#jollamobile log for Monday, 2014-02-03

Dima^_even I managed to keep jolla in my han in way tha current closing gesture is easy, I still agree with your idea00:02
Dima^_*hand00:02
* artemma also has problem with reaching the leftmost column of keys on keyboard. Maybe we should add a request for shortening the keyboard so that the leftmost 0.5cm are empty :)00:03
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artemmaheh, large screens are too fashionable nowadays, only Apple seems to care about a lazy or on the go phone use00:03
Dima^_horizonalt browsing!00:06
Dima^_but I miss n9's kbd00:06
Dima^_hate every time to switch between alpha-numerical kbds00:07
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Dima^_Jolla currend kbd is the worst ever00:08
Dima^_*current00:08
artemmadefault android 2.3 (and even 4.0?) keyboard was worse00:08
pdanekwait for MWC, maybe keyboard-half... (I hope)00:08
Dima^_I don't use android default kbd, but Swift for an android00:09
Dima^_its actually better than n9's one00:09
Dima^_also Swift's swiping is better00:09
artemmaSwift - yes, I think they even "adjust" button position over time. I mean they touch target area for letter M can actually be shifted from the letter M graphics depending on where you hit it usually00:10
Dima^_I also love how you can split kbd for two-thumb writing00:11
Dima^_or minimize kbd and move it around the screen to suitable place00:11
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lbtooh18:29
AL13Nyes, i just realized that you were already ahead18:29
* lbt goes to see why merbot was awaay18:30
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motiejusdo you have thoughts on what app capabilities would provide? are you thinking something akin android/tizen application permission model, or something completely different?18:31
tbrlbt: the netsplits made it stall apparently18:31
lbttbr: yep - seems so18:32
tbrlbt: in addition the config was broken as freenode rearranged DNS records, so reconnect failed18:32
* tbr fixed that18:32
lbtah - ty very much18:32
tbrnp18:32
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lbtmotiejus: so that becomes a decent question - but in what area ?  I suggest "service access". It also raises the "do we reinvent?" question18:33
lbtI say we should aim to build on best practice - there's a lot to be learned from android18:34
Stskeepzah, motiejus is here too18:34
lbthowever my UID&APPUID idea is due to us being true multi-user vs android having essentially all apps act as my UID too18:35
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Stskeepzmotiejus: a general reflection on your friend's reactions to my talk: partly due to the obscurity of the architecture diagram; but also that for many, the entry point for -doing- open source development is top down18:36
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joonahoioh crap, i'm seeing crashes when recording video with my phone, seems to be reproducable currently (tried five times in a row)18:37
Stskeepzie, from what you touch and feel - which is the ui, be it command line or a qml one; and then you want to develop further down in middleware18:37
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joonahoiwhat's the spell for journalctl to get the most detailed logs out?18:37
Stskeepzmotiejus: and well, in sailfishos, that's obviously not possible currently18:37
Stskeepzexcept through things like together.*18:37
joonahoigonna check the logs first and disk io / cpu usage next18:37
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motiejus@Stskeepz I see. Though the people I spoke about are quite low level software engineers (guys doing kernel stuff in HPC environment), so they are not really into UI. Could very likely be lack of attention.18:38
motiejus@lbt I started contemplating how can we *not reinvent* as much as possible. Though there are a few things to be fixed in Android appsec as well18:38
lbtgood :)18:39
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Stskeepzmotiejus: yeah - the kernel module thing sucks but given the amount of miracles needed to pull off a phone since april, we didn't need an additional miracle to get wifi working with oss version too ;)18:40
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lbtmotiejus: I also think we have to distinguish between functional goals and implementation technology (although the latter often influences the scope of the former)18:41
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motiejus@Stskeepz everyone understands that having blobs in kernel is quite unavoidable in these days, especially for arm devices. Heck, I even have to use some blobs on my laptop. But the UI thing something that completely obscures the whole thing. Having binary stuff on the both sides - that probably caused the confusion18:42
lbtie we want to prevent apps becoming root; we want per-app service access rules that vary per-user18:42
motiejusper-user meaning per-uid?18:42
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lbtyes18:42
Stskeepsmotiejus: yup18:42
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lbtappA running under different UIDs may be able to access contacts API in some but not others18:43
Stskeepsmotiejus: i wrote the policy, i know how painful that choice is.. in the end, the motivation there is why open source a large amount of middleware and core: to make it possible to build all sorts of devices on18:43
Stskeepsmotiejus: ubuntu touch was practically a QML mockup in short time, on existing middleware18:43
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Stskeepsso what we do is be beneficial for open source.. but in a bit longer term18:43
Stskeepsfor when people want to do other things than phones - anybody can do a good UI with the middleware and core that's published18:44
* lbt also doubts we could manage the UI in a really open/contributive manner - we'd have to be far too dictatorial18:44
Stskeepslet's see.. i have hopes18:44
motiejus@Stskeeps @lbt I really love the discussion, must leave now. Hope to continue later today.18:45
lbthell our UI designers drag our devs all over the place!!18:45
Stskeepsmotiejus: see you!18:45
lbto/18:45
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joonahoishieet, now i'm in the boot loop18:45
joonahoii guess it's not ok to pull the battery off18:45
Stskeepsjoonahoi: how low was your battery?18:46
joonahoihmm, wow.18:46
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joonahoiyes, exactly18:46
joonahoiit did show 48% previously18:46
joonahoii just plugged in the charger18:46
joonahoinow it booted up and shows 4%18:47
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joonahoithe camera shutdown must have been related18:47
joonahoinot being able to draw enough power18:47
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Turskii haven't had those shutdowns for many days now18:48
Turskioh, this wasn't about shutdown18:48
joonahoithis isn't the same as the previous one18:48
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AcceI had some shutdowns too, when I tried to take video before January update, haven't tried since18:49
joonahoiactually it was, originally. but seems to be related to whatever service is responsible to report the battery state18:49
joonahoinow while i'm plugged in to charger, taking video doesn't shut me down any more18:50
Quujoonahoi: shutdowns only happen on battery18:50
Quuand screen open/on/running/whatever18:51
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joonahoiyup, the camera must have been drawing too much power at that point18:53
joonahoihowever there's a bug with indicating the battery level, i just don't know yet how to reproduce it18:53
Quuiirc the battery level is refreshed every 5 minutes if there are enough battery left18:54
Quuthe lower it gets, the faster refresh rate gets18:54
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motiejus@lbt there is one addition I feel lacking in Android: stub results from system services, configurable.19:12
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motiejusfor example, app might request "wipe device" privileges, and it's up to a user if she wants that to be a stub or a real 'wipe'. same with address book: should app have an empty list granted, or a real address book?19:13
motiejusreal device wipe is a true use case: if you install Exchange on Android, it's a privilege it requires. And android actually implemented it. So if you want a company calendar on your cell, you have to agree that Exchange server you are binding into can wipe the device any time.19:13
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motiejussimilarly goes for Twitter app asking permissions to network + sms messages. You can't run twitter without accepting that requirement; however, Jolla could take one step further - make it optional.19:14
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motiejuss/jolla/sailfish19:14
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joonahoiQuu: mine was ticking down during the day, it's not like it got kinda stuck there.19:19
joonahoijust seems like it has been calculated wrong at some point19:19
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Stskeepspull battery 10 minutes19:21
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joonahoiit's currently charging, should i charge it to full first?19:21
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sledgesmotiejus: "fake/empty address book" was mentioned during roundtable, sadly you had to leave before the talk. but this certainly marries with your idea and is on the list of PoCs in minds19:25
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motiejus@sledges ok. that implies we have to do some permission control on the receiving (service) side. And I am pretty sure this will be difficult to express in polkit/dbus. :-)19:26
motiejuss/And/as19:26
jubo21st non-jolla made app19:39
jubo2YLE Radios19:39
jubo2not the 1st made but the 1st to be not made by Jolla19:39
jubo2that I've installed19:39
jubo2So I have a phone that I can ssh into but no email nor synccable calendar..19:40
jubo2I work on that tomorrow19:40
jubo2I'm not going to bitch "FIX MAH JOLLAHH!!" tonite19:40
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jubo2If this thing had a good, consistent, helpful and well working unboxing experience who knows how far it would go19:44
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Quui had.19:44
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jubo2that 200M€ that the capital investor put in a half-a-year ago might turn to 2B€ or more19:44
jubo2I personally thinks there should be folders for sms like in old style phones there was19:46
jubo2especially to store the "drafts" in draft folders, not lose it beyond ability to recover what was already written19:46
jubo2this has happened I think twice to me19:46
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jubo2I can apparently ssh into my phone if I figure out an public IP adress but I cannot read my email nor sync my calendar.. but this was the stuff I'm not going to bitch about tonite19:49
jubo2that ssh thing would be fun to try.. I assume I need to run some command in the shell to make a ssh password19:49
cb400fnope, just tap around in the settings19:50
cb400ftap, tap.. done19:50
cb400f(developer mode settings that is)19:50
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jubo2cb400f: but I don't have a password nor a username19:52
Yanielthe username is nemo19:52
Yanieland the password is set in settings19:52
jubo2devel settings it is..19:52
Yanielin case you never looked19:52
jubo2my Active Sync activation is hanging.. need to reboot the phone19:53
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jubo2all the adresses in the development mode are starting with 192.168. which as I know from studies cannot be routed from or to the internet19:59
jubo2how do I find my external IP address ?20:00
jubo2or use USB, bluetooth or wlan to access the ssh20:01
M4rtinKtry ip a from the terminal ?20:01
jubo2M4rtinK: yes20:01
jubo2both20:01
Quu"whats terminal?"20:01
M4rtinKa type of a bus or train station20:02
Quuclose enough20:02
motiejus@M4rtinK thanks, never thought about that meaning20:02
M4rtinKthat only has the road/tracks going in from only one side20:02
jubo2M4rtinK: hold on.. which terminal, one on netbook or one on the phone20:02
M4rtinKjubo2: the phone20:02
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jubo2if latter what command I type into terminal to get my IP address20:02
M4rtinKalso, there is an app that can do that20:03
motiejus@jubo2 "ip address"20:03
motiejusor `ip -4 ad`20:03
jubo2I'm on wlan20:04
jubo2I think I need to change to HSPA+ modem20:04
jubo2how do I do that?20:04
* jubo2 sips his chillin' out beer20:04
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Teguexternal ip? then use whatismyip or similar web service, for example20:05
Tegu"ip address" command shows the local ip (if you're behind a NAT)20:06
Yanieland if you are behind NAT there is not much you can do unless you can set up port forwarding on your router or know someone who can20:08
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jubo2I got ip number from whatismyip.com but ssh'ing in gives a timeout20:09
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qqKwhenever i have an intenet connection, my setings app says "syncing" - which always fails, the tranfers menue shows a mail icon - does anyone know the reason for this?20:09
Quujust use the wlan ip..20:09
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Tegujubo2: as said, you need to set up port forwarding in order to connect from outside the local network. (given that you can access the NAT settings)20:11
Sail0rjust install ip address from store20:11
Sail0rand you see your local ip on cover20:11
QuuSail0r: for some reason, he wants to use external ip to connect20:11
Sail0rwhy does anyone want that? :x20:12
slatewants to play with fire20:12
Sail0rcool20:12
Sail0r^^20:12
juboxiSail0r: installing ip address from Jolla store20:13
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jubo2I'm in.20:14
Quuthats what she didnt believe20:15
jubo2The netbook was on wrong wifi that's why the NATted 192.168. address wouldn't work20:15
jubo2so now what..?20:15
jubo2'sudo rm -rf /' ?20:15
Quuthat still wont work20:16
jubo2old joke is getting older20:16
Quulike yesterday when you asked the same20:16
jubo2Quu: yeah.. I know.. succkksy of me20:16
YanielI actually did that pretty recently20:16
Yanielon a ubuntu laptop20:16
jubo2Yaniel: did it void the warranty ?20:16
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Sail0ra dd is sometimes more effective20:17
Sail0r^^20:17
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slateSail0r: ye and not so known ;)20:18
jubo2'dd if=/dev/null of=/dev/sdb' ?20:18
lbtmotiejus: on the 'fake contacts'. it seems to me that if an app declares it wants your contacts then you have a choice whether to allow it or not. If you don't want that then don't use the app.20:18
Sail0rif you find dev/sdb on a jolla ^^20:18
Sail0rbut you could also smash it against a wall20:19
Sail0ror put it in a microwave for a while ^^20:19
Quuor poop on it20:20
Sail0ror make the "will it blend?" test :P20:20
Sail0ror just send it to me :P20:20
Yanielthe blending contest between iPhone 5S and 5C was hilarious20:20
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jubo2I find wasting of useful resources discourageable20:23
jubo2What is the point of putting phones in blenders?20:23
M4rtinKwe have a nice "delete all" button in the Fedora installer just for this occasion :)20:23
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jubo2Debian FGJ20:24
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motiejus@lbt I understand your point of purity. However, in case of twitter or exchange client, you often have a choice between convenience (calendar on the phone) and security (wiping the phone/twitter reading sms)20:25
jubo2I have install guide book for RedHat 5.2 here.. Bought it in '9820:25
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motiejusof course I have a choice. I can have a second device for "crap" like calendar and twitter (which I do in fact).20:25
lbtmotiejus: yep - but otoh there's an ethical/trust thing here. If we lie to the app-developers on your behalf then why would we not lie to you on the app-developers behalf20:26
lbtdisable access to contacts - sure, we did that ;)20:26
lbtjust looking at a slippery slope I think20:27
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viviahow about... "this app wants to read my contacts? sure, here's an empty contact list, i'll pretend i don't have saved any"20:27
viviawould such a thing make sense?20:27
lbtvivia: yep - I hereby promise to lie for you...... question ... do you trust me now?20:28
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motiejusif app developers want to have access to sensitive data, they should make user believe user benefits from it. Alternatively, if you see trust/ethics as a problem, we might not lie at all: just return errors instead of empty list if user asks for it.20:28
lbtI agree it is painful - I too live in a world where I have to use facebook for pragmatic access to my chosen social hobby20:28
lbtmotiejus: at this point in the debate I'm merely offering a point of view20:29
* artemma is honestly surprised people just don't reuse the Apple permissions system. Is there anything more convenient in mobile user space than asking for permission on first use after app had a chance to explain the reason? Why are we even discussing the alternatives?20:29
vivialbt: if you're my own device and i'm convinced that i have control...20:29
lbtartemma: I've never used an apple ... :D20:29
viviaartemma: for those of us who aren't at all familiar with the apple permissions system, how does that go?20:29
lbtvivia: then don't use apps that you know misuse your data20:30
motiejus@lbt so am I. But again, here is a point of view seemingly compatible to yours.20:30
lbt(I'm playing devils advocate here)20:30
vivialbt: i'm playing with app-specific passwords most of the time20:30
jubo2I know what the human-computer interface will look like in 5 yrs time. I gonna do something about this.. post open application to work for DNA20:30
lbt(I use adblock FWIW ... same argument applies)20:30
artemmavivia: when app tries using your photos first time, you see a system warning to allow/reject. If you reject, app cannot bug you with asking anymore, you'll need to visit Phone Settings20:31
motiejus@lbt exactly this reason (do not use the app) prevents me from having and android phone. :-) they lost a customer.20:31
viviaartemma: that sounds very nice indeed20:31
lbtmotiejus: yep - I refuse to purchase apple for similar reasons20:31
M4rtinKartemma: oh, those dialogs people just accept without reading ? :)20:31
lbtartemma: that came up at the round table20:31
lbtM4rtinK: and so did that20:31
jubo2lbt: I say screw 'em all MSFT, NOK, GOOG, AAPL and Sam sung..20:31
lbtjubo2: I thought we just did?20:32
M4rtinKlbt: yeah, I was there saying just this :)20:32
* lbt checks channel ... yep20:32
artemmavivia: M4rtinK: asking exactly on first use is crucial to the concept: app has a chance to explain the reason exactly at the moment when user has at least a chance to actually read it. Also apps have chance to work after the rejection. Didn't let access to GPS? - Okay, we'll just post images wothout geotags20:32
vivialbt: i have to admit that my main phone is still the n9, which makes things much easier...20:32
jubo2Yet I'm going to send email to school tech support desk to ask if we have Microsoft Exchange server instances available to students20:32
M4rtinKartemma: BB10 works in the same way20:32
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jubo2In the 90's I would not pay anything for any MSFT thing20:33
artemmavivia M4rtinK: imaging mitakuuluu asking for contacts permissions: You reject it, you want to be super secure. Okay, app will still work, you just want be able to import contacts20:33
artemmaimagine*20:33
M4rtinKartemma: there is more to it, IIRC -> the app _needs_ to work even if you don't grant it any permissions20:33
jubo2the 1st thing I bought from MSFT was an Win XP lisence in 2007 when I'd gotten my Intel Mac.. cost me 80€20:33
lbtartemma: the app should decide/be able to work or not according to refused permissions20:33
M4rtinKartemma: I can tell you it can't do its job but mus not crash20:33
M4rtinK*I -> it20:34
lbteg mandsatory and optional perms20:34
lbt(that makes the UI even more complex btq)20:34
lbtbtw20:34
jubo2was OEM.. I was like "Isn't this illegal" and the shoppe guy was like "If you're going to install that on a machine and one machine only this is totally legit."20:34
lbtjubo2: I bought a keyboard and a mouse. Does that count?20:34
jubo2lbt: that counts20:34
M4rtinKwell, there should be a mechanism for the app to check if the permission was granted or not20:35
viviai paid windows tax for some laptops that didn't have the OS-free option... and sadly that counts too :(20:35
lbtM4rtinK: that kind of feature needs to go to the "what do we need to do" list20:35
artemmaM4rtinK: yeah, probably app must not crash if permissions are rejected20:35
jubo2I run 3-4 Debians, 1 Win7 and One Sailfish20:35
M4rtinKso that it can display something like "there would be a map, but you decided to not allow positioning so here you have a funny cat picture"20:35
lbtanyhow I'm updating 3D dice atm20:35
* lbt waits for the no-advertising ban ... :D20:36
jubo2prlly gonna run NOK E75 with Series 60 version 3 as well for the physical kbrd to toss the quick sms20:36
M4rtinKartemma: I think that's one of two reasons for the all or nothing permissions on Android20:36
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jubo2*Symbian20:36
M4rtinK1) allowing lazy app developers20:36
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M4rtinKwith 2) being able to push ads more easily20:37
viviaM4rtinK: think about this scenario which i'd love: i don't want this app to search for my gps location, either to save battery, or because i'd be faster to just manually input it, or because i want to plan where i'll go next. can i manually input the location and let the app act like the gps found it?20:37
artemmaM4rtinK: I think Android permission system is harmful and hope Jolla won't adopt it. With Android system very few readers read and even they.. mostly accept anyway if they want to have a look at the app20:37
M4rtinKvivia: thaths the third option - granted/not granted/fake20:37
jubo2vivia: GPS ( not A-GPS ) is a non-network system way of finding your location20:38
viviaM4rtinK: yeah that would be awesome <320:38
M4rtinKvivia: would be rather #unlike BTW20:38
viviaM4rtinK: why?20:38
M4rtinKI don't know about any production platform supporting this20:38
viviaahhh in that szense20:38
vivia-z20:38
viviayeah20:38
motiejus@vivia it's completely up to the app creator to do this. In fact, in Android I believe it can be quite easy to generalize.20:38
jubo2i.e. you don't need to do it like this: #1 "Dear, network, where am I?" but you can just #2 "According to data and computation I am here."20:38
M4rtinKstill, might be a bit complicated to get right20:38
M4rtinKbut kinda fun due to all the ways that could be used to fake the data :)20:39
M4rtinKand you can have the warm feeling that right at this moment you are poisoning someones data mining operation :)20:40
jubo2xexexe20:40
viviamake it much easier to e.g. look for a restaurant near the hotel while still in fosdem venue20:40
viviaor "don't bother looking for my location, i want to see how to get from A to B"20:40
lbtif (havePerms("GPS") { ... } else { interactWithUser(); }20:40
viviaM4rtinK: or maybe you're denoising it20:40
viviawhat should matter to the data mining operation, the user's actual location right now, or the location the user wants to use instead?20:41
M4rtinKvivia: yeah, all Jolla users living on the north pole :)20:41
jubo2so what fun is being able to ssh in.. can I play nethack ?20:41
Yanielif you install it20:42
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M4rtinKofftopic: both set location & search around map-view already works in the old modRana interface on the N900 :)20:42
YanielI can think of a whole lot of fun besides nethack20:42
jubo2Yaniel: you know what would rock.. a VNC20:42
Sail0ryou are using debian and see no benefits in sshing to your phone? @ jubo2 ^^20:42
viviascp-ing files to your phone is much faster than bluetooth-ing them20:43
YanielVNC? meh20:43
jubo2Sail0r: you are right. vous avez raison20:43
M4rtinKyeah, like running a different OS (emacs), completely with a nice editor inside it (vim) ! :)20:43
Yanielmost of the time anyway20:43
M4rtinKboth are available from the mer-tools repo20:43
jubo2Yaniel: If you could use the calendar over VNC with laptop20:43
viviaM4rtinK: emacs in vim? just a nicer platform to run gedit or what? :)20:43
Yanielsystemctl enable brain.service; systemctl start brain.service20:43
viviaM4rtinK: and also i live a bit far from the north pole, and yet i'm tempted to port some free alternative to swype into jolla... then buy one <320:44
jubo2how impossible it would be to run X on a phone and have VNC access to a GUI ?20:44
Yanielwhy would you do that20:45
Sail0ryou invented n900 :x20:45
viviajubo2: you mean like  http://n9-apps.com/presence-vnc ?20:45
jubo2holy baby jesus poop20:45
viviathe 770 could do that many many years earlier20:45
viviaexcept the 770 wasn't a phone :)20:45
jubo2shit doesn't make sense.20:46
jubo2it makes fertile soil.20:46
Sail0ralso the windows xdas and so on could do that ^^20:46
vivianice channel, cheers to whoever brought me here (i still don't know who that was, lol)20:46
Yanieljubo2: it is possible to run X as a wayland client20:46
Yanielso in theory....20:47
Yanielbut don't come here complaining about it :D20:47
jubo2Yaniel: and I don't have any idea what wayland is20:47
viviayo dawg, we put some X in y our wayland20:47
Stskeepswe removed libx1120:47
Stskeeps:P20:47
Yanielwe can put it back!20:47
Yanielwe have the technology20:47
Stskeepshehe20:47
M4rtinKwe'll get GTK working sooner or later, I tell you! :)20:48
Yanieljubo2: then better read up, because what you asked was nowhere near a good idea20:48
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Yanielbetter use some CLI to poke stuff or...20:48
Yanielget a damn server to sync with20:49
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jubo2I don't want to sponsorship MSFT any more then I need to to have Excel, Word and PowerPoint20:50
jubo2I guess I want CalDav implemented20:50
viviajubo2: +1.... in fosdem i heard that it's on the way... right people?20:50
jubo2the I can sync my Linux calendar with my other Linuxen devices yes?20:50
YanielI want caldav too20:51
Yanieljubo2: nno20:51
viviajubo2: do you have your own caldav server?20:51
dunpowncloud support?20:51
jubo2vivia: no but if it's Free Libre or Open Source Software I can run it on one of my servers20:52
Yanielowncloud would be cool20:52
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viviajubo2: sure, sogo offers a nice web interface apart from the caldav syncing20:52
viviaa bit slow but meh :)20:52
jubo2vivia: startpaging that20:53
viviaglad to be of help m(_ _)m20:53
jubo2vivia: thanks, shukran, shukran, SoGo sounds just like the thing I'm looking for20:54
viviajubo2: where are you from? :)20:55
jubo2vivia: Finlan20:55
viviajubo2: then why thanking me in arabic? or isn't that arabic?20:55
jubo2vivia: yes ar."Shukran" == en."Thanks"20:55
viviaok :)20:55
viviaand fi."Kiitos"?20:55
jubo2and "Allahu Aqcbar!! Allahu Aqcbar!!" is always shouted a even number of time if Syrian20:56
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viviaand now i'm going to sleep... hyvää yötä was it? :)20:58
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jubo2vivia: yes. hyvää yötä20:59
jubo2vivia: where you from?20:59
tango_hm phone seems a little too sensitive to rotation, can this be tuned?20:59
viviajubo2: greece :)21:00
jubo2vivia: cin cin21:00
vivia:)21:01
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lbttango_: you can implement denoise filters in the sensors21:04
tango_lbt: so each app has to do it by itself?21:05
lbtwell, yes :)21:06
lbtyour app may need different things to mine21:06
tango_I thought it got the signal about oritentation change from the OS21:06
jubo2vivia: in Finland we say fi."ole hyvä" == en."Be good." when we mean to say "You're welcome."21:06
lbttango_: ok, orientation is different - there's a simple orientation interface21:06
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M4rtinKBTW, there was an interesting talk about (android) sensors on FOSDEM21:07
tango_lbt: I was talking about that21:07
tango_it seems to be too sensitive21:07
lbtbut how do you mean sensitive?21:07
slateM4rtinK: summarize?21:07
M4rtinKon Sunday, actually in the same room room as the Sailfish talk on Saturday21:07
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tango_lbt: I'm getting this impression, particularly while browsing21:07
tango_it tends to go landscape even if in my opinion the phone is still upright21:08
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M4rtinKslate: that it is nice to have a microcontroller that fires interrupts on given events (I believe that's how the knocking to wake works)21:08
lbttango_: worth raising on together21:08
lbttango_: it may need a bigger margin21:08
M4rtinKslate: and that you can do sensor fusion/virtual sensors21:09
lbteg rotates at 50degree, not 45 -21:09
M4rtinKslate: like for example augmenting compass data by gyroscope data21:09
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tango_lbt: I get the feeling it turns at much less than 4521:10
tango_lbt: something like 10 or so21:10
M4rtinKslate: or getting better movement direction info by combining GPS bearing, magnetometer & gyroscope21:10
M4rtinKslate: (GPS-only bearing really sucks at low speeds)21:11
slateall sounds reasonable. wonder if noone else is using this.21:11
lbttango_: here it doesn't turn until you've moved about 70deg from vertical21:11
M4rtinKwould be nice to know if some of these techniques are maybe already implemented in the Jolla device ?21:11
slateOr other devices? :)21:12
tango_lbt: even if the phone is slight slanted away from you?21:13
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lbtyep - jolla browser? or webcat?21:14
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tango_lbt: jolla21:15
lbthonestly mine seems fine21:15
lbtmaybe take a pic of your device rotating the screen at a low angle21:16
tango_lbt: good idea, I'll try that21:16
lbtit seems unlikely but it is possibly a sensor hw issue21:16
lbtI also have some hacky code here which you could use to test the angles you get from the sensors21:16
tango_lbt: I'll remind you about this tomorrow21:17
tango_I'm currently in bed and the jolla is in the other room21:17
lbtok, np. if it's an issue we can do it via care and I can help with some diagnostics21:18
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clauis there a video with Stskeeps' presentation yet?21:22
clauI've seen the slides, but it's not the same thing :)21:22
M4rtinKit usually takes some time to process all the conference videos :)21:23
M4rtinKeven months on some confs, but I believe it is quicker for FOSDEM21:24
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* artemma can't find libaudioresource.h in SDK. Some special pkgconfig needed to fetch it?21:27
artemmasorry, wrong channel21:28
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jubo2hmmm... Joyce Mayer on Jesus TV21:30
jubo2she's usually pretty deep and insightful21:31
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jubo2She gathers indoor domes to her teaching21:35
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clauand she has her own private jet, just like Jesus did ;)21:37
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bennypr0fanehi, I made a backup when prompted before updating Sf to 1.0.3.8, but now I don't know where the backup was stored and how I can restore it. any ideas? backup utility in Settings only offers to create a new one, not to restore.21:44
Yaniel/home/nemo/.vault/21:45
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ShadowJKgah21:47
chem|stgeh21:47
chem|stbennypr0fane: you do see backups as long as you did not factory reset21:48
ShadowJKis there no browser with working desktop mode21:48
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raa70opera for android?21:48
jubo2I find it good to find the phone protects itself against USB threats21:48
ShadowJKraa70; nope21:49
bennypr0faneShadowJK: Firefox21:49
chem|stbennypr0fane: you need to backup .vault with all filepermissions (that does not work over mtp!)21:49
chem|stGO HOME ANDROID YOU ARE DRUNK!21:49
jubo2I used to have a Symbian Series 60 rel 3 so I know something about succkky protection of self machine against foreign dodgy motha-motha21:49
chem|stjubo2: bless you...21:50
bennypr0faneis ther any way to show hidden files in file browser?21:50
jubo2chem|st: I coulda bought iPhone 2Gs for the 480€ I coughed up in 200821:50
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jubo2for a NOK E7521:50
ShadowJKI can send desktop user agent, but css seems set to mobile still21:50
* jubo2 puts the whetstoning on repeat in #jollamobile21:51
jubo2but I had to hate AAPL21:51
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jubo2The "Our way or no way" with AAPL, it's worse then MSFT ever was21:51
clauis Opera for Android working now on Jolla? I recall I tried it a while ago and it simply crashed.21:51
jubo2and the GOOG is too dominant market position21:52
pp§21:52
jubo2https://startpage.com uses Google results but does not store IPs21:52
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ShadowJKbennypr0fane; same wigth firefox :/21:52
clauduckduckgo promises something similar21:52
jubo2One thing I must boring old irc-rerun... when Jolla enlists in stock exchange it's ticker code will be JLLA21:53
bennypr0faneclau ddg have their own search engine it's opensource too21:53
jubo2funny reference to a good Suedois film21:53
clauafaik, they are using other sources too21:54
jubo2The Jalla-Jalla movie21:54
bennypr0fanemaybe21:54
Jeszeddg is using yandrx as an source21:54
bennypr0faneI think only on request, not automatically21:54
Jeszeyandex21:54
ShadowJKclau; the one on yandex doesn't work. Opera has .apk on their webpage, that one works21:54
jubo2yandex sucks ass21:55
jubo2I have right username and right password and it won't accept21:55
clauShadowJK, thanks, I'll probably give it a try21:55
bennypr0fanechem|st: I don't understand what you said about the backup21:55
jubo2lemme tell ya'all..21:55
bennypr0fanewhat is mtp?21:55
claumedia transfer protocol?21:55
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bennypr0fanemy question about restoring an existing backup21:56
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bennypr0fanejubo2: yandaex is a rpita21:56
jubo2When I subscribed to MSFT Office 365 subscription I had to enter my details 3 times for the machine to accept it21:56
bennypr0fanejubo2: which machine21:57
jubo2_3 times_, that's how much MSFT didn't want me as client21:57
jubo2bennypr0fane: Win721:57
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bennypr0fanejubo2: maybe it knows you like opensource21:57
bennypr0faneso it makes you pay21:57
jubo2I gonna install this SoGo server soon21:58
bennypr0fanehas anyone lost any data after updating to 1.0.3.8?21:58
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bennypr0faneI lost all my Noto (notes&Todo) content it seems21:59
claubennypr0fane, I think there were reports about lost settings for third party apps. Do a search on together.jolla.com, you should get something on the subject.21:59
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jubo2Doesn't these nubs have media rich notes system..?22:00
jubo2have audio/video/drawing/camera shot/screenshot/text hybrid  ?22:01
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jubo2I was so bored in 2008 as the NOK E75 did not provide this22:01
bennypr0fanethanks clau22:03
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Abby24 I give you some pictures. I hope you like! http://bit.do/my_videos6922:03
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bennypr0fanewut?22:03
Hartzibot22:03
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Abby69I'm sure you will LOVE MY pictures!22:04
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jubo2You guys really need DNA to hire me to develop their customer service process and whatever they feel like developing22:05
bennypr0fanechem|st: about that backup, would you mind explaining one more time what you said earlier?22:05
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jubo2World peace is attainable for 15,000,000,000€ - http://PalestineTunnel.org22:07
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jubo2If people worked 24 hrs / d it would take under 3 hrs to make that money22:09
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jubo2World total sigma/summed product22:09
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jubo2So we could have a shot at world peace in our lifetime22:10
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jubo2Trans-Palestine Express shuttle service, 50 km, 200km/h, 15 minutes travel time22:14
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jubo2only 15B moneys22:14
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raa70world peace...22:16
raa70nope22:16
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jubo2#mmm.. I'm on 2 x 2 x 333mg acamprosate22:16
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jubo2Acamprosate is a anti-alcohol craving med .. It really helps, I'm living proof :D :D22:17
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raa70well, i work at a brewery22:18
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jubo2tomorrow I will verify the all my email credentials by installing it on the new Debian7 email program22:19
jubo2I tried to extract the credentials from my Outlook22:20
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jubo2but it did not want to give them up22:20
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jubo2so tomorrow I install whatever the FF email client is called to make sure I have the datas right22:21
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jubo2whoa.. I found "fuzzy pinyin" as light up led in the UI22:28
jubo2like it's totally possible to use numbers instead of tonal marks22:28
jubo2then again the only chinese besides zh."Xie Xie" == en."Thanks" is zh."Women bu shi Ameri guo ren. Women shi Fin lan ren. Byao pai Byao pai." == en."We're not American. We're Finnish. Don't shoot! Don't shoot!"22:30
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jubo2'k .. I think I'm getting it..22:33
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jubo2the Jolla is a linux computer on HSPA+ network22:33
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Yanielnow that didn't take you long :D22:34
jubo2that's awesome but I'd rather had a calendar that syncs and email that is receivable and sendable22:36
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jubo2if the email and cal don't work the fact that I can ssh in doesn't help a toss22:36
Yanielcalendar & mail work perfectly fine for me22:37
jubo2The recommendation to get MSFT Exchange account and use that to sync calendars22:37
Yanielhaven't tried sending mail but calendar sync works in both directions and mail is received properly22:37
jubo2I thought this was Linux-Land22:37
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Yanielwell, Exchange ActiveSync is probably the single best thing microsoft have done22:38
Yanielbeats IMAP anytime22:39
jubo2MSFT can do good. I don't belive U22:39
jubo2Yaniel: IMAP may be succkky but it's not as half-as-crappy-as POP322:40
wmaroneimap may be bad, but it doesn't require microsoft permission to use22:42
Yanieland is actually supported in places :D22:42
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jubo2Yaniel: I ask tomorrow our tech support if we have accessible Exchange server instances paid by our school22:43
jubo2I tried the onmicrosoft.com free thingy but to be honest it didn't work22:44
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jubo2Yaniel: If it's legit to want MSFT goodies can we has MSFT SkyDrive for Linux ?22:46
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jubo2Can I install irssi on mah shell ?22:47
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Yanielon the jolla? sure22:59
Yanielif you find a package or build one if it does not exist yet23:00
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jubo2Jesus TV reigns23:04
jubo2awesome chant23:04
jubo2onoeonoe Israel hihhulointi is coming on next.. change da channel..23:05
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jubo2yeah.. channel 11 has Fame on23:09
jubo2a musical show from the very early 80's23:09
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jubo2I like the phone, sorta, the sshd is cool23:17
jubo2Hold on..23:17
jubo2You ready for totally crazy shit that cost few 10€s23:17
jubo24 cameras on-phone23:18
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jubo2one forward, one back, one left, one right23:18
jubo2you'd be able to 360 degree photograph23:18
jubo2I mean the cameras cost a 5-10€23:19
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jubo24 cameras of over 90 degrees vision23:20
jubo2I don't know why I give this commercial infoz up for free, I really don't..23:21
jubo2The 1st one with 4 cams of over 90-degree vision in one HW and SW package23:22
jubo2and the multi-megapixel cameras cost tens of €uroz max23:23
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chem|stbennypr0fane: there is a .vault folder in your home directory - that is the backup (git) - you need to save it somewhere else if doing a factory reset and copy it back afterwards23:24
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chem|stbennypr0fane: https://together.jolla.com/question/53/how-user-can-take-backups-out-of-device/23:26
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jubo2the foldable keyboards..23:28
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jubo2if they cost £7623:28
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jubo2to my eyes that reads "free money for anyone willing to compete"23:29
jubo2with the bluetooth keyboard and reclining solution for urr display23:30
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bennypr0fanechem|st: thanks! jubo2: what you talkin about?23:33
jubo2Jolla-brand foldable-into-suit-inner-pocket full qwerty kbrd sheer win23:33
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bennypr0fanewhere?23:34
jubo2I mean it obviously fits23:34
jubo2bennypr0fane: it connects with bluetooth and turns on everytime it is unfolded23:35
jubo2it's the most obvious "Other device"23:35
bennypr0fanegot an url?23:35
jubo2besides just a "Phone you can ssh into."23:35
bennypr0faneobviously23:35
bennypr0faneeverybody's waiting for it to happen23:35
jubo2bennypr0fane: they sell it for 7-bit ascii qwerty layout23:36
jubo2I don't think it's possible to purchase one with scandinavian kbrd setup23:36
bennypr0fanei only knew about one guy at tmo making it himself23:36
bennypr0fanejubo2: WHO sells them?23:36
jubo2bennypr0fane: It's Verbatim23:37
jubo2You remember like CD-R's and DVD-R's Verbatim, Verbatim23:37
jubo2and if the price is £76, it's screamin' for competition23:38
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bennypr0fanewell there isn't any competition so far23:38
bennypr0faneyou have a link to that?23:39
bennypr0fanethey're first, that works in their favor23:39
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bennypr0fanejubo2: if you mean this: http://www.verbatim.com/prod/accessories/keyboards/wireless-mobile-keyboard/  that's obviously too big23:42
jubo2I belive that's gonna fit in a suit's inner pocket23:43
artemmaWhich sort of #otherhalv would james bond have..23:44
jubo2if it's too big then just give up the dedicated number keys23:44
jubo2You people should just do what jubo-jubo say and fund the 15,000,000,000€ that http://PalestineTunnel.org 's gonna cost to build and operate a few years23:45
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bennypr0faneit needs to be an actualy other HALF, i.e. about the same size as the handset, not an other triple23:54
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ShadowJKthe other half would be more appropriately named the other fiftieth23:57
bennypr0faneShadowJK: hum, how'd you get that number?23:59
ShadowJKhandwaving guess23:59

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