#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2014-11-23

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coderusJust created indiegogo campaign to support myself as developer. Contribute if you're interested in me! http://igg.me/at/coderus00:46
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kimmolisupported00:55
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swift110_hello all01:10
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swift110_all these people and its this quiet01:48
Ezkomost are from europe probably01:48
swift110_oh01:50
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tadzik(yes)01:53
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pahartikswift1102: What happened to your network uplink?02:13
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swift1102dont knpw02:26
swift1102anyway im here02:26
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swift1102i wanted to download jolla os and play with it in virtualbox02:31
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Teemuare there any sleep monitoring applications for jolla?08:45
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Teemualso, how are third and fourteenth party applications installed? via cli yum?08:45
tango_sleep monitoring applications?08:46
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coderustango_: i saw some app in harbour or openrepos08:48
coderusshouwing screen activity in percentage08:48
coderusTeemu: ^08:48
Teemuapps that monitor sleep cycles and wake you up during the prespecified waking up window whenever the sleep cycle is at a suitable phase08:49
coderusand dont understand question anout applications08:49
Teemudifferent sleep, i'm talking about human sleep here :)08:49
Sfiet_KonstantinTeemu: qThread::sleep(10);08:50
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tango_Sfiet_Konstantin: lol08:51
tango_well how would the phone know your sleep cycle?08:52
Teemucoderus: let me rephrase the app question: how to install stuff that is not in jolla store? mostly from sources08:52
tango_record the breathing?08:52
Teemui had something for the n900 that monitored my sleep and then woke me up nicely08:52
Teemucannot remember the app name08:52
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Teemuwell that was hard to find: http://www.ruinelli.ch/maemo/sleepanalyser08:53
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japa-fiTeemu: You used to have N900 and now with Jolla? How long have you had Jolla?09:02
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coderusTeemu: many ways09:03
coderus1. click on rpm in filemanager09:03
coderus2. click on rpm in transfers page09:03
coderus3. using pkcon in console09:03
coderus4. install and use zypper in console09:03
Teemujapa-fi: my mother in law bought jolla from the first run and now i bought mine just a week or so before slush09:04
Teemui was late in this mostly due to not having too much money hanging around for secondary spending purposes09:05
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japa-fiTeemu, I'm seriously considering getting jolla while they are on discount (250€). I have N900 too. Have you come across any major shortcomings with jolla (aside the lack of keyboard)09:05
YanielI've been using it as my main for almost a year now ^^09:06
Teemumostly when using it it brings me happy memories from how the n900 worked (its musb broke down so its been sitting unused for a while)09:06
Stskeepsdid you know our chief designer was behind n900 ui too?09:06
Yanielthe battery issue was a bit annoying until I did the paper trick09:07
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Yanieland tracker still hasn't brought my cover.jpgs back to media player09:07
Teemui've been getting free little-used android phones from said mother in law as temporary solutions and they've been driving me crazy09:07
TeemuStskeeps: didn't, but it's not surprising given the similarities and jolla history09:08
Teemunow do all of you drive saabs or is it just your sysadmin dude?09:08
japa-fiYaniel, battery issue?09:11
Yanielrandom reboots09:11
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Yanielapparently caused by the battery contacts being inset too much09:11
japa-fiRef: cover.jpg - do you have them embedded in the .mp3 files or separate cover.jpg with the .mp3?09:11
Yanielseparate files09:12
Yanielone for each folder09:12
japa-fiYaniel, by any chance, you don't happen to have sonos ?09:14
Yanielwhat?09:14
TeguI had random reboot issues a few updates back but fortunately now there have been none. And I haven't had to do thd paper trick unlike many others. weird09:14
YanielI did the paper trick and since it has been quite stable09:15
Yanielhad to cut a bit off the TOH when I got a flipcase09:15
japa-fiYaniel, never mind. It's a home media system/player. It also takes cover art from cover.jpg or folder.jpg.09:15
Yanielah, no I don't09:15
Yanielbecause the TOH would get pressed against the power button way too tightly09:15
japa-fiOne of the reasons I have virtual windows image on my computer, because the controller application is only for android, ios, windows, mac.09:16
Yanielresulting again in random shutdowns09:16
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Yanielcover.jpg/folder.jpg/*png is quite standard afaik09:21
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entilermagerd! qt-project.org is down?09:28
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entilyay, came back up09:28
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entilthere has to be a name for this law... wait forever before saying that on irc, and it comes back up immediately09:29
Teemuit's related to rule 3409:30
ggabrieli'm sure it's one of the corollaries of murphy's law09:30
entilbut I got to say that now that I started doing qt5 without the IDE I have a lot more respect for the build system and all09:31
entilI figured if I get at least some similitude of a textsecure client (library) out there, it might get traction09:31
entilso there needs to be a CLI "app" for testing it, and a dummy http server (in python) for the same reason, just to figure out how things like QUrl work09:32
Teemuref me a bit on how the build system works? is it using bog standard make or some javaxmlstuff or yet another completely new build system you have to learn from ground up?09:32
entilno, it's the kind of stuff you'd hate at first :P there's a .pro file whose syntax looks like you're building on top of unknown assumptions, like QT -= gui09:33
entiland CONFIG += console09:33
Teemui run into ant when playing around with the arduino ide modifications and have to say: it's not helping09:33
entiland then something called qmake will construct a Makefile for it09:33
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entilit also introspects some code, like, you inherit a class from QObject, you got to say Q_OBJECT; on it so qmake will recognize the metacompilation09:34
entil1) I might not be good in explaining this 2) I might be wrong because I found this stuff myself, instead of finding a documentation09:34
entilanyway, qmake && make is basically what it looks like09:34
entiland the .pro file is infinitely nicer than a Makefile09:34
entiland you don't even need qmake all that often, only when you change the .pro file, eg. by adding a new code file to it09:35
Teemusounds somewhat reasonable09:36
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entilthe Q_OBJECT; macro hit me hard. of course I'd seen it before in the sailfish sdk ide, but now I'm not doing that yet, so I forgot to include it09:37
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Teemumakefiles often need some kind of wrap-around meta to build the makefiles09:37
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entilI have nfi if qt apps can be built with less than what qmake puts in the makefile, but the makefile is insane09:38
Teemuelse you'll end up pretty easily with a loooooot of complex make macros and includes and lets be honest: programming with make isn't exacly enjoyable09:38
entilhttp://pastebin.com/9xrhMduY <- that's the Makefile now09:38
Teemuthere was a real reason why autotools emerged in the early 1990s even though it was even more horrible than just making the makefiles complex enough09:38
entilyeah, I get annoyed as fsck when I have to get distracted by ... anything, really ... and at first I gave up on this all because of the .pro file, and the sailfish sdk, and everything coming in my way09:39
entilbut I think I'm really starting to love qt now09:40
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Teemuso what kind of apps you're about to do?09:43
entiltextsecure09:43
entilthat is, an ApiClient class for it and a simple cli tool to commandeer it09:44
entilthen the next step would be to integrate that into a sailfish project and slap the mitakuuluu architecture on it09:44
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TemeVentil: I had same kind of feeling, when I started writing my Telegramm app. Took me some time to really get started, bacause everything was new, I ran out of patience and gave up :)09:50
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entilalso: telegram's not worth it ;P09:52
entilTemeV: if you're interested in textsecure, I'll let you know when I have something to show09:52
TemeVit's better that whatsapp09:52
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entiljust by what I've read of the crypto in it, I'd almost prefer whatsapp, but mostly textsecure09:52
TemeVit's not about crypto09:53
entilto me it largely is09:53
entiland openness09:53
TemeVit's about having desktopt client, and server that doesn't ban me09:53
entiltelegram doesn't have an opensource server :(09:53
TemeVyeah, that's bad09:53
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entilyeah, you know, I'm aiming to have a desktop client for textsecure here if possible09:53
TemeVI'm not really familiar with textsecure, can I have multible clients at the same time?09:54
entillike I said, I need to do some kind of cli tool to commandeer the apiclient class, so someone could expand that into a qt desktop app09:54
entilTemeV: not exactly sure09:54
Teemuyou could make it a weechat plugin and then have multiple clients connect to weechat09:54
entilmy immediate concern is having something that talks to the textsecure api and my primary concern is getting this on the phone, anything else is bonus09:55
TemeVtextsecure sounds nice, but I don't want yet another IM, that I can't use with all my devices at the same time09:55
entilthen either you'll get lucky or you're shit out of luck, or maybe a magic third option09:55
entilthe basic tenet of opensource is that if you want it and it doesn't exist, do it for yourself (but don't make it too hard for others to contribute)09:56
TemeVI'm always annoyed to send message with Whatsapp, when I would have proper keyboard infront of me09:56
TemeVbut just can't because there is no app09:56
entilok09:56
Teemuentil: a magic third option i just presented09:56
entilwell, let's see if there's some possibility to collaborate on this later09:57
Teemuso you should make a textsecure weechat plugin and then join Nicd- in the effort to produce a sailfishos weechat relay client09:57
entilbut to make it absolutely clear, I'm usually very busy and I have a personal roadmap in this, so I can't be arsed by distractions like weechat plugins09:57
entilI don't even know what weechat is or why I'd care :P09:58
entilI liked mitakuuluu and I want that app with crypto09:58
entil-> textsecure09:58
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Teemuweechat is a pluggable IM client that happens to have plugins for irc and some other nonrelevant IM protocols09:59
Teemualso a weechat instance running on vps in some data dungeon can be connected to multiple remotes with crypto10:00
Teemuso i can have the same weechat displayed on a laptop, desktop, tablet and phone if i like10:00
coderusentil: i hope we have success in this yeah :D10:00
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Teemuoh one more thing: shouldn't the maps app run on background during a phone call?10:02
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Teemusome days ago i was happily navigating via a known route just for the heck of it, got a phone call for ten or so minutes and the maps app clearly continued from where the call was answered and shortly jumped to current location10:03
Teemuhow hard it is to run n900 applications on a jolla phone? what about compiling/porting?10:04
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nbghi, is there an app that allows me to use the jolla microphone on my computer running pulse? I thought maybe something like that should be possible, transferring the input stream from jolla to another pulse client, and configuring the client to use this stream as microphone input. not sure about the sound quality though.10:44
Teemuentil: are you mjt or mjtorn or what in github?10:49
entilTeemu: mjtorn10:49
entilI'd love to go by mjt but running out of namespace, and a lot of sites don't even take three-letter users anymore10:49
Teemuthe old yatla-problem10:50
entilwhat's that? something something three-letter acronym?10:51
Teemuyet another tla10:51
entilalso: whoever decided to use anything but docopt is a d*ck10:51
entilqt's command-line parsing is (surpriz...) just as bad as everything that's not docopt10:52
Teemuwel10:53
Teemul10:53
Teemui suspect they just followed the gnu getopt which has always sucked superbadly compared to any other option parser10:53
Teemuif your comparison is getopt, you can do a shitty job and call yourself hero because your parser is better10:54
entilmaybe I shouldn't have heart attacks and strokes over this crap, but whenever you need to do command-line parsing (without docopt) the only reaction is "didn't anyone actually try to use this before releasing, because no one would ever do this"10:54
Teemugetopt is much like bash, "had to do quick bad stuff TO HAVE GPL SOLUTION no matter if it is good or not"10:54
entilI've used gnu getopt in school 10 years ago, can't remember, but this is the enterprisy way of constructing every option with at least two lines of code and setting them into the parser etc10:54
entilhttp://qt-project.org/doc/qt-5/qcommandlineparser.html10:55
Teemuwithout the linux kernel going gpl, the whole fsf would not have had that much traction and the world would be a lot freer place now10:55
Yanielhow ironic10:55
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Nicd-Teemu: depends on the N900 app but things that are missing include X, GTK and Qt411:12
Nicd-so it could be pretty hard to port some11:12
* Morpog_PC wonders what RC number the Jolla sailors are testing atm11:12
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Morpog_PCabout 3 weeks back it was RC311:12
StskeepsRC-hell.11:14
Stskeeps:P11:14
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coderushellyeah :D11:14
Morpog_PC:D11:14
tango_well, most qt4 apps can be ported to qt5 quite straightforwardly11:14
tango_(althought they might not have that native SailfishOS look)11:15
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jonfenhi12:19
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jonfennot sure if I should ask this here or in #sailfishos, but I'd be glad if someone could tell me more about privacy & security options and the possibilities of manually setting up encryption with cryptsetup and the like, the original question was posted on reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2n09h9/jolla_takes_100_off_the_price_of_jolla_phone_to/cm9rel612:35
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secI can answer a few questions from that post: temporarily deactivating account synchronization was impossible - It is possible. pictures in emails were loaded automatically without an option to turn that off - There is an option. there was no option to reject single cookies or all of them - Not an option as of now.12:42
secAlso, it seems that there is no way of encrypting files, email and xmpp chats. - I am very sure GPG/PGP works.12:42
Nicd-umm, pictures in emails aren't loaded by default12:44
Nicd-or is it a setting?12:44
secYep, there's a button and a setting12:44
Nicd-ah yeah, it's a setting12:44
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jonfensec: ok, thanks!12:58
jonfenanybody know something about cryptsetup?12:59
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japa-fijonfen: Used it with fedora13:12
juhajAny info on Jolla Phone 2 yet? Is such a thing coming?13:14
Yanielno data on that13:14
Nc_or, Jolla Phone 2 is 7-inch, and not a phone :)13:14
juhajNc_: I think that sentence is self-contradictory13:16
Nc_very13:20
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cryoratNc_, :DD13:37
cryoratjuhaj, the announcement will be made during the next year13:38
jonfenjapa-fi: I was actually thinking about cryptsetup on jolla ;)13:39
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stephgjonfen: I think cryptsetup would be fine13:44
stephgthe device mapper stuff I'm not so sure13:44
* stephg has never looked tho13:45
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jonfenI'd love to try but then I'd have to buy and no encryption is really not my thing :(13:45
jonfenin case it didn't work...13:45
stephgwell jollas are cheap as chips at the moment :)13:45
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jonfen250€ is still a considerable amount of money for me tho plus I had been planning to postpone the upgrde from my dumb phone for another 1-2 years13:48
jonfenand then jolla tempted me :D13:48
jonfenbrb13:49
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jonfenre13:51
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juhajcryorat: The end of next year is possibly a bit distant… must consider >:/13:56
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chem|stre13:57
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M4rtinKwell one issue could be that the btrfs filesystem is on a boatload of partitions14:10
M4rtinKyou you would have to first get them together somehow (mdraid/lvm)14:10
M4rtinKthen create LUKS on that with crptsetup and then place BTFS on top14:10
M4rtinK*BTRFS14:11
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secI have been having weird bugs where my phone just turns off randomly when using random applications14:18
secJust happened while taking a picture14:18
Stskeepscontact care14:19
secStskeeps: is this the one where the battery connections were lose?14:20
Stskeepsno clue, but i hear shutdowns and i reply care14:20
Stskeeps:P14:20
sechm :<14:20
secI think it's a reproduceable bug. My current camera settings make the phone shut down :P I've tried this ~5 times now. If I change them, it stops happening.14:22
Stskeepssec: how low battery14:22
Stskeeps?14:22
sec87%14:22
Nicd-what settings?14:23
Stskeeps87% sounds a bit like a magic value..14:24
secNicd-: Stskeeps: Exposure setting at +2 with 3seconds delay is causing it on my phone. Can you check if it happens with you?14:27
secWorking fine otherwise14:27
tigelisec: can't reproduce14:28
sec:/14:29
M4rtinKnothing here too14:29
M4rtinKeven tried with flash14:29
secEverything else is on Auto14:29
secOnly 3x3 grids14:29
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tbrsec: do you have shutdowns outside of the camera app?14:39
secOnce yes earlier, can't recall which app it was14:40
secOtherwise it's been stable as a rock14:41
tbrconsider cleaning battery contacts, both sides, carefully.14:41
secYes, will do14:42
tbreven reseating the battery repeatedly might help, as it slightly shoves over the surface14:42
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Morpog_PCsec, clean the battery contacts, add a little sheet of paper to gain some more pressure to the contacts14:53
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Morpog_PCStskeeps, link to Jolla shop on indiegogo page doesn't work15:26
Morpog_PCin that 2nd update15:26
Stskeepswill poke people15:26
Teemuhave any had problems with uitukka?15:26
Teemui've not yet opted in and am considering waiting for the next, if it makes any sense15:26
Morpog_PCStskeeps, also the link to together15:26
Morpog_PCand link to slush page :D15:27
TurskiTeemu: it's generally sluggish15:27
M4rtinKbut it is better with zram15:29
M4rtinKthe zram module has been rebuilt, so ti works now with it15:30
M4rtinK*it15:30
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Morpog_PCM4rtinK, most sluggishness I had with uitukka was full btrfs15:31
Morpog_PCafter a rebalance it was much more smooth and alot less laggy15:31
Teemumother in law reports connection keeping trouble with uitukka but i'm having some of that with whatever i now have15:32
Teemuhold on15:32
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Turskii still think btrfs was a bad choice for sailfish15:32
Teemu1.0.8.2115:33
Teemuis btrfs somehow optimized for raw flash?15:33
Morpog_PCI think it was a decission made in an awkwardness situation where they were forced to use it15:33
M4rtinKwell I think more and more that btrfs is always a bad choice :)15:33
M4rtinKa bit too many data corruption/kernel panic threads on the btrfs mailing list lately15:34
Turskii prefer ext4 on my machines15:34
M4rtinKand overall some interesting design decisions15:34
TurskiTeemu: i don't think so15:34
TurskiTeemu: instead f2fs is optimized for flash15:34
M4rtinKI mostly use LVM + XFS these days15:34
Turskii use just ext415:35
M4rtinKmodern LVM & modern XFS provides most features of btrfs15:35
Morpog_PCI don't think we will see btrfs on the tablet15:35
M4rtinKbut feels much more robust :)15:35
Teemuwhat's the btrfs about then? russian military vehicles?15:35
TurskiMorpog_PC: but they will be able to upgrade to more recent kernel with tablet15:36
M4rtinKLOL15:36
Teemubrooktree video grabbers?15:36
Morpog_PCTurski, well, depends on Intel this time :D15:36
M4rtinKI wote for LVM thin pool with XFS on top on the tablet! :)15:36
Turskii thought it was said that it has intel graphics15:36
Teemui prefer zfs or ufs+ but then i'm using free software instead of Free Software15:36
M4rtinKthat gives you CoW snapshots for factory recovery15:36
Turskiand i believe the drivers for that chipset are already upstream15:36
Morpog_PCTurski, they do use android blobs for sure15:37
M4rtinKand the same configuration is heavily used in enterprise so it should actually work, #unlike btrfs :)15:37
TurskiMorpog_PC: for what?15:37
Morpog_PCgraphics15:37
TurskiMorpog_PC: it's intel hardware, it has open source drivers15:37
Morpog_PCeven the android ones?15:38
* Morpog_PC is suspicious15:38
Turskithere's no "android" chips, it's Atom15:38
Turski& intel HD graphics15:38
Morpog_PC???15:38
Morpog_PCwith that said you could use windows drivers :D15:38
Turskiwell, you could install windows on that15:39
Turskiit's x86_64 hardware15:39
Morpog_PCbut you can't use windows driver on android15:39
Morpog_PCand you can't use linux drivers on android15:39
TurskiIT DOESN'T HAVE AN ANDROID15:39
Turskifor god's sake...15:39
Morpog_PCTurski, it will use libhybris15:39
Turskiwhy would it?15:39
tbrlet's ask this way around: are there wayland drivers?15:39
Turskitbr: yes15:40
Morpog_PCoptimized drivers15:40
tbrTurski: and do they work well with 3d and everything?15:40
TurskiMorpog_PC: no, no, no15:40
Turskitbr: yes15:40
Morpog_PCTurski, I think Stskeeps already told so15:40
tbrTurski: then I'd imagine that it will be possible to use those.15:40
tbrthe out of the box state is on a whole different page15:40
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TurskiMorpog_PC: oh? url?15:41
Morpog_PChere in this channel a few days back15:41
Morpog_PCi linked it on TMO15:42
tbrlogs are public, see topic15:42
Morpog_PCTurski, http://www.merproject.org/logs/%23jollamobile/%23jollamobile.2014-11-19.log.html15:44
Morpog_PCand http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1448164#post144816415:44
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TurskiMorpog_PC: ok, damn15:46
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Turskibut that hardware however has native linux drivers as far as i understand15:47
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Turski"understandable, but they also have to remember that if you say A) hwcomposer then you need to say B) gralloc and C) android libegl"15:53
Turskithat's probably the important bit15:53
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M4rtinKsure, but alternative distros such as Nemo Mobile can still use the open drivers15:56
M4rtinKthat's quite a big point15:56
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locusfthat is if we can get a suitable hardware adaptation running16:00
locusfcureently Nemo uses the same adaptation as sailfish16:00
* tbr has a minnowboardMax here and might play around with it, including nemo16:01
tbr(it's also a baytrail part)16:01
Stskeepsi want to make as a test that either nemo or ubuntu touch is installable on the thing.16:03
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Stskeepsi can't guarantee x11 based stuff.16:03
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M4rtinKStskeeps: or maybe Fedora ? :)16:13
M4rtinKStskeeps: there is some work in progress for Bay Trail tablets by Adam Williamson: https://www.happyassassin.net/fedlet-a-fedora-remix-for-bay-trail-tablets/16:13
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Yanieljavispedro: soo running tracker-control -s doesn't cause .mediaartlocal folders to appear16:45
YanielI assume that is why cover art doesn't show16:46
Yanielexcept for albums that are mp3 with embedded art, those get .mediaartlocal16:46
Yanielis the applications miner not getting run possbly related?16:47
javispedrodoubt it16:47
Yanielit is still throwing the no dbus proxy for miner error at me16:48
javispedrothe good news is that in the opt-in update all my non-embedded albumart disappeared16:48
javispedroso at some point I should be able to throw tracker under the magnifying glass16:49
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Yanielyay, what do they say, schadenfreude...16:51
Yanielanyway, embedded still works for me16:51
Yanielnon-embedded does not16:51
Yanielor wait16:52
fennekkiWait, is it possible to make all of this cover art disappear from my gallery16:52
fennekkiwhich is around 90% cover art16:52
fennekkithe actual photographs are interspersed somewhere in there16:52
javispedroYaniel: I've noticed that the non-embedded albumart for mp3 still shows; for m4a is missing.16:53
javispedroI'm having déjà vu though.16:53
Yanielactually there is one album with with cover.jpg that works16:53
Yanieland that album is mp316:53
Yanielthe m4a with embedded art doesn't work16:54
Yanieland neither does any of the flac with cover.jpg16:54
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Yanieland while we are at it, mediaplayer has a hilarious bug now16:55
Yanielwhen choosing shuffle all, it creates a play queue with all songs and sets random on, okay16:55
Yanielbut now if I remove a song from the queue16:56
Yanielit does that just fine16:56
Yanielbt when I try to remove another, it actually removes the one *before* that16:56
javispedroah, remorse timer issues?16:56
Yanielno remorse timers there at all iirc16:57
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Yanieland no it i no timing thing16:57
Yanielbbl16:58
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comradekinguHow is 2048x1536 more dense on 7.9 inches than on 7.85? (326 vs 320)  https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/1032330/files/20141120083547-comparison-table.png?141650134718:42
Ezkosays 330 on jolla18:42
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secI don't see anything wrong18:43
comradekinguEzko: yes, thats less dense than the 336 on the (bigger) ipad3 mini18:43
secYou mean 326?18:43
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Ezkoyeah18:44
Ezko330 and 32618:44
Ezkonot 330 and 336 or 320 and 32618:44
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comradekinguriiight, disregard disregard ;)18:44
comradekinguwhile im here, is there a keyboard planned, and if so, will it dock also in vertical alignment?18:45
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Teemuthey keyboard is detachable and only in horizontal position, much as in n900 but detachable18:46
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seccomradekingu: given how much support the keyboard got for the phone, I would wager an affirmative.18:47
comradekinguTeemu: could an adapter be made so that you can fix it to both positions?18:47
Teemui think such an adapter could be made18:48
dunpTOH to tablet?18:48
Teemuto clarify, i was speaking of the phone keyboard18:48
comradekingui imagine a bigger keyboard would make sense, but i hope it will happen18:48
comradekinguthe intel microcode is whats holding me off atm18:49
Teemua bluetooth keyboard would work18:49
secBetter than libhybris crap18:50
comradekingua silicon cable extending to the otg port would work a little better18:50
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comradekingui dont have to use libhybris, i dont see why that would come into play on the tablet though18:51
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Stskeepsoi, libhybris isn't crap.. :P18:52
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Stskeepsit's the only thing that has made it realistically possible to have non-android mobile OS'es where people don't write their own drivers as they own the chipsets..18:53
secI know I know, but not depending on libhybris is better imo18:53
seclibhybris is awesome otherwise18:53
secAnd crucial to Jolla in the long run18:53
Stskeepsyes, notably that we're not depending on it18:54
Stskeepswe architect specifically so we can use open implementation IF they are performing, stable and functioning appropiately.18:54
secThe more Nexus' you have running Sailfish, the better :P18:54
comradekinguStskeeps: it is still possible to get good hardware with proper drivers, if whats making your mobile os mobile is libhybris its a compromise to begin with18:55
Stskeepseverything is a compromise.. :P18:55
Stskeepsand i've tried 'made for gnu/linux x11 drivers' in a product..18:55
Stskeepsthat was not a happy experience.18:55
secHehe18:56
comradekinguopen linux drivers is the benchmark18:56
Stskeepsi hope that one day we have enough sailfishos users that adaptations get made for sailfishos from start, not android.18:56
Stskeepsbut today that's not the case.18:56
comradekinguin the long run ill take badly written ones over closed android drivers18:57
Stskeepsnod18:57
Stskeepsthat's where you and i are probably different :)18:57
Stskeepsi want to give users a great experience18:57
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Stskeepsand focus on making great OS'es in that area; as drivers and GPUs and CPUs change between products anyway18:57
comradekinguStskeeps: meanwhile sailfishos is currently buying into what makes android dominant18:57
Stskeepsthere's really no other choice..18:58
secYep, bad code is bad code and should not be supported unless under death threats18:58
tbrthe death threat is real: not shipping a product at all18:58
TeemuStskeeps: likewise i'm more interested in how good software i can give ell-i devices than if they're following The Correct Semantic Freedom With Capital Letters(TM)18:58
Stskeepshttp://mer-project.blogspot.com/2013/04/wayland-utilizing-android-gpu-drivers.html18:58
Stskeepsis my view on this anyway18:59
Teemualso: i have sideburns, not a full beard so i'm entitled to using whatever software i want to18:59
Stskeepswith meego dying, the interest in non-android systems is gone, basically18:59
Stskeepsfrom chipset vendor PoV18:59
comradekingui didnt know people with sideburns took so unkindly to sound logic18:59
w00tStskeeps: tizen will save us all19:00
secI belieeve one day, someone will accidentally upload Maemo/Meego sources to the internet19:00
Teemucomradekingu: i prefer freedom to Freedom(as defined by one hippie)19:00
secYou know, misclicks19:00
Stskeepssec: i wouldn't even want to use those..19:00
comradekinguTeemu: you prefer ill logic to logic, dont expand on that19:00
StskeepsMTF. ick.19:00
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secStskeeps: as long as my n900 lives19:00
secBetter than freemangordon reversing 30k lines of code every night :P19:01
Stskeepswhich reminds me about 'leaked code'..: http://libv.livejournal.com/26972.html19:01
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comradekinguhow many jollaphones are there in the wild?19:02
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comradekinguI think going for what the n900 got right makes sense, that seems to be a viable market19:02
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secI was happy running pure Debian on my N900, and then I lost the magnet19:04
secWhoever made that design decision should be shot and fed to cats19:04
Stskeepsi wonder how many will run x86_64 debian on the jolla tablet.19:04
comradekingui would19:05
Stskeepsin chroot or kvm or whichever19:05
comradekinguor maybe the standard mer19:05
secIf someday Jolla the company does an Elop (lets hope not), I would :P19:05
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comradekinguhoping the next phone from jolla makes it viable to run a truly linxu|Gnu system19:07
secI have a feeling the next phone is going to be with a chinese OEM in partnership19:08
comradekinguI dont really use phones or tablets, but i am considering, just to support something done right19:08
Stskeepssec: all phones are, to be honest.19:08
Stskeepswell, it is already a systemd/linux device with gnu userland deep down..19:08
Stskeepssec: or ODM19:08
secErr, yeah, that's what I meant19:08
comradekinguuuuuugh19:08
Stskeepsstallman would never use it, but..19:09
secIt doesn't make sense to have the headaches of an in-house device, when that's not even your product19:09
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Stskeepsgood enough for me(TM)19:09
secYeah, if we all started browsing the web like stallman, the world would come to an end19:09
comradekinguBut why not do better?19:09
Nicd-because it's not commercially viable :P19:09
comradekinguis jolla commercially viable now?19:10
Stskeepswe are trying all the time, but have to remember that food in stomach and house over head is needed in order to code open source..19:10
Nicd-well it's selling19:10
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Nicd-it's available in multiple countries19:10
comradekinguStskeeps: open source is what ms is doing nowadays, its profitable, but not sustainable19:10
secwut? ms? open source?19:11
comradekinguIm thinking it could sell a lot more19:11
Stskeepsus using a more open gpu driver won't make it sell more though .. a better experience would19:11
sec^^^^^^^19:11
comradekingusec: yes, the very important distinction to how open source is meaningless for all areas where it would matter19:11
comradekinguStskeeps: how are those two comparable?19:12
secThat's the point, they're not, they're different areas on a priority list19:12
comradekinguI dont know that the user experience is where the shoe doesnt fit, but certainly a better set of drivers helps19:12
secThey can open source everything once their devices are selling like hot cakes19:12
comradekinguand meanwhile?19:13
secIf they do so now, some chinese manufacturer will be mass producing clones next week19:13
comradekinguand?19:13
secand calling it jPhone 6 Plus Plus19:13
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comradekinguThats a first-world-problem that jolla doesnt have19:14
* Stskeeps looks at popcorn bag..19:14
comradekinguNor one that gets solved by having a libhybris and systemd software onboard19:14
comradekinguLets be honest here, jolla benefits from mer, in turn from old nokia, and whatever intel/TI contributed19:15
Stskeepsat same time though, jolla also contributes quite a lot back.19:15
comradekinguAnd thats distinctly different from android, being the market leader, in that its better for the sake of making something more free, and less controlled19:15
comradekinguall good19:15
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secStskeeps: offline maps pls thnx19:16
comradekinguIt seems to me all these people who could be jolla customers are not because they dont use their phones as smartphones, since they cant be trusted19:16
comradekinguand untill recently, it offered no valid input methods for technically apt users19:17
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comradekingugetting big by doing the semi-right thing isnt the best way to go about things, google is already much better at it, and does worse19:18
secYep, better go bankrupt doing the right thing19:19
Stskeepsi really indeed love eating soup from stone.19:20
Stskeepsopen source has to be sustainable.19:20
Stskeepsit's not cheap doing competitive experiences in mobile space.19:20
comradekingusec: RIM is steadfast at going bankrupt, and they are doing even less of the right thing19:20
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comradekinguI dont know what kind of numbers game jolla is playing, but they certainly are not above scoffing at extra foss customers19:21
secThere is a *LOT* of difference between RIM and Jolla19:21
Stskeepscomradekingu: in the time it takes to make a open gpu driver i can fix a large amount of complaints from our users in the software stack..19:22
Stskeeps(as a rather rude example)19:22
Stskeepswe can't fight all battles.19:22
StskeepsAndroid is claimed as open source but for a large majority of what you touch on factual selling Android devices, are nowhere nearby open source.19:23
Stskeepsand is getting more and more locked down.19:23
comradekinguStskeeps: its more about winning the war. If you state that its possible to run debian out of the box on the tablet, what exactly does that hurt?19:23
alteregoThere's a war?19:23
comradekinguBang, more users, that are very technically able to overcome hurdles, and contribute back a lot19:24
alteregoJolla just wants a little bit of the ocean :)19:24
* sec pokes alterego with a stick19:24
alteregoAnymore is a bonus.19:24
seccome at me bro19:24
alteregolol19:24
Stskeepscomradekingu: you're probably able to run debian but if you want a working GPU...?19:24
Stskeepsor take pictures with the camera..19:24
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comradekinguyes, but is it overall a sound idea to just keep using hardware that gets deprecated artifically as android drivers arent updated?19:25
sharpnelicomradekingu: It's all about how many more euros will additional users bring vs the cost of implementing the drivers.19:25
secWell, technically you wouldn't be missing much if the camera didn't work19:25
* sec hides19:25
sharpneliOr versus the cost of selecting another chipset19:25
sharpneliIntel is basically donating those bay trails because they're desperate to enter android market19:25
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comradekingusharpneli: on the tablet the drivers are already free, it took me some digging through the internets to get a lead on that, i think it would be a perfectly valid point to make up-front19:26
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alteregocomradekingu: got a source on drivers not being updated? It's really up to the hardware vendors they'll support their SoCs as long as they can be bothered to do so.19:26
comradekingupowerVR drivers suck, it would for sure mean less customers.19:26
sharpneliThen it's fine if there are open drivers already.19:26
Stskeepsit's not powervr.19:26
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secThank god19:27
secThat shit's horrid19:27
sharpneliIf it's intel stuff they actually have substantially good open drivers19:27
sharpneliJust give us the Android L versions of them and it's all good ;D19:27
Stskeepsyeah.. but if you use one thing in android drivers you practically have to use all19:27
Stskeepscamera -> gralloc -> android egl drivers to render the camera images in efficient way..19:28
comradekingualterego: i cant think of a single company that runs closed android drivers where they are fully compatible out of the box, and keep working in the long run19:28
alteregoAlso, if you want to be able to have Android app compatibility, then it's a lot easier if Android drivers are used ..19:28
sharpneliI also can't think of any open drivers that are fully compatible and actually support enough features.  :(19:28
comradekinguintels drivers19:28
sharpnelicomradekingu: Still not GL4.4/ES3.119:29
comradekingusoon freescale19:29
sharpneliBut quite fine still19:29
alteregocomradekingu: I know you can think of one :)19:29
sharpnelicomradekingu: Anything without compute shaders is crap ;D19:29
comradekinguand you got GL4.4 from who? Nvidia nouveau?19:29
sharpneliNvidia, amd. And ES3.1 for all of the mobile platforms19:29
sharpneliThe only difference between 4.4 and ES3.1 is the lack of tesselation19:29
sharpneliAnd geometry shaders19:30
sharpneliBut those don't matter because of compute shader awesomeness <319:30
alteregoHow well is Wayland going to be supported under current Intel graphics drivers?19:30
secAww man, this is perfect for an ambiance http://i.imgur.com/wP3Te.jpg19:30
comradekinguright now you need open drivers, in a commercially viable sense, then the ability to purchase chips, at the right price19:30
Stskeepssec: nice!19:30
sharpneliTo be honest I'd be happy with just working drivers :D19:30
Stskeeps+119:30
Stskeepsi've done so much hardware hacking for non-android systems over the years19:31
comradekinguintel mobile is bleeding money trying to push chips, sharpneli is very correct in saying they are handing them out for free19:31
Stskeepsworking drivers is the thing you want.19:31
secIkr, someone on a pc resize this ambiance size please! http://i.imgur.com/wP3Te.jpg19:31
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sharpneliI personally consider drivers to be part of the hardware. So they can be closed for all I care. As long as they are kept up to date and actually work well.19:31
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comradekinguand a lot of people are happy with working drivers for a time being, _more_ people are happy with working open drivers, and its less disaster in the long run for all parties19:31
sharpnelicomradekingu: Consider the applications in jolla store. If they'd use open drivers then it would be ES2.0 maximum19:32
sharpneliAnd frankly that would suck.19:32
sharpneli"Yeah we have this awesome hardware but you are stuck with an ancient API for now"19:32
comradekinguis jolla making more money selling apps or handsets?19:32
sharpneliHandsets are being sold partly due to app ecosystem19:33
comradekinguBecause im thinking selling more handsets, even at cost, means more apps sold19:33
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comradekinguthe intel move is a sound one, you got everything there19:34
comradekingujust make a point out of it19:34
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Stskeepsone of the sort of grave mistakes did was that they hired a lot of "OMAP" experts..19:34
Stskeeps+nokia19:34
Stskeepswhich made moving to other chipsets damned difficult19:34
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Stskeepsjolla's small because indeed, it focuses on the OS and the experience19:35
comradekinguomap isnt bad though, i dont see why it wouldnt work. Maybe hiring _and_ moving was the mistake19:35
comradekinguStskeeps: so did palm19:36
comradekinguas did*19:36
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svuorela..has anyone tried taking the silica qml components off the phone and created enough stub code and wireframes images to make stuff workable ?19:36
Stskeepsand being able to leverage the very large ecosystem of good hardware, tested and war proven designs out there is really good19:36
comradekinguI distinctly remember the influx of good news about their tablet was when everyone started doing new and inventive stuff with it, not neccisarily webos stuff19:36
alteregosvuorela: sounds really tedious and for what purpose? :P19:36
alteregosvuorela: also, the QML is in the SDK19:37
svuorelaalterego: to be able to write apps faster19:37
alteregosvuorela: SDK too slow for you?19:37
svuorelayes.19:37
sharpneliStskeeps: Another argument for ES3.1 in the tablet: Less fragmentation of software in jolla store. If there is going to be jollaphone2 it will nigh certainly have ES3.1. That would mean software for it would not run on the tablet19:37
sharpneliGames that is19:37
alteregosvuorela: what spec is your dev machine?19:37
SfietKonstantinsvuorela: I tried to do this19:37
SfietKonstantinit's quite a mess19:37
SfietKonstantinwell, you need to implement quite some components in C++ side19:38
SfietKonstantinit's not eas19:38
SfietKonstantiny19:38
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SfietKonstantinespecially when you only know the interfaces for the C++ stuff, and have to guess19:38
svuorelaalterego: virtualbox image on a host with i7 / 16gb ram.19:38
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Stskeepssharpneli: i don't disagree on the es3.1, just unsure of what i can get.19:38
comradekingusharpneli: games on a tablet that has nothing but touch input out of the box? Isnt that what nividia is failing at atm?19:38
alteregosvuorela: you're running the SDK _in_ a VM?19:38
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svuorelaalterego: yes.19:38
sharpnelicomradekingu: Yup. But imho the biggest point of ES3.1 is the compute shaders. GPGPU on mobile <319:39
svuorelaalterego: all binary-only stuff goes into vm's.19:39
alteregosvuorela: that includes the build engine VM and the emulator VM nested _in_ your dev VM?19:39
svuorelaalterego: yes.19:39
alteregoYou could take out the emulator and build VMs and run them on your host rather than nested.19:39
alteregoThen configure SDK to talk to them.19:39
secStskeeps: http://i.imgur.com/P2aFbmy.jpg19:40
comradekingusharpneli: kde has been meaning to build a tablet for a while, same with many other foss projects, if they could use the jollatablet as a base then thats lots of bulk sales to the right kind of people.19:40
alteregosvuorela: what exactly about your development cycles do you feel is slow and a PITA?19:40
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Sfiet_Konstantinsec: super awesome19:40
sec:D19:40
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Sfiet_Konstantincomradekingu: this means that you need open bootloader19:40
Sfiet_Konstantinfriendly SOC19:40
Sfiet_Konstantin(OSS drivers for the GPU part, and maybe CPU part)19:41
attahsec: stealing that right now!19:41
svuorelaalterego: everything. I normally do frequent build/run cycles when developing stuff19:41
Sfiet_KonstantinZ37xx might work well19:41
Sfiet_Konstantinbut not sure19:41
sharpneliYeah. GPU driver in mobile is one of the smallest problems. Even if on desktop it's the biggest and generally only problem.19:41
StskeepsLLVMpipe on a mobile device is so sexy.19:41
Stskeeps:P19:41
Sfiet_KonstantinStskeeps: please, no19:41
secYeah if someone can do a brush job and make it better, be my guest please http://i.imgur.com/P2aFbmy.jpg19:41
Sfiet_KonstantinStskeeps: I have one of these i7 ivy bridge + Intel HD 400019:42
Sfiet_Konstantinusing Mesa and open intel drivers, I can run civ 5 under linux19:42
comradekinguSfiet_Konstantin: https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop seems to be able to atleast promise a lot of that, not fully there though19:42
Sfiet_Konstantinand some other games19:42
Sfiet_Konstantinso :)19:42
svuorelaSfiet_Konstantin: how far did you get in implementing stuff ?19:42
StskeepsSfiet_Konstantin: i don't deny that mesa+kms will just work19:42
Sfiet_Konstantinsvuorela: not far19:43
Sfiet_Konstantincomradekingu: my thinkpad runs 0% proprietary drivers19:43
Stskeepsbut i have to use that in a higher circumstance, together with camera drivers + buffers, video decoders/encoders, potentially hwcomposer like setups..19:43
Sfiet_Konstantincan't deny I like steam skype etc.19:43
alteregosvuorela: if it's just QML stuff, then SSH into device and edit on your device ;)19:43
Sfiet_Konstantincomradekingu: my workstation either19:43
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comradekinguSfiet_Konstantin: and i would continue buying them if lenovo didnt ruin it19:44
Stskeeps.. and for various reasons i don't want to hire libva, mesa, kms, v4l2 experts..19:44
svuorelaalterego: I don't get qtcreator autocompletion and such like that - and it is another ugly hack.19:44
Stskeepsalso because they're damned expensive.19:44
Stskeeps:P19:44
Sfiet_KonstantinStskeeps: laptop camera works rather well, but for a tablet, I guess everything is different19:44
sharpneliTbh I'd really prefer companies would only publish open drivers. I'd immediately fix the horrible register allocator that AMD has on their closed drivers :E19:44
alteregosvuorela: sshfs ;)19:44
alteregosvuorela: sounds like your setup is the hack, VMs in VMs is bound to be slow.19:44
Sfiet_Konstantinvideo encoders / decoders won't be that easy though19:44
svuorelathe good hack would be to get Stskeeps to opensource enough of the c++ components to have something workable on a plain machine :)19:44
alteregosvuorela: what makes you think Stskeeps has anything to do with that?!19:45
Sfiet_Konstantinsvuorela: +119:45
svuorelaalterego: his title ?19:45
Stskeepschief cook?19:45
Stskeeps:P19:45
Sfiet_Konstantinchief cook is a good title19:45
Sfiet_Konstantincook on the Jolla ship19:45
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Sfiet_Konstantintake some Android drivers, mix them with glibc19:45
secSoup all day erry day then19:45
alteregoWhat makes you think developers are an issue? :P19:45
Sfiet_Konstantinand you got a libhybris pie19:46
svuorelayeah. he will poison the food if the others doesn't do as he says :)19:46
Sfiet_Konstantin:D19:46
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svuorelaanother thing, can I somehow syncronize the jolla account login information between two devices ?19:46
alteregosvuorela: anyway, sshfs and edit in QtCreator, then you can still use the remote run facility and you wont even need to know ..19:47
comradekinguThere are zero viable current linux|gnu phones in the world, surely they would come together to contribute19:47
Stskeepscomradekingu: if so, we'd have had a top notch intel debian linux phone today.19:47
Stskeepsworld just doesn't work that way.19:47
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alteregoNo one is interested in a Debian phone.19:48
comradekinguStskeeps: its no much top notch as just there, and if it can be done at that level, then it can be done bigger19:48
comradekingualterego: you are wrong19:48
Stskeepsand shipping a mobile device is hard, even if you are doing it the semi-right way.19:49
comradekingubtw, TOHKBD has made me consider a phone, i backed them, maybe more people would find their way to rationalize a purchase with a link to TOHKBD on the jolla page?19:49
alteregocomradekingu: sorry, but I don't think I am. Everyone that I've seen that wants to know if Debian will run on the Jolla Phone or Jolla Tablet have only really been interested running X11 apps.19:49
alteregoAnd installing .debs19:50
comradekinguStskeeps: its already there, just needs as many buyers as it can get. I know of a truckload of people who would be sold on semi-right _with_keyboard19:50
alteregoWho in their right mind would want to run desktop apps on a Phone ..19:50
comradekingualterego: real people19:50
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alteregoYou're a niche, a small percentage of a tiny percentage of people that actually buy a phone who care about FOSS and GNU/Linux.19:51
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sharpneliNot on a capasitive screen you won't19:51
sharpneliThe precision of any button press is so horrible19:51
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comradekingualterego: and getting those people onboard is bad why?19:51
sharpneliWith resistive screen and stylus it's barely possible19:51
secoi, you bashing my N900?19:52
sharpnelicomradekingu: Because it costs more money than the additional device sales19:52
comradekingusharpneli: how?19:52
sharpnelisec: Praising it. And bashing the modern touchscreens :D19:52
alteregocomradekingu: for instance, people that like the idea of having a full GNU/Linux stack on their devices come to us. You're a minute subset of that already small market.19:52
secOh ok then, carry on19:52
sharpnelicomradekingu: Implementing open bootloader etc19:52
Stskeepscomradekingu: a consultant pay in some fields can easily reach 100+ eur per hour..19:52
comradekingusharpneli: thats just a more right way of doing something clever19:53
comradekingusaying there is the potential for alternative OS-es when there is, is gratis19:53
sharpneliHow does that relate to the cost argument?19:53
alteregoAnd what you're asking is completely unreasonable. Yes, we'd all /like/ everything to be open and available. But the industry mainly doesn't, and you're asking for a small company, the small Jolla boat to fight these mega-corps that pull all the strings. Not gonna happen :)19:53
Stskeepsadd in specialists to work on getting things working with open drivers and it significantly outweights the benefit of sales...19:53
attahStskeeps: yeah.. but most of it goes to our pimps ;)19:53
secI love women19:53
comradekingualterego: im saying be smart19:54
Stskeepsattah: and i even was humble on the pricing19:54
alteregoWhat you're suggesting isn't smart.19:54
comradekinguit says "we are unlike" that is smart as a small player19:54
Stskeepsnot to mention the need to get good guys fired when we switch chipsets..19:54
Stskeepsto be competitive19:54
sharpneli"Hey let's spend $100k to implement open bootloader so we can sell few more devices"19:54
attahStskeeps: Yes, you were..19:54
svuorelaStskeeps: only 100+ eur pr hour? where do you find them that cheap?19:55
comradekingujust link to the TOHKBD campain on the main page, then put "can be made to run alternative OS-es by the user" on the tablet page19:55
alteregocomradekingu: you're concentrating on this tiny issue, an issue that barely anyone gives a crap about :)19:55
Stskeepssvuorela: get their signatures while drunk.19:55
secHeh they don't get drunk easily19:55
sharpneliBeer. The bane of many a programmer.19:55
comradekingualterego: you could exchange the latter part of your argument with anything, maybe that will help you see why you are misguided19:55
tigeliStskeeps: what.. are you getting paid?19:55
Stskeepstigeli: oops.19:55
alteregocomradekingu: hardly.19:56
sec------E ------E ------E ------E ------E get them. Stskeeps is getting paid.19:56
alteregocomradekingu: why don't you indiegogo or kickstart your own debian phone? :)19:56
comradekinguit is not an exclusivist argument to make, hardly anyone is still more than 0 btw19:56
sharpnelicomradekingu: How many additional sales would you expect from having fully open stack?19:56
comradekingualterego: because i dont have ties to a cellphone giant that i can resurrect the best parts of19:57
alteregocomradekingu: best parts?19:57
Stskeepswe resurrected source code (public), that's it..a19:57
comradekingusharpneli: thats irrelevant, intel with inhouse drivers and foss wifi is where its at atm19:57
Stskeepsand no, best parts?19:57
Stskeeps:P19:57
comradekinguthats feasible and viable19:57
alteregocomradekingu: there are hardly any closed Nokia parts in the Sailfish stack.19:57
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alteregoI'm not even sure they amount to anything at all anymore.19:57
sharpneliSome dbus names!19:58
alteregocomradekingu: there were some bits when running on N950 in the early, early, early days ;)19:58
alteregoBut those are the same bits that MeeGo CE was using.19:58
comradekinguso here is the kicker, jollaphone has no keyboard, instant dismissal from a lot of people19:58
alteregocomradekingu: and their other choices are? :)19:59
comradekinguNow someone is doing the work, taking the risk and all that, help them out19:59
alteregoHow many phones on the market right now have a keyboard.19:59
comradekinguits a win-win19:59
sharpnelialterego: None. Which is a huge wonder19:59
sharpneliConsidering how many people would love it19:59
sharpneliI don't think there was ever any market research done19:59
comradekingujust the blackberry passport19:59
sharpneliEveryone just went "iPhone doesn't have qwerty! So we cannot have one either"19:59
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comradekinguno, google did, in their android requirement for 1.020:00
Aciidconsidering what jolla could have been TM I'd like to see Jolla2 with keyboard, blackperry enterprise, removable SD, and mini HDMI port like n9720:00
alteregosharpneli: I'm not saying it would be bad. But in a world where everyone seems to care how thin their device is, for every 1 person that buys the phone for a keyboard you'll lose 1000s because it looks ugly or bulky compared to your friends'.20:00
sharpnelialterego: Sure. For that reason Jolla should've had keyboard ToH from the go20:00
comradekinguthe need for keyboard on phones didnt go away just because every casual user in the world has an iphone or similar20:01
alteregosharpneli: yes, from the go, because Jolla had the resources and time to dedicate to that project ... -_-20:01
narchieAciid: I want removable battery toholed, two physical keyboards, removable SD with ethernet port, 4g,5g,3g LTE support,20:01
narchiealso resistive screen and stylus (i use wacom every 3rd year)20:01
alteregosharpneli: that was sarcasm by the way.20:01
sharpnelialterego: Actually I'm quite sure the additional sales would have paid itself back20:01
comradekingualterego: thats if you are samsung, jolla isnt20:01
alteregosharpneli: You don't know that, and it basically is completely unrealistic IMO :)20:01
narchiealso HDMI and usb2 and usb3 ports so it works on all places20:01
Aciidnarchie: I heard WIMAX is a must in the australian backlands, could we fit a small IC transreceiver WIMAX-TOH20:01
secI want an e-ink other half thanks20:02
narchiealso usb slot so I can fit in mouse and keyboard on the go20:02
sharpneliJust an anecdote. I know more people who have not bought jolla for the express reason of it not having a keyboard than people who have bought Jolla20:02
comradekingujolla has now a removable keyboard, what is there not to like?20:02
narchieno hdmi port20:02
narchieno ethernet port20:02
comradekinguAnd for every phone jolla sells, there is 1000 users buying bigger and bulkier batteries for their samsung galaxy phones20:02
narchieno multi SD resistive stylus keyboard20:02
Aciidnarchie: but with raspberrypi-TOH that all could be today20:02
Morpog_PCall those diehard n900 users in here with their keyboard obsession :D20:02
* sec slaps Morpog_PC 20:02
* comradekingu i second that notion, slap warranted20:03
sharpneliAlso wtf @ tohkbd20:03
alteregoA keyboard ToH is great, it gives people the choice, which is amazing, and the fact the Jolla has this facility, the ToH, makes it unlike.20:03
sharpneliWho had that smart idea of putting arrow keys to the left?20:03
Aciidnarchie: fancy multi-card reader? I had one joinin mate with 2.5" usb, think we could TOH that?20:03
Stskeepssharpneli: d-pad?20:03
secThe guy who made the damn thing20:03
comradekingusharpneli: to similate d-pad i imagine20:03
sharpneliYeah. But in the process it makes it annoyingly different20:03
sharpneliBut let's see how it plays out20:04
narchiealso thunderbolt-usb5-VGA-TOH for jolla so I can plug it in my television20:04
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alteregoIt does not however mean that selling one themselves would really change the situation at all, not to mention there will then be 100s more warranty claims potentially, and 10,000s more man hours developing it, making it look nice, integrating it properly into an OS that doesn't even have full landscape support yet.20:04
comradekinguso everyhing is nice, but im asking myself, why doesnt jolla official make more effort in promoting a 3rd party OTH product that solves so many use-cases20:04
secBut they did20:04
secThey offered a 100 Euro discount coupon20:05
Aciidcomradekingu: ever since breadboard-TOH the whole TOH scene has been a joke20:05
alteregoJolla mention the keyboard ToH all the time!20:05
secYou mean you hate blinky lights ._.20:05
Yanielsec: I think he is after something like advertising it on their homepage20:05
comradekinguim on http://jolla.com/ and thus far no mention20:05
alteregoBecause we love it, it's a great acheivement that a community can be empowered enough to do something like this themselves, and that to me is worth a lot more than the profits from an official ToH20:05
alteregoIt shows what the community and what Jolla is /really/ about.20:05
Aciidsec: I bought hundreds of euros worth of arduinos and all I got was this blinking LED20:06
Yanielthe page could use a "community highlights" section actually20:06
secBecause then every TOH creator would be after mentions on their front page -.-20:06
secIt's not that hard to figure out that you can not do everything that is expected of you20:06
comradekingucases to suit my mood, yes, tohkbd, no20:06
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Morpog_PCno one forces you to get it20:07
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Aciidwheres TOHFLASK, like when I want to conviniently drink it up20:07
comradekinguthe biggest selling modern phone that isnt an iphone or android phone was the n900, tohkbd is the biggest news in phones since then20:07
Morpog_PCn900 was in sales numbers a joke I think20:08
Morpog_PCcompared to it's symbian counterparts20:08
sharpneliNot where I was. But I'm probably an exception :D20:08
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sharpneliTechnical people in Helsinki area. N900's were extremely common20:09
Morpog_PCI would have gotten a N900 back then if it wasn't that fat and used a capacitiv display20:09
sharpneliI still like resistive one more20:09
sharpneliOne can use stylus20:09
Morpog_PCN9 was just perfectly made for me :)20:09
comradekinguMorpog_PC: no it wasnt, it was nokias most-selling phone long into the winphone age of nokias, i imagine it still is nokias mostselling phone other than 3210 and 331020:10
Morpog_PCno way20:10
Aciidare there any resisitive touchscreens that dont die after a year of usage20:10
AciidI had an openmoko once.20:10
narchielist of people who use stylus:20:10
comradekingui didnt make that up, besides, selling symbian v3 phones alongside n900, no matter how many, isnt sustainable20:10
Morpog_PCv3?20:11
comradekingus60v320:11
Morpog_PCdid you miss the whole v5 time?20:11
Morpog_PCand anna and belle?20:11
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Morpog_PCthose were selling devices20:11
Morpog_PC5800 express or n820:11
comradekinguanna and belle could have been sustainable, the others were not20:12
alteregocomradekingu: where are you getting this information, that's absolute rubbish! :D20:12
alteregoThe N900 sales were nothing compared to the N8 which was being sold at the same time.20:12
alteregoThe N900 wasn't even properly advertised as a phone ..20:13
Morpog_PC5800 express music had 15 million sold20:13
alteregocomradekingu: maybe in the circles you frequent in, (I'm guessing #debian) it was popular because it was the only GNU/Linux semi-debian oriented device.20:13
comradekingudo you honestly think selling n8's would work in the long run? Have you used one?20:13
alteregoBut saying it was their best seeling phone is absolute BS :)20:14
alteregoI really liked the N920:14
Morpog_PCN8sure, I had used one for about 3 years20:14
comradekingui didnt say that20:14
alteregoErm, N8 ..20:14
alteregoYeah, I used an N8 whilst using the N900 (basically because of the camera) :)20:14
Morpog_PCN8's camera is still better than most mobile phones cameras nowadays20:14
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Morpog_PCit had fm transmitter20:15
Morpog_PCusb host20:15
Morpog_PCradio20:15
alteregoMorpog_PC: +120:15
alteregoN8 was probably one of the best Nokia phones of all time IMO20:15
Morpog_PConly it's software was shit in the beginning :D20:15
comradekinguand which of these capabilites can jolla reproduce in the year 2014 or 2015?20:15
alteregoAlong with the N9, N900 and N9520:15
Morpog_PCjolla is not Nokia20:15
alteregoThe N95 8G being their most successful handset of all time.20:15
attahi simply don't get why people are so in love with fm transmitters :S20:16
comradekinguIs it the n900 success, or the speciality novelty things that nokia did to polish their non sustainable platforms?20:16
alteregoThe N900 wasn't a success ..20:16
comradekinguim saying novelty, because cameras isnt a profitable business to be in20:16
Morpog_PCattah, have a car radio without bluetooth and aux in :)20:16
alteregoWell, it was a success in that it did what it was planned to do.20:16
alteregoThe N9 and N950 being the next step.20:16
secThen Elop happened20:16
alteregoWhich would have worked .. Had MeeGo and Windows Phone not happened :)20:16
comradekinguthe n900 was the biggest success since the n95, and it sold for much longer than anything else they had ever since20:17
alteregocomradekingu: again, not true20:17
attahMorpog_PC: sure.. but they re kind of like fax machines now.. you know they exist.. but you never really see one20:17
alteregocomradekingu: where are you getting this information?20:17
Morpog_PCin which alternative reality do you live in comradekingu ?20:17
tigelialterego: I still think 3210 was the best ;)20:17
comradekinguagreed20:17
alteregotigeli: a lot of people did :)20:17
Teemunot all N are even the same series20:17
Morpog_PC321 was great :D20:18
Morpog_PC321020:18
Teemu3210 suffered from the Navi Key(TM) which was sucky20:18
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comradekingualterego: sales figures, mixed with some insight, do note if im wrong about anything20:18
Teemuone button that does all that is supposedly easy and everybodys grandmother had serious trouble with it20:18
TeemuN95 also is not related to N900 in any way20:18
alteregocomradekingu: you are wrong about N900 being the most successful handset after N95 8G20:18
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HarhaanJohtajahttp://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/28/us-nokia-n-idUSTRE64R1DI2010052820:18
tuomasjj1asanenN900 probably sold less than 1m20:19
TeemuN9 and N950 are direct descendants of N900 but N900 itself sold quite little20:19
alteregocomradekingu: what sales figures? :)20:19
comradekinguim not saying it is, but that the time they were both sustainable ideas20:19
alteregoTeemu: exactly. I don't know where this guy is getting his information :)20:19
comradekingumusic-centric phones and camera phones isnt going to be anything but a sub-segment in the long run20:19
alteregocomradekingu: you were just saying the N900 was the most successful device after the N95, that just isn't true :D20:19
comradekinguok, then what20:20
alteregocomradekingu: music centric phones don't exist now Nokia is gone.20:20
comradekinguexactly20:20
alteregocomradekingu: No one sells phones all about Music, even Sony scrapped their Walkman line of phones ;)20:20
comradekinguand it was barely able to keep nokia afloat while it did20:20
comradekingusony ericsson tried it too, gone the same way20:20
alteregocomradekingu: So your point, is basically, pointless.20:20
comradekinguno it isnt20:21
comradekingun900 is a viable market, keeping nokia in the red with novelty isnt20:21
alteregoYes it is, you said that Music centric and Camera centric phones are not going to be anything more than a sub-segment in the long run20:21
alteregoWell, music phones just don't exist anymore.20:21
comradekinguyes20:21
alteregoCamera-centric phones don't really exist anymore either.20:21
alteregoSo what's your point?20:21
* Morpog_PC is not sure if he is being trolled atm20:21
secWelcome to the internet20:22
tuomasjj1asanenHmm.. this discussion reminds be about one pic..20:22
alteregoPhones can play music, phones can take pictures. They all do it except for really cheap barely even feature phone, phones :)20:22
tuomasjj1asanen"Someone is wrong on the internet!"20:22
comradekinguand they shouldnt have existed, it was only a year 2000 novelty, and then something nokia cooked up to try and loose less money20:22
alteregotuomasjj1asanen: lol :D20:22
alteregocomradekingu: tell that to the N95, a music and camera centric phone that is one of the most successfull handsets of all time!20:23
comradekingualterego: my point is that if you want to learn anything about how to operate the good parts of nokia, in a market that is _dominated_ by iphones and android, the n900 is the one to copy20:23
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alteregocomradekingu: bullshit :)20:23
alterego(excuse my french)20:23
comradekingualterego: at that time it was still viable, its both though, so it doesnt count for one or the other20:23
Yanielthe good parts of nokia were more the quality I'd say20:24
alterego*sigh*20:24
alteregoYaniel: yeah, and the innovation.20:24
comradekinguYaniel: we are assuming thats still as good20:24
alteregoWhat to learn from Nokia, be agile, but don't work on a 100 different possible platforms.20:24
comradekingualterego: n900 was innovative, n8 and 5800 were a twitching giant dying a slow death20:25
alteregocomradekingu: not true.20:25
alteregocomradekingu: you don't know that.20:25
Yaniel5800 was kind of a "teen phone" IMHO20:25
alteregocomradekingu: you're guessing, making assumptions based on your own bias opinions.20:25
alteregocomradekingu: You're not being objective at all, anyway, late for me, so g'night! :)20:26
Yanielit suited a certain target group perfectly well20:26
comradekinguare people flocking to buy the lumix/leica smartphone, no, but some are, in the numbers jolla is working, that would be viable, but they dont have the people to do it20:26
Iltsu5800 was released lot before N900 or N820:26
comradekinguit still competed and lost vs the iphone, no?20:27
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Yanielyeah and xp lost to win720:27
comradekinguthe idea of slate does all things idea seems pretty prevalent, whoever invented it20:27
comradekinguYaniel: no it didnt20:27
comradekinguwin7 was a disaster because of the way winxp was a success20:28
comradekinguyes it sold, but it lost foothold moreso than xp solidified it in its day20:28
comradekingukeep doing that, and win8++++ to death20:28
Yanielthe point being, they are from different eras20:29
comradekinguwell you could still pull that kind of stuff back then20:29
comradekinguthe future for phones is undoubtably what jolla is doing, and i think better, but it is also not in touchscreen only20:30
comradekinguthat is too much of a distraction from getting things done20:30
Yanielwhat jolla needs most is some rock solid hw20:30
Yanieland stable sw20:30
comradekingulike amiga?20:31
comradekinguRemember their marketing department, i still want to forget20:31
comradekinguand palm is a good example of where i think jolla currently fails a bit20:33
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comradekinguIm not asking for risk, im just asking for a little bit of tuning to allow for more customers20:33
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secThat tuning is expensive20:33
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comradekinguyou misunderstand me20:33
comradekingui dont want my end goal to be carried out on jollas behalf, that isnt possible, but its still a laudable goal20:34
YanielI'd say focus on getting to a point where you can say "tired of wp/android/iphone" crashing? try crashing this20:34
comradekinguI just want whoever is even considering sending a text-message to know that there is a modern way to do it where you can type on a keyboard20:34
Yanielerr, move the latter " to the end of the line20:35
comradekinguthat sells phones20:35
secThat's a very pointless goal. People restart their phones, not replace them.20:35
Yanieland at that point think of what would be cool and see if it sells20:35
YanielI hear a lot of people cursing about how they have to restart their phone *again*20:36
comradekinguis that something they often change their phones over?20:36
Yanielbut I guess they might be getting used to that20:36
Yanielno, but it has some say when they do next time20:36
comradekinguand/or something they are technically apt to consider gauging at purchase20:36
comradekinguanyone can call their phones stable20:36
secMost people haven't heard of Jolla20:37
secThey'd just buy another Android20:37
comradekinguoh, its old nokia, i see20:37
comradekinguanother one of those flat phones, no, not interested20:37
Yanielrelated to stable is also the "just works" aspect20:37
comradekinguoh a keyboard, thats nice, typing on these screens never was for me20:37
secAs Stskeeps said. build an excellent user experience. nothing sells more20:38
grzywacz+120:38
comradekingu"jolla, the keyboard alternative phone." Is a lot easier sell than "Jolla, that sailfish sure is stable"20:38
Yanielwell, that is essentially "just works"20:38
secThe iPhone just works too20:39
Yanielexactly20:39
Yanielthats why it sells20:39
comradekinguif you consider getting tracked as working concept of what i accept to be a phone20:39
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secWell no, I'd wager it sells because of its marketting and brand image20:40
comradekingui dont want a spying device that is targeted at me, which isnt a nerd demographic in this day and aye20:40
comradekinguage20:40
secNeo900 it is for you20:40
comradekinguyes. where can i buy one?20:40
secOn the internet eventually!20:41
comradekinguId like to send that message, "dear internet, it is so fun being on the preorder, it is almost as if i dont have to imagine writing messages"20:41
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comradekinguand then quick-dial my macro expletives to really drive the point home20:42
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comradekinguBut lets get the question answered, why isnt jolla promoting tohkbd on their landing site?20:43
secBecuase then you'd have other people crying about promotion20:44
comradekingugood!20:44
comradekinguare there any equally fantastic ideas, come right this way20:44
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comradekinguthe tablet has no problems selling, but i think a lot of people would come down from sitting on the fence over the freedom issue, as-good-as-possible is very much more-than possibly-wrong amounts of being worthy of funding20:47
alterego-_-20:48
alteregoI guess we should all be sorry that as good as possible isn't good enough, for you :P20:48
comradekinguso even if its just the most viable solution that can be sourced in the current market, it is still the best effort20:48
comradekingualterego: it is, but i want to make sure jolla and me are in a clear understanding about that fact20:48
comradekingu"world's first crowdsourced tablet" doesnt really strike me as the best point to make20:50
alteregoI don't think Jolla's understanding is under argument here, it's your understanding of their communications and activities that you seem to have issues with.20:50
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comradekingu"Be a part of"  ok, sounds good, im rallying behind this "making the world’s first people powered tablet"  what?20:51
comradekinguand then it assumes i know what sailfish is20:51
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alteregoDid it assume wrongly?20:51
comradekinguNo, but as has been the topic of conversation, i am not most people20:51
alteregoYou're right, you're not, and the people that that campaign is targetted at all know what Sailfish is.20:52
alteregoWe want people that support Sailfish to get the best possible deal on the tablet, get the most amount of say on an OS they love, enjoy and are passionate about, don't care so much about anyone elses ideas generally, because if you don't know what Sailfish is, then your input is probably not going to be that helpful.20:53
comradekinguWhich is why somethign along the lines of "no spying on the user, not a toy operating system, really sleek, burh!"  has more power20:53
comradekingualterego: why would you target a campaign at people who know what sailfish is, that is just narrow20:54
alteregoHah20:54
comradekingumake people understand what sailfish is by selling a horde of tablets instead20:54
alteregoI think you're misunderstanding the point of the campaign slightly, it's for people who are interested in getting the next Jolla device before general sales that want to help shape the hardware and software.20:54
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alteregoYour average customer will hopefully find out about the device and the platform in the shops, the stuff you mention is mentioned on the jolla.com website you know ;)20:55
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comradekinguok, next step in my thinking process is i think the picture looks sleek, so im back in, undaunted by previous choice of words20:55
comradekinguand then "we believe in privacy" ok, like apple, or?  So much infact that you wrote the word privacy on that image, subtle20:56
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comradekinguand then, again!  "At Jolla, we believe in your privacy"20:56
* sec needs to get his N900 scratchbox up again20:56
* lpotter keeps reading "privacy" as "piracy"20:57
alteregolpotter: stop downloading those torrents ;)20:57
comradekinguthe introduction to the tablet was nice. The people powered section should be moved to the top20:58
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secHow many tablet devices are they shipping now?20:58
sec5000?20:58
alteregosec: I don't know, but the campaign end date isn't that close. :)20:59
covoxwhoa20:59
comradekinguhopefully 10k, thats when most all moq cutoffs start being pleasant20:59
covoxso now I know what the 000 emergency number screen looks like20:59
alteregoHeh21:00
secYes, a lot of people make up their minds right when the campaign is about to end21:00
Stskeepscovox: accidential dialing, or?21:00
Nicd-the 112 phone UI is NICE21:00
Nicd-so red and alarming21:00
Nicd-and tells you not to hang up21:00
covoxStskeeps: my housemate was incredibly sick21:00
Nicd-I thought that was a nice touch21:00
covoxkids, don't get autoimmune hepatitis21:01
Stskeepscovox: okay, i hope that the call went through and he got some help21:01
Stskeepscovox: it's the worst nightmare of mine that for some reason somebody can't get through to emergency with his phone.21:01
Nicd-my 112 call worked without issue21:01
covoxStskeeps: all good, he's been evac'd safely21:01
Stskeepsgood21:01
covoxI was quite impressed that it picked up the local emergency number and told you to stay on the line21:02
secI've never used 112 calls21:02
alteregocovox: that's great to hear, hope he has a fast recovery.21:02
Tegume neither21:02
Nicd-covox: I think it calls 112 which redirects to any local number21:02
covoxalterego: me too man21:02
Nicd-at least the latter part should be true in the EU21:02
alteregoThe emergency number handling is probably the only part of the dialer I didn't write ;)21:03
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alteregoThere is ofono API that provides emergency numbers though.21:03
stephg112 was GSM globally I thought21:03
alteregoWhich comes through SIM and network.21:03
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covoxmight be that, it didn't obviously redirect to 11221:03
alteregostephg: yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right afaik, but the SIM emergency numbers have other onces.21:03
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alteregoFor instance, if I dial 999, the phone should act the same.21:04
covoxprobably just something on the SIM21:04
alteregoAnd that is exposed through ofono.21:04
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alteregocovox: it's through the SIM API iirc, but comes from network.21:04
secHow many people here are actual Jolla staff?21:05
secEstimated number. I've heard all of you are IRC nuts apparently so I assume quite a few21:05
alteregoIt's how roaming, etc. Works, it also redirects other emergency numbers, so if I'm in some other country and I dial 999, I believe it routes me to the local emergency services, even though I wouldn't be in the UK and their emergency number isn't 999. There's some service provider network magic going on in the background there.21:05
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stephgalterego: that's quite cool21:07
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stephgdidn't realise the 'mapping' would work in reverse21:07
alteregoYeah, your phone dials home and your service provider at home routes back to where you actually are. :)21:07
secDo I get charged ISD or?21:08
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alteregoDon't get charged anything for emergency calls ;)21:08
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secYes locally, I don't know how that would work internationally21:09
alteregoYou might have to have insurance in the US, but generally it's free :P21:09
secLol21:10
comradekinguSince i spent time whining about the marketing i feel compelled to rewrite the indiegogo page, anywhere i could propose my changes?21:10
alteregot.j.c ?21:10
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comradekingutjc?21:11
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secCare21:11
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comradekinguthats tlc21:12
stephgtogether.jolla.com, or care at jolla.com21:12
stephg^^ the latter's an email address21:12
stephgthe former a website21:12
alteregoYou could also mention it at the next community IRC meeting21:12
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Stskeepscare is the worst possible place to send that to..21:13
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alteregoStskeeps: my thoughts exactly ..21:13
comradekingui just want whoever is responsible for the wording of that page21:13
stephgnext meeting is on Tues, the agenda is on TJC, sec21:13
comradekinguwant to work along the lines of that, not order-by-chaos method21:13
secYes, I saw it. I am interesting in the open source points myself21:14
chem|stcomradekingu: for sure "crowd sourced" is pretty wrong... if the device is written in stone already21:14
stephghttps://together.jolla.com/question/54157/sailfishos-open-source-collaboration-meeting-planning/21:14
alteregocomradekingu: not really one person, there's things like legal review, content editors, bla, blah usually ;)21:15
comradekinguim steering clear of all that21:15
secHaha21:15
comradekingui just want write permission honestly ;)21:16
comradekinguon a serious note, i am aware of that, and i intend to keep it within reason21:16
comradekingui dont see how bringing it up in a meeting does most of the people who attend it any good21:17
alteregocomradekingu: it doesn't you just mention it in the any other business part and whoever is listening will make sure your thoughts are passed on to where they need to go ;)21:17
comradekinguok21:18
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comradekingutwo days, tall order21:18
alteregoAlso, mentioning it on t.j.c isn't a completely horrendous idea, it's just not the greatest platform for that kind of feedback to be honest.21:19
alteregocomradekingu: or mentioning it here again during "business hours" it's 23:20 in Finland right now and Sunday night ;)21:20
comradekinguill see how much faith my work inspires in myself21:20
comradekinguIm from norway, i think the finns are +1 or +221:21
alteregoIs norway +1 GMT?21:22
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Nicd-finland is +221:22
alteregoFinland is +2 GMT ;)21:22
alteregoOtherwise known as "My IRC time", heh.21:22
comradekingui think so21:23
comradekingu<3 the finns21:23
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fennekkiwhat21:58
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SylvieLorxuDoes anyone have a clue how the Jolla Phone ( http://shop.jolla.com/eu_en/cat-jolla/jolla-1.html/ ) compares to something like the Neo900 ( http://neo900.org/ )? According to the tablet site, Sailfish OS is "Independent and open source" but then again, "so is" Android. Is there any info about how "Open Source" it truly is?22:12
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tbrSylvieLorxu: you can buy it and hold it in your hands. as opposed to nothing concrete.22:16
SylvieLorxutbr: That says absolutely nothing22:17
tbrSylvieLorxu: yes, there is plenty of info, if you look around. most of it is open, based on Mer and Nemomobile. Closed bits are mostly hardware libraries licensed from OEM/ODM22:18
tbrand some UI bits and system apps22:18
SylvieLorxu...22:18
SylvieLorxu"Some UI bits and system apps"22:18
SylvieLorxuWow, that's worse than Android :/22:18
tbrorly?22:18
SylvieLorxuYes, Android's UI is completely FOSS22:18
SylvieLorxuIt has some system apps but you can run it without those22:19
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tbryou can run without the ui bits, then it becomes nemomobile22:19
SylvieLorxuBut okay, good to know Sailfish OS is not truly Open Source then, and it's just a marketing thing :/22:19
tbrnobody claims (modulo marketing failures) that it's completely open22:19
SylvieLorxuhttp://jolla.com/tablet - "Jolla Tablet’s Sailfish operating system will be unlike anything you’ve tried before. Once you try it, you’ll never want to go back. Independent and open source, change whatever you like, whenever you like."22:20
SylvieLorxu"Independant and open source"22:20
SylvieLorxu"change whatever you like"22:20
tbryes, you can22:20
SylvieLorxuNo, it literally states it's completely FOSS22:20
SylvieLorxuNo, you can't, because the UI parts are proprietary, and so are some system apps22:21
SylvieLorxuThis is really scammy22:21
tbrStskeeps: mind presenting some marketing heads on a silver plate for the community meeting please?22:21
tbrStskeeps: whipped cream and cherry are optional22:21
Teguyea :/ if sailfish 2.0 doesn't actually do it differently22:21
Tegucompared to 1.022:22
tbrSylvieLorxu: outside the domain of the jolla marketing morons, things are being discussed pretty clearly22:22
SylvieLorxutbr: That doesn't change the fact that the marketing department is still spreading lies22:22
tbrSylvieLorxu: and they already got a bludgeoning out of it22:23
tbrSylvieLorxu: aparently someone still missed one22:23
SylvieLorxuBut at least I really clearly know now that Jolla and Neo900 aren't comparable at all22:23
SylvieLorxuhttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/jolla-tablet-world-s-first-crowdsourced-tablet says "powered by open source" which is still purposely misleading but not a plain out lie22:23
SylvieLorxuUnlike http://jolla.com/tablet, yeah22:24
tbrmeh22:24
tbryou're taking it from a fundamentalist point of view, get real22:24
SylvieLorxuIt's like buying a DRM-free DVD which still has DRM on some of the scenes22:24
SylvieLorxuIt has nothing to do with "fundamentalist" or "getting real"22:24
SylvieLorxuLies are lies22:24
tbrok, you clearly have no intention to have a reasonable discussion, have a nice day.22:25
SylvieLorxulol22:25
SylvieLorxuThat's an easy way to cop out, but fine by me22:25
SylvieLorxuI have better things to do than waste my time with a company that clearly tries to scam people22:26
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tbr*slowclap*22:28
tbrnevertheless he has a point about jolla marketing22:28
tbrmorons22:28
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stephghaters gonna hate22:30
Tegu"HarhaanJohtaja has quit"22:30
fennekkihow can you even #jollamobile without ignoring parts and joins22:31
Tegucoincidence :D22:31
javispedrohey, it's scammy22:32
Teguhmm, I dunno22:32
javispedrobut so is the part about Android having an "open UI"22:32
javispedrothe only open Android I know of is Replicant22:32
TeguI keep then on everywhere22:32
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fennekkifundamentally the issue with claiming sailfish on anything is open source is that the drivers are blobs and the UI isn't open22:33
fennekkiisn't the rest pretty much mer22:33
Tegumaybe I should switch to weechat 1.0 (it has toggleable filters. hide or show with a shortcut)22:33
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tbrit's a bit more complicated, but he lost it already at hardware adaptation, so I didn't bother22:34
fennekkiMore complicated than that?22:34
tbrthere is a nice overview picture by carsten...22:34
tbrsomehwere in the logs22:34
stephgtbr HA a necessary evil these days? no?22:34
stephgthe UI, well, it's also not a perfect world (but in another way)22:35
fennekkiI feel like Jolla is "powered by open source" in much the same way GNU/Linux is powered by GNU, if you get what I mean22:35
sharpneliWell it's as open as Android is22:35
tadzikheheheh22:35
sharpneliAnd people call Android an Open Source project ;)22:35
fennekkisharpneli: the AOSP *is* an Open Source project22:35
fennekkiof course22:35
fennekkiit's not Android22:35
sharpnelifennekki: So is Mer and Nemo.22:35
sharpneliAnd every android device in reality has binary blob drivers and bunch of closed google stuff on top22:36
fennekkisharpneli: regarding which comment22:36
fennekkinot necessarily Google22:36
sharpnelifennekki: Mer and Nemo are fully open22:36
fennekkiYeah, I konw22:36
fennekkiknow*22:36
fennekkiand that's pretty cool22:36
jonwilActually I dont know that Mer and Nemo are 100% FOSS, don't they use GPU driver blobs?22:37
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sharpnelijonwil: Then AOSP is not open source either22:37
fennekkilike22:37
sharpneliYou cannot use it without closed blobs22:37
sharpneliBecause there is no mobile HW with fully open stuff22:37
jonwilyep, its not 100% FOSS22:37
fennekkitechnically if the blobs are not in the fundamental distribution and if it could, on theoretical hardware, run without blobs22:38
sharpneliYes.22:38
fennekkithe problem with that is that you can't just write a nouveau analogue for these phone socs22:38
stephgI refer you to necessary evil, these days22:38
fennekkiit's too much effort22:38
sharpneliWhich is why I personally don't really care about drivers being blobs as long as they work22:38
jonwilBut for 99.99% of use cases, the fact that it has GPU blobs isn't as big a deal22:38
fennekkithe main problem with blobs is that *when* they don't work, there's nothing you can do22:38
sharpneliIt's the same as the HW isn't open either22:38
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fennekkiwasn't there actually some device with open hardware22:39
fennekkiòh22:39
fennekkiit was a processor of some sort22:39
sharpnelifennekki: That is true. However thanks to android they are in the "barely usable" level at the minimum.22:39
sharpneliYeah. But good luck on using that to make a tablet22:39
fennekkithat was mostly a tangent22:39
tbrstephg: yes, sadly22:39
fennekkiof course, it's kind of dumb to keep soc graphics drivers as blobs, in my opinion22:40
fennekkiI mean, if you released them, what would be the worst that could happen?22:40
fennekkiit's not like it prevents reverse engineering anyway22:40
sharpneliOthers would sue you to kingdom come?22:40
fennekkino22:40
fennekkiI mean22:40
sharpneliBecause everything in graphics is patented to the maximum22:40
fennekkioh22:40
fennekkiright22:40
fennekkinot just graphics tho22:40
sharpneliIf the drivers show, as an example, that your pipeline uses only floats you will get sued22:40
* javispedro coughs http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg0NTQ22:41
fennekkiI'm sure Nokia owns some patents on some of the hardware in the Jolla for one22:41
sharpneliThis is no joke. SGI owns a patent of full float rasterizer.22:41
jonwilAs for the "you cant write open drivers for these SOCs" see http://freedreno.github.io/ http://limadriver.org/22:41
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sharpneliThe patent literally is "A rasterized where every part uses floats and no integers anywhere"22:41
javispedrothe state of "mobile" GPU free drivers is actually very interesting22:41
fennekkiafter the Apple patent on their menu layout I stopped believing in patents22:41
javispedroexcept for the PowerVR, which is mostly a wasteland22:41
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sharpnelifennekki: The problem is not us believing in them. The problem is judges believing in them22:42
fennekkisharpneli: no, I mean, I stopped believing they could ever be useful22:42
sharpneliSure. But they are immensely harmful22:42
fennekkiI have yet to see a single case of patents used for any reason except making other companies pay for stupid shit22:42
sharpneliAnd I understand why a company might want to hide as much as possible22:42
fennekkiwell, unless you separate "driving others out of business"22:42
fennekkiSoftware patents are even wors22:43
fennekkie22:43
fennekkiit's the same, except now three companies hold the same patent22:43
fennekkibecause patent officials don't understand software22:43
jonwilSoftware patents are crap22:44
jonwiland I am 100% against them22:44
sharpneliYup. They server pretty much only to slow technical advancement down22:44
sharpneli*serve22:44
stephgbedtime, g'night folks22:44
jonwilThe biggest problem in the US isn't patents per se, its the way the system has been perverted through the courts (various supreme court rulings etc) from what the founding fathers of the USA intended it to be.22:45
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jonwilThere are definatly instances of things being patented that are genuinely innovative and worthy of a patent22:46
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fennekkipatents are more useful when the lifetime of your product is more than the lifetime of the patent22:48
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fennekkia patent on a modern technology, especially re handsets, is essentially valid for the entirety of the time you could have competing products22:49
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fennekkiSo, functionally if not technically, patents are something you use to get money for things others make22:51
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fennekkiwhile simultaneously stifling competition BECAUSE of the licensing fees involved22:52
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jonwilYeah I agree that software patents are bad22:52
jonwilBut like I said, not all patents (even today) are bad22:52
jonwilLook at drug patents, those encourage drug companies to research drugs that wouldn't otherwise get made22:52
fennekkiuh.22:52
fennekkiI would argue it encourages drug companies to try and profit off things they know they can do before smaller entities can22:53
fennekkiit doesn't.. really create USEFUL things, it creates PROFITABLE things22:53
fennekkiwhen those are the same thing, fine22:53
fennekkinow you have your useful drug22:53
fennekkiit's going to be too expensive to buy for years, so it gets subsidized and big pharma makes $$$22:54
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jonwilThe job of the patent system is (or was intended to be at least) to encourage innovation and the creation of new things by granting their inventors a temporary monopoly22:55
fennekkiI know that22:55
fennekkiAnd it's great when it applies to say, some mechanical invention22:55
sharpneliI loved when the MS patent list leaked. The one they used to grab money from Android manufacturers22:55
sharpneliOne of their patents was apt-get22:55
sharpneliI really love how some company has the balls to patent something someone else is doing and then sue others with it :D22:56
fennekkisharpneli: that's actually awful22:56
fennekkiI mean22:56
ninnnusharpneli: Which is why it'd be cool if the patent system required the "inventor" to implement it too.22:56
fennekkiif it was just "they have the balls to" it'd be amusing22:56
fennekkithe awful part is22:56
sharpnelininnnu: Or would require that it would not describe an existing system22:57
fennekkithey could probably succesfully sue22:57
tadziksharpneli: it does22:57
tadzikit's called Prior Art22:57
tadzikI think22:57
fennekkior if not sue, then pump so much money in that they'd win anyway22:57
fennekkilike22:57
sharpneliSure. But that requires bunch of moniez to prove it22:57
fennekkiwin at court, I mean22:57
tadzikand the EU patent guys sometimes call companies up on that, like the "swipe to unlock" for apple22:57
sharpneliBut yeah. It was not just that patent MS used to sue. It was one amongst like 100 or so22:57
fennekkithe EU patent guys are generally better at their job than their US colleagues but they still suck22:58
sharpneliSo for an android manufacturer why spend money on invalidating few if you're bound to get caught violating at least one?22:58
fennekkiabolishing patents for everything would do more good than harm22:58
fennekkiat least we might get ipv6 some day22:58
sharpneliThat's why they always use big stack of patents22:58
sharpneliYeah22:58
fennekkievery time I remember patents exist I just kinda22:58
fennekkilose faith in humanity22:58
fennekkiand I'm usually really excited about everything22:59
fennekkibig companies make me question the necessity of human life22:59
ninnnufennekki: Big companies have already figured that profits > human life..22:59
jonwilninnnu, yes, the patent system should require at the very least some sort of demonstration of the technology. If you have built a new widget that makes jet engines use 50% less fuel, you need to make one. Or at the very least, a prototype, scale model or set of blueprints that would allow anyone skilled in the art to reproduce your patented invention.23:00
jonwilSame with software, if you want to patent software you should be required to show a working example of your software23:00
fennekkijonwil: or a collaboration with someone who can make those23:00
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fennekkibasically adding the clause that you need to be able to do it would make patents meaningless for individual innovators whose patents would pretty much just be invalidated23:01
sharpnelifennekki: Patents by individual innovators are useless already23:02
fennekkisharpneli: yeah, I know, unless they want to sell them for a nominal price23:02
sharpneliNo individual person has money to sue any big companies23:02
sharpneliYap23:02
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fennekkibut basically because of patents it's impossible to create new electronics or commercial software without infringing on someone's patent23:04
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fennekkithere's similar problems with everything labelled "intellectual property" but at least some of those, like copyright, are kind of understandable23:04
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fennekkias in, you can't just take something another individual made and profit off of it without ever mentioning them23:05
sharpneliHowever the length of the copyright is insane now23:05
fennekkiyeah, that23:05
sharpneliI'd go for no patents and 20 year long copyright23:05
fennekkilet's write a petition. ha ha ha23:05
fennekkias if petitions ever got anything done23:05
sharpneliWe don't have what it takes to sign any petition = Massive amounts of lobbying money.23:05
fennekkino, no, petitions sometimes get dismissed not by the lower bureucratic levels but by the actual relevant parliament too23:06
fennekkito get them to succeed needs an incentive23:06
sharpneliWhich means "campaign donations". Which is legalized bribing23:07
fennekkiwell, yeah, especially in some countries like an unnamed United States of America where you effectively can't run for office without a massive budget23:07
fennekkior23:08
fennekkiyou know23:08
fennekkianything23:08
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fennekkibut basically the economy in the world currently is geared primarily toward making profit for those who make the most profit and secondarily toward the making of changes that allow them to make even more profit23:09
fennekkithere IS a solution to this, amusingly enough23:09
fennekkiprivatise massive corporations23:10
fennekkier23:10
fennekkinot privatise23:10
fennekkithe opposite23:10
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fennekkiat this point a centralised evil one world government would be the lesser evil, honestly23:11
fennekkilike, an explicitly evil one23:11
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javispedronationalization23:11
fennekkiThank you23:11
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fennekki...looks like I went off-topic a lot23:13
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fennekkiguess I'll be quiet for a while and try to forget about the evil things in the world again23:13
fennekkiignorance is bliss23:13
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sharpneliIf you cant change the situation it's useless to fret about it. Just adapt. Naturally if an opportunity for change arises one should still take it.23:14
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fennekkiJust give me actual innovation, less shit IP laws and manyfold stricter environmental regulations and I'm going to be okay23:16
fennekkiLiterally, too23:16
fennekkiif something isn't done about this climate change thing a few million people are literally going to die because of profit23:17
fennekkiwheeeee23:17
fennekkiwell, other causes of death than climate change too, but you get the point23:17
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fennekkialright, alright, I'll *Actually* leave now23:18
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