that's not so much that11:12
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M4rtinKrather than having it barred completely11:12
Stskeepsbut also that what about the apps that don't update.. and we remove from people's devices?11:12
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tbr"The following apps are not compatible with this update and will be removed: [list]"11:13
M4rtinKI would say developers responsibility11:13
phaerontbr: you think that's easy ? :)11:15
M4rtinKwell, you could just leave the app there even if it crashes11:15
Stskeepsnot really no, it's bad quality of the OS and user experience..11:16
M4rtinKif you remove it, people would blame the OS, if it crashes, people will (rightfully) blame the developer11:16
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tbrphaeron: it takes defining a process, but it's possible, yes11:16
phaerontbr: it needs support from the store side and the store client and all the way down :)11:17
tbrIf your app gets accepted conditionally to jolla store due to API usage, you agree to submit an update, otherwise harbour will simply remove it.11:17
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tbrphaeron: sure, it's additional work if it needs mechanisms that aren't there yet11:18
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Stskeepsand in store client, which means a N+1 update thing always :/11:18
Stskeepsbut yeah, we should probably get that discussed again11:18
tbrit means n+1 forever if it doesn't get started11:18
* Stskeeps sets a calendar reminder11:19
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M4rtinKyeah, I've been at the round table and I know there is no win-win solution11:25
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M4rtinKbut at the same time I can understand people being upset about APIs they consider essential not being available to Harbour applications11:26
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Guest94295Hello Guys11:26
Stskeepsbrr. massive rain storm outside..11:26
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StskeepsM4rtinK: yes, agreed11:29
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cos-luckily there is warehouse which helps a little with the api and other store acceptance issues11:42
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v3ng3anc3you guys need a bot in here :) with trivia about Sailfish. The prize is a flashable Sailfish OS :)11:53
v3ng3anc3and Just out of curiosity, will there be support for older Android Devices? Like the First Samsung Galaxy S?11:55
v3ng3anc3Would love to run that on my old, good for nothing phone11:55
jussiv3ng3anc3: from what I hear, it should work on anything CM 10.1 works on11:56
v3ng3anc3Realy? that would be amazing11:56
v3ng3anc3but isn't it Kernel related?11:56
jussiv3ng3anc3: Im planning to attempt the port to an older sony ericsson, lets see how things go11:56
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v3ng3anc3i hope they release the first Flashable zip soon, and from there ppl will add the drivers for their devices11:58
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v3ng3anc3Did you see a N9 running Sailfish? is it smooth?11:58
v3ng3anc3Because if that is smooth, then anything else will be too11:58
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v3ng3anc3? no answer12:01
jussisorry, was looking elswhere12:04
jussiits pretty decent on the n950...12:04
v3ng3anc3Np. Nice ti hear that12:04
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Stskeepsv3ng3anc3: the fact we use the gpu quite intensely helps a lot12:35
v3ng3anc3For the UI?12:38
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v3ng3anc3Android has an option in "developers options" to force GPU renedering for the UI but i can see no differance in my I9000 (Galaxy S)12:42
v3ng3anc3Anyway, there is nothing worse then low framerate12:43
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cos-all qml is drawn using gpu and all sailfish ui is qml12:50
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Stskeeps(plus a few shadereffects here and there)12:51
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cos-we have benchmarked qml against html5 in a couple of work projects and qml is the clear winner12:55
Stskeepsreally looking forward to getting the qt5.2 scenegraph renderer in12:56
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M4rtinKoh right, it is not there yet pre 5.212:58
M4rtinKalso that V4 JS engine12:58
Stskeepswe have gunnar sletta who wrote it onboard as well; many of the improvements you'll see in next update originates from his work12:59
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ruskiehmmm wouldn't mind giving sailfish a try on my galaxy tab 2 10.113:00
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ruskiethough wonder how the UI would fit a tablet13:01
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v3ng3anc3i have a tab 2 7.0 ... and would test there too if needed13:07
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v3ng3anc3lol, i would put Sailfish on my fridge, cause i loved Meego alot13:08
walokralbt_: is your screenshot's source available somewhere?13:09
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Stskeepsruskie: atm it kinda only does 'massive phone'13:10
Stskeepsruskie: check photos from MWC13:10
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lbt_walokra: nah, I never got round to publishing it. It's just a personal appstore project13:10
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walokralbt: ok, just going through different apps for blog post13:11
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lbtwalokra: sure13:12
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tbrwalokra: if you want an OSS app for screenshots: - also in store13:17
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tbralso you can do it from cmdline13:18
* Stskeeps uses that, too13:18
M4rtinKcommand line ? nice :)13:19
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M4rtinKshould make screenshots directly to local folder much easier :)13:19
tbrI seem to remember it being mentioned here, maybe even by me13:19
tbrit's a simple dbus call13:19
M4rtinKwell, even to a mounted web server folder :)13:19
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tbrthe app does pretty much the same IIRC13:19
lbtit does13:20
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tbr2014-01-02 20:05:18< coderus> /usr/lib/qt5/bin/qdbus org.nemomobile.lipstick /org/nemomobile/lipstick/screenshot org.nemomobile.lipstick.saveScreenshot /home/nemo/Pictures/Screenshot-`date +%d-%m-%y-%H-%M-%S`.png13:23
tbras an example13:23
kimmoli_sailing_easy to make it from proximity int too13:25
walokrawould like to see screenshots from power+volume down13:25
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MohisHey! Is there a way to fix the annoying Bootloop bug ?14:55
Stskeepsrecovery mode -> btrfs fix14:55
Stskeeps ?14:56
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walokralbt's screenshot is a lot more feature rich than sailshotme16:14
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Morpog_if it just would remember it's settings16:48
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freinhardis there a howto on installing applications on the sailfish sdk emulator? like an existing mail / calendar / contact application?17:02
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freinhardYaniel: ssh login to the emulator: there's no zypper binary17:07
Yanielwhat about pkcon?17:08
freinhardthat one is there17:08
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coderusafaik there are no x86 binaries for emulator you want :)17:16
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lbtMorpog_: ?17:22
Morpog_well, hide cover, screenshot delay and use png options all are reset when opening the app again17:23
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freinhardcoderus: so for the emulator theres basically nothing except for what is shipped with the SDK?17:30
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zippois there anyway to clear a canvas? after visualizing an image on the canvas it would be great if the canvas could be cleared again.18:41
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M4rtinKzippo: the QtQuick Canvas element ?19:13
zippoM4rtinK: yep, QtQuick Canvas ...19:14
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M4rtinKI think there is a clear method19:15
M4rtinKand I think you can also select areas to be repainted19:15
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zippoM4rtinK: ok, I'll check the repainting. couldn't find any description on a clear method so far. thx19:18
M4rtinKlooking at it now, looks like there is none :)19:18
M4rtinKbut I would say calling paint and not actually painting anything should do :)19:18
zippoM4rtinK: ok, i'll try that. thx19:19
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M4rtinKhaven't really used Canvas yet myself, but I'm going to in the near future19:21
M4rtinKfor drawing routes and tracklogs in modRana :)19:21
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M4rtinKBTW, just in case, do you happen to know how is tiling supposed to work in Canvas ?19:22
zippono, not really. just playing around with canvas for the first time myself. what was the modRana app again?19:23
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M4rtinKit is a navigation system19:24
M4rtinKyou can get it from OpenRepos if you want to try it out :)19:24
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zippojust took a look. pretty cool. have you worked with mapping in the past or is this just something you came up with out of your head!19:26
M4rtinKwell, I've been working on modRana since 2010 :)19:28
M4rtinKfirst supported device was the original Neo FreeRunner pen hardware mobile phone19:28
M4rtinKthen the N900, N9/50 and other devices19:29
M4rtinKit also runs on desktop Linux devices :)19:29
M4rtinKI also contribute to OpenStreetMap a bit :)19:29
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zippoquite a while... ok, never heard of the neo freerunner. done some hacking on the n900 quite a bit while working for nokia back in the day. that was before they made that dumb decission to go on with wp...19:31
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M4rtinKyeah, been through all that on the user side :)19:31
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M4rtinKwho knows where things would be without the Elopocalypse19:33
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M4rtinKon one side things could have been farther along, as all the changes delayed quite a lot of stuff19:33
M4rtinKQt 5, MeeGo/Mer, etc.19:34
M4rtinKon the other hand most of the concerned project seem to be generally more "healthy" not being bound to Nokia19:34
M4rtinKas one can see in all the innovation happening in Mer19:35
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M4rtinKand all the multiplatform progress in Qt19:35
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M4rtinKwhen both don't have Nokia breathing behind their neck19:36
M4rtinKthat's my feeling from the whole story :)19:36
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zippoabsolutly... but it was clear from day one with Elop that things would go the way they went with nokia. on the other hand you're right. who knows if all the advances would have happened if things had continued the way they were back then.19:37
zipporeally enjoyed working there though until things went down the drain....19:38
M4rtinKyeah, I was kinda surprised that even the N9 was released19:39
M4rtinKmade it actually worse, seeing how something with such potential was just dumped19:40
Stskeepsi think it's more interesting to see the impact that happened on non-android world when nokia dropped their big $$$ to a lot of existing subcontractors19:40
Stskeepsas well as technologies19:40
StskeepsGTK+->Qt switch really wounded GTK+ and surrounding tech19:40
M4rtinKwas Nokia investing into GTK that much ?19:41
Stskeepsremember how it was, nokia motivated people and open source projects to start companies19:42
M4rtinKit kinda always felt like a couple of GNOME people working on it since like forever19:42
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Stskeepsstuff like clutter, tracker, gtk+, etc19:42
M4rtinKyeah, clutter really feels kinda dumped19:42
M4rtinKdon't really know about anyone really using it other than the Gnome Shell Mutter compositor19:43
M4rtinKthese days19:43
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Stskeepsplus impact on qt, too, naturally19:44
M4rtinKwas kinda nice though, but still not as good as QtQuick19:44
Stskeepsat least we try to advance it with the time we have19:44
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Stskeepsnow it's IVI dumping money into non-android19:45
zipponot that i know of... mainly worked with qt back then. qtquick and qml was just starting out back then. mainly worked with the qt/js bridge back then19:45
M4rtinKwell, there is still some MeeGo offspring going on in the Tizen IVI IIRC19:46
Stskeepsof course19:46
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M4rtinKinteresting situation in BlackBerry with their "almost QML" Cascades19:47
M4rtinKand how/if they will handle the transition to Qt 519:47
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zippohaven't been involved with qt so much since then. just starting out again now since jolla....19:49
coderushow to get root access in SDK Emulator terminal?19:50
coderusno devel-su in emulato19:51
coderusthere is su only but password seems to be unset19:51
coderusshould i hack root password myself and there is no sulution? :D19:51
zippoyou can set the password yourself, yes19:52
coderusi can set nemo password19:52
coderusnot root :)19:52
zippooh yeah, that's right...19:52
locusfI remember there is a root only ssh key in the sdk, just don't remember where it wwas19:52
tbrtry sudo or su19:52
tbrone of them gets you root without password19:52
Stskeepsyeah, there's a root ssh key too afaik19:52
tbralso that19:53
coderusssh -p 2223 -i ~/SailfishOS/vmshare/ssh/private_keys/SailfishOS_Emulator/root root@localhost19:53
tbrit's the same as the nemo key19:53
coderusthanks tbr =)19:53
coderusand locusf19:53
locusfnp :)19:53
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coderusSailfish ambiance taken from emulator device20:29
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tortoisedocsay I have a service app20:47
tortoisedocand I would like to open a maintenance panel when clicking on the respective home screen button20:47
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tortoisedocdbus is ofc the way to go20:47
tortoisedocbut does sailfishos yet implement something like the MApplicationService interfaces that N9 did?20:48
tortoisedocyou would think mapplicationservice is in mlite520:49
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tbrtortoisedoc: given that they don't allow things with background processes in store, probably no20:54
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tortoisedoctbr: say what?20:55
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tortoisedocno services allowed?20:55
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tbrtortoisedoc: that was my understanding20:57
tortoisedoctbr : it does not say so in the faq20:57
tbrok, maybe I'm wrong20:57
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tortoisedoc(at least searching for background in the faq gives nothing :P )20:58
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tortoisedoctbr: perhaps not background processes, but services?20:58
tortoisedocyaniel : daemons, yes (damn me and my crappy windows language)21:00
Yanielmaybe in the future21:03
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tortoisedocno daemons in harbour? :/21:04
sardinionly angel21:04
tortoisedocsardini : haha21:05
tortoisedocweird, i thought the phone was meant to be open?21:05
Yanielharbour != your phone21:06
Yanielyou can install anything you want on your phone21:06
tortoisedochmm harbour == only official place of dist of sailfishos apps?21:07
tortoisedocso yes, somehow harbour == your jphone? :)21:07
Yanielwell there is warehouse21:07
Yanielwhich is not official but well known21:07
tortoisedoc(in terms of visibility=21:07
tortoisedoci assume this policy is due to the early nature of the sw stack?21:09
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YanielI think so21:11
Yanielthat is also why the list of allowed libraries is so short21:11
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