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pdanek | Do you agree that Qt develops significantly faster than GTK+? Especially for mobility. | 00:45 |
---|---|---|
pdanek | DO you think KDE will benefit from that in long term? And potentially outperform Gnome? | 00:45 |
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pdanek | With outperform I meant get more popular than Gnome. :) | 00:53 |
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coderus | added automatically whatsapp token renew on server. now i can die and mitakuuluu continue to work while openrepos server is running :) | 06:47 |
Morpog_PC___ | wooohoo! (or not) :D | 06:47 |
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coderus | :D | 07:07 |
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AL13N | my 3y old brought a book from library called "moemin"... | 10:17 |
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AL13N | how does one pronounce this? i had this feeling it was finnish or something | 10:18 |
friese | those white hippo-like things? in german it's something like "muumin" - i guess thats kinda near the finish pronounciation, but idk | 10:19 |
Shinryuu | it's called "muumit" here | 10:21 |
friese | ah okay :) | 10:22 |
friese | but yeah, it's finno-swedish i guess | 10:22 |
AL13N | still, i have no idea how to pronounce this, and though it seems the kid is called moem and the parents moem-daddy and moem-mommy | 10:23 |
* AL13N doesn't know | 10:23 | |
Yaniel | sounds about right | 10:24 |
friese | uhm in german it's moominpapa & moominmama, papa => father and mama => mother, maybe it's just translated in english? | 10:24 |
friese | anyways, loved these books as a child :) | 10:25 |
Shinryuu | and here they are 'muumipappa, muumimamma' | 10:25 |
Shinryuu | pappa is more like grandfather and mamma is like mother in some slang way | 10:25 |
Shinryuu | isä and äiti are the most used ones | 10:26 |
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raa700 | well, Tove Jansson is Finnish-Swedish and in swedish pappa means father | 10:39 |
Zotan | AL13N: the Moomin books aren't just for kids, you might enjoy them yourself if you haven't already read them. | 10:43 |
kimmoli | muumilaaksoon.... | 10:45 |
raa700 | the original black and white books aren't for kids at all, moomins are bunch of boozers | 10:45 |
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raa700 | *comicbooks | 10:45 |
Shinryuu | yeah | 10:46 |
Shinryuu | I'm working on something random again, http://a.pomf.se/dyacsz.jpg -- not Jolla stuff | 10:46 |
friese | looks interesting though, diy trackball? | 10:47 |
Shinryuu | that trackball is 'CST L-Trac' with jack ports | 10:48 |
Shinryuu | so you can add extra keys | 10:48 |
friese | also: hhkb, awesome :) always wanted one - just for the clean key caps ;) | 10:48 |
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Shinryuu | haha | 10:48 |
friese | but then again, i think i have a spare set of key caps for my model m here somewhere, maybe i'll mod them a bit ;) | 10:49 |
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Shinryuu | I need to get a bolt modded IBM M SSK somewhere.. they're rare and expensive | 10:50 |
friese | humm yeah, they're quite nice :) | 10:50 |
friese | though currently im using an model f, just love that keyboard layout - well except maybe the missing cursor keys :) | 10:51 |
Andy80 | hi guys :) | 10:52 |
friese | hi Andy80 | 10:52 |
Andy80 | any plans/development for a native Telegram client? | 10:52 |
friese | uhm, not that i know off... | 10:52 |
Andy80 | the Android version "works", but often notifications are missed if client is closed | 10:52 |
Andy80 | there is a Qt lib in development, from Canonical peopl https://launchpad.net/libqtelegram | 10:54 |
Andy80 | we could use that one :) | 10:54 |
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Andy80 | tanty, yo! :) | 10:59 |
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pdanek1 | Why do you think Unity is so popular? Is it because it's better, or because Ubuntu has switched to it? | 12:34 |
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* ggabriel about to ask what is unity :P | 12:36 | |
AL13N | i'm not sure if it is popular, but then probably the second option... | 12:38 |
AL13N | of course, ubuntu isn't that great, it's just popular cause it's over-hyped | 12:38 |
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Yaniel | and actually advertised | 12:39 |
pdanek1 | AL13N: I know Ubuntu was quite bad few years ago when I tried it, but have you tried some of the latest versions? I didn't and wondering if they improved a lot | 12:39 |
AL13N | at work, we had a bunch of issues in the past with servers, due to debian 4 not being out yet... we've had lots of packaging errors and since they don't generally upstream stuff, (though i hear they do now), i haven't tried recent stuff | 12:40 |
AL13N | i did see my boss install a ubuntu desktop once, but i'm biased since then... | 12:41 |
pdanek1 | Hehe. | 12:41 |
AL13N | also that ubuntu desktop, he couldn't find a terminal | 12:41 |
AL13N | so | 12:41 |
AL13N | that's not good for me | 12:41 |
pdanek1 | Unity share is probably over 40% | 12:41 |
AL13N | anyway, since i'm using Mageia (which is better and just as user-friendly), i see no need to switch | 12:41 |
pdanek1 | For sure more than Gnome and KDE together. | 12:42 |
AL13N | especially since i've started to contribute to Mageia | 12:42 |
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AL13N | pdanek1: in ubuntu world, maybe | 12:42 |
AL13N | but isn't unity gnome anyway? | 12:42 |
* AL13N doesn't know | 12:42 | |
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* AL13N used primarily KDE and unless there's a reason to switch, i don't switch | 12:43 | |
* AL13N looks down on ubuntu since they are still basing on another distro, instead of just clean forking it | 12:44 | |
pdanek1 | AL13N: Gnome? No. | 12:44 |
AL13N | :-) | 12:44 |
* AL13N kind of likes QML nowadays | 12:44 | |
pdanek1 | Unity is fairly new as I knew and its market share is so big now, because of Ubuntu. | 12:44 |
pdanek1 | So I'm wondering, did it become popular because it's so damn good, or just because Ubuntu has decided to switch to it. :D | 12:45 |
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AL13N | i don't care about market shares... IE prolly has more market share... it doesn't mean i need to use it | 12:45 |
pdanek1 | If so, are we doomed to fall into everything that big companies decide us to use? | 12:45 |
AL13N | pdanek1: i'm still thinking 2nd | 12:45 |
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AL13N | pdanek1: not really big companies, but the ones who actively advertise | 12:45 |
ggabriel | wikipedia says that unity runs on gnome... | 12:45 |
AL13N | the big "populous" is doomed, because even though a single human can be smart, "the people" are inherently stupid | 12:46 |
pdanek1 | Oh really. | 12:46 |
AL13N | but not only doomed in DE | 12:46 |
AL13N | doomed in everything | 12:46 |
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AL13N | social structure, politics, economy, env, DE, etc... | 12:46 |
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pdanek1 | AL13N: Do you have the new Plasma 5? (KDE) Is it amazingly terrific? :D | 12:47 |
pdanek1 | Since Gnome 3 has disappointed me and I also don't believe that GTK+ is the future. | 12:47 |
* AL13N thinks that people would be more critical and active and generally better humans, if they had to fight to survive | 12:48 | |
AL13N | well, i kinda like the KF system | 12:48 |
pdanek1 | What is KF? | 12:48 |
AL13N | KDE generally split the KDE into KF and plasma | 12:48 |
AL13N | KDE-Framework | 12:48 |
AL13N | which means the KF5 is a few start executables and modules | 12:48 |
AL13N | and plasma is themes and UI and stuff (+ apps) | 12:49 |
AL13N | this also means one can have completely QML widgets or stuff | 12:49 |
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AL13N | much like sailfishOS actually | 12:49 |
pdanek1 | ggabriel: I checked and seems it was on Gnome few years ago, but not anymore. | 12:49 |
ggabriel | pdanek1: fair enough | 12:49 |
AL13N | i've tested it on coming Mageia5 and even though KF5/plasma isn't ready | 12:50 |
AL13N | it's gonna be using a lot less resources | 12:50 |
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AL13N | and they allow for another UI to use KF5 | 12:50 |
AL13N | not just plasma5 | 12:50 |
pdanek1 | Unity is actually in QML too. | 12:50 |
AL13N | oh gods | 12:51 |
pdanek1 | Even LXDE is moving to Qt, they merged efforts with RazotQt and created LXQt. | 12:51 |
AL13N | think about it, unity on KF5... | 12:51 |
* AL13N sighs | 12:51 | |
AL13N | i've tried LXQT too | 12:51 |
pdanek1 | Opinions vs KDE? | 12:51 |
AL13N | that looks good-ish from a minimalistic pov | 12:51 |
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AL13N | i like good integration, so i'm sticking with KDE | 12:52 |
pdanek1 | Because the lightweight nature of DE is not relevant anymore with our HW accelerations etc. | 12:52 |
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AL13N | for now, i'm sticking to KDE4 | 12:52 |
AL13N | i'll probably be trying plasma5 for my media box though | 12:53 |
pdanek1 | AL13N: Why Mageia and not OpenSUSE? | 12:53 |
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AL13N | cause i started Mandrake a bunch of years ago, and was thinking of giving back still in Mandriva... so when the fork happend, i moved over with all the others | 13:03 |
AL13N | cause Mandriva is like almost dead | 13:03 |
AL13N | and i used that cause, stuff worked, and i didn't lose time on getting it set up as i liked | 13:03 |
AL13N | futhermore Mageia is completely community, no company | 13:03 |
AL13N | which is a plus | 13:03 |
AL13N | and OpenSuse, i've had too much shit with yast in the past | 13:04 |
AL13N | also at work, i've had to fix a suse machine and it sucked | 13:04 |
pdanek1 | hehe | 13:04 |
pdanek1 | but you don't have to use yast, do you? | 13:04 |
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AL13N | so, i kinda started contributing to Mageia ever since it's birth | 13:05 |
pdanek1 | I find OpenSUSE better than RHEL and Fedora. | 13:05 |
pdanek1 | I see. | 13:05 |
AL13N | pdanek1: not sure if it's yast itself, or the hardware management stuff | 13:05 |
AL13N | pdanek1: don't get me wrong, i kinda find that too | 13:05 |
pdanek1 | So if you are not developer and you're just Linux desktop user. | 13:05 |
AL13N | but it's just fedora is immensely unstable | 13:05 |
pdanek1 | And you want something with KDE | 13:05 |
AL13N | not necessarily | 13:06 |
pdanek1 | Would you choose OpenSUSE or Mageia? | 13:06 |
AL13N | but Mageia has ALL DE's i think | 13:06 |
AL13N | and i'm a SA at work | 13:06 |
AL13N | so i'm using debian and RHEL servers | 13:06 |
AL13N | and at home, i'm a really a developer, and getting more into QML | 13:06 |
AL13N | and i'm in packaging team for Mageia | 13:06 |
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pdanek1 | Me mostly RHEL servers and SLES... but mainly IBM AIX. | 13:06 |
AL13N | so, of course, i'll pick Mageia over OpenSuse | 13:07 |
AL13N | opensuse is good-ish in getting stuff that works OoTB | 13:07 |
pdanek1 | I thought Mageia is the same. | 13:07 |
AL13N | but it's still not better than Mageia, cause with opensuse you can have these conflicts of 2 packages that work independently well | 13:07 |
pdanek1 | Providing out of the box experience like Ubuntu does. | 13:07 |
AL13N | yes | 13:08 |
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AL13N | if i was thinking OOTB for desktop functionality, i'd go: Mageia > Opensuse > Fedora > Ubuntu | 13:09 |
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AL13N | imho | 13:09 |
pdanek1 | So Ubuntu not out of the box at all? :D | 13:09 |
pdanek1 | I thought it's supposed to be exactly that. | 13:10 |
AL13N | yes, but it's not really QAing stuff well | 13:10 |
AL13N | imho | 13:10 |
AL13N | or at least in the past | 13:10 |
AL13N | one more thing that i like in Mageia, is that you don't need all these extra repositories | 13:10 |
pdanek1 | Like testing etc.? | 13:11 |
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pdanek1 | Or you mean community repos like in Arch Linux? | 13:11 |
pdanek1 | Or like EPEL. | 13:12 |
AL13N | yes, like epel and community repos | 13:13 |
AL13N | in Mageia it's like this: we ARE a community | 13:13 |
AL13N | so, why should we have seperate community repos??? | 13:14 |
AL13N | it makes no sense | 13:14 |
AL13N | i mean, if it's legal to distribute without restrictions, it's pretty much a go to package something | 13:14 |
pdanek1 | What about external support? Those big names like Valve's Steam and so on. Do they package for Mageia already? Because it's quite new (since Mandriva died). | 13:14 |
AL13N | Mageia has steam | 13:14 |
AL13N | it works OOTB | 13:14 |
AL13N | my collegue at work, started to use Mageia, because Steam worked OOTB and ubuntu got issues | 13:15 |
pdanek1 | Because I have slept last few years and just used my business RHEL desktop. | 13:15 |
pdanek1 | And it seems Mageia is doing well. :) | 13:15 |
AL13N | RHEL as desktop... eek | 13:15 |
pdanek1 | I should try out. | 13:15 |
pdanek1 | Company rules. | 13:15 |
AL13N | if you don't have EPEL... you're really crippled | 13:15 |
AL13N | right | 13:15 |
pdanek1 | We have EPEL. | 13:16 |
Kiranos | How easy is nvidia drivers propitiary to install and setup for multiple screens? Ubuntu is very good at handling these drivers | 13:16 |
AL13N | i work at a linux firm and we have standardisation for servers | 13:16 |
AL13N | but our desktops are our choice | 13:16 |
AL13N | we have one that distro-hops | 13:16 |
AL13N | i think he's at arch now, or got back to opensuse | 13:16 |
AL13N | we had a gentoo one before | 13:16 |
AL13N | Kiranos: for mageia it's a question at install time... proprietary or open source? | 13:17 |
AL13N | that's about it | 13:17 |
pdanek1 | Good stuff. | 13:17 |
Kiranos | Cool nice might try it out using kubuntu now | 13:18 |
pdanek1 | Btw, are you French? | 13:18 |
AL13N | also, no default DE | 13:18 |
AL13N | nope | 13:18 |
AL13N | you get a choice during install time | 13:18 |
AL13N | (or you have seperate gnome and KDE iso's) | 13:18 |
AL13N | but i think we might have (almost) all DE's? | 13:18 |
* AL13N is unsure | 13:19 | |
AL13N | XFCE, LXDE, enlightment, KDE. gnome, cinnamon, mate, etc... | 13:19 |
pdanek1 | I have tried Arch, Gentoo, Ubuntu/Xubuntu/Kubuntu (who the hell thought of changing the names... argh), Debian, Fedora, RHEL, Mint | 13:20 |
pdanek1 | In the past it seemed OK to play with distro, but now I want desktop that works and only gives me the choice to play with it, doesn't enforce. | 13:20 |
pdanek1 | Fedora is too unstable as you said, Ubuntu I never really liked, Debian more for servers... also I prefer RPM kind of. | 13:21 |
pdanek1 | Mint... meh | 13:21 |
pdanek1 | So my next stop is either OpenSUSE or Mageia, yesterday I was almost sure OpenSUSE it will be, since I didn't really know anything about Mageia. | 13:21 |
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AL13N | i guess i can talk bullshit forever, you'll just have to try it | 13:22 |
AL13N | or both | 13:22 |
pdanek1 | yes | 13:22 |
pdanek1 | Most importantly I'm soo excited to get rid of the RHEL desktop finally. :D | 13:22 |
AL13N | at home, i have mageia on my desktop, laptop, my firewall, my media box | 13:22 |
pdanek1 | Firewall? Why? | 13:22 |
AL13N | pdanek1: before you get systemd issyues :-) | 13:22 |
AL13N | pdanek1: why not? | 13:23 |
pdanek1 | I don't know why not. | 13:23 |
AL13N | pdanek1: firewall, but also has pxe installers and stuff | 13:23 |
AL13N | i've been helping out at getting minimal installs really minimal | 13:23 |
pdanek1 | We should make a poll for Sailfish users, which desktop OS do they use. | 13:23 |
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AL13N | meh | 13:24 |
pdanek1 | Btw, Mageia seems to do well on distrowatch.. | 13:25 |
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AL13N | well, not like distrowatch actually has good statistics | 13:25 |
AL13N | or i mean, it's good, but not really accurate for market share | 13:26 |
pdanek1 | How do they measure it? | 13:26 |
AL13N | i have no idea | 13:26 |
AL13N | but they have a FAQ about it | 13:26 |
AL13N | i think | 13:26 |
AL13N | i read something like that before | 13:26 |
AL13N | lately, i've been listening to RPG actual play podcasts | 13:27 |
AL13N | it's like listing to people building a story together, with all the funny banter... | 13:28 |
pdanek1 | thx for tip! | 13:29 |
AL13N | and it's not like it's predictable | 13:29 |
AL13N | cause if they roll bad, the story goes to another direction | 13:29 |
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Yaniel | AL13N: where'd you find those? | 13:30 |
AL13N | well, like 5y ago, i liked Apocalypse Engine, but that site seems down now | 13:31 |
AL13N | though that was the best one | 13:31 |
AL13N | right now, i'm using gamerstable and the walking eye | 13:31 |
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AL13N | http://gamerstable.com/openly-gamer-theatre-2/ | 13:31 |
pdanek1 | another soul here! Yaniel: short Q, what OS or distro do you use? | 13:31 |
AL13N | http://www.thewalkingeye.com/ | 13:31 |
Yaniel | in current order of activity: OSX 10.9, Arch Linux, Win7 | 13:32 |
AL13N | Apocalypse world Actual play was nice | 13:32 |
AL13N | in the walking eye, there's this girl Jen | 13:32 |
AL13N | and she's like my inspiration | 13:33 |
AL13N | for all the torture | 13:33 |
pdanek1 | Yaniel: What DE on Arch? | 13:33 |
AL13N | i have immense respect for her | 13:33 |
Yaniel | no DE, just awesome | 13:33 |
AL13N | oh | 13:33 |
AL13N | i've used awesome before | 13:33 |
AL13N | on a media box with 2 screens | 13:33 |
Yaniel | I try out enlightenment occasionally | 13:33 |
AL13N | so there could be 2 browsers open, because it was connected to 2 TVs | 13:33 |
AL13N | Yaniel: http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?cat=490 <-- this | 13:34 |
Yaniel | nice | 13:34 |
AL13N | seriously, they had to Veil a scene, because she was making some people uncomfortable with all the torture | 13:36 |
AL13N | it was awesome | 13:37 |
AL13N | i started to skip the first episode though, because of the character building | 13:37 |
Yaniel | gtg | 13:38 |
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krnlyng | hi, where are contacts located? i copied .local and .vault back to /home/nemo after a factory reset but my contacts are missing :( | 14:00 |
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raa700 | ~/.vault/People/data/all.vcf | 14:19 |
raa700 | should be | 14:19 |
raa700 | if you've made backup of them | 14:19 |
krnlyng | raa700: and if i didn't? i made a backup of the entire home partition | 14:20 |
raa700 | dunno then | 14:22 |
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pdanek1 | Wasn't MeeGo supposed to use Zypper originally? | 15:07 |
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pdanek1 | Back then when Nokia and Intel joined the efforts and IRC wars started to choose package format? | 15:08 |
Dotti | meego used zypper | 15:11 |
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pdanek1 | Why Sailfish doesn't use Zypper? | 15:11 |
pdanek1 | Any particular reason? | 15:11 |
w00t | it more or less does (via libzypp) | 15:13 |
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louisdk | w00t, but "zypper" isn't installed by default. You're recommended to use pkcon. | 15:40 |
w00t | louisdk: zypper is a frontend for libzypp. the pkcon backend we use uses libzypp. | 15:40 |
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pdanek | Another offtopic question today! | 16:32 |
pdanek | SLES or RHEL? Which one would you choose and why? | 16:32 |
M4rtinK | RHEL | 16:34 |
M4rtinK | because I like it :) | 16:34 |
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pdanek | :) | 16:42 |
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pdanek | AL13N: You should give OpenSUSE another chance ;) new released in 1 month | 16:58 |
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Nicd- | pdanek: arch linux master race | 17:06 |
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giucam | +1 for arch :) | 17:16 |
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Gordon` | I | 17:35 |
Gordon` | Hi* | 17:35 |
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Gordon` | I have a quite serious problem with my Jolla: the internal storage seems unable to write any data anymore… | 17:36 |
TemeV | hey, talk about linux distros. I was just wondering which one I should install on my desktop | 17:36 |
Gordon` | this is what “df” says that about the /home mountpoint: | 17:37 |
Gordon` | /dev/mmcblk0p28 14415852 14096020 3780 100% /home | 17:37 |
TemeV | I currently have arch, but I'm gettin tired of setting up evertyhing manually | 17:37 |
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Gordon` | but a “du -s /home” says “3454732 /home” | 17:37 |
louisdk | Have anyone ever successfully put a screen protector on a smartphones and gotten rid of all the air bobbles. It's pretty hard. Saw someone CNET used tape to lift the protector and another piece of tape to remove the dust. | 17:37 |
Nicd- | Gordon`: how did you fill it? :o | 17:38 |
Gordon` | and Nicd- it isn’t filled… the du command says that about 3GB of data is stored on /home, and this looks like the amount of data I stored on /home | 17:38 |
Gordon` | a “df -i /home” says that: | 17:39 |
Gordon` | /dev/mmcblk0p28 0 0 0 - /home | 17:39 |
Gordon` | I believe this is a problem: my partition cannot have 0 inodes | 17:39 |
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Nicd- | sounds really strange | 17:40 |
Nicd- | what does 'btrfs fi show' say? | 17:40 |
Gordon` | → http://files.gordon.re/jolla-inode-error | 17:41 |
Gordon` | /dev/mmcblk1 is my micro-SD card | 17:41 |
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Nicd- | seems your btrfs is full | 17:43 |
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Gordon` | how can I see or free that amount of data? | 17:44 |
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Nicd- | Gordon`: see https://together.jolla.com/question/30822/root-and-home-disks-full-and-causing-various-problems/ | 17:45 |
Nicd- | but do backup everything before you do anything | 17:45 |
Gordon` | thanks | 17:45 |
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r0kk3rz_ | seems ive fixed the reboots without any chemicals. | 18:04 |
r0kk3rz_ | just gently grind the battery against the terminals a couple of times | 18:04 |
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pdanek1 | Hmm | 21:06 |
pdanek1 | Seems that Sailfish is closest to OpenSUSE. | 21:07 |
pdanek1 | It's not based on any distro, but similar to OpenSUSE. | 21:07 |
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fennekki | isn't it based on Mer | 21:07 |
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fennekki | Nemo/Mer | 21:07 |
pdanek1 | Of course. | 21:07 |
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fennekki | that is a distribution | 21:07 |
fennekki | not a desktop one, though | 21:07 |
aard_ | pdanek: well, we're using rpm and zypper. that's about it | 21:08 |
aard_ | even package selection on top of zypper is done in a different way | 21:08 |
pdanek | So if you have to choose the closests desktop distro. | 21:08 |
pdanek | What would it be? | 21:09 |
fennekki | pdanek: that's kind of a pointless thing to consider. What is the parent distro of Debian? | 21:09 |
M4rtinK | well, I think it is at least in part influenced by OpenSUSE also using OBS | 21:09 |
aard_ | not really possible. some packaging is oriented on fedora, some on opensuse, some completely or own | 21:09 |
M4rtinK | so it is easy to pull packages directly from OpenSUSE OBS to the Mer OBS instance | 21:10 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: we are way ahead of opensuse in the way we're using obs | 21:10 |
M4rtinK | aard_: well, but they have newer OBS :) | 21:10 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: well, we've had experience building arm on obs years before they thought about starting an opensuse arm distribution. and they were not interested in our knowhow | 21:11 |
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aard_ | also we have the whole boss bits + source services and webhooks | 21:11 |
M4rtinK | interesting :) | 21:11 |
aard_ | I'm using the opensuse obs for some desktop packaging for my computers, and I'm always getting very annoyed when I need to change my packages there | 21:11 |
aard_ | also version switching of opensuse by editing the version in _all_ repo files just feels so antiquated | 21:12 |
pdanek | Right. | 21:12 |
M4rtinK | BTW, something similar is also being assembled in Fedora, bit by bit (Koji build system enhancements, FEDMSG message bus, COPR personal repos, review server, Taskotron test automation, ...) | 21:13 |
M4rtinK | oh, and we have badges! :D | 21:13 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: well, the nice part about how we're doing things here is that you can use the review functionality of your favourite git hoster | 21:13 |
M4rtinK | https://badges.fedoraproject.org/user/m4rtink | 21:13 |
aard_ | the branching/merging and review functions in obs are shit, git is doing a way better job at that | 21:14 |
pdanek | I haven't used OpenSUSE yet (only SLES), but I have used Fedora and I know a lot of people from Fedora community. | 21:14 |
pdanek | Do you think OpenSUSE community is better? | 21:14 |
pdanek | Fedora guys seemed to be too pro-Red Hat sometimes | 21:14 |
M4rtinK | aard_: well, I consider that a separate thing to package review | 21:14 |
fennekki | How can fedora guys be "too pro- Red Hat" | 21:14 |
pdanek | :D | 21:15 |
pdanek | Don't know. | 21:15 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: it's not, as our packages live in git as well | 21:15 |
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M4rtinK | well, quite a lot of people in the community are working for Red Hat :) | 21:15 |
fennekki | aard_: not the binaries, I hope? | 21:15 |
fennekki | Git is rather terrible with blobs | 21:15 |
aard_ | pdanek: desktop distribution is just a tool for me, so I'm not really getting involved in any community activity. I'm just using the opensuse obs with some home projects to build my stuff wihch is not included in the distribution | 21:16 |
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M4rtinK | well, we also have them in Git: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Package_maintenance_guide?rd=Using_Fedora_GIT | 21:17 |
aard_ | fennekki: for projects where we are uptream, source + packaging lives there. for projects where we're not upstream, a reference to the upstream sources + packaging lives there. has the nice side effect of not having to manage rpm patches, you just carry them in the git tree, and can easily rebase on upstream updates. the whole thing then gets packaged by a source service and builds on obs | 21:17 |
pdanek | I guess desktop Linux lost the traction because it's hard to be competitive there. | 21:17 |
pdanek | Mobile market has far more potential. | 21:17 |
pdanek | Where do you see Sailfish in 5 years? | 21:18 |
pdanek | 5% market share? | 21:18 |
M4rtinK | each fedora package has a dist-git repo Fedora that holds a spec file, any patches and a reference to the source tarball, which is stored separately | 21:18 |
aard_ | pdanek: I showed you my desktop before. I basically care about something that boots up to a ui managing one browser window, one or two emacs frames, and a bunch of terminals | 21:18 |
M4rtinK | as already mentioned Git is not good with blobs :) | 21:18 |
pdanek | yea | 21:19 |
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fennekki | speaking of text editors, neovim seems interesting and might be worth changing to at some point | 21:20 |
M4rtinK | we have branches for different releases (f19, f20, f21, rawhide/master, epel, etc.) | 21:20 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: that's not the best way to do it | 21:20 |
M4rtinK | and there is the fedpkg tool that is just a thin wrapper above git | 21:20 |
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M4rtinK | and adds stuff like building/scratch building the given repo or submitting updates to community QA (Bodhi), etc. | 21:21 |
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M4rtinK | aard_: sure, there is definitely room for improvement :) | 21:21 |
M4rtinK | aard_: feedback welcome :) | 21:21 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: most of our packages now use git subtree, that allows you to keep packaging + upstream source (both if upstream is git or something else, git just is a bit more comfortable) in the same git repository | 21:22 |
M4rtinK | but it already works quite nicely from my experience | 21:22 |
aard_ | your patches are just in git as well, which means on update you just rebase inside git, with a lot less work than manual patching | 21:22 |
M4rtinK | well, the patches are also in dist-git, but you indeed need to supply a new tarball if you rebase | 21:23 |
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aard_ | actually 'patches' might be the wrong word here, basically you have one (or more) branches tracking upstream (git, tarballs, whatever), and additional branches adding your modifications + packaging | 21:24 |
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M4rtinK | I think that the tracking branch is similar to our "master" branch that builds packages directly to Rawhide without any QA checks :) | 21:27 |
M4rtinK | and then you usually have branches for some of the stable/development Fedora releases where you have the packaging (spec + patches) & reference to a tarball | 21:28 |
M4rtinK | so the biggest difference looks like that we have tarballs instead of subtrees :) | 21:29 |
aard_ | yes, and that part imo does not make really sense when you're hacking in git anyways | 21:30 |
M4rtinK | well, I'll have to ask the guys maintaining it the next time I meet them :) | 21:31 |
M4rtinK | but could be for historic reasons - before git it was based on CVS :) | 21:32 |
M4rtinK | so might be a bit more conservative | 21:32 |
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M4rtinK | or maybe some scaling considerations - tarballs might be easier to store/check space usage than randomly growing git trees | 21:33 |
M4rtinK | and last thing that comes to my mind is robustness and build reproductibility - build root + spec + patches + tarball = build | 21:34 |
aard_ | who needs to check space with current disk prices? :p | 21:34 |
M4rtinK | with git checkout it might be a bit more complicated | 21:34 |
aard_ | you can reproduce the build from git as well | 21:34 |
M4rtinK | well, yeah | 21:34 |
aard_ | for projects where we import the tarball we can actually get the same tarball out of git again, if we want | 21:35 |
M4rtinK | I guess it might be possible to hack support for this to the current system :) | 21:36 |
M4rtinK | you would just reference some git tag or has instead of a tarball | 21:36 |
M4rtinK | *hash | 21:36 |
aard_ | yes, both is supported in our case, though we only do automatic build trigger on tags | 21:36 |
M4rtinK | BTW, there is a funny thing | 21:37 |
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M4rtinK | AFAIK there are no automatic builds in the Fedora build system :) | 21:38 |
aard_ | well, a big part of our changes is our own code, so we want to have as little as possible work there. so you hack, get it merged, tag, and it builds | 21:38 |
aard_ | using the tag as new version number, so you don't even need to touch the spec file usually | 21:39 |
M4rtinK | that sure is handy :) | 21:39 |
M4rtinK | it could be that some packagers have it setup like this | 21:39 |
M4rtinK | but nothing widely used as far as I can tell | 21:39 |
M4rtinK | also no automatic rebuilds like OBS has | 21:40 |
aard_ | + you don't even need to maintain a changes file. if you have something like '[foo] this might be relevant for the release team to figure out what I did' in your commit message this'll end up in the package changelog | 21:41 |
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M4rtinK | we have something similar - you can add a bug number to the header (#123456) | 21:42 |
M4rtinK | or after the commit message if more bugs are fixed or related | 21:43 |
M4rtinK | eq. Related: rhbz#123456 Resolves: rhbz#123456 | 21:43 |
M4rtinK | it serves both for developers (you can reference commits to bugs) | 21:44 |
aard_ | for internal code there must be a bug reference in the changelog, though I'll get angry if you don't add a short comment what you did there as well | 21:44 |
M4rtinK | and automated tools make use of it | 21:44 |
M4rtinK | sure, no shitty commit messages allowed :) | 21:45 |
M4rtinK | we actually do all our code review for the Anaconda installer on a public mailing list kernel-style | 21:45 |
M4rtinK | one more reason to make it looks nice and informative | 21:46 |
M4rtinK | another is that you will be maintaining the code for (many) years to come, so it should be nice :) | 21:47 |
* aard_ refrains from commenting about 'fedora installer' | 21:47 | |
M4rtinK | well, I'm open to any suggestions for improvement and feedback | 21:48 |
aard_ | well, it would be helpful for a successful installation if the installer would start | 21:48 |
M4rtinK | indeed _ | 21:49 |
M4rtinK | what installation type were you trying ? | 21:49 |
aard_ | first usb, and after that didn't work, CD | 21:49 |
M4rtinK | BIOS or UEFI ? | 21:49 |
aard_ | bios | 21:49 |
aard_ | usb don't remember what went wrong, but blew up in interesting ways very early. from cd I had a black screen with a mouse cursor | 21:50 |
M4rtinK | and did you get at least to the boot menu (usually has one install & one check media & install option) | 21:50 |
M4rtinK | well, that's actually halfway there :) | 21:51 |
aard_ | usb iirc blew up with error messages trying to load the boot menu, cd probably went through, got me the black screen, and then nothing | 21:51 |
M4rtinK | bootloader->initrd (Dracut)->stage2 (GUI/TUI installer) | 21:51 |
M4rtinK | do you remember which tool did you use for making the USB ? | 21:52 |
aard_ | no | 21:52 |
M4rtinK | some are notoriously bad | 21:52 |
M4rtinK | like Unetbootin or generic make-bootable-sub tools on windows | 21:52 |
M4rtinK | *make-bootable-usb | 21:52 |
M4rtinK | that might explain the USB thing | 21:52 |
aard_ | I'm used to just dding a iso to usb, but iirc that didn't work, so I spent sime time installing some tool (which I don't remember, but was recommended on some fedora page) which didn't work in the end as well | 21:53 |
M4rtinK | as for the CD black screen, that indeed looks like our fault | 21:53 |
aard_ | tbh, if I can't just dd your installer to a usb stick it's broken | 21:53 |
M4rtinK | actually I think dd should work | 21:54 |
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M4rtinK | su -c "dd if=/Users/me/Downloads/Fedora-Live-Desktop-x86_64-20-1.iso of=/dev/sdX bs=8M" | 21:55 |
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M4rtinK | looking at the docs (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_create_and_use_Live_USB#Command_line_method:_Using_the_livecd-iso-to-disk_tool_.28Fedora_only.2C_non-graphical.2C_both_non-destructive_and_destructive_methods_available.29) | 21:55 |
aard_ | yes, didn't work | 21:56 |
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M4rtinK | BTW, was it a live or netinst medium ? | 21:56 |
M4rtinK | also, which version ? :) | 21:57 |
aard_ | just checked the irc-log back then, we wanted to set up some computers in similar ways, so I was discussing with a colleague (and that's the only reason why I didn't just walk away after 5 minutes) | 21:57 |
aard_ | the part where it went up to black screen had "error running metacity; sigchld caught when trying to start the X server" on a tty | 21:57 |
aard_ | and somewhere was an option to select basic graphics, which when selected ended in "Invalid or corrupt kernel image" | 21:58 |
M4rtinK | not sure about the basic graphic option | 21:59 |
aard_ | was on february 25th, whatever was released at that point. tried both netinst and live cds, verified iso, wrote each two times and verified the cds, tried installation on two different computers | 21:59 |
aard_ | alltogether spent about 4 hours just to conclude that it's utterly broken, and no point in trying | 21:59 |
M4rtinK | that would be F20, which is still the current stable version | 21:59 |
M4rtinK | so that means we are doing quite a bad job :P | 22:00 |
M4rtinK | especially if it it happens on different hardware | 22:01 |
aard_ | even used a debian rescue disk in between to get rid of the lvm on the disk and tried without partitions or some standard partition set in case it's the partitioner barfing | 22:01 |
aard_ | thinkpad x60 and thinkpad x200 | 22:01 |
aard_ | tried with cd connected via usb, and cd connected via sata in ultrabase | 22:01 |
M4rtinK | partitioning errors would look different and would show up much later | 22:02 |
M4rtinK | and I have seen the error you mention | 22:02 |
aard_ | I was getting desperate :p | 22:03 |
M4rtinK | it can mean basically two things - graphics dying for some reason (which would be pretty weird on X200, I have a X220) | 22:03 |
aard_ | it was the first time in almost 20 years of linux that I didn't manage to get even the installer up. and I've had to work on pretty exotic hardware over the years :p | 22:04 |
M4rtinK | or a race condition during X/metacity/Anaconda startup | 22:04 |
M4rtinK | you don't need to tell me about exotic hardware :) | 22:04 |
M4rtinK | we support S390 & PPC :) | 22:04 |
M4rtinK | _THAT_ is where the fun begins :) | 22:05 |
aard_ | done both | 22:05 |
tigeli | I had to setup pxe/tftp/dhcp on my laptop to get my mother-in-law's laptop's xp replaced with linux few months ago.. no usb-boot, nothing :D | 22:06 |
M4rtinK | like the S390 terminal that is basically a virtual line printer that can't go back :) | 22:06 |
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M4rtinK | and our TUI can work on that :) | 22:06 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: maybe let the guys working on that fix the x86 installer...? :p | 22:08 |
M4rtinK | aard_: anyway, if you had any logs left from your attempt or still wanted to give it a try we would be definitely interested in the logs :) | 22:08 |
M4rtinK | aard_: they are all in /tmp during the installation | 22:08 |
aard_ | not really, I ended up installing mint, and I'm probably done with fedora for a few years | 22:09 |
M4rtinK | no problem :) | 22:09 |
M4rtinK | and thanks for the constructive feedback :) | 22:10 |
aard_ | I ended that session back then by making sure I removed all isos, snapped the cds, and rewrote the usb stick to at least get rid of some of my frustration for wasted time | 22:10 |
M4rtinK | I can't even count the number of "Fedora/Anaconda BAD!" but no feedback if you ask what's wrong... | 22:11 |
aard_ | I'm not really surprised about that. if it blows up at that level without any useful debugging hints it's not even worth the trouble to go to you guys and tell you it's wrong, and without the irclog I'd probably just have said "ugh, it's bad" as well | 22:12 |
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M4rtinK | this is one of the nasty failure cases - if GUI startup fails halfway in | 22:13 |
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M4rtinK | we can usually detect if it fails outright and switch to TUI | 22:14 |
M4rtinK | but you case looks like it bombed out mid-way, leaving the system with black screen | 22:15 |
M4rtinK | works is only if it does not boot at all or dumps you in initrd shell | 22:15 |
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aard_ | it should be possible to figure out if ui startup fails in between, and then just make sure that it fails hard, and drop to a terminal | 22:17 |
aard_ | and at least add some information in the terminal where I can find debug output / how I can try to figure out what's wrong. or (better), how I can manually force it from there into a tui installer | 22:17 |
aard_ | that was the next problem, that I didn't find any usable info how to go from that state | 22:17 |
M4rtinK | that's a good point | 22:18 |
M4rtinK | there should be a TMUX running on TTY1 | 22:19 |
aard_ | and again: the only reason why I spent more than 5 minutes on that was that I was working with others, and we tried to get a consistent setup over several computers. that's probably the amount of time the people going "it's bad" are willing to spend there as well | 22:19 |
M4rtinK | currently it has something like "starting Anaconda <version>" on the default pane | 22:19 |
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aard_ | the only thing I found anywhere was the above message (probably including that starting, didn't note it as it's not really relevant) | 22:19 |
M4rtinK | it would be easy to add something like "if you see a black screen, try to use TUI or check the logs in /tmp" | 22:20 |
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M4rtinK | well, a black screen is definitely not the planed outcome :) | 22:20 |
aard_ | how do I get to tui? I couldn't figure out how to start in a text only installer (apart from the option I mentioned above in the boot menu, which barfed while loading the kernel image) | 22:21 |
M4rtinK | you just add "text" to the boot commandline | 22:21 |
M4rtinK | in the boot menu | 22:21 |
M4rtinK | (but there are of course many other options: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda_Boot_Options) | 22:22 |
M4rtinK | looks like this: https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/7/html/Installation_Guide/images/preinstallhub/preinstall_hub_txt.png | 22:23 |
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aard_ | ok, that page is not really what you want to go through completely if you just want to have a text installer. I might have even been there, and gave up as it's a pretty long read for something simple | 22:24 |
M4rtinK | I like your idea about the "banner" on TTY :) | 22:24 |
aard_ | well, it's what others have been doing for 10 years or so :p | 22:24 |
M4rtinK | that might indeed help | 22:25 |
M4rtinK | and should make it to F21 :) | 22:25 |
aard_ | will the text be blue? | 22:26 |
M4rtinK | on TTY ? | 22:26 |
aard_ | yes | 22:26 |
aard_ | http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTc4NjkwMTQ0Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTI1Mjg4NA@@._V1_SX214_AL_.jpg :p | 22:26 |
M4rtinK | well, a nice BSOD style screen would be doable | 22:26 |
M4rtinK | but I would be afraid about design patents | 22:26 |
M4rtinK | :) | 22:27 |
aard_ | na, I just meant the text, not the background | 22:27 |
* aard_ likes placing subtle references nobody ever will get | 22:27 | |
M4rtinK | so far we did not bother with colors for the TUI | 22:28 |
M4rtinK | but it would be possible if we can reliably detect dumb terminals that don't support it | 22:29 |
M4rtinK | could help even to the regular TUI readability :) | 22:29 |
M4rtinK | see, another idea :) | 22:29 |
M4rtinK | this "debugging" session is very fruitful ! :) | 22:30 |
aard_ | where should I send the consultant bill? :) | 22:31 |
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M4rtinK | well, I can get you a new F20 DVD :) | 22:33 |
M4rtinK | and a 3D printed Fedora logo | 22:34 |
M4rtinK | deal ? :) | 22:34 |
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aard_ | the logo sounds interesting :p | 22:36 |
aard_ | you actually still make proper dvds, or just "write it yourself" stuff? | 22:36 |
M4rtinK | we still have proper factory made DVDs | 22:38 |
aard_ | interesting. wasn't expecting that | 22:38 |
M4rtinK | and they are distributed to the whole EMEA from our local Red Hat office in Brno | 22:38 |
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aard_ | I think it was the first time ever I used the cd writer in my workstation when the usb boot failed. and the drives for the notebook I first had to search in some box with old hardware | 22:39 |
M4rtinK | it is a bundle of long paper boxes, each with a couple hundred DVDs | 22:40 |
M4rtinK | and you need to move it on a dolly to get it to the office :) | 22:40 |
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aard_ | how many people actually use that? | 22:40 |
aard_ | if somebody gives me a cd I usually just go "ok. and how exactly am I supposed to get to the data on there?" | 22:40 |
M4rtinK | and a coworker handles the distribution :) | 22:40 |
M4rtinK | well, there are still users of slightly older hardware that have DVD drives | 22:41 |
lpotter | aard_: magic marker | 22:42 |
aard_ | lpotter: I tried using cds as sticky notes, but noticed that they suck at sticking | 22:42 |
M4rtinK | I guess it could be handy in schools, community centers, etc. | 22:42 |
lpotter | harddrive platters make cool wind chimes | 22:42 |
M4rtinK | some of these places where these go (individual Fedora user groups and ambasadors send request and get baoxes with DVDs, Fedora t-shirt,stickers etc.) don't have advanced infrastructure or fast internet | 22:43 |
aard_ | M4rtinK: my x60 is now over 8 years old. when I bought it cds and dvds already were some kind of obscure artifact from a different time. what kind of ancient hardware are you targeting? :p | 22:44 |
M4rtinK | well, you need just one DVD drive :) | 22:44 |
M4rtinK | an external one | 22:44 |
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M4rtinK | or you can dd the DVD to USB stick | 22:44 |
M4rtinK | or even use the DVD as a repository | 22:45 |
aard_ | ...which I can't find when I need it, because the last time I needed it was 3+ years ago | 22:45 |
M4rtinK | (there are some really crazy ways how to install Fedora) | 22:45 |
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M4rtinK | we can boot with a small boot iso and mount the stage2 from a file on NFs for example | 22:46 |
M4rtinK | *NFS | 22:46 |
aard_ | is there a distribution not supporting that? | 22:47 |
M4rtinK | well, it isn't that special of a feature :) | 22:48 |
aard_ | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures <- you never supported alpha? | 22:48 |
M4rtinK | why support Alpha when you have Itanic! :D | 22:49 |
aard_ | because I have two alpha boxes, and 0 itanic boxes :p | 22:49 |
aard_ | and no sparc support anymore. for powerpc I need to get a working psu again, but I doubt you'd support that old box anyway | 22:50 |
M4rtinK | looks like we do Power5+ | 22:51 |
aard_ | I have an old rs6000 | 22:52 |
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M4rtinK | hmm, that looks to be only up to POWER2 in some models | 22:53 |
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M4rtinK | but look at it from the bright side - you can finally start with LFS! :) | 22:56 |
aard_ | I stopped building my custom distribution somewhere in 2004 | 22:56 |
M4rtinK | well, you are kinda back at it with Sailfish OS :) | 22:57 |
aard_ | I mean as in "without getting paid for it" | 22:57 |
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M4rtinK | yeah, that's an important detail :) | 22:58 |
M4rtinK | BTW, looks like you are not the only one with the black screen bug: | 22:59 |
M4rtinK | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?format=multiple&id=862602 | 22:59 |
M4rtinK | looks like it has been there from at least F18 | 22:59 |
aard_ | yes, iirc my colleague noted that somebody had this issue with f18 back then | 22:59 |
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M4rtinK | but that bugreport looks like it was in a VM | 23:02 |
M4rtinK | but you had it on baremetal with verified DVD & reproducible (so not a one-in-a-while race) | 23:03 |
M4rtinK | *once | 23:04 |
aard_ | like I said earlier, I'd assume several of the people just saying "anaconda sucks" (or just going away without saying anything) had similar experiences | 23:07 |
M4rtinK | yes, that is unfortunately quite probable | 23:07 |
M4rtinK | anyway, time to call it a day :) | 23:12 |
aard_ | same here | 23:12 |
M4rtinK | I need to get up early tomorrow to implement your idea :) | 23:12 |
aard_ | you're only allowed to work on that early? ;) | 23:12 |
M4rtinK | I just wanted it to sound lofty :D | 23:13 |
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M4rtinK | anyway, good night :) | 23:15 |
M4rtinK | and thanks for the feedback! :) | 23:15 |
aard_ | good night | 23:15 |
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