Monday, 2018-02-26

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blapPoettering is incorporating social media support into systemd00:17
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tadzikI read "poettering" as an adjective, heh00:28
tadzikalso, seriously?00:28
blapno is joke, but systemd is such cancer, you had to wonder if it was real00:32
blap@ tadzik00:32
tadzikI wouldn't be too surprised at this point00:33
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blap"Bringing linux into the cloud: journald to deprecate local logging and switch to twitter posts."01:45
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spiiroin_sven is gone but: n9 had oled display with actual low power mode supported by hw; while the some of the lpm logic is inherited, it triggers - not lpm but -"lpm" (aka "glance mode" aka "sneak peek") -> lcds need backlight & wont have completely black display06:19
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spiiroinalso even if there would be display with actual lpm, the "infrastructure" for that does not exist (it would need to go through compositor i.e. mce<->compositor ipc changes & new code at both ends)06:21
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* blap sings the Ren and Stimpy "Log" song... "It's SystemD, it's SystemD! It's big, it's heavy, it's wood! It's SystemD, it's Systemd, it's better than bad, it's Good!"07:18
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nthnI've found that 99% of people who take issue with systemd don't actually understand what it is, what it does, or the awful and outdated state of the things it deprecates07:30
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blapI've found that 99% of people who vociverously defend systemd don't actually understand what it is, what it does wrong, or the reliable, simple state of the things it corrupts07:35
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r0kk3rzive got other things to do than worry too much about what init system i use :P08:53
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blapme too09:40
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blaptango_:  you there?09:49
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tango_blap: yup10:22
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blapcousin dropped off package, insured for 500euro10:26
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tango_blap: excellent, thanks10:45
nh1402[m]"Sailfish 3 will be rolled out in phases during Q3/2018 for all licensees and customers."10:45
r0kk3rzis that a gpd pocket thing10:46
r0kk3rzoooh new qt10:47
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tango_I don't suppose there's any chance of it running on the first one, is there10:48
r0kk3rzrunning what?10:48
r0kk3rzi dont see why not10:49
tango_what's the landscape phone in the image?10:49
r0kk3rzbut you wont get a lot of those goodies10:49
tango_the one with the qwerty kbd10:49
r0kk3rzlike fingerprint, or ble, or updated dalvik10:49
nh1402[m]Gemini PDA to run Sailfish mobile operating system10:50
nh1402[m]"feature" phone support10:50
tango_r0kk3rz: updated dalvik was the one I was interested in10:50
tango_are the hw requirements that prevent it?10:50
r0kk3rzyeah that seems unlikely10:50
r0kk3rzbut maybe10:50
tadzikoh boy10:50
tadzikI can't wait for 202010:50
r0kk3rztango_: kernel version mainly10:51
nh1402[m]tango_: Gemini PDA  is the landscape device10:51
tango_nh1402[m]: thanks10:51
tango_r0kk3rz: i.e. binary blobs for the hardware not being supported in newer kernels?10:51
r0kk3rzyeah basically10:52
nh1402[m]"30% faster performance"10:52
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locusfwonder if its mesa or libhybris10:55
tadzikor libmarketing10:56
r0kk3rzdid the gpd pocket thing come with android?10:56
r0kk3rzah so it did10:58
r0kk3rzlocusf: id expect hybris tbh, because of dalvik support10:58
r0kk3rzalthough, its missing from the pictures so maybe not10:59
nh1402[m]probably too early in the porting process for it11:00
r0kk3rzor they didnt want to license it11:01
nh1402[m]so is that "feature" phone support mean they're working with Nokia?11:02
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nh1402[m]because that's the 3310 in the picture I think11:03
r0kk3rztheres no brand on it though11:03
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tadzikah, the new 331011:09
tadzikI got very confused for a moment there11:09
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tortoisedochooray! \O/ a new release of SFOS coming up :D11:09
tortoisedoc(in q3 2018 but still)11:10
tadzikyeah :)11:10
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tortoisedocwonder what the changes are11:11
tortoisedocui mostly?11:11
tortoisedoc(like for SF 2.0)11:11
tadzikmostly backend work from what the post suggests11:11
tadzikwell, the site11:11
locusfand waiting for another wailing and moaning about how we can11:12
locusfcan't roll back to previous release and the new ui sucks11:12
tortoisedocgotta love evolution eh :D11:12
tadzikwell, it's just mutation unless it survives better ;)11:13
tortoisedocor mutates again ? ;)11:13
tortoisedoclike meego -> sfos, that was a mutation too11:13
* tortoisedoc wonders when itll grow legs11:14
r0kk3rzupdated multitasking interface apparently11:14
r0kk3rzso that could be interesting11:14
tortoisedocheres to hope they push it to xperia as well11:15
tortoisedoccause that's my phone currently :[11:15
r0kk3rzwhy wouldnt they?11:15
tortoisedocnever say never :P11:15
tortoisedocalso, sfosx == sfos -> is not clear yet11:15
tango_blap: btw see if you can get the tracking number, I'd appreciate it if you can send it to me via email11:15
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r0kk3rztortoisedoc: wat? yes it is don't be an idiot11:15
tortoisedocjust nitpicking really  ^^11:16
tortoisedocshould upgrade my OTH to newest sfos11:16
blapok same email as paypal addr?11:16
tortoisedocto see if its even faster11:16
r0kk3rztortoisedoc: whats an OTH?11:17
tortoisedocargh ;_;11:17
tortoisedocgotta get myself a regex for that and then a plugin to fix it in irc :D11:17
pketoupgrade TOH?11:19
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rubdoswait 3.0 is there?!11:19
rubdos>  New security architecture -- now now, app separated right?11:20
* rubdos can only hope11:20
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nh1402[m]someone tested polkit I think some time ago, maybe it's that11:24
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nh1402[m]I think it was polkit anyway11:24
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* tortoisedoc off to mer git repos11:27
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tortoisedocBuilt-in hardware keyboard support -> ones got to love that11:30
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tortoisedocSticky App Grid11:30
presentHi guys!11:30
presentI want to work on a Spotify application with the latest API from Spotify.11:31
r0kk3rzlibspotify? i think the general gist is 'dont'11:31
Liekerubdos: there's an "app access control" menu item in the sailfish 3 video11:32
presentI need to fight with Oauth2 now.11:32
leszekI think we will see some of the improvements for SFOS 3 also in 2.2 like encryption support in the UI11:32
nh1402[m]it was mentioned in this meeting,
leszekalso notifications will be different. Maybe configurable for certain apps11:33
nh1402[m]I say some time ago I didn't realise it was September 201611:33
presentI found this library : But the "Client Secret" is written in the code... Do you know If I could use something like this?
leszektime flies11:33
rubdoscool, Lieke :)11:33
zGrr... time leaks.11:34
r0kk3rzpresent: yeah i dont think theres currently a good way to store client keys11:34
r0kk3rza few other people have done oauth2 things though11:34
lorde_kumamon[m]tadzik: what's happening in 2020?11:35
presentr0kk3rz: There isn't any official application detailing how to use Oauth2 in SailfishOS?11:35
r0kk3rzpresent: none i know of11:35
tortoisedocpresent : Oauth2 is supported  in qt 5.811:35
tortoisedoci wonder if backporting would be a pain?11:35
tortoisedocgiven its network traffic, it *should* be straightforward11:36
* tortoisedoc ducks11:36
presenttortoisedoc: I'm not sure that will solve the client secret trouble11:36
tortoisedocpresent : qt will solve it for you?11:36
r0kk3rzthe client secret isnt *that* secret anyway11:36
tortoisedocpresent : at least you wont have to use the pipacs11:37
presenttortoisedoc: Yes Backporting the lib will be better for me when SailfishOS will go for 5.911:38
tortoisedocpresent : good luck for that :p11:39
presentI thought was meant for solving this trouble11:39
r0kk3rzpresent: thats currently not used in sailfish11:41
tortoisedocoh the braveness of putting crypto and dbus in the same paragraph11:42
tortoisedocthere :)11:42
present"It is critical that developers never include their client_secret in public (mobile or browser-based) apps."11:42
M4rtinKsailfish-secrets looks interesting & rather actively developed, nice :)11:44
tadzikLordeKumamon: I was joking about release delays ;)11:47
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beidlreally loving the outlook for Sailfish 311:52
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andrewalkerI have mixed feelings about the announcement. It seems they're trying to do so much, make a major redesign without having the proper basics in place. Or maybe it's just a number and a marketing strategy, in which case I'm less concerned :)12:02
andrewalkerI also dislike how vague they often are. Updated Android, updated Qt... Which version are they targeting?12:03
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wdehoogpresent: you left but maybe you read the logs: I once played with the lib you mentioned see
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beidlandrewalker: certainly sounds awkward without the full details, I'll give you that, but what they are talking about here are long overdue features12:42
beidlandrewalker: android version might be on a per-device basis, qt I'm sure they might want to target the LTS12:42
andrewalkerfair enough12:43
r0kk3rzandrewalker: i wouldn't expect such details in press releases, but we'll find out later in a meeting12:44
beidlr0kk3rz: trying to be sneaky, eh? :P12:44
r0kk3rztbh im surprised they mentioned 'upgrade qt' as a marketing feature at all12:45
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r0kk3rzobviously they wanted to pad out the announcement of what will probably be a fairly minor change12:46
andrewalkerr0kk3rz: that makes sense. I know they don't *have* to tell everything, especially not in a marketing feature, it's just a bit enticing to our curiosity I guess :)12:46
r0kk3rz5.9 seems like a reasonable upgrade candidate12:46
andrewalkerthat would be cool12:47
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andrewalkerI hope it really is a fairly minor change. If it gets some extra attention from people outside, I think it's all great.12:47
r0kk3rzi dont think it will be like the 1x-2x ui revamp12:48
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tortoisedocis 5.9 lts+12:49
tortoisedocwhat Im more concerned is12:49
r0kk3rzit is12:49
andrewalkertortoisedoc: yes:
tortoisedocthey have a touch-less ui for feature phones12:50
tortoisedochow does that relate to the exisitng apps in harbour?12:50
tortoisedocwhat kind of adaptations are necessary?12:50
tortoisedocwhat's the integration path?12:50
tortoisedocso from a developer's standpoint :)12:50
r0kk3rzits a feature phone, what apps?12:50
tortoisedocr0kk3rz: like the android ones they claim to have running on a peature p0ne :D12:51
r0kk3rzi doubt there will be an app store at all12:51
r0kk3rztortoisedoc: it says 'few selected'12:51
r0kk3rzso its not generic android compatibility12:51
tortoisedocnot even mentioning future apps; think about the existing ones12:51
tortoisedocand "selected" means what?12:52
r0kk3rzchosen by jolla12:52
beidlr0kk3rz: well, upgrading Qt + including WebEngine support afaics is a good upgrade to pitch12:52
tortoisedocr0kk3rz : nevermind12:52
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r0kk3rzits a feature phone, its not supposed to have general app support12:52
beidljust like with apps that support split screen I assume12:53
tortoisedocgotta love your enthusiasm about limiting a device's capabilities :)12:53
r0kk3rzenthusiasm? it is what it is12:53
beidlone way or the other? :P12:54
tortoisedocyou know, nokia had feature phones which could download apps from ovi store iirc12:54
tortoisedocand we are talking symbian12:54
beidlgood old days12:54
tortoisedocare you implying sfos is on the same level as symbian? :P12:54
tortoisedocsorry just poking you :)12:55
r0kk3rzim not implying anything at all :P12:55
tortoisedocso i thought ;)12:55
r0kk3rzthat was then, now in 2018 if you were making such a device, why would it have apps?12:56
r0kk3rzwe have app friendly devices already12:56
beidlwhy shouldnt it though?12:56
tortoisedocthats the same ideology that doomed meego no?12:56
tortoisedoc"why make a new os"12:56
beidlI guess the intention with meego was the merger rather than the creation of a new os12:57
blapanything to get away from that name12:57
beidlalso remember, those were different times, you couldn't build products on top of all those other existing things we have now12:59
tortoisedocbeidl : merger?12:59
beidlintel + nokia working together with their existing code bases12:59
beidlor what exactly do you mean?13:00
tortoisedocah ok source code merging; but the fact it turned into a failure sealed it's fare no?13:01
blapintel's goal was always to scuttle it13:01
tortoisedocI mean; it wasnt meant to fail from the beginning?13:02
beidltortoisedoc: mer and sfos came out of this, aint it?13:02
tortoisedocyes of course :)13:02
beidlthis wasn't a fail in any way13:02
beidlnatural progression13:02
r0kk3rztortoisedoc: i really dont get what you're trying to get at13:02
beidlblap: yep, damn scuttlebuttling13:03
tortoisedocbeidl : but I mean, if the merger was the point of meego, the only one profiting from it is Intel; as Nokia Devices does not exist anymore13:03
tortoisedocso from Nokia's standpoint it couldnt have been "just" a merger issue13:03
tortoisedocthats what I mean :)13:03
r0kk3rzthe mismanagement of nokia is ancient history13:03
beidltortoisedoc: aren't you mixing up to different timelines?13:03
tortoisedocbeidl : hrm ?13:04
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tortoisedocr0kk3rz : just drawing silver lininigs on similarities in history nothing else13:04
beidlwhat does the meego emergence have to do with nokia or intel now?13:04
tortoisedocmeego was the result of nokia and intel?13:05
tortoisedoc(working togethre)13:05
tortoisedocso im failing to see the incentive for nokia and intel on working together on the code base; if then they are not around to use it anymore?13:06
r0kk3rzperhaps they thought it was a good idea at the time13:06
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beidlthey could though13:07
beidlmer in this case13:07
tortoisedocah yes13:07
locusfI don13:10
locusfI don't think there was any co-operation really13:10
locusflike a merger of moblin and maemo13:10
locusfit was rather moblin replacing maemo13:11
beidllocusf: let's just call that "merging efforts" for correctness sake13:11
locusfwell I suppose no effort was still an effort :)13:13
beidlwell, who was behind the effort and who wanted the effort to bring value though, the company or the people behind it? :)13:14
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beidlwe weren't there when those decisions were made, we could only speculate from this point on13:15
locusfthe company tells the people what to do though13:16
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locusfeven though its blatantly obvious from the architecture and source code?13:16
tortoisedoclocusf : did moblin have qt support?13:16
locusfdeb vs rpm in maemo13:17
locusftortoisedoc: no, neither did maemo13:17
locusfs60 used to have it13:17
beidlI'm pretty sure some non-technical senior manager is not going to bring up pootential merger. :P13:17
beidlpotential* lol13:17
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* tortoisedoc is still ducking so all is a-oik13:17
r0kk3rzthey might, its basically an outsourcing decision13:18
beidlr0kk3rz: could, yes13:18
beidlpoint is to distinguish between "surely never happened" and "could have happened"13:18
r0kk3rzmeh, who cares :P13:19
tortoisedocwell they didnt just outsource in the wild or? I mean, nokia had a full team of people on the project13:19
tortoisedocdevil's in the details tho ;)13:19
tortoisedocr0kk3rz ^13:19
beidltortoisedoc: no need to duck :P13:20
tortoisedocbeidl : you never know :P13:20
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tortoisedocp0nez might start flying soon13:20
beidlhahaha true that13:20
r0kk3rzthe whole thing was chronically mismanaged and nearly tanked the company13:20
tortoisedocr0kk3rz : correction, it *did* tank it13:20
r0kk3rznokia still exists, somewhat13:20
tortoisedoc(or better the fact the operation was mismanaged did)13:21
tortoisedocwell not devices13:21
r0kk3rzbut same thing13:21
tortoisedocdevils in the detailss ...:P13:21
r0kk3rztheres a big article about it on tmo13:21
r0kk3rzread that13:21
tortoisedoclocusf : were you in meego team?13:21
tortoisedocr0kk3rz : been around since 2008 am aware :)13:22
r0kk3rzthen you should know what happened already13:22
tortoisedocand why we are here? yes13:22
tortoisedocthere there13:24
tortoisedocit *is* a noklia13:25
tortoisedocdarn kb13:25
tortoisedocits a pity if they wall the apps tho13:25
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beidltbf not a lot of apps are tailored for keyboard-type input anymore13:26
beidlor navigation with a trackball13:26
tortoisedocbeidl : space for innovation?13:26
beidlhell yeah!13:27
tortoisedocback to the roots :D13:27
Acou_Bassid love a phone with a tracpad/nippe thing, like blackberrry's used to have13:27
tortoisedocforget about touchscreen!13:27
Acou_Bassi found it far easier to use than a touchscreen13:27
tortoisedocwho needs that13:27
tortoisedocbb were awesome13:27
tortoisedocn0kius : btw see picture in article it says "dedicated store" :P13:28
Acou_Bassthatd be a perfect phone for me... basically a nokia n900 but with a blackberry touchpoint (what do they even call that thing) on the side, and maybe a tad bigger :D13:28
tortoisedocr0kk3rz ^13:28
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tortoisedocfunny how the finnish article posts a picture of the nokia whilst the english one of the sony xperia13:29
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tortoisedoc(in the twitter preview i mean)13:29
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Acou_Basswas gonna say, the article has an xperia, gemini and 3310 :P13:30
Kabouik_Did anyone identify a 4.5"-or-so sized modern phone in the pictures? I'm interested in the Gemini as a replacement of my Jolla C, but not a big fan of the clamshell-only form factor, looking forward to the Livermorium device instead as my real new HWKB device. In the mean time, a small phone like Jolla 1 would be great.13:30
beidlthough would be really hard to implement something trackball-friendly for all types of apps. might need some way of screen recording and I'm sure such feature is not going to bring the necessary power13:30
beidl*such feature phone13:31
tortoisedocscreen recording hmm13:32
locusftortoisedoc: meego integration13:32
Acou_Bassive got a GPD win for hardware keyboard usage, but its a tad bulky to use as a phone (plus lack of 3/4G hardware)13:32
tortoisedoclocusf : :O13:32
beidlas google does on androids "search within apps" feature13:32
tortoisedoclocusf : respect13:32
beidllocusf is one of the elders, treat him with respect, folks!13:33
tortoisedocbeidl : dont use android so need to google it :p13:33
r0kk3rzelders? he's not *that* old :P13:34
tortoisedocoh wow13:34
tortoisedoca local search engine :D13:34
tortoisedocthats like GOOGLE13:34
tortoisedocbut on your PHONE13:34
tortoisedocteh intenetz13:35
beidlcrazy place aint it?13:35
tortoisedocsorry just hitted the worst ever article about it13:35
tortoisedoccome to think of it13:35
tortoisedocwasnt jala uspposed to have some pr about jolla at this mwc too?13:36
r0kk3rzits only day 113:36
beidlregarding internetz:
locusfdamn its been 8 years since the project at meego integration started13:36
locusfand yeah indeed I13:36
locusfnot that old13:36
tortoisedocr0kk3rz : i thought it was over already xD13:37
beidllocusf in the grand scheme of the channel title, namely sfos, you could be considered that :)13:37
tortoisedoclocusf : age is earned remember ;)13:38
locusfto some degree13:38
^7heoCelcius or imaginary?13:38
tortoisedocto all degrees if you mind me; either through owrk or time ;)13:38
beidlfairytale numbers13:38
tortoisedocfairytail nr?13:38
^7heoah so texan13:39
tortoisedocfairytail -f /var/log/syslog -> all is fine13:39
^7heotortoisedoc: nope you got it wrong13:39
^7heofairytail is already -F13:39
tortoisedochmm -F13:39
^7heofairytail /var/log/syslog13:39
^7heothat's the whole point13:39
beidlshould print the text as marqueed as well13:39
^7heoalias fairytail="tail -F"13:40
^7heoto be fair, I have that alias13:40
^7heoI just call it fail13:40
^7heofail /var/log/messages13:40
^7heoworks great13:40
tortoisedoc -F     same as --follow=name --retry13:40
beidl"when you need that extra hit of following your fails"13:40
beidlhere, have a smoke dear friend13:40
tortoisedocok now i got it :)13:41
* beidl trying to make this sound like a 60s commercial13:41
^7heotortoisedoc: please not that only -f is POSIX tho.13:41
^7heoso you might want to use that alias only on GNU systems13:41
tortoisedoc^7heo thats what I usually use :P13:41
^7heonot me.13:41
r0kk3rzoh dear13:41
tortoisedocsuch heresy! :D13:41
^7heoto use GNU? correct.13:42
^7heoBut it's what's most common...13:42
tortoisedoctheres always BSD13:42
^7heoSo, gotta live with it.13:42
^7heowhat do you think I use?13:42
beidlwith the bsd kernel13:42
^7heoyeah, no.13:42
^7heoI'm not stupid.13:43
tortoisedocwonder what youd call that13:43
beidlfreebsd tbc13:43
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tortoisedockebian :D13:43
beidli'd call that good intentions13:43
tortoisedocdear god a monster13:43
^7heoWell it's kFreeBSD so...13:43
* tortoisedoc ducks even deeper13:43
^7heoThat's why I said Kebian13:43
^7heoActually it's Debian/kFreeBSD13:44
beidlhey, I'd actually install debian/kfbsd if I had a device available right now13:44
tortoisedochold on are you telling me this exists?13:44
beidlsounds good actually13:44
^7heoNah it's not so good, it's still GNU userland13:44
^7heobut at least the kernel is sound.13:44
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beidlcould switch some of the gnu tools though13:44
^7heoit's not OpenBSD by any mean tho13:44
tortoisedoci mean this is almost like crossing the streams13:45
^7heoI would run kFreeBSD with busybox instead13:45
^7heoand musl13:45
^7heobecause glibc blows.13:45
beidlnot pissing on electrical fences now, right?13:45
^7heowell, that'd be using GNU13:45
tortoisedochow did this now derail from sfos13:45
beidlright? RIGHT? :D13:45
^7heojust that in GNU, electrical fences are at 1V, 0.5A, so that people can piss on the fence without too much pain13:45
tortoisedocwell in theory13:45
^7heobecause handholding.13:46
tortoisedocmer is kernel agnostic?13:46
tortoisedocso why not openbsd13:46
^7heoI'd rather have my SFOS running with a hardened kernel, musl and busybox...13:46
beidlto the children out there: don't piss on electrical fences13:46
^7heothan anything else, atm.13:46
^7heoI think it's easier to do than any of the alternatives.13:46
tortoisedocelectric fences were cool back in the days13:46
^7heobeidl: unless it's GNU fences, they are made so that you can safely do anything with them13:47
tortoisedocwe had competitions with my friends of who would hold on to them longer13:47
^7heotortoisedoc: that explains the brain damage13:47
* ^7heo hides13:47
tortoisedocin the days of hording cows13:47
tortoisedoc^7heo not even far :P13:47
beidl^7heo: yeah well from experience I happily disagree with what you just said :)13:47
^7heowhat experience?13:47
^7heocow hoarding?13:48
beidl^7heo: doing anything with gnu tools13:48
^7heoI'm not saying they are always inoffensive.13:48
tortoisedocsomethign like that yes13:48
^7heoI'm just saying they're always intended to be13:48
beidlI'm not into cow hoarding13:48
beidlI'm hetero13:48
locusfwtf is going on :D13:48
^7heoto each their own13:48
tortoisedochow about hoarding gnu's13:48
tortoisedoclocusf a short trip on memory lane :P13:48
^7heotortoisedoc: I leave that to the GNU zealots13:48
beidlnot a lot around though13:49
^7heoaround here or generally?13:49
beidlVM replicas all over13:49
locusfoff-topic doesn't begin to describe this :p13:49
tortoisedocyeah only one13:49
tortoisedocand that one doesnt show too often13:49
^7heolocusf: it's kinda on topic tho13:49
^7heolocusf: we're "discussing" OS design13:49
tortoisedocwell i tried to get it back on track with the mer + openbsd13:49
tortoisedocbut it got *ignored*13:49
* beidl has the sads13:50
^7heobecause I don't think it's a good idea to try to run OpenBSD instead of SFOS13:50
^7heodriver wise, it's too much of an effort.13:50
^7heoit might be easier to start with replacing systemd with something like s613:50
^7heothen coreutils by busybox13:50
^7heothen glibc by musl13:51
tortoisedocnono we are talking kernel here please13:51
^7heoand THEN harden the kernel13:51
^7heoand THEN maybe switch it, but...13:51
^7heotortoisedoc: show me the drivers then13:51
tortoisedoc^7heo : hybris? :p13:51
beidlkernel drivers hidden from userland perspective13:51
tortoisedocyouve got glibc?13:51
^7heonot on a single system no13:52
beidlhow secure things would be..13:52
tortoisedocopenbsd + hybris = hmmm bsdhybris13:52
tortoisedocbeidl : no insmod / rmmod13:52
beidlwhich is kinda moot on linux anyway13:52
locusfporting libhybris to musl and openbsd ...13:53
locusfI don13:53
locusfI don't even want to imagine that13:53
beidltoday is a good day13:53
tortoisedocgot a few free years beidl? ;)13:53
^7heoyeah I don't think it'd take years13:53
^7heobut definitely months at least.13:53
tortoisedocwell but13:53
^7heoreplacing systemd would definitely be the easiest part AFAICT13:53
tortoisedocif openbsd runs in kebian13:53
beidldepends on what other things thee desire13:54
^7heoor maybe that would be the coreutils -> busybox swap13:54
tortoisedocthe glibc->kernel part is done?13:54
tortoisedoc"done", that is13:54
beidla BSD based phone os.... *cough* iOS13:55
^7heoyeah, not one that does a crapload of stuff behind your back tho13:55
beidlwould be awesome13:55
^7heoand written by a company that grants root access on login when you keep pressing enter13:55
beidllike with GRUB?13:55
beidlissues on many siiids13:56
tortoisedochm so13:56
beidla bsd based phone os actually sounds really compelling, though certainly would need a systemd/launchd like init system13:56
tortoisedocoh no13:57
tortoisedocnot yet another one13:57
tortoisedocplease no13:57
tortoisedocwhats wrong with init13:57
beidlwhich *init*?13:57
tortoisedocthe one and onlyt13:57
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tortoisedocare there any others? :P13:57
beidltortoisedoc: guess how we got into this init mess :P13:58
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tortoisedoclets not go there :)13:58
beidlyes :)13:58
tortoisedocinstead lets focus on this openbsd thign13:58
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beidlhave you tried systemd-run for example?13:59
tortoisedochmm should i13:59
beidltransiently starting a service and applying resource limits is the shit13:59
beidlnot really14:00
beidljust saying that "static" inits aren't up to the task anymore14:00
beidl"static only" rather14:00
tortoisedocnothing wrong with systems doing what they're told no?14:01
tortoisedocI mean; whats the use case of "dynamically" starting services14:02
tortoisedocyoull have your browesr started. maybe14:02
tortoisedoc*browser too14:02
beidlthe point is the dynamic dependency handling, among other things14:02
tortoisedocthats more interesting14:02
tortoisedocbut still static14:02
tortoisedocI mean dependencies should not change on their own14:03
tortoisedoci correct myself : MUST NOT change on their own14:03
beidlbut dependent services could disappear14:03
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beidland this is the issue with that whole static only thing14:03
tortoisedocim not sure i grasp the meaning of "disappear"14:05
beidlfor example: updating a component which ships a service, service has to be restarted but is being depended on by other services, etc14:06
beidldepending on how many layers there are this could get tricky as hell14:07
beidlon a static only init14:07
beidlnot mining too deep into this topic :)14:07
niqtHi, i saw the announce of sailfishos, but i dont see any news for the push notifications14:08
^7heoyou might hit bedrock fast yeah14:08
beidl^7heo: the point14:08
^7heothe riddle14:08
tortoisedocthe horror14:08
beidland the ugly fuckup14:08
beidlyeah, horror sounds more reasonably14:09
r0kk3rzniqt: what push notifications :P14:09
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beidlhmm... anybody actually interested in a BSD based phone os?14:17
tortoisedocwe are all thinking about it now, thats why we are so quiet :P14:18
tortoisedocbtw stevey has done it already ;)14:18
Acou_Bassisnt iOS based on the same BSD stuff macOS is?14:19
beidlkernel is xnu thoug14:19
beidlname of osx/ios kernel14:19
Acou_Bassvery vaguely related to mach isnt it? xD been a while since i read up on it14:20
beidlso many wordplays if you understood german :P14:20
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tortoisedocwheres the wordplay in xnu escapes me :P14:21
tango_death by xnu xnu14:21
* tortoisedoc is lost14:21
beidlthe wordplays weren't written down14:21
^7heonot enough y.14:21
^7heo$(yes | tr -d '\r\n')et14:22
^7heohere you go14:22
beidlwrong kind of sacks in the mouth, eh14:22
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beidltalking about something elxe now14:22
^7heowell, #define bags14:23
beidltypedef rather14:23
^7heono, that was a prompt14:23
tortoisedoctypedef rather else14:24
Acou_Bassspeaking of err, sacks... does anyone have any protective case recommendations for the xperia X? the one ive got is ridiculously huge, wanna slim it down a bit XD14:24
beidlyou want to be too specific too fast, we haven't finished talking about BSD phone OSes lol14:24
^7heoAcou_Bass: I got some from amazon.de14:24
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tortoisedocheres a kernel even14:24
^7heoAcou_Bass: I forgot the brand, one sec'14:24
^7heoah, BEZ14:25
tortoisedocdarwin-xnu + libhybris + mer = SFOS on openbsd? :P14:25
^7heoAcou_Bass: ^14:26
^7heoI got one of each14:26
^7heobeacuse why not.14:26
Acou_Bassahh more of a leather flippy case14:26
Acou_Bassthat looks alright, think ill go for that :D thanks!14:26
tortoisedocAcou_Bass ive got a similar one and its very good14:27
beidlteh empetey hulses14:27
^7heoI also got a transparent silicon case at some local store14:27
^7heofor about 15 bucks or so14:27
Acou_Bassyeah i dont really like those14:27
beidlquestion : why?14:27
phriedI bought a leather flip case, but it makes it difficult to press the buttons14:27
^7heoit's also pretty good, but the flapping cover is nice if you don't have a hardened screen glass protector14:27
^7heophried: the BEZ ones are pretty good for that14:28
Acou_Basseecant be any harder to press the buttons than they are in my current case14:28
Acou_Bassthis case completely covers the on switch... so if/when fingerprint ID comes out for sailfish i'm screwed :P14:28
tortoisedocthe cover is actually really good for protection but very uncomfortable if you have to call14:28
phriedhere's the one I have:
tortoisedocsome come with a magnetic holder14:28
tortoisedocso that once you open it it stays open14:28
Acou_Bassyeah i dont have a screen protector (though this case has one built in)14:29
^7heoAcou_Bass: the BEZ cases are good for the buttons, the cutouts are really good14:29
Acou_Bassfair do's, ill go with it :D thanks14:30
Acou_Bassi dont really like the brown/blue one though so black it is Xd14:30
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Acou_Basswish theyd have done a purple one to match the 'flow' ambience  :D14:30
^7heoit's easier to change your ambiance honestly14:31
Acou_Bassyeh but i like flow14:31
^7heoAcou_Bass: also we ordered that: at the same time14:32
beidlnow only needs a matching screen protector, better one that doesn't flicker in wrong sunlight14:32
^7heoit's pretty cool, and also works on laptops and stuff14:33
Acou_Bassahh ive got an openSUSE one of those14:33
Acou_Bassgot it at guadec14:33
^7heoone of what?14:33
^7heoscreen foil or camera slider?14:33
Acou_Basscamera slider14:33
^7heoah yeah14:33
^7heoit's cool14:33
Acou_Bassbut uhh14:33
Acou_Bassmy laptop doesnt have a webcam.14:33
^7heobut it doesn't block infrared...14:33
^7heoyeah well, don't consider yourself unlucky.14:34
^7heoI'd love a laptop without a webcam.14:34
Acou_Bassit also has sound driver issues on the ol' linux so the microphone doesnt work either14:34
Acou_Bassspyproof :P14:34
beidlpurism laptops at least have a proper hardware switch14:35
beidlfor turning off connectivity14:35
Acou_Bassthis is a GPD win, but i basically use it as a laptop rather than a gaming device XD14:35
tortoisedocbeidl : like the phone from McAfee=14:35
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beidlhe never followed up on the phone thing, right?14:36
tortoisedocits been a year yes14:36
tortoisedocguess its gone14:36
tortoisedocwonder if he was planning to have it openbsd based14:37
beidlwhich is why I'd rather wait for the purism phone14:37
* tortoisedoc reducks14:37
beidlget out there, damnit!! :D14:37
niqtr0kk3rz: the notification can't like but it's must for the mobile14:37
r0kk3rzwe manage ok without14:38
Acou_Bassits a pretty sad state of affairs that we have to rely on hardware switches in our phone in order for them not to spy on us -_- but im glad purism are doing their thing :D14:39
beidlnotifications really need a lot of improvement...14:39
beidlAcou_Bass: blame circuitry :)14:40
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Acou_Bassnot really, blame the advertising industry that gives incentive to companies like facebook to snoop on your microphone al the time14:41
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beidltwo issues, one is technical, the other is sociial14:41
Acou_Bassi feel like fixing the 'social' aspect would be enough for most people though14:42
beidlthe social aspect is harder to fix though14:42
Acou_Bassthe majority of us arent actively espionaged by governments and hackers directly14:42
beidlremember that "ok google" on the google homescreen requires a always active microphone14:43
beidlon android14:43
beidlso there is no need for a government to spy on anybody if people are giving away their information anyway14:43
beidlin this case speech as the microphone is always turned on14:44
Acou_Bassbut my point is, if google didnt do that, the only people who would need hardware switches, are those who are actually worried about government/hackery spying, the rest of us wouldnt be actively mic-tapped so hardware switches wouldnt be needed14:44
beidlfor now14:45
beidlanyway, interesting topics today lol14:45
Acou_Bassonly reason 'normal' people really want hardware switches is because we know if we dont have them google/facebook/whoever else will just take our data as easy pickin's14:46
Acou_Basswithout them doing it, the govt would have to work a hell of a lot harder to hack me, at which point they would probably not bother, unless they had a good (in their eyes) reason to14:47
beidlyou think security aware people *want* hardware switches?14:47
Acou_Bassi think security aware people go for the low hanging fruit which is 'dont use services that spy on you in the first place' :P14:48
beidlI certainly don't but humans are greedy assholes so we need short term solutions as well14:48
Acou_Basswhich is my point, only the genuinely targetted would need hardware switches really, if the services werent monitoring us14:49
beidlask governments around the world to properly define "genuine target", I'll wait :)14:49
beidlBSD phones?14:50
Acou_Basswell, right now because we're all actively surveiled by google, the govt are happy to blanket-surveil us via google... but if google stopped, the govt would have to actually *hack* us rather than just go through google, which means theyd become far more targetted (effort vs. reward)14:50
Acou_Bassim probably wrong and missing a fairly big point here, but yeah ;D14:51
beidlmeet me on a tee for that topic :)14:51
Acou_Basswhy would you want a BSD phone for that?14:51
Acou_Bassok fine but remove the battery or leave your phone at home14:51
beidlare you allergic to electricity? :P14:52
Acou_Bassnah im just a hippie, my phone has a hank-crank14:53
beidlI should check by the channel more often14:54
Acou_Bassi dont support Big Energy14:54
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niqtmaybe i don't understand or dont' know something, but if i want that the user uses my app/service and i want send e message to this user how can i do on sailfish (if the app is closed)?15:02
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r0kk3rzyou cant15:03
r0kk3rzor you send them an sms15:04
^7heodamn, I need to learn awk15:04
beidlniqt: SFOS supports the freedesktop spec for notifications though15:07
beidlif you talk about those kinds of notifications15:08
niqtand i dont' understand why of it. On maemo we had the push notification...15:08
r0kk3rzbeidl: theres no remote api for that though, you have to cobble one together yourself15:08
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beidlyou mean as in google C2DM I assume15:08
r0kk3rzyeah basically15:09
beidlnot really the job of jolla15:09
r0kk3rzwell nobody else is doing it15:09
beidldefeats the purpose of independance, aint?15:09
beidlcertainly would need volunteers15:10
beidlwondering how ubports handle this situation15:10
r0kk3rzits not that hard do make one though
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r0kk3rzbeidl: ubuntu used some centralised service, some apache thing15:10
beidlr0kk3rz: not what I was wondering about, more like how the community handles hosting15:11
beidlhosting their own, I see15:11
r0kk3rzyeah cordova, that was it15:12
beidlcommunity effort required for running up against google and apple15:12
beidlyou are too technical right now :)15:12
r0kk3rzmeh, i dont require sfos to be mainstream :P15:13
r0kk3rzandroid and ios have the mainstream covered quite solidly15:14
beidlnot a question of mainstream or not15:15
r0kk3rzthen i dont understand your point15:16
locusfipfs pubsub ftw15:18
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blapanyone have es2gears_wayland?16:18
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Fafim currently trying to migrate all my data from my old jolla1 to my new xperia, but the backup created from the jolla1 is not visible when I try to restore it from the xperia. would anyone here know where I could find official documentation about how to do this ?16:30
fledermauscheck for related questions on ?16:31
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Faf_chthere are no helpful answer there16:31
Faf_chim here because I could not find any help on the forums16:32
Faf_chsomeone asked the same question16:32
Faf_chbut no answer for jolla116:32
Faf_chonly some people saying "it works for me with Aqua Fish or FP2 (whatever that is)"16:33
Faf_chwhich doesnt help me16:33
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Faf_chis tehre some kind of file where sailfish os store the backups list or so?16:35
Faf_chbecause even after renaming a backup created on the xperia, the backup is still listed in the "backup restore" gui16:36
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blapi dunno how to do that16:38
fledermausno idea sorry.16:40
malFaf_ch: FP2 is Fairphone 216:40
M4rtinKI've migrated from Jolla C to Xpearia by connecting to both by sshfs and copying stuff by hand16:42
M4rtinKgenerally dotfiles16:42
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M4rtinKand I think I've imported contacts via a vcf file16:42
Faf_chI would prefer not having to migrate all my contact, history, email, and everything by hand if possible ....16:43
nthnAre they on the same OS version? The backup format was changed at least once not too long ago16:43
Faf_chsame version yes16:43
Faf_chI have updated my jolla 1 to
Faf_chsame on the xperia16:44
nthnThen I have no idea unfortunately16:45
nthnYou could contact Jolla care in any case16:45
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Faf_chcould you possibly tell me what is the contact info for customer on jolla care? because all the contact link I see dont seem to be for anything related to tech support
r0kk3rztbh the 'migrate your stuff to a new device' experience is a bit neglected16:47
Faf_chBusiness and general inquiries: < this  ?16:48
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tadzikdoes anyone remember which tjc question was it that contained the shell line to unfuck the duplicate calendars from caldav?17:11
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olDid anyone have success in making anbox run on Jolla C?18:53
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r0kk3rzol: not yet, but its a possibility18:58
Kabouik_Did any one have success making it run on any device with a community port? This would be a game changer for me.18:58
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r0kk3rzsome, according to mal19:01
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Kabouik_Well then I'm very curious about it, please share mal!19:11
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malI have it running on one device, still buggy and I need to fix installation so people can use without much manual hacking19:15
malbut that is on xperia x, with properly built jolla c kernel it should be quite simple for that also19:16
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olr0kk3rz: Are there any instructions how to run anbox in Sailfish OS?19:29
olmal: What has to be changed in kernel on Jolla C to run anbox?19:30
maladd some features and maybe change the configs, not sure if it has the needed configs19:31
malthose changes for xperia x were 4 patches19:33
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Kabouik_Would be very grateful if you could open a thread on TMO about that mal, so that your work isn't forgotten deep in an IRC channel19:57
Kabouik_People could help you debug it too, or make it more generic for other devices19:58
malI have never used TMO19:58
Kabouik_I have an unused Sailfish X licence, but if community ports can use Anbox, then I'm buying an Xperia X Compact immediately to wait until the Livermorium.19:58
Kabouik_(Or then mal, just something that is not gonna be lost as this discussion)19:59
malKabouik_: the basic anbox image will be generic, only device specific things needed are the kernel changes20:00
r0kk3rzits ok, i can signal boost it and take all the credit :D20:00
malmaybe I can have a look at the installation issues after I get the new fp2 release out20:01
Kabouik_What device are you using mal?20:03
maldepends on what, I have many devices, xperia x I use for anbox testing and some other stuff, fp2 is my main sfos porting project20:05
Kabouik_I guess if you managed to make Anbox run on the X, it wouldn't be a big stretch to assume it could run on a Xperia Compact since they have a similar architecture? However the Xperia X Compact only has a community port of Sailfish, I don't know if that would make a big difference compared to Sailfish X on your Xperia X.20:07
mallike I said before, only relevant part is the kernel, no other changes are needed20:07
Kabouik_(To be honest this is chinese to me, I don't know if the kernel differ among these devices!)20:08
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r0kk3rzthey do20:09
malonly thing needed is a kernel 3.10 or newer with some patches applied, nothing more20:09
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Kabouik_I guess that means that the thing is more real than I thought. Hype is increasing.20:10
malwell it's still a very early version, quite buggy20:10
Kabouik_Alien Dalvik is still buggy, better than nothing!20:11
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olmal: My Jolla C already has kernel 3.10.49. What patches are needed to run anbox?20:56
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malI will tell when I make the anbox packages available20:59
mal2 binder patches, overlayfs and config changes21:00
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Acou_Basshow does anbox differ from sfdroid? if at all?21:12
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malAcou_Bass: it's quite different in many ways, anbox is running in a container, sf droid wasn't21:19
malalso anbox doesn't need as much patching and is not device or android base specific21:19
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olmal: What do you mean by saying "make the anbox packages available"? I already see anbox packages in and
malthose are not up to date and won't really work well21:25
olHow are your packages different from saidinesh5's?21:25
malmy new code is rebased to latest anbox version and has many other changes21:26
olAre you going to publish them in your OBS project or somewhere else?21:26
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malthere maybe, or somewhere else, I haven't yet thought about that really21:27
olCould you please highlight me on IRC when you do this? This channel has much traffic sometimes, so I don't read it all the time. Or please announce it in #anbox channel.21:29
malmy memory is quite bad nowadays so can't promise anything, I will announce it on some channels21:35
Kabouik_Well if you happen to keep a list of people to highlight, I'm in (same reasons as Ol's)!21:36
Kabouik_In any case, thanks a lot for your work mal. The moment the package is out, I'm buying a X Compact.21:37
olI think, it would be better to announce everything related to anbox in #anbox channel.21:38
Kabouik_I still think it should be relayed to TJC or TMO so that Sailfish people are aware somehow, #anbox and #sailfish members are not necessarily the same people, let alone all people that don't use IRC.21:40
malwe have mostly discussed anbox for sailfish on #sfdroid, not very often since currently it basically just me doing it21:42
olAlso, can we accelerate development by providing donations to mal?21:42
malI do not accept donations, never have, people have tried21:43
olI have financial interest in working anbox on Jolla C. Banking apps are not reliable with Alien Dalvik. Revolut sometimes stops working, and N26 has a glitch that doesn't allow me to complete registration.21:45
malI would never use banking app on my phone so I don't really think of those21:48
olI would never use them as well, but this is the only way to use Revolut. They don't even have web interface.21:48
Kabouik_What glitch ol? I have a N26 account and I don't remember if I registered with the Jolla 1 or an Android VM, it was years ago.21:49
Kabouik_But the application works fine when the Play store/Services are not messed up.21:49
Kabouik_So far.21:49
olKabouik_: After I take a picture of my passport, it asks me to enter passport number and other data. After I enter passport number, there is no way further. If I press Enter on onscreen keyboard, nothing happens.21:51
olAnd there are no other controls on screen to click. Just a field to enter passport number.21:51
Kabouik_Are you sure you don't need to use an Android keyboard for that ol? This is another issue with some (few) Android applications: the Return key is not always recognized as a "OK" key, and using an Android keyboard helps.21:52
Kabouik_I think you can try registering like that, and then revert back to the default keyboard21:52
olThey changed registration recently. Before, they required to start videoconference, but this didn't work as well, showing error message that my Internet connection is not fast enough.21:53
olKabouik_: How can I use Androis keyboard with Alien Dalvik?21:53
Kabouik_I think you need to install the Google keyboard from the Play store (or maybe Yalp) and then you can switch between the default one and the Android one using Alien Dalvik Control, an app from Coderus (I think).21:54
Kabouik_It's worth a try at least21:54
malthat reminds me that on screen keyboard is not working in anbox21:55
Kabouik_But in Anbox, I suppose the keyboard would be Android already, right?21:55
olWhy does this Google Keyboard requires access to my contacts? :-O21:56
Kabouik_Well it probably wants to get all their information and send it to Google and then ransom them.21:56
Kabouik_You'll see in the settings of this keyboard that "Send typing exceprts to Google" is enabled by default.21:57
Kabouik_It always amazes me when I use Google systems or Windows and see the default options...21:57
olNo, it's not enabled by default on my phone.21:58
Kabouik_Oh, good, it was when I installed it21:59
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Acou_Bassdo people really use android keyboards on  sailfish 0,o not sure i see the reason XD21:59
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Kabouik_The reason is just described above Acou_Bass :p22:00
Kabouik_But I use the Sailfish keyboard, just needed the Android one for a specific use once (registration with an banking app too: Curve).22:00
Acou_Bassohhh right22:01
Acou_Bassi never even considered that some apps might need to use the google keyboard to register 0,o22:01
Kabouik_I believe the issue was reported somewhere on TJC, basically Return key != OK key.22:01
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olHow to enable Google Keyboard in Alien Dalvik?22:07
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Kabouik_You need this
Kabouik_Then at the bottom you should be able to pick one of two input methods, if the Google keyboard is installed.22:08
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Kabouik_Now let's see if it can help you with N26 registration22:11
Kabouik_(For your information, I use the Sailfish keyboard in the N26 app at the moment, so you should not need the Android keyboard for any operation in their app, except maybe registration)22:11
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Acou_Bassyou all got me curious to know if my bank will lemme use their app on sailfish/alien dalvik now22:17
Acou_Bassif i remember correctly theyre one of those who dont let you use rooted/jailbroken phones so something makes me doubt this is going to work22:17
Kabouik_Hope they wouldn't require the Android keyboard anyway, I stopped using Curve because I couldn't stand the Android keyboard22:17
olKabouik_: Now I've succcessfully completed regstration. Thank you very much! :-)22:18
Kabouik_Nice! Glad it worked!22:19
Acou_Basshmm cant even get the option to download my bank's app... probably has an androidversion requirement22:20
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olOK, now anbox is less urgent for me, but still would be nice to have. N26 registration complete, Revolut works now, but I'll need backup plan in case it breaks again.22:20
Kabouik_It surely will at some point, always at the worst time (when you need the app to complete a bank wire!)22:21
olAcou_Bass: If you have Jolla 1, Alien Dalvik emulates quite old Android version there. I was unable to install Revolut there until I bought Jolla C.22:21
Kabouik_But reinstalling the application from the store usually works. Just make sure you have either Yalp or Play store working (Yalp works most of the time, but last time I had an issue, only the Play store would install the new N26 app properly, no idea why).22:22
Acou_Bassol: no its an xperia X, so that means kitkat doesnt it?22:22
olI don't know.22:23
Acou_Bassme neither i dont really use dalvik much hehe22:23
olI didn't buy Sony Xperia, waiting for dual-sim device officially supported.22:23
olOr may be I should wait little bit more until promised next generation device supported.22:24
Acou_Bassim super happy with it, finally ditched my nexus 4 :P22:24
Kabouik_I think Sailfish X has at least the same dalvik as the Jolla C, if not more recent, so it should be ok22:25
Acou_Bassi seem to remember in the release notes it said the dalvik emulates 4.4.422:25
Acou_Bassall i knows is my banks app isnt giving me the option to download via yalp store and that usually suggests android version incompatability22:26
olI'm afraid, that what matters is not Alien Dalvik version, but rather Android version Sailfish hardware adaptation for your device is based.22:26
ol*is based on.22:28
Acou_Bassyeh, only app i actually use that doesnt run on it is the mattermost one22:32
Acou_Bassmattermost classic works fine though so oh well no great loss :P22:32
Acou_Bassnot to mention i mostly just use it via bitlbee/ZNC anyway22:33
Kabouik_Mattermost performance is terrible on my Jolla C though, slow webview, and crashes so often (runs out of memory I think)22:34
Acou_Bassyeah its no better than just opening the actual website up in the browser to be honest22:34
Acou_Basswhich is why i tend to just use it via znc + IRC app22:34
Acou_BassIRC does tank my battery pretty good though XD22:37
Kabouik_Not too good for offline messaging either :(.22:38
Acou_Basswith ZNC its great22:39
Acou_Basswhen i fire IRC up, it connects to ZNC and ZNC basically just plays back all my buffers22:39
Acou_Basszero complaints about that aspect from me - just the battery life tanking that i dislike :P22:40
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Kabouik_mal, is it possible to use Google Services with Anbox? Many applications depend on it (unfortunately).23:42
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