Monday, 2014-12-08

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ThatTreeOverTherHow is it that Sailfish can run Dalvik Android apps?00:39
K4-tBecause Dalvik is a virtual machine00:41
K4-thow does java run it's apps on all thos different platforms?00:42
K4-tI hope that kind of answers your question. :P00:42
ThatTreeOverTherSure, but isn't there some sort of "secret sauce" that makes it, you know, work? I can't just slap a Dalvik VM on my desktop Linux and get native notifications and Google API stuff00:43
K4-tARM :300:43
lpotterand licenses00:44
K4-tX86_64 computers vs ARM00:44
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K4-tand what lpotter said00:44
ThatTreeOverTherOkay, then my ARM Chromebook.00:44
K4-tYou can run android apps on chrome00:44
K4-tsome run quite well00:44
ThatTreeOverTherHow does it wooork though00:44
K4-tVirtual machines and magic00:44
K4-tgoogle magic00:45
ThatTreeOverTher>_< that's literally what someone else said00:45
K4-tthis explains it a bit better00:45
ThatTreeOverTherCan Sailfish run ART apps?00:47
K4-tMost ART apps wil work on Dalvik00:49
K4-tThey're mostly compatible from what I remember00:49
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ThatTreeOverTherMy imagination tells me that the easiest way to do something like this is to run an unmodified Dalvik VM with a little bit of "magic"00:50
ThatTreeOverTherthat is, a classloader function that replaces OS API calls to what would be Android to Sailfish or whatever00:51
ThatTreeOverTherThis is theoretically easy enough to do and mostly just a pain because there's a lot of API surface to cover00:52
ThatTreeOverTherIt begs the question of why Sailfish doesn't make it open source :/00:54
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sandsmarkThatTreeOverTher: because jolla didn't write it01:00
ThatTreeOverTherOh, really01:00
sandsmarkand there's much more to it than that01:00
K4-tYea ThatTreeOverTher01:00
sandsmarkall that zygote crap, for example01:00
K4-tit's googles invention01:00
sandsmarkno, I mean the android compatibility platform thing01:01
K4-tDalvik and ART01:01
sandsmarkit's a propriatary solution that jolla has paid for01:01
sandsmarkproprietary, even01:01
K4-twhich makes it a bitch to work with01:01
sandsmarkwell, IMHO android is a bitch to work with even on android phones :p01:01
K4-tThat it is. lol01:02
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ThatTreeOverTherThat's unfortunate.. I was wondering how they got it to work so well01:03
ThatTreeOverTherWell, as in, works at native speed and doesn't crash more than 50% of the time01:04
sandsmarkdoesn't really crash at all for me01:04
ThatTreeOverTher(I may have watched an old review of the Jolla phone)01:04
sandsmarkprobably, haven't had an android application crash on me yet01:06
sandsmark(well, except my own, but that's my own fault :p)01:06
sandsmarkbut yeah, this is the product they're using:
sandsmarkthey seem to have their own VM as well that they say outperforms the normal dalvik01:07
sandsmark«Increases the execution speed of applications developed using the Java programming language by up to five times»01:08
sandsmarkthanks to google for making the android stack bsd and not gpl, so they don't have to release the source :p01:10
ThatTreeOverTherI was hoping to build my own phone from ARM single-board computers and a GSM module... looks like I won't get Android apps running just yet01:10
ThatTreeOverTherBut theoretically I could inject a class to provide all the API stuff into every dex when loaded, right?01:14
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sandsmarkThatTreeOverTher: you would need to get dalvik and friends to run first01:18
ThatTreeOverTherTheoretically that wouldn't be extraordinarily difficult though... Would it?01:19
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ThatTreeOverTherWorst case scenario, I boot up a VM that runs a hacked up version of Android01:20
ThatTreeOverTherwhich in turn opens a Dalvik VM01:20
sandsmarkSounds fun :D01:21
sandsmarkWould probably be easier to just port android01:22
ThatTreeOverTherTrue.. and then I could get access to APIs01:23
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Almindorhow do you make the SDK copy all your project's .qm translation files? (or package them as part of the RPM)02:24
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ryukafalzSo every time I try deploying my project, the "/home/deploy/installroot" directory doesn't seem to exist. Is there something obvious I may be missing?04:57
ryukafalzalso where are _datadir and _bindir defined?04:58
ryukafalzI haven't been able to find much documentation regarding these04:58
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locusfthose are mb2 gimmicks05:19
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locusfryukafalz: try create the directory05:20
ryukafalzlocusf: in the mersdk vm?05:23
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locusfryukafalz: yes05:23
locusfif that doesn't help, you might want to try updating your sdk vm05:24
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ryukafalzoh damn okay why didn't I think of that?05:26
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ryukafalzdoesn't look like that was my whole problem though, hmm05:28
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ryukafalzso, long story short, I'm trying to get an existing application to build on sfos05:30
ryukafalzso I initially copied the yaml file for the sample application05:31
ryukafalzbut I'm currently getting this error: "Error on file "/home/deploy/installroot/usr/share/applications/*.desktop": No such file or directory"05:32
ryukafalzthe .pro file does appear to have the .desktop file in INSTALLS05:34
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ryukafalzlocusf: any ideas?05:35
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locusfryukafalz: hmm05:43
locusfryukafalz: its a non-sfos app?05:43
ryukafalzit is, yes, though it is qt5+qml05:43 file for reference, currently unmodified:
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locusfyou might want to contact special as he is the author of the software :)05:45
locusfhe said somewhere that sfos app could be coming05:45
ryukafalzyeah, I talked to him about it a bit a while back05:46
locusfryukafalz: remove the .desktop file from the .spec file05:46
ryukafalzwanted to give it a shot myself in the meantime ;)05:46
locusfyeah understandable, the app seems great05:47
ryukafalz"find: /home/deploy/installroot: No such file or directory" mmmhhh because the generated spec file has "rm -rf %{buildroot}" in the %install section...05:50
locusflol theres your problem :)05:51
ryukafalzwell that's the default though XD05:52
ryukafalzhmm, I get the feeling the %qmake5_install section is supposed to handle creating it05:52
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ryukafalzbut according to this documentation qmake should be able to use the INSTALLS section to put files in their proper locations, etc
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ryukafalzhmm... took a look at the generated Makefile.Debug06:03
ryukafalzinstall: FORCE06:04
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ryukafalzI think that explains it, heh06:05
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zGrrmoin :)09:30
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Stskeepshello hello10:51
anYcis there a way to trigger a synchronization of carddav/caldav accounts per SSH?10:51
tbrprobably by a dbus message10:52
anYchm ok, thanks10:53
GurvanI suppose many here have enabled developer mode for jolla phone, I would like to do it too however it says it *may* void the warranty but isn't very clear about the conditions, doed anybody know them by any chance?10:54
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StskeepsGurvan: generally if you break something you may get to keep both pieces; so don't do anything really really stupid like kill the bootloader or make recovery mode impossible10:54
tbrGurvan: "don't do really stupid things"10:54
Stskeepsif you at all times can factory reset successfully, you're fine10:55
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tbryeah, what Stskeeps said, don't mess with the block devices unless you really really know what you are doing and are willing to sacrifice your device to the flying spaghetti monster10:55
Stskeepswith great power comes great responsibility, etc10:55
tbrand a big electricity bill10:56
dr_gogeta86hi guys10:57
Gurvanok so if you don't play with overclocking or writing an app where you must throw your phone the highest possble is ok? for instance writing python or c programs doesn't void your warranty if you find a dead pixel?10:57
Gurvan@tbr ^^10:57
tbrGurvan: yes, that's how it is handled so far10:58
Gurvanok, thanks :)10:59
tbrif your device becomes a hard brick that can't be revived by recovery and you had developer mode on → that might mean out of warranty (just as an example)10:59
tbrturning on developer mode and unlocking boot loaders is part of the unboxing anyway, isn't it?11:00
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Gurvanwell I'm a linux sysadmin so being able to work in ssh is important to me ;)11:01
urjamanso it is possible to brick this so bad it cant be made to boot from an usb host or SD (without opening it up)? ... thats sad.11:01
Stskeepsurjaman: well, if you overwrite the bootloader code on the emmc, it's rather stupid11:01
Stskeepsand no usb host support on jolla phone; plus booting from sd is a bit of a unknown in consumer electronics11:02
ikarusWhat is the easiest way to start with development for SailfishOS without using the IDE ?11:02
zuttobooting from sd isnt impossible task tho11:02
tbrurjaman: depending on the vendor of the eMMC it may be possible to write protect boot-loader and recovery, but then you immediately get people complaining that the device isn't open enough...11:03
urjamanbut i assume it has a boot ROM that loads the code from the emmc? ... I come from the openpandora parts and that omap 3530 can boot as an usb device or from sd with the ROM it has burned (by pressing a key)...11:03
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tbrurjaman: the pressing a key changes SYSBOOT, a specific concept of the OMAP family. Qualcomm might have something similar, but they also have a liking for crypto signed stuff, so it might not be that trivial to boot from µSD11:04
coderusanyone have link to patch for controls in notifications view?11:04
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tbrand JFTR: also the Nokia devices behaved the same. You could effectively destroy a N900, N9 or N950 by wiping certain parts of the flash11:06
urjamanN900 doesnt have sysboot? thats an omap...11:06
tbrurjaman: the sysboot config on the device allowed booting from eMMC and USB at least. don't remember details11:07
tbrurjaman: the problem is the HS variety of the SoC used, it expects a signed loader and that has certain assumptions about what it finds on the eMMC11:07
* urjaman is now wondering how you load the eMMC with data in the first place...11:08
tbrif the boot loader doesn't find that, it just stops. your device is now unbootable and short of unsoldering the eMMC there is no way to recover11:08
tbrurjaman: by a factory boot loader11:08
tbrurjaman: something closely guarded and well secured. The device is booted e.g. over USB and the special loader then takes additional data over USB and sets up the device, programs IMEI etc11:09
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urjamanso just trust sequencing of "empty eMMC, try usb" ... i was expecting a bed of nails that turns some pin so it can boot from insert_other_method (RS-232 or usb or uSD or..)11:11
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tbrurjaman: that might also happen on some sort of debug port, yes11:12
tbrurjaman: recently booting devices from USB has become quite popular though11:13
tbrand by booting from USB I do NOT mean host mode and a USB stick11:13
tbrthe device appears for a split second as USB device and then a computer can send it commands11:13
tbrc.f. android fastboot, nokia flasher, etc11:13
urjamanyeah i know usb device (i mis-wrote in that my first question... i meant _from_ a host _as_ a device)11:14
tbrbooting from UART used to be popular before USB11:14
urjamanmost of the nokia symbian phones can be "catched" as a usb boot device (remove battery, attach usb, attach battery, press power)11:15
urjamanand that makes them kinda easily unbrickable ... i was expecting the same.11:16
Toxiphello everyone :)11:18
ToxipI have a problem. delegate items show outside the grid view. How can I make them "hide" under the view borders?11:19
tbrurjaman: oh, trust me, you can brick one of those11:21
tbrurjaman: they also rely on the loader finding certain data on the flash/emmmc11:21
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urjamanso that feature isnt 100% ROM? okay i didnt know. I'd never tried maliciously erasing them :P, just flashed bad enough stuff that it wont boot ...11:24
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anYcin case someone else wants to trigger a sync: dbus-send --print-reply --session --type=method_call --dest='com.meego.msyncd' '/synchronizer' com.meego.msyncd.startSync string:"carddav.Contacts-9"11:35
anYcset the last part to your account ID11:35
anYcor service11:36
coderusSK_work: ping11:41
coderusToxip: for your problem solution is clip: true11:43
Toxipthanks :)11:43
ToxipI've made a lot of progress with my app now. It's starting to look like a game now :)11:47
coderusgood :)11:49
tbrurjaman: btw, on a device where I was developing custom firmware, we agreed together with the manufacturer's R&D to simply make parts of the device NAND read-only in the kernel. The patch was documented and commented. If someone knew what they were doing they could just flash their own kernel without that patch. I believe that could be a sensible approach for jolla too. I called it the dont-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot.patch. cc/ Stskeeps11:50
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urjamani guess i'll just keep far away from the bootloader & kernel bits...11:54
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knihtihey, whats is name of that slider-keyboard thingy i readed about somewhere?12:00
locusfknihti: tohkbd?12:00
meklu#jollatohkbd on this network12:00
knihtithats the one !12:01
m4g0gIf I want always have one page as attached for all pages, how I can do it?12:03
m4g0gI should add pushAttached to every other pages? But how I should remove page from stack12:04
m4g0gDoes friends app opensource or not?12:05
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leszekm4g0g: I think the easiest would be forking pageStack12:08
leszekm4g0g: pageStack is a js file as far as I know12:10
m4g0gFriends has this behavior but I can't find sources of thos app12:10
leszekah ok. Hmm... then I guess its done manually12:11
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lukedirtwalkerm4g0g: friends sources are here:
leszekperhaps one function in the main qml file which gets called onComponent completed12:11
lukedirtwalkerm4g0g: ping SK_work to tell you more about it12:12
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ikarusSo uh, back to the questions, any way to build, run, etc, without using the Qt Creator IDE ? it doesn't fit me well12:16
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urjamanI've built stuff on the phone... qmake, make, make install as root... seems to work, so i'd guess you can do the same with the SDK12:18
ikarusurjaman: so ssh into the build env and all that faff ? no scripts or the like outside of there to do that for me ?12:18
urjamanthe SDK has a command that it uses to invoke the build on the VM side, but really i havent investigated12:20
urjamanthats also just a wrapper around ssh afaik :P12:20
tbrikarus: I believe someone blogged how to do it12:20
ikarustbr: google hasn't found any useful hits as "WITHOUT" is a word with very very low priority to google12:21
urjamani read on a blog somebody took the build system out of the VM too12:21
tbrikarus: the gist is quite simple, you ssh into the mer build vm and then use the sb2 targets or issue mb212:21
tbrsb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl12:22
tbror for a root shell in the target: sb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl -R12:22
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tbrikarus: if you have a rpm spec: mb build -t SailfishOS-armv7hl ./your.spec12:26
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ikarustbr: presume I have nothing, never dealt with the Sailfish build system, haven't dealt with RPM in ages, I just know that IDEs make me want to punch people12:28
anYcthe possibility to just download a vbox image of the MER SDK isn't maintained anymore?12:28
Armadillohm, still no qa since thursday :-/12:29
anYcah, my question should go to #mer12:29
ikarus(if I went with IDEs that companies want me to use, I'd be using 4-6 different ones on a weekly basis, so I just stopped doing that)12:30
tbranYc: you mean the mer one or the sailfish one that contains a mer build system?12:30
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tbrikarus: so, do you have the sailfish sdk installed?12:30
tbrok, then start the mer build vm (either through Qt creator or vbox UI, no difference)12:31
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tbronce that has booted you should be able to ssh into it. For me that's: ssh -p 2222 -i ~/sailfishos/vmshare/ssh/private_keys/engine/mersdk mersdk@localhost12:32
tbrbut for you the path will be different12:32
anYctbr: anything that allows me to quickly test a patch against nemomobile/buteo-sync-plugin-carddav. for MER the link to the vbox in the wiki is dead, and the Sailfish site links to an executable although I just want a virtual machine12:32
urjamanbtw I used to use port 2222 for my own ssh tunnels -.-, that caused some WTFs with the SDK12:33
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tbrikarus: has the details on getting in through SSH12:33
anYcI'm reluctant to starting random binaries from the internet :)12:33
tbranYc: let me look for the magic link in the sdk update ;)12:34
ikarustbr: I got that far12:34
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ikarusthe actual build, test deploy (vm/real dev), build rpm steps seem to be more of a headache12:36
tbranYc: oh, look, a random bl0b on the innertubz:
tbrikarus: you said to start at adam and eve. :)12:37
ikarustbr: :)12:37
tbrikarus: anyway, once you are inside the mersdk vm, you cd into the mapped home directory to your sources12:37
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tbrikarus: then if you want to mess around with compilers, autofoo etc, you would get yourself a sb2 shell: sb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl12:38
anYctbr: thank you very much! I'll try it12:38
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ikarustbr: and I guess mb2 -t SailfishOS-armv7hl -d "SailfishOS Emulator" deploy --pkcon allows me to throw stuff to the Emulator (or similarly any real device)12:45
tbrikarus: no idea, I only scp rpms around :)12:46
ikarusgetting tempted to teach qmake (or a less silly build system), to do this for me, it's silly that it's tied into qcreator and not qmake12:47
ikarusalso yeah, running the build system outside of the VM is trivial, you just can't do it on non-Linux12:47
tbrthe VM is a nice way for portability and compatibility reasons12:49
tbrand nowadays doesn't have much overhead due to hw virtualization12:49
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ikarusbut the dependency on qcreator for most automation of this stuff, feels ugh, well, it feels very "professional" for a HW company, they all tie all their stuff closely into their IDEs, that are all completely different and broken in so many ways12:50
ikarusprobably QtCreator is least broken of them all, but still12:50
tbrI found this approach refreshingly easy to sidestep12:51
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tbrdocumented way to ssh in and all that12:51
ikarustbr: it's slightly harder because the qmake/make doesn't actually include all the build env setup stuff, nor installs, etc12:52
ikarusAndroid handles this slightly better, it even includes a non-GUI way to initially setup a enviroment12:52
ikarusbut compared to most embedded SDKs, yes12:53
tbryou can zypper in all you want in the target12:53
ikarustbr: yes, but the build system isn't clean and straightup12:53
tbrand as I just showed anYc, you don't even need to install the sdk12:53
ikarusyou need to ssh in, etc12:53
ikarusideally you can run a single command in the source dir, without connecting to a special build enviroment, to build and perhaps one more to install it12:54
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ikarusit's quite a few more steps, including ones you can easily muck up with this12:54
SK_workpong lukedirtwalker m4g0g12:54
tbr*shrug* I still find this very straight forward, even compared to the confusing android SDK setups12:55
ikarustbr: idk, cd path/to/application; ant debug; adb install build/foo.apk is quite simple12:56
ikarusbut as said, I've dealt with worse SDKs, although most of those where for simpeler platforms, so bypassing them was easier12:56
ikarusso it sort of balances out12:56
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m4g0gSK_work: friends is closed source app?13:05
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ikarusmight just condense this all into a bit of a wiki/blog bit13:06
tbrikarus: if you blog about sailfish/jolla, please let me know a (filtered) feed for
SK_workm4g0g: no13:08
SK_workthe sources were shown by lukedirtwalker13:08
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SK_workout of curiosity lbt, what did you do with this partnerspace thing ?14:22
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lbtit has my home-automation stuff - so when I get home I swipe it in and unlock my front door :)14:25
lbtnice easy access14:25
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SK_workthat's quite an awesome usage :)14:27
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Morpog_Jolla_lukedirtwalker: aaand it crashes14:39
zGrrDoes Jolla plan to integrate SIP in sailfishos 2.0?14:48
lukedirtwalkerMorpog_Jolla_: yay :(14:49
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NokiuszGrr: HOPE SO!!!!!!15:05
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anYcIs there a way to update the Sailfish target in the Mer SDK VM to Uitukka?15:30
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anYc+an easy way15:30
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stephganYc: download the u9 beta sdk instead?15:33
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anYcyeah but it's a little bit odd that I have to download an executable while I only want a vbox image15:43
stephgu8 to u9 is a major change15:45
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krnlyngis there a way to stop the phone from rebooting if there is a kernel panic? i am testing a kernel module and when i run insmod the phone reboots, so i assume it's a kernel panic but i want to look at dmesg to see whats wrong15:57
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krnlyngis it because kernel.panic = 1? how do i set that to 0?15:59
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javispedroalso, wouldn't android's last kmsg feature be more useful here?16:08
javispedrocheck /proc/last_kmsg immediately after it reboots16:09
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anYcif someone else is only interested in the SDK VBox:
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sandsmarkkrnlyng: tried #kernelnewbies on oftc?17:03
sandsmarkkrnlyng: and yeah, put it in /etc/sysctl.conf17:03
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sandsmarkto make it permanent17:04
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sandsmarkoh joy, tracker has lost all my metadata...17:12
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Stskeepsgood thing it doesn't host your contacts as well.17:13
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sandsmarkhaha, yeah..17:13
sandsmarkbetween this and the crappy API I don't really have much love left over for tracker :p17:14
Armadilloany experiences with the current qa duration?17:14
Armadillomine reaches 5 days tomorrow morning :-/17:14
ArmadilloI should add that it includes the weekend17:15
sandsmarkyeah, I would think that you should count "workdays"17:16
sandsmarkseems like I'm not the only one17:17
ArmadilloI know, but the last 4 times it didn't took over 36 hours17:17
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beidlsandsmark: seems like using inotify directly would be a more reliable option for the owncloud client ;)17:23
sandsmarkbeidl: yes, that's my plan17:23
sandsmarkallow the user to add arbitrary folders that should be backed up to owncloud17:24
sandsmarkjust been busy the last week with some other projects17:24
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beidlthough, actually querying tracker for files that have been added between application starts would be nice17:25
beidlsandsmark: no worries, I've been pretty busy myself this week :)17:25
sandsmarkhmm, yeah17:25
sandsmarkwould probably make sense to write a daemon that always runs in the background, and communicates with the UI17:25
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sandsmarkStskeeps: now you really scared me, it seemed like all my contacts were gone17:26
sandsmarkbut luckily it was just slow17:26
beidlI've thought of that as well, it's just that I would've hoped to keep the app harbour-only17:26
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beidlseems like a lot of things I'd like to implement require a fork for openrepos17:26
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beidlnot only a systemd user service but also being able to send pictures from the Gallery using a nemo-transferengine plugin17:28
sandsmarkah, yeah, that would be awesome17:28
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beidla question to the jollasphere: is there some progress on allowing transferengine plugins and/or systemd user services in harbour?17:29
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* beidl doesn't really want to implement just another local file browser for selecting files to upload.17:32
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lukedirtwalkerbeidl: next community meeting should talk about this17:36
beidlwhat about a file picker daemon one could talk to via dbus + respecive qt-bindings?17:37
SK_workbeidl: systemd = no17:37
beidllukedirtwalker: I'd be glad to17:37
beidlSK_work: I figured that17:37
SK_workbut there might be some "autostart" api at some point17:37
sandsmarkwhat would be the difference between that and a systemd unit?17:37
beidlSK_work: I wonder then what would keep track of the service lifetime?17:38
SK_workbeidl: spawn as lipsitck's children17:38
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beidlSK_work: seems like unnessecary duplication of functionality when systemd user sessions are there for exactly this reason.17:39
SK_workbeidl: the problem is systemd user sessions is quite fragile17:39
beidlmaybe lipstick could just start the service, the service doesn't have to be enabled at install time17:39
beidlor what about some kind of metadata type which the system could generate a minimal systemd unit out of?17:40
sandsmarkSK_work: fragile?17:41
SK_worksandsmark: not robust17:41
sandsmarkyes, but how?17:41
sandsmarkas in not guaranteed to launch or something?17:41
sandsmarksystemd has one job; launch stuff :D17:42
SK_worksandsmark: what if you mess dependencies up, and lipstick don't start ?17:42
beidland it does it well from my experience :)17:42
SK_workit is quite easy actually17:42
SK_workdisclaimer: no systemd flamewar here please17:43
sandsmarkSK_work: I'm probably just not experienced enough with systemd, but wouldn't you need to edit the dependencies of lipstick, or the lipstick unit itself?17:43
beidlSK_work: as I said, maybe something could post-installation generate a systemd unit, without dependencies or anything, just leaf processes17:43
sandsmarkyeah, that also makes sense17:44
beidlsandsmark: no, you can make a systemd unit grow a reverse-dependency17:44
beidlas well17:44
sandsmarkwell, yes, Before= or whatever?17:44
beidlsandsmark: right17:44
SK_workactually I would like to have systemd start daemons17:44
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sandsmarkbut I don't think that would halt the execution of what it is Before=, I think?17:44
SK_workbut if it is not available in harbour, I'm not against any other solution17:44
SK_workthat's all17:44
beidlsandsmark: it does from my experience.17:45
sandsmarkhmm, ok17:46
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sandsmarkjust never had that happen to me, but I haven't done much non-basic stuff with it17:46
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beidlI'd like to brainstorm a robust solution at the next meeting17:47
beidlhopefully my schedule allows me to join the channel17:47
sandsmarkwell, could let QA block anything that touches lipstick or any of its dependencies in its unit :p17:47
beidlservices don't need dependencies if the UI is guaranteed to be up :)17:49
sandsmarkunless you somehow decide to ship multiple daemons or something17:49
beidlthat would require additional logic in the daemons themselves, yes.17:50
sandsmarkoh well, systemd units might be overkill, but it would be nice for systemd to automatically restart crashing services etc.17:50
beidlon the other hand, what use cases would be there17:50
sandsmarkno idea, I was thinking crash-resistance17:53
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beidla qmake macro to generate a minimal service file without dependencies + letting lipstick instruct systemd --user to start the service via dbus shouldn't be too complicated and repeatable17:56
sandsmarkit's a good idea, hopefully it will get in soon17:56
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beidli hope so as well17:57
SK_workbeidl: if it is installed correctly, you don't need lipstick to start the daemon17:57
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beidlSK_work: yeah, but what guarantees us it'll be installed correctly?17:58
SK_workbeidl: nothing especially when we are  not allowed to install in /usr/share/systemd17:58
SK_work(or something like that)17:59
krnlyngsandsmark: thanks, i made a script which sets kernel.panic and kernel.panic_on_oops to 0, but i am still wondering why i can't find the entries for both of them in /etc/sysctl.d/ (nor /etc/sysctl.conf)17:59
krnlyngmaybe 1 is the default value for both17:59
sandsmarkI think so17:59
beidlSK_work: systemd does start unit files from ~/.config/something IIRC17:59
SK_workbeidl: does it ?17:59
SK_workthen we don't need anything then :)18:00
beidlSK_work: ~/.config/systemd/user/18:00
beidlSK_work: we would need something to disable services using a UI though18:00
beidlalso, I'm not sure which systemd version that was added in18:00
SK_workbeidl: can't you try right now18:01
SK_workI don't have SSH on Jolla at work18:01
SK_workso :(18:01
beidlSK_work: already on it ;)18:01
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beidlworks, just has to be started (since I didn't explicitly enable it)18:07
SK_workbeidl: pretty good18:07
SK_workI will write the UI18:07
beidlSK_work: niiice :D18:07
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beidlare you a sailor? because... having it in the settings app would be nifty :)18:09
tbrSK_work / beidl - note that somewhere in recent developer comms from jolla they mentioned that they wouldn't allow user services for a while in harbour "because the session was so fragile" or such.18:14
SK_workah damn, indeed there is a problem18:15
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SK_workbeidl: not a sailor,n but responsible for jolla-settings-patchmanager18:15
SK_workand torch18:15
SK_workproblem = you are not allowed to write in ~/.config/systemd stuff18:15
SK_workno daemon in harbour :(18:15
specialI expect it could be possible *if* the work is done to find a safe subset of declarations in unit files and test for them18:17
specialgetting it wrong can be subtle and catastrophic18:17
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beidlit would be the safest option of some trusted process (either at buildtime, installtime or runtime) generates the unit file out of a minimal set of information18:20
beidls/of some/when some/18:20
beidlthe daemon could be installed into /usr/share/harbour-appname/daemon/18:21
beidl(the daemon that should be started as part of the service)18:21
beidlthen a trusted process could be used to write the necessary unit file to ~/.config/systemd/user18:22
beidlenable/disable methods available via dbus, so that app developers have a way to enable the service18:22
beidland when enabling a service, the trusted daemon could check if the method was invoked either by system settings or the app itself18:23
beidlapps should of course only be allowed to enable their respective daemon counterparts, not those of other apps18:24
SK_workbeidl: add this to next meeting18:25
SK_workthis is interesting18:25
beidlthis way we wouldn't let arbitrary apps write to ~/.config/systemd, and have a predictable way of enabling/disabling user services18:25
beidlSK_work: I see that on Dec 16th I probably won't be able to join :/18:27
beidlmy work schedule ends an hour later18:27
SK_workI can take it18:27
beidlor, with a little bit of luck, i can join in the last half hour18:27
SK_workbeidl: harbour rules don't allow writes to .config/systemd18:27
beidlSK_work: I know that, that's why we need some trusted process to decide on enabling/disabling and writing to ~/.config/systemd18:28
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SK_workbeidl: lipstick or a system daemon à la apkd18:29
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beidlSK_work: right. it could even be a oneshot that is started when lipstick is up.18:29
beidlI'd even do the work on it if there's interest in it18:30
SK_workthere is interest18:31
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beidlalso, this way would allow a future where sandboxing could be in place, only letting trusted daemons do decisions on session-wide settings18:33
SK_workthat's another issue18:34
SK_workquite important one18:34
beidlone which bugs me as well :)18:34
SK_workI was thinking of 2 options18:35
SK_work1: use polkit18:35
SK_work2: use selinux18:35
SK_workdon't think 1 will work well18:35
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beidlI've heard SELinux is not something Jolla is interested in18:36
beidl(even though I like to noexecheap stuff :))18:36
beidlper-app groups could work as well, just a little more complicated. then again, selinux is quite complicated also and easier to get wrong18:37
SK_workbeidl: where did you hear that ?18:37
SK_workSELinux is complicated18:37
SK_workdon't like it18:37
Nightmare__ <- abandoned since may18:37
beidlSK_work: people :)18:37
SK_workpolkit is simple, like it18:37
SK_workbut maybe not secure enough18:37
Nightmare__ <- nothing new since Feb.18:38
SK_workinteresting discussions18:38
beidltime to wake people up again on that topic18:38
Nightmare__there are some interesstint topics on j2g but they get lost a few weeks after creation18:39
beidlespecially in a tablet world this is importand. families with only one tablet per house, sharing the tablet between family members.18:39
SK_workhum interesting the different uid + polkit thing18:39
beidlpretty much what I envisioned with trusted daemons18:40
beidlit's like we have all the puzzle pieces to build it, we're just not looking at it18:40
SK_workI would like to build the containers thingie18:41
SK_workdon't know how to do this though18:41
beidlSK_work: containers as in "docker"?18:42
SK_workeither as docker or as chroot18:42
beidlway too much overhead18:42
SK_workor as running as different uid18:42
SK_workjust for containing the app18:42
beidlthough namespacing would be nifty18:42
SK_workthat's all18:42
SK_worknamespace ?18:42
SK_workcan you highlight me a bit on this18:42
SK_workwhat I actuallyw ant is to build a proof of cocnept18:42
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SK_workbeidl: interesting18:50
SK_worktime to go and experiment :)18:50
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beidlif people could give me input on my proposal (and if there's even interest by Jolla) I'd like to take notes on something like etherpad19:10
beidljust in case I really won't be able to join the IRC on the 16th19:11
beidl(talking about user services)19:11
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beidlSK_work sandsmark special any ideas?
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kimmoligrr... seems that toh-daemon needs to be a system service to get it started by udev-rules during boot.21:41
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javispedroit always surprises me how stupid the level of integration between systemd-udev and systemd itself is21:42
dr_gogeta86night guys21:43
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javispedrowhy can't you just After=udev:devices/whatever or something like that21:43
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kimmolii think it has something do with nemo being not there when udev rule is triggered for toh-eeprom21:57
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javispedroyou could make a fake system-level unit that is just started when the udev rule triggers (and stopped too)22:07
javispedroand then make the user level unit file depend on the system service22:07
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javispedro(though I'm not sure if you actually can depend on a system service...)22:09
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kimmolidunno. anyway the daemon needs to suid, so it makes little difference running it as system- or user-service. only need to pass few environment variables to it when system-service.22:21
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