#jollamobile log for Wednesday, 2014-04-02

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mornfallwell, if there are, working network connectivity is not one of them... :P00:18
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louisdkI'm not the biggest fan of installing Google Play on my Jolla. On the other hand I need some updated Android apps that either not present in other stores (Yandex, M1 etc.) or broken/outdated. I just want to know to uninstall Google Play again if needed.00:24
ljpmornfall: what's the issue you are seeing?00:24
mornfallljp: right now? striped wlan indicator, "connect to internet" spinning for a while not changing anything, disabling-enabling wifi + connect to internet made it work00:25
mornfallconnections disappear all the time since 1.0.400:26
mornfalland they are pretty hard to get back00:26
mornfallwlan disappears once in a while, 3G sometimes can't stay up for more than a few minutes at a time00:27
mornfallmanual connection usually works, but going back and forth in settings is sorta tedious :)00:27
ljpdo you have bluetooth enabled as well?00:29
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* pahartik runs "journalctl | grep "voice registration status is 1" | wc --lines" and gets "1021" as output04:13
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tbrhttp://www.arcamax.com/newspics/100/10028/1002801.gif04:52
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jussitbr: nice!04:55
jussi:D04:55
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AL13Nmornfall: i had this too, the trick to get the saved connections back is to turn off wifi, restart connman service and close settings app, and then start settings app again, turn on wifi and connect to a wifi, then all the wifi will come back (they aren't seen, but they do still work)06:22
AL13Nafter i do this, it takes alot longer for the issue to happen again06:23
AL13Nprobably i could reboot for this too, but ah well06:23
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mornfallyeah, I have to reboot from time to time to get it unstuck06:32
mornfallnot so cool06:33
mornfalloh, another recent mystery -- I got a missed call from a contact with no phone number06:33
mornfall(the contact did develop an empty phone field though, not sure how)06:33
* mornfall wonders if jolla advertises gtalk voice presence?06:34
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Acceit's alive!06:35
chriadammornfall: what do you mean by "the contact did develop an empty phone field" ?06:35
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mornfallchriadam: I don't remember making one, and other google-imported contacts don't have any06:36
mornfallchriadam: so I assume it didn't have one before06:37
chriadammornfall: so you're saying that a "Phone" detail shows up on the contact card, with no content in it?06:37
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mornfallit has a "Personal . Landline . Phone" item and "call" / "send sms" buttons in it, no phone number, and when I click one of them it says "invalid phone number"06:37
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mornfallit's also grown a "Personal . Address" field with "show on map" button and no other content, which opens maps with an empty search06:38
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mornfallohh, and also an empty email field06:39
mornfallstrange, pretty strange06:39
chriadammornfall: do you have developer mode enabled on your device?06:39
mornfallsure06:39
mornfallyou want the sqlite bits don't you? ;-)06:39
chriadamsomething like that, one sec06:40
chriadam`contacts-tool search <contactName>` to get the id of the aggregate contact and then `contacts-tool details <contactID>`06:41
chriadamyou'll need to be devel-su or devel-su -p06:41
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Venemo_jit seems that the jolla extremely power efficient on wifi07:17
ljp\0/07:17
Venemo_jbut not at all when it comes to cellular data07:17
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ljpwith wifi powered on too?07:19
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Sfiet_KonstantinVenemo_j: +1 about inefficiency on data :(07:30
Venemo_jljp: wifi powered off, cellular data on07:31
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mornfallVenemo_j: cellular data is hard07:39
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mornfallI think it cuts down battery life to about 1/3rd on a typical android phone...07:40
mornfallSeems to be in line with Jolla to me.07:40
mornfall(3 days on wifi, a day on cellular)07:40
mornfallmakes you wonder if the tx is powered up all the time...07:41
mornfall(I can't imagine rx on cellular taking so much power)07:42
PnuuI have cellular data always on, and I charge the phone every 2 or 3 nights07:42
joonahoiyeah, I'm running 3-4 days with 3g data always on, and wifi off that is: all the data transfer is done via mobile data07:42
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mornfallyou are kidding me... how does that work? :)07:43
mornfallmy 30 minute commute drains 10%07:43
joonahoithere must be something else eating up your battery07:43
mornfalladmittedly, it drains a lot less when it's sitting idle on a desk not hopping between base stations at 150km/h...07:44
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clau2haven't had a reboot in months, until latest update: once it just happened, no idea what caused it. second one was probably caused by camera app. it froze, then I got the dialog to close it, then phone rebooted. :(08:11
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Venemo_jmornfall, joonahoi, just having 3G data enabled isn't such a big problem. the trouble is when I also use IRC over the connection09:05
roborohi all09:05
Venemo_jhi09:06
mornfallVenemo_j: is it?09:06
mornfallVenemo_j: maybe sleep states for rx/tx are bound together?09:07
mornfalloh wait09:07
mornfallTCP09:07
mornfall:D09:07
roboroit would be really nice if in the call-log the number that a contact actually called from was also displayed... some of my contacts have 3 or 4 numbers... so in the call log I can't tell if the call was made from the office, mobile, home number, 2nd mobile etc09:07
Stskeepstogether.* ?09:07
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roborois there a tjc for this somewhere, or should I create a new one?09:08
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fluxif someone wanted to get some experience on creating automatical classification for searching&eliminating duplicates, tjc would be a fine site to try :)09:09
roborommmm a few of them09:09
stephgroboro, thought I saw something similar09:09
Venemo_jmornfall: I dunno, maybe IRC just means too much activity and too little sleep for the device09:09
mornfallVenemo_j: the actual problem is that every Rx'd packet needs to Tx the ack...09:10
mornfallVenemo_j: and sending packets on 3G is a high-power matter09:10
mornfallmaybe that's why WP8 does not allow TCP sockets in apps09:10
Venemo_jit allows afair09:11
roborommmm I may look at the code for this soon... looks like quite a few people have this issue09:11
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mornfallVenemo_j: http://www.cs.umass.edu/~arun/papers/TailEnder.pdf‎ this is quite interesting09:14
Venemo_jmornfall: afair WP allows sockets but doesn't let you keep the connection while your app is in the background09:15
mornfallVenemo_j: same thing :-)09:15
mornfallVenemo_j: what good is a tcp connection when it's cut off every time the phone decides you go to sleep?09:16
Venemo_jmornfall: url gives a 40409:16
joonahoiVenemo_j, mornfall: irc keeps sending heartbeats to determine if the connection is still up09:16
mornfalljoonahoi: even if it didn't, most IRC sessions will see more or less continuous downstream09:17
joonahoithat's right09:17
joonahoiespecially bigger channels like this09:17
oh8gnznice option could be map app could be visible even if you have screen disable after x time09:17
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joonahoimost of my other channels are remnants of 90's with very little activity09:17
mornfall:-)09:18
oh8gnzso that it wouldn't lock / disable screen when using that app09:18
oh8gnzcould be locked behind but not for that app09:18
mornfallVenemo_j: so a killer app would probably be a passive irc client ;-) obviously needs some sort of a bouncer in the middle09:18
mornfallVenemo_j: where you only send out acks once in a minute or something09:18
mornfallwell, not necessarily if someone did some TCP hacking in the kernel so you could bunch up acks for a long while09:19
joonahoiirc server will disconnect you if you hold it too long09:20
mornfallthe 12s tail probably means that irc keeps Tx on full power all the time09:20
mornfalljoonahoi: that's usually 300s09:20
mornfallit's also more or less a non-issue with a bouncer in the middle09:20
joonahoiyeah09:20
Venemo_jactually09:20
Venemo_jrecent enough linux kernel does support TCP corking09:21
ggabrielmornfall: I think what you suggests is in line with a design flaw of TCP by which you can very easily cause DOS cheaply :)09:21
mornfallnowait + cork could do the trick, I suppose09:23
pp_cork is actually pretty old09:23
mornfallyeah, seems so09:23
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mornfallthe new thing is "autocorking"09:23
Venemo_jyepp09:24
mornfall„As currently implemented, there is a 200 millisecond ceiling on the time for which output is corked by TCP_CORK.  If this ceiling is reached, then queued data is automatically transmitted.“ which is a problem though09:25
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mornfalleither way, if jolla folks could exploit this to only power up Tx for 12s out of 60s unless you are actively transferring data, that could make 3G a lot more energy-affordable ;-)09:27
Stskeepswell, there was the iphb stuff09:28
Stskeepsmoo wmarone09:28
mornfallapparently, you can shorten the 12s tail without breaking the protocol as well09:28
mornfallcutting down even more of the overhead09:29
clau2Stskeeps: of course, I will add new stuff to tjc, as soon as I have a little time.09:29
mornfall(the tailender paper is ancient in mobile phone terms... maybe it's already done that way)09:30
Venemo_jStskeeps: does iphb relate to socket connections?09:31
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Venemo_jlast time I checked it didn't09:32
mornfallwhat's iphb?09:32
mornfalloh09:33
mornfallIP HeartBeat :-)09:33
mornfallit uses netfilter09:35
mornfallthat's kinda smart09:35
StskeepsVenemo_j: there was something in fremantle kernels that let you delay TCP_KEEPALIVE packages09:35
Stskeepsiphb.c09:35
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mornfallhttps://github.com/nemomobile/dsme/blob/master/modules/iphb.c09:37
Stskeepsi'd love for somebody to resurrect that09:37
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pp_https://github.com/ewust/forge_socket might let you do some evil tricks too :-) (tho probably not that useful for a generic user-space app that wants to save battery)09:40
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Stskeepshttp://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=net/ipv4/netfilter/iphb.c;h=21112ea85f307c235f780bc2ba9dfae931d9b96e;hb=3a3263c5a914b531b6f0cce8fabd1b2a8705baa109:41
pp_if you're talking to a bouncer of some sort might as well use a mosh-like protocol to talk to it09:42
mornfallhttp://www.merproject.org/logs/%23mer/%23mer.2013-06-16.log.html hh :-)09:44
mornfallStskeeps: clearly, the kernel module only holds up keepalives...09:45
mornfallthat's far from good enough09:45
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mornfallStskeeps: well, you *could* pay me to work on it ;P09:47
mornfallalthough I am not very fond of hacking the kernel09:48
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Stskeepsthe real problem is portability i think09:48
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mornfallportability of what?09:49
mornfallthe user-level code relying on the iphb interface?09:49
Stskeepskernel side09:50
Stskeepsie, when we do a OS the last thing we want to do is to require extra kernel mdos ;)09:51
eitzeiHi, is it a known bug that when enabling wlan hotspot it makes brand new subnet? First 192.168.0.*, then 192.168.1.*, 192..., 192.168.8.*. After reboot wlan hotspot subnet starts from .0.* again.09:51
Stskeepsmods09:51
Stskeepseitzei: that's new09:51
mornfallStskeeps: you could try to push it upstream09:51
mornfallStskeeps: there are all sorts of arcane netfilter modules09:51
Stskeepssure, and see it in android 8.0 ODM kernels09:51
Stskeeps:P09:51
Venemo_jwhat's wrong with that?09:51
w00tthat it effectively isn't usable until we're all ready to retire09:52
Stskeepsnothing, just that intended effect takes a while :)09:52
w00t(slight exaggeration included)09:52
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Venemo_juntil it comes to android, you could still include it in jolla kernel builds09:52
mornfallStskeeps: you have a policy of only using kernels released in Android?09:52
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Stskeepsmornfall: in practice when you go to an ODM they'll give you a reference hw design, along with android adaptation09:53
Stskeepssay you'll like to use x11 or an upstream-only kernel and they'll ditch you09:53
Stskeeps:P09:53
Venemo_jcome on09:53
Venemo_jone small module shouldn't be that hard09:53
StskeepsVenemo_j: that's what i thought initially until i started poking around on other devices09:54
pp_if google pushed it :-)09:54
mornfallStskeeps: so that's why you use wayland/lipstick instead of the android UI stack!09:54
Stskeepsas an example, standard kernel on nexus 4 doesn't even load modules09:54
mornfalland you need sailfish to run on those kernels?09:55
Stskeepsyeah09:55
Stskeepsideally09:55
jukkareitzei: The issue with ip address pool should be fixed by this http://git.kernel.org/cgit/network/connman/connman.git/commit/src?id=60ee35f0756f7f7d63bab5c5ea652efc67e475cf The fix can be found in ConnMan 1.17 or later09:55
Stskeepsmornfall: we had a choice between layering x11 on top of android gpu drivers or wayland09:55
Stskeepswayland was easier09:55
Stskeeps:P09:55
mornfallandroid gpu drivers suck :\09:55
Stskeepswell, at least they're QA'ed and war tested..09:55
Stskeepscompared the hell i've seen on x11-egl stacks09:56
* w00t twitches09:56
Venemo_jhehe09:56
mornfallandroid phones aren't exactly renowned for stability :-)09:56
mornfall(re war testing)09:56
Stskeepsyeah, but at least they hold up a UI decently09:56
Stskeeps:P09:56
* Stskeeps puts old prototypes on fire09:56
eitzeijukkar: Thanks!09:57
w00tStskeeps: i'm still pondering what i can put mine to use as..09:57
Stskeepsw00t: willitblend09:57
w00tStskeeps: weaponry, or paperweights?09:57
mornfallI'm wondering when the intel graphics of mobile SoC's come around...09:57
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Stskeepswell09:58
roboroI put mine into a catapult... and shot it at a bunch of pigs outside09:58
Stskeepsthey put out a nice kit recently.. sec09:58
Venemo_jold jolla prototypes?09:58
Stskeepsyeah, pre-qualcomm ones, they should just die in a fire..09:58
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mornfallStskeeps: it was even worse than qualcomm? impressive :P09:58
Venemo_jauction it off on ebay, there surely will be some mad collector paying a fortune for it09:58
Stskeepshttp://www.minnowboard.org/meet-minnowboard-max/09:58
Stskeepsw00t: arnold's tank also sounds like a good idea09:59
mornfallStskeeps: well, I didn't *literally* mean intel ;-)09:59
mornfallStskeeps: just the sort of experience you have with their GPUs on Linux09:59
Stskeepsah09:59
mornfallalthough an intel-powered smartphone would be an interesting deal I guess09:59
stephgmornfall, oh no not again ;)10:00
mornfallmaybe they can chime in with something to compete against arm64 :)10:00
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Venemo_jmornfall: new geeksphone comes with intel hw10:00
Accedidn't intel make their own arm designs already10:01
stephgwhat was that Intel smartphone called, that the intel folks were doing their MeeGo stuff on?10:01
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stephgseem to remember it had 2000 in the name10:01
Waiteestephg: tizen is the os10:01
Acce> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2013/10/29/exclusive-intel-opens-fabs-to-arm-chips/10:01
mornfallVenemo_j: looks cool, but those rounded corners!10:01
pp_the aava mobile stuff?10:01
stephgWaitee, no this is waaay back when10:01
Waiteeoh10:02
Venemo_jstephg: aava10:02
stephgthat's it10:02
stephgno it was $2k wasn't it10:02
mornfallVenemo_j: so when do we see x86 sailfishos builds to run on it? ;-)10:02
Venemo_jmornfall: don't ask me10:03
Venemo_jbut10:03
Venemo_jit's not even available yet10:03
mornfall(the emulator in the SDK is x86 IIRC, so at least it builds there I guess?)10:03
AcceI'm eager to see what monster intel will create with 22nm ARM.. or 14nm even10:05
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Venemo_jAcce: hehe10:06
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Acceon the other hand they're kicking a lot of people on the butt all over the world currently :)10:08
mornfall„A Geeksphone spokesperson also said it’s in talks with Canonical and Jolla, and could offer a choice of all four operating systems – Android, Firefox OS, Ubuntu Mobile, and Sailfish OS – on the Revolution.“10:09
ShadowJKnice definition of "All four" :)10:12
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ggabrielmornfall: i'd probably get much more excited about a geeksphone running sailfish than nexus 410:13
Quusame10:14
pp_battery life?-)10:14
mornfallwell, geeksphone is something I'd be willing to buy I guess :)10:14
mornfallpp_: nobody knows10:14
mornfallit doesn't have the same prospects for say a hwkb otherhalf like jolla, but Lucy might be able to live with that (or no, I'll have to ask... if a sailfishos geekphone comes around, anyway)10:15
ggabrielwell, it's almost as achievable as a unicorn tbh10:16
mornfallggabriel: the kb toh you mean?10:16
ggabrielno, the geeksphone thing, given that it's intel10:16
ggabrielunless intel makes an effort10:16
ggabrielwith drivers, i mean10:16
mornfallggabriel: I don't really see a problem... android runs on it10:16
ggabrielfair enough10:16
mornfallso if sailfishos is supposed to run on android kernels, x86 shouldn't make all that much difference10:17
mornfallmaybe if you wanted to use non-android gpu drivers, say10:17
ggabrielfrom this height, that sounds reasonable10:17
mornfallthat'd take more effort10:17
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ggabrielideally you want to kill the dependency with anything android, bu that requires industry maturity10:17
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mornfallI don't see what GPU is it packing...10:18
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mornfallpowervr :-) SGX54410:19
mornfallprobably a slight upgrade from N90010:20
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mornfall(but yes, it's nearly 4 years old now)10:21
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ggabrielnot sure the gpu is one of my priorities in a smartphone tbh :)10:22
ggabrieli used to watch anime in the nokia 5800, then bought a projector for home and delayed any watching experience to there10:22
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ggabrieloh, gaming i guess10:22
mornfallggabriel: well, it is the piece that determines what stack you can run on it10:22
ggabrielyup10:22
ggabrieli guess i mean i don't care if it's old10:23
ggabrielbut if you play games, it could be a top criterion for a buy10:23
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mornfallnot really... unless you count master of magic ;-)10:23
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ggabrielthat's the dude running around and jumping, turning and all that, right?10:24
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ggabrielbut, yeah, whatever, games are cool, good 'nuff gpu required i guess10:25
Quu"games are cool" (c) ggabriel 201410:26
mornfallggabriel: nah, it's a 4X game from the 90s that I run in dosbox :) not on a phone, even10:26
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mornfallggabriel: http://www.ibiblio.org/GameBytes/issue21/greviews/momrev03.gif this10:26
igheaI think I'm of the minority, but I prefer battery life on my mobile devices10:26
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igheaover other things10:26
mornfallighea: battery life is only useful in full-day increments, and it's been a while since I saw a phone that you could reliably take out for 2 days of medium-heavy use10:27
ggabrielighea: no, i'm with you10:27
ggabrielmornfall: my n9 has been doing that quite well, the jolla matches it, i just use it more, especially as it's almost my main phone now and i play a lot with it10:28
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Quujolla can do easily 2 days withouth any heavy usage10:28
mornfallwell, firing up GPS for an hour or two is heavy, I guess :)10:29
ggabrielmornfall: well, that's the next test... when jolla opens up paid applications and i get meerun10:29
ggabrielaltho the n9 can last 2 days with ~4 hours of gps recording easily10:29
mornfallhmm, jogging with a brick the size of jolla sounds a bit unpleasant10:30
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ggabrieli'm sure i can just about hold it, bottle of water is more uncomfortable10:30
Kiranossweating aint an issue?10:30
ggabrielfwiw, i use it for running, cycling and skiing10:30
ggabrielwhy would it be?10:30
Kiranosholding it in the hand, atleast when I go out for a run, holding something it becomes pretty wet.. :)10:31
ggabrieloh, i guess not my case, but fair point10:31
ggabrieltoh for running with a good grip :)10:31
Kiranosyea a jolla would probably fit better on the arm than n90010:32
Kiranosjust a toh with wristband sticking out :)10:33
ggabrieli'd want that other half to embrace the phone a bit better than the standard clip system10:33
ggabrielas you'd be attacing the least important part of the phone to your arm :)10:34
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chem|stggabriel: "embrace better"? I doubt that a toh becomes loose at its clips in such a case... a PC toh will break at its weak spot or the point of force without loosing the actual phone11:01
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ggabrielchem|st: i wouldn't want to test that statement with my phone + running vibrations11:01
chem|stggabriel: it wont come off at the clips11:03
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chem|stbtw can anyone tell how scratchresistant the glas really is? I still have the factory protector on it, which is a bit worn now - mostly by a metal pin at the pocket of my jeans11:05
ggabrielchem|st: so far, so good11:06
ggabrielbut haven't used it too much11:06
ggabrieladmitedly, it has its own pocket11:06
ggabrieland it shared a backpack pocket with another phone and a plastic case11:06
ggabriela couple of times11:06
ggabrieli didn't put the phone facing down the table (as in the video) just yet tho11:06
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Quuchem|st: nothing yet11:08
stephgchem|st, I have only one tiny scratch11:08
Quuhave nothing to protect it11:08
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Quualuminium frames are losing paint/coating tho11:08
ggabrieloh, the aluminium frames are a bit weird, yeah11:08
stephgafter,  what 4 1/2 months11:08
stephgalways always in my pocket11:09
stephgso pretty good11:09
Quuyeah, same11:09
stephgQuu, you're right about the alu11:09
Quuyea, the corners look bit silly now11:09
stephgwith the black TOH on the phone is actually a very very very deep purple ;)11:09
chem|stwhy the hell does it prioritize mdata over wifi?11:10
Quuhmmmmm, deep purplish TOH would be neat11:10
ggabrielchem|st: didn't happen to me... but i remmeber somebody mentioning that11:11
chem|stQuu: some dark green perleffect too^^11:11
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Quuthat too11:12
Quugief all the possible colours now11:12
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chem|stone out of two times it does not connect to the wifi network... (tried 10 times)11:14
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chem|stQuu: I'd like to have a toh-box https://together.jolla.com/question/16307/rainbow-toh-boxes-ltd-edition/11:15
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pp_re tcp kernel hacks: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iyengar-minion-concept/?include_text=111:18
stephgchem|st, ditto11:18
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stephgsilly joke with colleagues is that my TOH matches my tshirts11:19
stephgso I need more colours11:19
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chem|stnow android networking is gone again11:28
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chem|st"invalid allowed orientation"...11:30
chem|stah nice, the settings app had something to do with it...11:30
chem|stclosing settings, stopping alien, starting alien, starting settings activate wifi worked...11:31
chem|stupdated android apps do not show up in launcher anymore...11:34
stephgchem|st, yeah that's a thing11:35
Quurebooting phone helps11:35
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mornfallchem|st: I wouldn't trust the toh clips to hold the phone in place either11:37
mornfallchem|st: almost all the weight is in the other part, so the clips will sustain huge stresses11:37
mornfallbut unless you are a 100kg weightlifter, the phone's kinda big even for an armband :P11:38
chem|stmornfall: when you pull in the center of toh you tighten the clips in their position...11:39
mornfallchem|st: the problem is (again, unless you have huge arms) that you will be pulling at the edges11:39
mornfallthat, or the whole thing is gonna be flimsy11:39
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mornfallthere are very likely waistbands that are thin enough to be comfortable though... I guess?11:43
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chem|stmornfall: you only need a two-point connection to a toh to fixate, why would you pull the edges that way?11:44
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mornfallchem|st: because I think 2 points are too flimsy :-) if the phone bounces while running, that's like ultra-annoying11:46
mornfallyou really want 411:46
mornfall(you can only tighten the bands on your arm so much before it becomes a problem, so they won't hold as securely as you'd like for a 2-point connection... IMHO, anyway)11:46
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gabriel9|workdamn again reboot11:52
gabriel9|work:(11:53
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chem|stmornfall: so four... still, it should not be a problem11:53
chem|stgabriel9|work: hail!11:53
gabriel9|workcome on Jolla fix this bug11:56
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Venemo_jmy jolla never ever rebooted by itself12:00
EyeaJoll12:00
EyeaJoolla12:00
Eyea)01L@12:00
Quupls12:00
Temereally putting the value into the conversation there12:01
gabriel9|workstrange thing is that sometimes after resboot battery is lov12:01
TemeVenemo_j: mine has a few times, but so few that it always surprises me if it happens :P12:01
gabriel9|worklike 4%12:01
gabriel9|workbut it was half full12:01
gabriel9|workis it something about connectors on battery?12:02
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PnuuI'd guess more in the bookkeeping department12:02
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ggabrielmay be a battery problem... i remember some folks had theirs swapped12:03
Temeat some point there were suspicions about some devices having faulty hardware for that monitors the battery leveles, don't know if it's real or not12:03
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Venemo_jgabriel9|work: I suspect that it is a hw defect of some sort12:06
ggabrieli'd suggest try to keep the battery topped up and see if it ever reboots itself12:07
ggabrielto rule things out/in at least12:08
roborommmm worked out a hacky workaround for the "missing numbers in call-log' problem: https://together.jolla.com/question/1355/display-contact-number-in-call-history/#post-id-3743212:08
ggabrielideally you want jolla care, but i konw that you are a special circumstances case :)12:08
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Temeanything that starts with "Okay folks... this is a complete hack... " is worth trying out12:10
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roboro:D12:10
roboroits my way of saying:  I take no responsiblitiy12:10
ggabrielok, folks, this is a complete hack: if you make me a sandwich...12:10
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ggabrielroboro: i thought that nobody took any responsibility even for commercial software ;)12:11
roborolol12:11
roboroI love the fact that if you're feeling bold you mess with the UI a bit12:12
gabriel9|worki have phone for some time and it started to reboot 3 days ago12:13
gabriel9|work:/12:13
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roborodid you feel bold and mess with the UI a bit? :P12:13
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gabriel9|workdo not touch private parts of jolla :D12:14
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* roboro no longer feels he is going to be able to complain about his jolla behaving badly...12:14
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Temesoon your Jolla is being questioned "show us the row number where the bad man touched you"12:16
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robororofl12:16
Venemo_jhm12:16
Venemo_jggabriel: I don't think the reboots have anything to do with battery charge. I violently discharge my jolla every day and it has never rebooted12:17
bennypr0fanehi, dòes anyone else have several conatcts ringing with different ringtones from the one set in settings, for no reason? i  want the same ringtone for all contacts,  and i sure didn't set this situation up12:18
Venemo_jbennypr0fane: have you reported it on together?12:19
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bennypr0fanei couldn't even find a way to use contact-specific ringtones. is there one and i just haven't found it?12:19
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bennypr0fanevenemo_j no haven't checked if it's there12:20
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bennypr0fanei thought id ask here first in case its already a well-known issue12:21
bennypr0fanealso tjc is very clunky to browse on the Jolla :-(12:22
Venemo_jthere is a client app in the store12:23
bennypr0faneis there auto nick completion in Sf Irc app?12:23
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Venemo_jbennypr0fane: yes  I use it right now12:23
bennypr0fanevenemo_j imo that app is pretty pointless atm, it has no advantage over the browser12:24
bennypr0fanevenemo_j how does it work nick auto completion?12:24
Venemo_jok12:25
Venemo_jenter a 'v' and press the arrow button left to the textbox12:26
Venemo_jthen you will get Venemo_j12:26
Venemo_jfor example12:26
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bennypr0faneVenemo_j: ah that's awesome, didn't sew that button12:28
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gabriel9|workanyone tried to stream mp3 with Audio?12:30
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EyeaWhat is a good jolla droid app store12:38
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Eyeai have yandex,aptoid and amazon12:39
Eyeaany others12:39
Eyeaor even the google play12:39
Eyeafoss - F-Droid is good12:40
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fk_lxfor me openess is open collaboration in the code open areas12:46
fk_lxsorry wrong window12:47
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ggabriel<rant>some people want so much android... Y U NO buy an android???</rant>12:49
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Stskeepsggabriel: because preciousssss12:50
ggabrielstinky little androidses12:52
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chem|stggabriel: speaking about it, how do I get the updated android apps being visible in launcher again...12:57
ggabrielchem|st: step 1: get a hammer12:57
ggabriel(but if you were serious, you're asking the wrong person ;-) )12:58
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minimecchem|st: 'killall lipstick' doesn't work unfortunately, so --> reboot is the only solution I found to get these missing icons back...13:00
ggabrielisn't lipstick a service that you can restart with systemd?13:00
ggabrielit has restarted a few times after the last update for me at least13:00
minimecggabriel: That is possible, as killing it will restart it again right away.13:01
ggabrielit should indeed13:01
ggabrielsafer to issue a restart tho13:02
minimecI agree..13:03
ggabrielactually, I think I tried when I broke my system but systemd wouldn't like it13:03
ggabrielthen again, it was quite broken ;-)13:03
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AcceEyea: 1 mobile13:05
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mornfallggabriel: because -ENONATIVEAPP? :)13:07
mornfallggabriel: also, even where a web app is available, the difference in bandwidth requirements is staggering (especially with how the sailfish browser "caches" things)13:09
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mornfallso yes, android *is* important, unless you have a few (tens? hundreds?) millions of $ stashed somewhere and you can pump it into native app development :-P13:10
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ggabrielmornfall: i guess my rant is towards folks wanting jolla to "officially" "support" "android stores"13:12
ggabrielso let's bring them on13:12
mornfallwell, android stores are officially supported (not play though)13:13
ggabrielamazon, f-droid, aptoid, gplay, m$ android and sears-droid while we're at it13:13
ggabrieljolla only supports yandex13:13
ggabrieland any extra effort should be spent in nice htings like lte and so on13:14
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mornfallggabriel: well, play would be a boon because so far I didn't find a single useful app anywhere else ;P13:14
mornfallggabriel: but I don't care about official if it can be made to work without huge effort13:15
ggabrielok, so then ok13:15
ggabrielyou are ok because you go ahead with it13:15
ggabrielfwiw, you couldn't have play without using every google service available13:15
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ggabrielat least jolla couldn't bundle it up13:16
mornfallggabriel: what could, in theory, fly is that someone uploads an app that downloads the requisite APKs from the interwebs and sets up play from that13:16
mornfallmakes you wonder if jolla could "come clean" if it was in harbour13:17
ggabrielinteresting legal question :)13:18
roboroyou mean like this: https://openrepos.net/content/schturman/google-play-installer-removed13:19
roborothat got removed becausxe of licensing terms13:20
mornfallroboro: you clearly can't bundle the APK with the app13:20
roboroyeah13:21
roboroeven if you didn't include the APK... not sure that you would still conform to licensing13:22
ggabrieltime to think outside the droid13:22
roboroindeed13:22
mornfallon the other hand, openrepos is just a tad bit paranoid...13:22
roboroless paranoid than harbour :)13:22
ggabrielbut was it openrepos or was it somebody asking them?13:22
mornfallthey could handle one DMCA takedown I'm sure13:22
mornfall„We do not want to loose openrepos as delivery channel...“ is what I meant.13:23
roboropersonally... the quicker I can get away from any android apps the better13:23
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roborocurrently the only one I am using actively is the yatse xbmc remote... and that is because it is a masterpiece of code13:23
mornfallroboro: the catch is that many of us won't ever be able to13:23
roboroeven if not fully functional in dalvik13:24
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mornfallroboro: I like how alien dalvik got shortened to dalvik, which is incidentally the name of the google VM ;-)13:24
roboro:)13:25
roborolazy13:25
roborois there a wiki for android apps that people think they can never live without?13:26
roboroit might be a good place for bored sailfish devs to visit :)13:26
mornfallanyway, banks, transport companies and probably a myriad of other "app vendors" are not going to release native apps, ever13:26
ggabrieli can never live without the x-ray app13:26
roborommm trye13:27
roborotrue even13:27
mornfallso you either cripple yourself or suck it up and use the android version13:27
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ggabrieli'd argue that i'd use airlines to save some paper13:27
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ggabrielwebsites are much better for transport in my experience13:27
ggabrielor the same13:27
ggabrielor a shell to a website, which is even funnier13:27
roboroand banking13:28
ggabrieli wouldn't do banking from my phone13:28
ggabrieli may do with the jolla if i manage to tunnel it through my home server13:28
mornfallnot around here... yes, you can use the webs, but you'll need to upgrade your data plan :-) and never go to places with bad coverage13:28
ggabrielmind you - nokia public transport rocks13:28
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ggabrielonly recently london's tfl got something out in the shape of a mobile web that is decent13:29
ggabrieland i say it rocks because it didn't matter how drunk one is, it still takes you home somehow ;-)13:29
ggabriels/one is/one could be/13:29
mornfalllooking at windowsphone.com reviews, it's about 2/513:31
roboroggabriel: /one could be/one should be/13:32
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mornfallPartial routing: Brno, Prague13:34
mornfallso much for HERE :)13:34
mornfallalso, it doesn't seem to do inter-city at all?13:34
mornfallggabriel: banking on your phone with an app has the advantage that it's trivial to block the phone without compromising your ebanking as a whole13:36
mornfall(the other upside, QR payments!)13:37
mornfallI'm not sure how humanity survived without that so long.13:37
ggabrielit's too unsecure for my liking13:37
ggabrielbut we had this discussion before13:38
ggabrielunsecure? insecure13:38
mornfallwell, yes, it's insecure... :-) but security is goddamn expensive13:38
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mornfall(in the case of my bank account, insecurity might be actually cheaper :D)13:39
ggabrielit depends if you're a saver or not i think13:39
mornfall(even if things do go wrong)13:39
mornfallonly if you keep your savings in a liquid account13:39
ggabrielsometimes thta's the only way13:40
mornfallaccounts with online order access are for liquidity not for storing money13:40
mornfalleasy enough (at least here) to get a locked down account with better interest for "cash" savings13:41
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ggabrieli guess that changs per country13:43
mornfallyou can still get at the money within 24 or so hour delay, and only transfer it to your "normal" account, so that should cover most of your bases...13:43
ggabrieli may log in my bank account twice a month tops13:43
ggabrielthen i use cards13:43
ggabrielor cash, nice untraceable cash13:43
mornfallmeh cash13:43
mornfallI have one 10€ banknote :-)13:43
mornfallhad for about a month13:43
mornfallcash is so 15th century13:44
ggabrieldepends on the country13:44
mornfall:-) I guess13:44
mornfalllots of people still use cash here13:44
ggabrielbut i'd rather cash 10x over an android application that accesses my money13:44
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mornfallmostly older people I suspect13:44
roborowe like to look at our queen as often as possible13:44
mornfallroboro: make her into a wallpaper on your phone! :-)13:45
* roboro agrees with ggabriel13:45
mornfallmoney is overrated13:45
ggabrielok, that's common ground then ;-)13:45
roboroeverything should be free... as in beer13:45
ggabrielwait, beer is free?!13:45
roboroheh13:45
mornfallroboro: where do you get this beer that things should be free as?13:45
roborodamn good question... perhaps that was phrased wrong :D13:47
mornfalland I clearly failed to buy beer13:47
mornfallsomehow bought bread instead :(13:48
roboroyou see... if we replaced money with beer... you would get paid in beer... so if you wanted to buy a beer you would pay for it with beer... which would make beer essentially free13:49
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* roboro realizes there are many holes in that logic13:49
ggabrielas many as bubbles in beer13:49
roborodo not trust code written by me13:49
mornfallI won't... what did you write?13:49
mornfall:P13:49
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mornfallI still have a bottle of red.13:49
roboro:D13:49
ggabrielmornfall: an android application13:50
mornfallggabriel: all of them I suppose13:50
roboroheh13:50
mornfallI could get wicked drunk instead of working.13:50
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roboroI get wicked drunk while working13:51
roborohence the logic holes13:51
Temei code java as a day job so being intoxicated while working is sort of given13:51
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* roboro sympathizes... anyone who codes in java needs to be intoxicated13:52
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ggabrielwhat if you have to code in php then? :)13:53
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roboroyou can *code* in php? :P13:53
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ggabrielassume yes13:53
* roboro prescribes heroin13:53
roboroit numbs the pain13:54
Temephp coders are not allowed offices above the ground floor because of the inherent suicide risk13:54
roboroactually... last time I looked at php it looked pretty reasonable as a language13:54
Teme..13:54
roboromind you... I had been drinking13:55
Acceoh the excuses!13:55
mornfallroboro: and coding Java13:55
mornfallor was that Teme ? :-) I need that wine.13:55
roborolol13:55
mornfallor coffee13:56
Temebut of course i meant i am intoxicated by the pure awesomeness of java while working on it;)13:56
mornfalland with how prudent I am, it'll probably be coffee13:56
Acceanyways, real programmers are language independent ;)13:56
ggabrielroboro: well... define "as a language"13:56
mornfallAcce: I tried that once. Twice actually.13:56
ggabrielmagic methods/variables depending on what zend version you use13:56
ggabrielsounds really catastrophic to me13:56
roboro:D13:56
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Accemornfall: it's the third time that tells the truth!13:57
mornfallAcce: Once in PHP and other time in Java.13:57
ggabrieladmittedly, java works quite well considering the amount of frameworks one has to deal with13:57
Temehttp://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/13:57
mornfallAcce: oh, and Python too13:57
Temethat pretty much sums up what's wrong with php13:57
mornfallAcce: (python not very seriously though)13:57
ggabrieltry magento, and you'll feel like programming java, but in php13:57
ggabrielpython is cool13:57
ggabrielshame re memory mgmt and concurrency13:57
Temejava is actually not that bad if you can dodge the enterprisey pitfalls13:57
mornfallTeme: I'm a one-man C++ shop. :D I can't like Java on principle.13:58
Temelike adopting any and all frameworks / patterns that come and go13:58
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AcceI had to learn java the other month for some webstuff, not bad, but quite a dependency hell13:58
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TemeAcce: yeah the dependencies and build are usually more work on a project than the actual business rules :D13:59
mornfallTeme: quite incomplete, but not entirely un-representative, https://www.ohloh.net/accounts/mornfall (scroll down to the language thingy)14:00
Acceyeah.. no idea if some IDE's handle it well, I tried maven and gradle14:00
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Tememaven does a decent job14:00
mornfall(java is not included because the project tanked, luckily enough)14:01
Teme:D14:01
mornfallmost of perl isn't either... perl is nice ;P14:02
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Acceso, do you guys do mcu's?14:09
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SpeedEvilAcce: some of us14:11
SpeedEvilAcce: also ##electronics14:11
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chem|stminimec: yeah me too14:14
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pawkyduh?... where did my google play store go?15:26
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pawkyThe icon has vanished from this earth....15:27
pawkyany tip how to get it back?15:27
Raimexperienced this before, some Android app icons were missing. they came back after a reboot.15:27
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pawkyjust did a reboot... lets see..15:30
osatonthat happens when android app updates. reboot helps15:30
pawkyah.. there it is :-)15:31
pawkythank you15:31
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pahartikosaton: Is killing "lipstick" (supposedly so that it restarts) not enough?15:37
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* pahartik did not like results of "killall -HUP lipstick", as all GUI applications fell down with it15:46
ggabrielwell, yeah15:46
ggabrielever tried to kill X? :)15:47
pahartikggabriel: So "lipstick" is display server...?15:48
ggabrieli guess you could call it that15:48
ggabriellooks after all the display part fwiw15:48
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pahartikggabriel: At least it was quick to restart and processes under "screen" were not affected15:50
ggabrielvery quick, yeah15:52
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pawkycan android apps use NFC now?15:56
pahartikggabriel: Would be better to restart launcher GUI, if I knew which process it is15:56
ggabrielpahartik: my knowledge doesn't go that far15:57
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KabouikHey there. Does anyone know if I can invite somebody *temporarily* to a Bitbucket project? I'm limited to 5 people, which is OK for me because the projects are not long term. But can I revoke access when done, and will I recover the "free" user?16:31
KabouikWorkaround would be to create 5 Bitbucket accounts and distribute them to people when needed, then change credentials, but not as practical16:31
Kabouikas simple*16:31
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KabouikFrom the documentation, I can revoke access, but nothing says whether I recover the "free user" or not16:34
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KabouikOh, just noticed there is a #bitbucket, sorry for bothering here!16:36
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Redge73#leave17:30
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Redge73exit17:31
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Quuhue17:34
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Venemoveskuh: ping20:12
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cvptbr: ?21:29
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kimmoliKabouik or maybe this better channel22:09
kimmolijust open terminal and systemctl stop tohkbd.service22:11
KabouikI temporarily uninstalled the app22:12
KabouikLet's reinstall it and disable the service right after22:12
KabouikI only tried disabling THEN restarting it, but the problem persisted, hence the uninstall22:12
kimmolidisable tohkbd before installing toholed22:13
kimmolistop/disable22:13
KabouikBy the way, funny thing, the OLED display is on since 1:34 AM of the lasttime I posted in the thread. But frozen at this time and battery level. :)22:13
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kimmoliyep , it might get "stuck" in some rare cases..., specially when both daemons running.22:15
kimmoliother cases should be already fixed (lilke too log sms)22:15
KabouikShouldI've reinstalled with tohkbd off22:15
Kabouik-Should22:16
kimmoliyep22:16
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KabouikI'm not in any team on Bitbucket, could you invite me to the project so that I can get the update, if any?22:17
kimmolii will soon, no new updates yet.22:17
KabouikAl right22:18
kimmolii will email new version releasenotes anyways22:18
KabouikGreat22:18
KabouikWell Kimmoli, I must have to say you seem to have solved at least big part of the issue22:18
KabouikThe proximity sensor now works22:18
KabouikWill wait to see if there are any reboots22:18
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kimmolisay ps -A | grep toh22:19
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Kabouik$  ps -A | grep toh22:19
Kabouik   95 ?        00:00:00 irq/331-toh-eve22:19
Kabouik  788 ?        00:00:00 tohd22:19
Kabouik 6188 ?        00:00:00 toholed22:19
kimmolilooks ok22:19
KabouikLet's try Communi highlights22:20
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kimmoliKabouik huhuu22:20
kimmolidid you update today to 0.322:20
KabouikNo I didn't update anything22:20
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KabouikSeems I should check my emails22:20
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kimmolimean communi.irc22:21
KabouikAh no, I've quite a few updates waiting22:21
kimmoliit got 0.3 today, and it contains "toholed support"22:21
KabouikAwesome22:21
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kimmolibut hope it works now. i go to make some zZZzz now. plingpong me if any more issues, ok?22:22
KabouikCan't wait for a folder support on the launcher screens, this billion of icons is really killing the Sailfish experience for me, I'm at a point where I don't even try to find the apps I would use if they were sorted correctly22:22
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KabouikI will kimmoli, but this is gonna be a crazy month so most likely during week-ends or nights on TMO :P22:23
kimmoliwhat about good old windows, you have unused icons on your desktop -notification time to time?22:23
KabouikNo not so much, but just because I mostly put files on the Desktop, not shortcuts22:24
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KabouikTest Kabouiolla22:25
KabouikAwesome.22:25
kimmoliprm Kabouiolla22:27
KabouikGood night Kimmo, thanks for the rapid solution22:27
kimmoliGN22:27
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