Sunday, 2014-03-23

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Guest77367How would start going about changing the way the pull down gesture works?00:28
Guest77367From the top of the screen.00:29
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ManontherightoftMaybe now isn't the right time.00:33
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Manontherightoft\quit night time here.00:42
Manontherightoft\quit night time here.00:42
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eternal_sorrowhi all01:38
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elenrilso..did the recent update reenable fastboot?07:07
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tbrelenril: I thought that had already been done, but you need to unlock the device or such07:12
zoldyckis it ok to clear /data/data/<appname>/* to delete an Android application's data?07:13
tbrIIRC yes07:14
elenrilah, i see it's in the recovery menu07:15
elenrili assume i can then lock it again when i'm done?07:15
tbrnot sure what it does etc07:18
tbron android this would nuke all your data, just saying07:18
elenrilthat would be quite unpleasant07:19
tbrmake a backup first then :)07:20
elenrilthere's nothing much important there so far07:21
elenriland yes, seems it is possible to re-lock07:22
elenrilthat's good07:22
zoldyckis it ok to symlink /data/sdcard to /media/sdcard/android? :)07:25
Stskeepselenril: you use recovery menu and you can lock/relock at will07:29
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Stskeepsnote that this might change in case a emmc encryption is put in place though, ie, that it might cause a factory reset07:30
Stskeepsbut no clue about that07:30
elenrilhmm, is 'fastboot -i 0x2931 boot boot.img' supposed to boot into the new image immediately07:31
elenrilbecause that does not seem to happen07:31
Stskeepssure you made it right?07:31
elenrili was using this image before the update07:32
elenrilit worked fine07:32
Stskeepsmay be that only flash works07:32
Stskeepsif so, grab a copy from /boot or how was it of the current system one07:32
zoldyckhow can I get the version of an installed Android app? (it was installed from .apk)07:33
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elenrilmaybe something changed in initrd that's not needed for boot...07:36
elenrilor wait, iirc there was no initrd at least before the update07:36
Stskeeps1.0.4 has a initrd now afaik07:37
elenrilthen i guess i'll have to extract it and repack my image07:38
elenrilsigh, i already forgot how to work with those android tools07:38
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AL13NStskeeps: is there a howto somewhere to manually chroot into / and /home from the recovery mode or whatnot?08:05
Stskeepshmm not offhand08:06
elenrilok, success08:09
Stskeepsit was that?08:09
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elenrilmy old kernel with a new initrd boots08:09
Dr_Cainwonder how much they changed since08:12
elenrilfrom what i saw it's just three new options enabled in config08:12
elenrilthe initrd seems to be just busybox + root mounting script08:14
Stskeepsit sorts out some bad btrfs bootlop behaviour08:14
elenrili'm not exactly a fan of btrfs, been wondering how suicidal it'd be to replace it with ext408:15
elenrilwell beyond the boot scripts nothing should really depend on it08:16
Stskeepsfactory reset, as an example08:16
elenrili can do snapshots with lvm too08:17
Stskeepswell, we use ext4 on the sailfish for android stuff08:17
elenrilwhy doesn't btrfs work there?08:18
Stskeepswell, we sideload into the userdata partition08:19
Stskeepsso that's why :P08:19
Stskeepsand a loop device with btrfs is more insanity than i'd like ;)08:20
zoldyckStskeeps: what do you mean by android stuff? mount only shows /persist /drm /var/systemlog as ext4 partitions08:21
Stskeepszoldyck: the sailfishos for existing android devices08:22
zoldyckah, ok08:22
Dr_Cainon android hw I believe08:22
AL13Nyou could convert the ext4 to btrfs and keep ext4 usable... but that's quite the insanity08:25
AL13Nmounting as ext4 just hides the new btrfs-only stuff08:26
AL13Nit's just, i wouldn't trust fsck with that kind of partition08:27
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merlin1991lbt / tbr I need an idea how I can do a local build of stuff for chum, the sailfishos sdk doesn't work since it's way behind with the python stuff, and I have no idea how I'd bootstrap a new target for
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coderusmerlin1991: ssh to mer vm and mb/mb2?08:41
merlin1991coderus: see the bit about "sailfishos sdk doesn't work since it's way behind with the python stuff"08:42
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coderusno way to fix it for you? :)08:51
merlin1991I'm currently reading through how obs builds his sailfishos target08:53
merlin1991and it seems like it just uses as base repo08:53
Stskeepsosc build --help08:53
Stskeepsuse mer platform sdk08:53
merlin1991creating a copy of the sailfish target on the mer vm relocating the url to the newer repo and zypper dup should work aswell?08:56
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merlin1991I'm asking because I'm running low on disk space ...08:57
* tbr would hope it does08:58
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AL13Nthis reminds me, i need to update my build chroot on-device too08:59
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* merlin1991 just realized he already has the platform sdk installed from playing around with nemo09:05
merlin1991so I'll bump that to a current version and go the osc route09:05
merlin1991tbr: I'm going to build python-requests for chum, I guess for the sake of completeness the spec should build python2 packages aswell?09:08
tbrmerlin1991: uh, I'm not familiar with the python ecosystem09:12
merlin1991well in order to use the library from python2 or python3 it has to be in different folders, my target is python3 but I guess it makes sense to have the buildprocess also spit out a python2-requests package that drops the file in the python2 library folder09:13
tbrdoes sailfish ship python2?09:14
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merlin1991yes by default09:14
merlin1991hm or not anymore09:15
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merlin1991in it was still there09:15
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tbris it on the device?09:16
merlin1991it is not on device anymore, but in the repo (package python)09:18
merlin1991on it was even on device09:18
Stskeepsfor third party we'd prefer people to use python3 i guess09:18
Stskeepsthp would know more09:18
merlin1991on the other hand as long as python2 is in the base image it doesn't hurt having a build for python2 aswell I guess?09:21
tbrI personally would prefer to get with the intention of jolla and go for python3 I guess09:24
tbrbut this should be really indicated by Stskeeps (as he just did) and lbt and other sailors in their official capacity09:24
merlin1991python3 it is then09:25
coderushow to show video file preview in qml?09:25
coderuscant find anything useful in multimedia things yet09:25
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merlin1991I'm trying to follow but obviously is outdated, what's the correct url nowadays?09:34
coderusirc channel a bit useless last time for me :D09:35
coderusbut i'm helping many peoples :D09:35
Stskeepsmerlin1991: osc -A https://api.merproject.org09:36
merlin1991thanks, I'll update the setup osc page09:37
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tbrdidn't we clean up the wiki?09:43
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* lbt wonders why he's apparently one of the few people who can see the '[edit]' link ... maybe it's because I have a wide screen?09:46
merlin1991lbt regarding is Niels still an admin?09:47
lbttechnically yes, but he doesn't have much time atm so no :)09:48
tbralso that's still COBS, where it was needed09:48
tbrwith mer obs it's self service09:48
tbryour mer bugzilla account just works09:48
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lbtall done09:53
merlin1991tbr: so no admin action nneded at all?09:53
merlin1991damn lbt I had that 90% finished09:53
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lbtsorry :)09:53
merlin1991ah well you were faster :D09:53
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lbtwith bigger pages the section editing reduces edit collision risk09:54
lbtand is more collaborative09:54
merlin1991since I stated some lines above I'll do the edits I didn't think someone from in here would go and do the very same thing09:55
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* fk_lx thinks that python2 and python3 should be equally supported, especially that most of enterprise world still uses python2 and some of the most popular frameworks like Twisted don't have python3 version10:07
fk_lxpython3 is still not a mainstream in python world10:07
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* fk_lx recalls in 2008 on first PyCon PL that the hot topic was "Migrating apps from Python 2 to Python 3" and the topic is still valid today, as not many people willing to transition10:08
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merlin1991meh: Files could not be expanded: service daemon error: 400 remote error: /usr/lib/obs/service//download_url No such file or directory10:09
fk_lxand there are still valid points why some people (well known in Python world) like Armin Ronacher are not enthusiastic about switch to Python 3:
fk_lxso if my voice is worth anything I vote for equal support for Python 2 and Python 3 on Sailfish OS10:10
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fk_lxlet's include as many developers as possible, not enforce transition from Python 2 to Python 3 as it is a topic for Python world to resolve10:11
* fk_lx ends his rant10:12
merlin1991lbt: above "meh: ..." means that upload from remote url does not work10:14
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Stskeepsfk_lx: fwiw the reason of python3 is that python2 is not upgradeable in our stack without a world rebuild ;) so that's why python3, as python2 is used for system packages and build10:19
Stskeepsbut now i need to jump in the metro10:19
fk_lxStskeeps: well that also shows python2 still rules if it's used for system packages and build ;-)10:20
Stskeepsyes ;)10:20
fk_lxfk_lx: one another reason to treat it equally for developers wanting to create apps in it10:21
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lbtmerlin1991: sorry - I didn't see that line when I was reading the backlog10:35
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lbtmerlin1991: also I'm doing some maintenance work atm - I'll take a look in a while. You probably need some kind of src service - I've not done an osc build for a *loong* time now10:36
merlin1991that happened on the webinterface when I tried to add the upstream tar.gz to sources via remote url10:36
lbtoh, right10:37
lbtyeah - I'm not sure I'm running the remote download service10:37
lbtwe're updating the obs soon and I'll review what services we use10:37
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merlin1991Stskeeps: I tried "osc build armv8el" but that fails with "error: File /home/abuild/rpmbuild/SOURCES/requests-2.1.1.tar.gz: No such file or directory"11:02
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merlin1991it looks like the SOURCES got copied to /var/tmp/build-root/home/abuild/rpmbuild/SOURCES/ but not to /var/tmp/build-root/target/home/abuild/rpmbuild/SOURCES/11:09
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IRC2312i had some wifi connection issues12:16
IRC2312as a side effect i miss status icons in the settings for flightmode, wlan ..12:17
IRC2312i can add favourites but they are only shortcuts and do not show the service status12:18
IRC2312i think i removed those before manually12:19
IRC2312any chance to get them back?12:19
vesurivsgo to the respective settings and press them long, a menu opens and choose favorite setting or something and it appears in the main screen of settings12:22
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IRC2312veserivs: i only get a shortcut to thr corresponding settings, it does not show me the status if wifi is active or not12:24
phaeronIRC2312: don't favorite the menu item , go inside the wlan setting and favorite the actual setting item12:24
IRC2312good to know12:26
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IRC2312many thanks phaeron12:26
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* merlin1991 headdesks a lot12:34
merlin1991well I found out why my build doesn't work, v2.1.1 vs v2.2.112:34
merlin1991and I learned a lot about the osc build system on the way :D12:35
Yanielwell, I made that settings mistake too in the beginning _/12:35
merlin1991I essentially traced the osc code through all calls to chroot sudo and whatnot untill I finally ended up in the innermost scratchbox and found out it's a version number typo12:35
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merlin1991but hey, now I know exactly what 'osc build' does :D12:36
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Yanielmerlin1991: :D12:37
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rusty88hey guys, just having some problems with deploying an application... the IDE says "Sailfish OS Emulator: Could not connect to Sailfish OS Emulator Virtual Machine"13:25
rusty88i've checked everything and I don't get it why it's not deploying13:26
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Accetried restarting and reconnecting the emulator?13:27
rusty88yes and still nothing13:29
rusty88ohh my bad... i started the emulator outside of the IDE13:30
merlin1991tbr: I think I submitted my package to sailfishos:chum:, but it doesn't show up in am I looking in the wrong place?13:33
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tbrmerlin1991: that's some OBS weirdness that lbt would need to look into. It does show up in my work queue though.13:37
merlin1991ah okay, so I guess we're good for now :)13:37
tbrIt's building now:
merlin1991how does the update workflow work on obs? or rather what do I need todo when upstream releases a new version to get that into chum?13:40
tbrit's available in testing now. I'd like to have feedback from someone who knows what this should be doing, like e.g. thp before I promote it to chum proper13:40
tbryou update your packaging and submit a new SR13:40
tbrat least that's how it works at the moment13:40
merlin1991I'll pester thp on tuesday so he'll give his thumbs up :)13:41
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merlin1991any idea why the version ended up as 2.2.1-10.7.1.jolla ?13:43
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tbrcould it be that $release is some constant on OBS? because that's what seems to have been overwritten13:47
thpmerlin1991: obs adding some release versioning there13:47
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thpmerlin1991: as for the python3-requests packaging, i'm not sure whether the manual tarball extraction in the .spec file is necessary; %setup should do that for you, no?13:49
merlin1991no because that includes cd into $packagename13:50
merlin1991which fails because the source isn't inside a python3-requests folder13:50
thpthere's some argument to %setup that can deal with that13:50
carepack_hey guys13:51
thpmerlin1991: -> %setup -n13:51
merlin1991I tried to look the setup macro up in /var/lib ... but didn't find it in there13:51
carepack_is a kickstart file for mako available?13:51
Morpogcarepack, /msg sledges for more information13:51
merlin1991okay I'll change that13:52
carepack_already done-. but forgot to ask him. he's not available atm13:52
carepack_thx Morpog13:53
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Morpogcarepack_, afaik it's not released yet, but will be "soon"13:53
thpmerlin1991: iirc the BuildRoot: specified in the .spec can also usually be removed, it will have some sane value if not specified13:53
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thp(also, there's a trailing ")" there which you might now want to have ;)13:53
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* artemma discovered that harbour started showing to app store users "what's new" text that was supposed to be for app store testers only.. *sigh* is communication about coming changes against jolla religion or what?14:17
* artemma is happy he didn't have any testing account credentials listed there14:17
thpartemma: wasn't there a separate field for "message to testers"? iirc the what's new is always shown to users14:19
artemmathp: there was. It was called "Recent changes" :)14:20
artemmanow it is shown to users14:20
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thpartemma: "Recent changes - Optional info about updates" it says now in harbour.14:20
thpartemma: iirc it was always shown in the store client ui, but i could be mistaken14:21
artemmathp: I think it was always this way. It was never shown to users and there was a message that it was supposed to be used for communication to testers14:21
artemmaI can try finding the reference if you like, but I clearly remember it was intended for it and I used it for it14:21
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thpin any case, the "message to testers only" field would be useful to have in some cases (test account as you mentioned)14:22
Almindorwhat's the right way to bind a C++/QObject class into the QML with SailfishApp?14:22
artemmaand BTW, it also means that right now there is no way to pass testing account credentials to testers. Except this IRC channel as usual :)14:22
Almindordo I have to stop using the ::main call and do it all manually or is there a shortcut to bind something to a qml?14:22
thpAlmindor: yeah, you have to stop using main and do it manually14:23
artemmaAlmindor: all the standard Qt ways work fine14:23
AlmindorI see14:23
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thpAlmindor: because at that point, you usually want to deal with lifecycle of your C++ objects and stuff14:23
thpAlmindor: <- this is SailfishApp::main(), you can use it as a starting point for your customization14:24
Almindorah cool14:24
thp(you can't use SailfishAppPriv, but your app name you should know, anyway :)14:24
Almindoryeah I had it done once in beta times14:24
AlmindorI think it wasn't using SailfishApp yet back then14:24
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thpAlmindor: sailfishapp + its ::main() is usually to hide away implementation details like booster usage that you shouldn't care about. there's less of a benefit in creating wrappers for setting context properties and stuff14:27
thpand ::main() in particular is just convenience for the generic case where you don't need/want to do anything special in c++ (at which case you can also use qml-only sailfish apps without a main binary using the sailfish-qml launcher)14:28
* artemma is trying to create an "updated, here are new features!" note on top of a page. In hierarchy it is next to and after Flickable, but.. somehow clickable Flickable areas remain clickable through banner..14:31
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artemmaApparently SilicaFlickable somehow embeds itself into the Page structure for flicking etc14:32
artemmabut then how do I implement a temporary modal note banner on top of it?14:32
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artemmahmm, Labels inside flickable seem to be painted on top of the labels declared after it14:42
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artemmar-r-r, I don't want to use Dialog for an update notification. Modal note on top of main page should look better14:48
artemmayes, flickable seems to be painted on top of whatever..14:51
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Nightmare__you can draw a info item inside the flickable15:00
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thptbr: looks good to me now, if it builds, should be good to promote it to the next stage15:13
artemmaNightmare__: I'd like it to be modal on top of flickable. Possibly I am doing something very wrong as flickable's labels seem to ignore hierarchy of painting somehow15:14
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artemmawhat is proper backgtound color to be used? Theme.secondary color seems to be for texts, etc, not for backgrounds15:14
artemmaor is background supposed to be always just transparent?15:14
thpartemma: Theme.highlightColor maybe?15:15
artemmathp: "highlightColor - adds emphasis to active and selected areas of the UI".. hmm, maybe it means background indeed.. didn't come to my mind15:16
artemmathx, will try15:16
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lbtI think there's a BackgroundItem or something15:22
* lbt goes back to his servers15:23
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merlin1991sings of a good sysadmin15:30
merlin1991#1 claiming the servers are "his"15:30
merlin1991or was that sings of a bofh?15:31
* lbt also looks at who pays the hosting bills :) (me, Carsten, vgrade, Jolla, PlasmaActive)15:31
lbt'donations accepted' too :)15:33
lbtPSA: OBS is going to go down for a while15:34
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artemmalbt: background item is for clickable things I thought..15:36
lbtartemma: check the src for it :)15:37
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lbtI'm not the guy to ask about what it is intended for15:37
artemmalbt: well docs told it's for backgrounds :) I think it's highlighted on tap. Sure I can override with MouseArea, but then I can also override just color for Rectangle :)15:38
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Morpogartemma, there is also Theme.highlightBackgroundColor15:47
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Morpogand you could alter the theme colors with Qt.darker() and Qt.lighter()15:48
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new299Hi guys, if I want to buy a phone to play around with sailfishos on and maybe do some development what's my best bet?16:32
lbta Jolla16:32
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new299lbt: thanks, didn't realise that was shipping now. Someone needs to update the Sailfish OS hardware list on the wikipedia page.16:36
lbt :)16:37
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cos-yesterday my phone dropped gsm network totally. i tried switching to airplane mode & back, but only full reboot helped.16:38
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cos-i was underground at local hacklab where gsm reception is poor when i noticed the issue16:39
AcceI had same problem few days ago16:39
new299SailfishOS uses a stock Linux kernel and glibc? Has the full source for the Jolla been released?16:40
lbtnew299: all open source is released16:42
Stskeepsnew299: yes, there's a source code request in the about product that works for getting all gpl/lgpl sources and a bit more16:42
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new299Stskeeps: awesome! just bought a geeksphone revolution but have been put off by the fact that they've not relased the source.16:45
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lbtnew299: there is a 'legal compliance' release - but more importantly most (and, in future, more) work on open code is done on open git repos16:48
Stskeepsnew299: in practice, a large majority of sailfishos is open source, but, UI and parts of hardware adaptation is closed (not all is ours)16:48
Stskeepsbut kernel source is there for sure16:48
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new299Stskeeps: awesome, and is it compiled against BOINC or stock glibc? I understand it uses some parts of Android?16:50
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Stskeepsnew299: it is a glibc system but leverages bionic based hardware adaptation through something called libhybris16:52
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new299Stskeeps: that sounds like a neat solution to a problem I've generally seen with Android based stuff. I'll have to read up on libhybris16:55
ryukafalzAs far as UI goes, think that'll be opened up in the future?16:57
Stskeepsit helps but also introduces new headaches16:57
Stskeepsryukafalz: well, sailfish browser is now open source..16:57
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Stskeepsthat's practically the policy16:57
Stskeepsit isn't 'we won't ever open source the ui', but that we need to evaluate it carefully if we do want to open source something16:58
Stskeepsin return, everything else is no questions asked, just open source it16:58
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new299Stskeeps: I can guess that it would. I'm kind of suprised that Jolla, having spec'd the hardware couldn't get a completely natively glibc environment.16:59
Morpognew299, you need deep pockets for that17:00
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lbtcan't spec a new GPU with drivers :)17:00
new299Stskeeps: I'm guessing it's the OpenGL problem, where the chip vendor has supplied OpenGL drivers compiled against BOINC again...17:00
lbtyes, and that's whay libhybris is for17:01
Stskeepsnew299: yup, it's almost impossible to get a x11 opengl driver that's sane today17:01
Stskeepsbionic, fwiw17:01
Stskeepsboinc is a bit cooler project ;)17:01
* lbt prefers boinc17:01
new299Syskeeps: heh17:01
Stskeepstalk of mine, explains libhybris, too17:01
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ryukafalzStskeeps: That's a fair enough policy IMO - and it's far better than Google's policy for Android :P17:04
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new299Stskeeps: thanks looks very interesting I'll check it out.17:05
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ryukafalzThe only thing that concerns me is applications written with Sailfish QML components... since they're closed, such applications can effectively only run on Sailfish unless ported. Not sure how feasible a common component API would be though...17:08
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Morpogthere are apps like gpodder which run on several platforms17:11
Morpoglike gpodder 4.0 runs with qt5 on bb10 and sailfishos17:11
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cos-i'd love to see common components for QML, but they don't exist yet. that's why siilihai does not use silica.17:12
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Morpogcos-, they are working on that, qt quick controls it's called17:12
cos-i don't have the time to maintain two ui's as a hobby project, even if i'd love to have sailfish version17:12
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Morpogand glacier ui controls are based on top of them17:12
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ryukafalzOn that note, I'm impressed with the example Android app for Qt Quick Controls17:19
artemmaWell, actually most of Sailfish Controls are sourced under BSD licence. Just look at e.g. Page.qml sources in SDK17:19
artemmaThey won't work right away as some bits are closed (most notably Theme), but work to make them working fine is quite minimal I imagine17:20
ryukafalzartemma: I read that the QML parts were open source but the C++ parts are closed -
artemmaCloning Sailfish apps on the other hand is a different story17:20
* fk_lx wonders when the whole Sailfish OS source code will leak ;-)17:21
artemmaryukafalz: exactly, but to my understanding 90% (if not 100%) of those closed C++ part is just Theme object17:21
Shaan7well leaks will cause the ship have trouble with sailing , right? :P17:21
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artemmaIt also depends on the goal of open sourcing everything. If it's for detecting bugs and raising trust level, Jolla could craft some license "free for reading and compiling for yourself, but not allowed to redistribute even for free"17:22
fk_lxShaan7: such leaks/piracy also has it's value - might boost popularity of the OS ;-)17:22
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* artemma would actually love to borrow such license for himself. Thinking of starting Telegram client soon: open sourcing is important for raising trust to a secure messenger, but I am not fine with others creating clones the next second17:25
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cos-Jolla is a company trying to make a profit, so i don't think it's smart to open source everything17:27
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artemmawell, license to read the code doesn't mean the right to replicate and resell code. MIT and BSD are not the only licenses possible17:30
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artemmaCreative Commons Non-Commercial license would already prohibit commercial reuse of Sailfish. Non-commercial reuse of Sailfish may or may not be a threat still. Lawyers could prohibit it too17:31
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Stskeepsartemma: licenses are lovely when you're dealing with markets where copyright matters17:39
artemma@Stskeeps: yes, sure. Thing that mostly keeps me surprised is Sailfish controls. You know, so small part is closed there, that anybody who really wants could clone them anyway. Possibly within a day17:41
artemmaand I would guess technical complexity of opening mostly :)17:41
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artemmaPossibly Theme object is added by a big(gish) library responsible for other things as well17:42
Stskeepsartemma: there's some magic in there but at least it doesn't hinder people, as the qml is what most people want to copy-paste into their apps or specialize17:44
ryukafalzartemma: I have mixed feelings about Telegram17:44
artemmaryukafalz: ?17:45
* Stskeeps wonders which one of the devices on his table is making 'power is low' sounds..17:45
ryukafalzartemma: The client is open source, but the server is not, and it's not really "secure" unless you use secret chats... IMO security should be the default17:45
lbtPSA Mer OBS is back17:46
artemmaah.. ryukafalz: /me doesn't care about security in messenger that much. NSA will anyway see it all if it wants :)17:46
ryukafalzartemma: That said, a KDE-Telepathy dev is mentoring a GSoC student for a Telegram CM for Telepathy, which I'd imagine would plug nicely into Sailfish's messenger ;)17:46
* artemma cares about messenger popularity and secure image will definitely help it17:46
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ryukafalzartemma: Sure, but I feel like popularizing an app with "secure" marketing is dangerous if it isn't actually secure - especially if it's centralized because then you have platform lock-in17:47
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artemmaryukafalz: well, it is definitely way more secure against man in the middle attack. So "more secure" claim is true. It's just "not secure enough" from ppl who have access to servers17:48
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Raimartemma: and if they want to, they also get into your flat. so you leave your door unlocked?17:49
artemmaand still if users insist and care they can use secret chats with end-2-end encryption17:49
ryukafalzartemma: More secure than XMPP with SSL enabled though? Because that has existed for years now.17:49
artemmaRaim: in Finland where whole country is pretty much on a master-key system in apartments, we pretty much do it, yes :)17:49
ryukafalzIt makes me think of a centralized XMPP server with a few fancy features basically17:50
ryukafalz(and no federation)17:50
* artemma remembers reading an article about cryptography expert who studied apartment key systems and figured that any system with the master key could be broken within a couple of hours.. and they was told that keys industry knew that for ages :)17:50
artemmaryukafalz: public telegram servers exist and are cared after. Show me the public XMPP servers that do the same?17:51
artemmapopularity is about marketing anyway17:51
fk_lxartemma: rather sum of marketing and good product17:52
artemmafk_lx: totally. So Telegram has this good product bit that they seem to market well17:52
artemmaryukafalz: remind me again why none of my friends isn't using these?17:53
* artemma admits that he didn't even care to check abt secure XMPP servers existence and.. that's the whole point17:54
ryukafalzartemma: Lack of marketing. Which is a social rather than technical problem and IMO doesn't require a whole new (in some sense inferior) technical solutoin.17:55
artemmayeah, that's interesting discussion on its own. As for me, I just like doing useful products for many-many people and potentially with commercial potential. Can't see much as attractive as Telegram client at the moment17:56
ryukafalzFair enough - if you're interested more in popularity then there you go. Personally, I'm only interested in the best technical solutions. :P17:56
artemmaryukafalz: then you can jut continue using your favorite XMPP client for Sailfish17:57
ryukafalzI just don't like insecure things being paraded around as completely secure because it takes attention away from things that do it better17:58
tbrmerlin1991 / thp - it's in chum proper now17:58
ryukafalzartemma: XMPP isn't the ideal solution either, my point was just that Telegram doesn't do anything particularly better than XMPP ;)17:58
artemmaokay that was a bit too much, I aplogize17:58
carepack_do you know threema? telegram alternative. end to end encryption?17:59
artemmaryukafalz: I am motivated by popularity*usefulness. I really-really have hard time imagining XMPP client having more usefulness effect on more people17:59
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carepack_yeah. some parts not open source17:59
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artemmait's way less about tech stuff, it's way more about simplicity, first time use and accounts18:01
ryukafalzartemma: Why not though? It's just a protocol, and with a well-designed client the experience could be very similar to Telegram/WhatsApp/etc.18:01
EztranIf Telegram actually did something useful and new, that'd be great, I'd encourage people to use it. It kinda doesn't, though, its only real upside is a recent popularity bubble.18:01
artemmabut then again I am in the camp of believers that most of ppl don't really care much abt security, what they do care about is being surprised, so you just have to be very clear on what exactly is secure18:01
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ryukafalzartemma: My opinion on that is that those of us building the tools should be the ones caring about security - so whether the users know it or not, their stuff is secure by default, and they don't even need to care18:03
ryukafalzI'm not there yet, working towards a CS degree, but my programming skills aren't up to snuff at this point18:03
artemmaryukafalz: that means that Telegram client built by you would have secure chats by default. Okay18:03
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squiddWhat is secure these days?18:04
Eztran'very little' being the obvious answer, but the arguments around this have been made back-and-forth forever, and are always forgotten when the next person brings it up.18:04
Accemy brain is still secure.. or so I have been taught to believe!18:05
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ryukafalzartemma: It would, but that's not an ideal solution either really... at that point the experience suffers somewhat because you can't sync chat history between devices18:05
ryukafalzideally you should be able to do that without any server having plaintext logs18:05
artemmaI always find the security talks funny as 99% security is pretty much impossible practically (even without thermo-rectal cryptoanalysis involved), but if you care about it a little, you'll be already more secure than most. Just find your middle point18:06
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ryukafalzthe problem for me I guess is my middle point is still higher than anything out there as of now... because I care about security, but I also care about user experience18:07
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ryukafalzif I wanted total security the best thing I could get now is probably retroshare, but the user experience for that is terrible18:07
ryukafalzbasically my only security requirement is "don't have plaintext logs sitting on some server somewhere that I have no control over"18:08
artemmame thinks total security is possible (ask Snowden), but is so damned hard, you won't go there anyway18:08
ryukafalzit's not possible unless you use a one-time pad, and even then you have to worry about the hardware you're using being compromised... "total security" isn't ;)18:10
ryukafalzOTP is information-theoretically secure though18:10
ryukafalzbut infeasible for practical use18:10
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ryukafalzcarepack_: proof of work requirement makes it infeasible for mobile clients18:20
ryukafalzas well as any sort of instant messaging use case in general18:20
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ryukafalzsure, but lowering the proof of work requirement makes it more vulnerable to spam, which in that particular case has the potential to cripple the network18:25
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ryukafalzand lest I forget that I'm in #sailfishos and not a more security-oriented channel... is all about this kind of thing haha18:31
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artemmaAnybody who knows gstreamer here?18:49
* artemma wonders if controling LED power level is possible via some GStreamer element property18:49
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tbrwhich led?18:49
artemmacamera LED18:49
tbrno idea. try gst-inspect on the device. that tends to dig out interesting things18:50
artemmacurrent flashlight app is pretty much  gst-launch-0.10 droidcamsrc  mode=mode-video video-torch=true name=d d.vfsrc ! droideglsink18:50
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artemmaor something close to that18:50
artemmaI wonder if controling power level is somehow possible for video-torch18:51
artemmathough it's name seems to suggest power isn't controllable18:51
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coderusartemma: on N9 it wasnt possible to control torch power19:06
coderusonly small red led power19:06
artemmacoderus: to my understanding there are standard APIs for it. At QtMultimedia level for sure, I was wondering abt GStreamer level, I don't know it well and googling didn't help19:07
artemmasure it's up to Jolla to actually implement these APIs or not19:07
* artemma updates his project list at the blog just because wants to link to some projects from the app and.. it means projects actually need to have own pages :)19:09
coderusartemma: n9 camera was perfectly controlled by V4L19:10
artemmanever worked with it..19:11
artemmagoogling suggests that V4L might be able to control LED power
artemmathough that's could so close to HW, that doesn't make sense in jolla times19:11
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coderusi tried using v4l on jolla with no success19:23
coderusmaybe you luck )19:23
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avivbyoQuick question about app designing , can i change the wallpaper of the app (only my app) to a specific one i choose?19:57
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avivbyoNo one knows if it's possible ? Bummer.20:11
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Nicd-it's possible20:11
Nicd-at least in a bad and hacky way20:11
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Nicd-why do you want to change it?20:11
avivbyoAny hints ? ;)20:11
avivbyoFor an idea of designing my app20:11
avivbyoWant to make it pretty much Unique20:12
Nicd-hopefully not at the cost of integration20:12
Nicd-anyway, at least you could put a big image to the background with the z property20:13
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artemmaavivbyo: If you mean changing the background, I guess you can just put whichever image you like to cover all of the system background20:24
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cornehello, i'm trying to make a simple app to record audio21:21
cornebut i get a warning that there are no input devices available21:22
corne[W] QNullInputDevice::start:91 - using null input device, none available21:22
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jake9xx_corne: emulator?21:27
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jake9xx_artemma: your long wished feature is now in testing of the SDK :) We'll soon know if it passes smokes and then normal QA run -> out21:28
artemmajake9xx_: which one? :)21:28
jake9xx_artemma: editor21:28
* artemma wishes a lot :)21:28
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artemmauhm.. editor?21:29
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cornejake9xx_: no the device21:30
artemmajake9xx_: ah, you mean disabling or sane .yaml editor probably. That's good21:30
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artemmanowadays thing that slows me down most in SDK is that I don't have a workflow for updating just QML (or just .so binary, but usually QML is more important). I am usually shipping several libs that expect to be present in particular directories, so deploying to /opt isn't super-good idea21:32
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M4rtinKthat's what's nice about just using Python & QML :)21:38
M4rtinKI don't need to use the SDK at all21:38
M4rtinKand can just rsync all of my code :)21:39
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Accewell, you can rsync it even if you use the sdk :P21:39
artemmaM4rtinK: it's more about putting proper files to proper locations in my case. I deploy precompiled binaries too (e.g. prebuilt gstreamer). I guess your code could use some c++ libs too and then you'll need to deploy them too21:40
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artemmayeah, I need to take time one day and create an rsync workflow. Shouldn't be too difficult to deploy to /opt or maybe sudo rsync to /usr21:40
M4rtinKwell, I'll just install the corresponding package21:40
artemmawould be good to have built-in SDK support for it though21:41
M4rtinKor worst case the compiled lib would be part of the source tree21:41
artemmaM4rtinK: I am into making stuff for harbour, so I need to put everything to the app folders21:41
M4rtinKartemma: during development I just rsync the whole source tree & run it with qmlscene (the Python backend is loaded using the PyOtherSide QML Plugin)21:43
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artemmaM4rtinK: that means that your compiled binaries need to exist right in the source tree, doesn't it?21:43
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M4rtinKartemma: but yeah, but for packaging I have quite an ugly function that works around all the limitations sailfish-qml has compared to qmlscene21:44
M4rtinKartemma: yes, if there were any21:44
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M4rtinKartemma: but for example you don't need to add them to Git & only package stuff that Git knows about21:46
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M4rtinKartemma: like this you can have basically anything in the source tree, but only the relevant stuff will get packaged21:46
M4rtinKjust an idea :)21:46
artemmaHmm, I think it will be more sane to rsync from INSTALLS folders21:46
artemmathat would let qmake perform its things while skipping slow RM packaging21:47
M4rtinKstill, making a simple rsync script for the QML files only should be super easy21:47
artemmathough rsyncing qmls from source tree is a way faster indeed21:47
M4rtinKjust find where they end up on the device after deployment21:47
M4rtinKand rsnc them there from your source folder21:48
artemmamaybe I shouldn't try packaging all into one workflow. I can deploy to /opt with one script and then rsync just qmls to the deployed location21:48
M4rtinKAFAIK you can even run scripts using a shortcut in QtCreator21:48
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* artemma is not sure if rsync can deploy to folders owned by nemo, maybe it can21:48
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artemmayeah, rsyncing just qmls to /usr location should work21:49
artemmathanks, will try21:49
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* lbt notes that "make install" should take no time at all if no src has changed21:49
* artemma hopes somebody could publish a blog post with diagrams, scripts and blackjack about his workflow ;)21:49
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M4rtinKBTW, I actually do it the other way around :)21:49
M4rtinKI have a script on the device, that rsyncs the source & runs the program :)21:50
M4rtinKso when I want to debug, I just ssh to the device and run the script21:50
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M4rtinKbut I am not using any sophisticated debugging tools though21:51
* artemma hopes SDK will have a working debugger soon. Sorta hard to unit test parts that go deeper into system such as nemo permissions, lipstick shortcuts and gstreamer21:51
M4rtinKit's nice if one has time to write tests :)21:52
lbtin gdb:    set debug-file-directory /opt/sdk/harbour-XXXX/usr/lib/debug:/usr/lib/debug21:53
artemmait's nice if one has time to fix bugs. /me finds tests cheaper :)21:53
lbtthen an rsync'ed install will work21:53
artemmabut then it's not that much of bug fixing to me, I use TDD more as a design method, tests are more of a welcome side effect21:54
* artemma doesn't know gdb and to be honest is not into learning. Hope to survive with tests until Jolla ppl make UI debugger work21:54
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lbthmm.. on my box the actual "mb2 deploy" step takes 7 seconds in the SDK VM ... the install takes 4s of that and visually there is some rpm validation which should not be happening which takes 2s of the 4s22:02
lbtSDK is running qmake though - it should know not to do that22:04
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_r_where is sledges22:46
_r_im pretty psyched about the oppertunity to try sailfish on my nexus 4 :)22:47
Arkkisin London I think22:47
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_r_any idea when he is coming back22:48
Arkkisnope :)22:48
_r_o ahaha22:48
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artemmaIf I define several subpackages in my .yaml/.spec, can I instruct Qt Creator to install only one/few of them?23:57
artemmaI want to create a subpackage that would drop an extra config file for increased logging. That is to be deployed to users which have issues with my app, but obviously I don't want to deploy it during daily development23:58

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