#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2015-01-25

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Ezko_where does jolla put the backup files?04:22
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fennekki~nemo/.vault, I believe04:22
fennekkitoo sleepy to check right noe04:23
fennekkinow*04:23
Ezkocan i find that easily when the phone is connected to windows? :P04:23
fennekki~nemo is short for /home/nemo in case you were unfamiliar with the notation?04:24
fennekkiIf you can access the filesystem then yes, you can also find this directory04:24
fennekkiI'm not sure I understood the question04:24
Ezkoumm, alright04:25
Ezkoi'd like to dig out the file to my computer04:25
Ezkoand it doesn't exactly show everything i think04:25
fennekkido you want the entire backup or just one file?04:25
Ezkojust the backup file that the phone creates from making a backup04:26
fennekkithe phone does not create a "backup file" when you make a backup, it creates a series of directories containing files04:26
Ezkoah04:26
fennekkibut I believe04:27
fennekkithere was a built-in way to get an archive of the whole backup04:27
fennekkionto an SD card04:27
fennekkithat I can check04:27
fennekkiyeah04:28
fennekkiin the backup screen the pulley menu has "Copy to memory card"04:28
fennekkiwhich creates a zip archive (IIRC) of the backups on your sd card04:28
Ezkooh, thank you very much04:29
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lachs0rso is there a way to disable the camera’s denoiser?07:10
lachs0rI really want to disable it because a wavelet denoiser that only processes the luma channel is useless and terrible07:11
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* faenil is so tired of having to close and open android whatsapp to keep it working...12:08
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mornfalltoo bad there aren't any viable alternatives at the moment12:12
Sail0rthx to whatsapp ;)12:13
Sail0rstart an online petition :P12:13
Sail0rto allow opensource third party apps12:13
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tbrmeh, just use some better platform and migrate all your peers12:14
Sail0rthat would be better yes ;)12:14
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Sail0rbut anybody is crying about whatsapp12:14
Sail0rso they should do something about not just crying to people who cannot do anything12:15
mornfallanyone remember ICQ?12:15
Sail0ryeah12:15
Sail0rstill have an account12:15
Sail0r;)12:15
mornfallwhatsapp is icq all over again12:15
tbrnobody sends me icq messages, ever! ;-(12:15
Sail0r:x12:16
Sail0rsad12:16
mornfalltbr: not even russian brides-to-be?12:16
tbrsurprisingly, no12:16
mornfallpoor you12:16
tbrwell, it's a simple xmpp gateway, so I just keep it running :)12:17
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Nicd-bitlbee?12:17
* phlixi has no whatsapp acount ;-)12:17
phlixi..."we" moved all to threema12:17
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mornfallphlixi: yes, pretty... bother jolla to integrate it12:19
mornfallit probably won't get far though12:19
phlixii do not see a native threema app in the future, and no integration. there are just tooo few jolla+threema users12:20
mornfallmore importantly, “Making the app's code open to the public is, from a business perspective, out of question for Threema.”12:21
mornfallso it's all just advertising claims12:21
phlixihowever, you can buy the threema app on their website, so no need for google plax, thats at least a nice thing. you can use it without google12:21
mornfallfor all you know they can be reading your messages because they only generate a few million different keys ever12:22
phlixiwell, its still better than whatsapp and the rest12:22
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mornfallonly if you take them on their word12:22
phlixithey at least claim to do crypto12:22
phlixiand care about privacy12:23
phlixiits a step in the right direction12:23
phlixion the other side, whats app does not even care about privacy/crypto (yes, just recently there has been SOME crypto implemented...)12:24
phlixiif I have to choose betweeen whatsapp and threema, i happyly choose threema all the time ;)12:24
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mornfallI find the “validation” stuff (which doesn't actually prove the system is secure) to be highly suspicious...12:26
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phlixiits closed source and for that you have the right to to think it is suspicious12:28
mornfall(and it's still a closed app that could be rather easily backdoored to divulge private keys)12:28
mornfallit probably isn't, and the key generation is probably OK... but the amount of convincing is a bit suspect :P12:29
phlixiif you put aside this paranoia (where I do not say it is bad, or exaggerated); then it totally makes sense to exchange your keys/fingerprints via QR12:29
Sail0rwhat about telegram and textsecure?12:30
mornfallphlixi: yes, the design makes a lot of sense12:30
Yanieltelegram is only encrypted between client and server12:31
Yanieland the server is closed source for now12:31
mornfallphlixi: which makes the dummy validation even more baffling :-)12:31
Sail0rit has an end-to-end encryption option as far as i know12:31
phlixiboth options where i do not have any peers, but yes, textsecure looks nice12:31
mornfallYaniel: even if the server was open it's useless :-)12:31
faeniltbr, moving peers over to another platform failed, in my case12:32
phliximornfall: i do not know if it is ok to cal it dummy validation, just because it is closed source.12:32
Sail0rwtf my jolla does not want to turn on12:32
StskeepsSail0r: take out usb cable, take out battery, put it back in, press power button?12:33
Yanieland construct additional pylons12:33
phliximaybe pull battery, put back in together with charger?12:33
Stskeepsnah, sadly doesn't do much for a jolla12:33
tbrfaenil: yeah, needs to be sensibly prepared and even then chances of failure are significant12:34
Sail0rit vibrates twice and shows a charger symbol12:34
mornfallphlixi: it's dummy because it doesn't prove anything, not because it's closed source12:34
Stskeepsok, so it's on low battery12:34
Stskeepsput in usb charger12:34
mornfallphlixi: I'm referring to https://threema.ch/validation/12:34
Sail0rbut if I plugin charger nothing happens12:34
Sail0rI try a differnt one on moment12:34
tbrhow long did you wait? also try several12:35
tbrnot just usb from computer12:35
Sail0rah with the n900 charger it runs12:35
Sail0rwith my logitech charger not ^^12:35
Sail0rmaybe not enough power12:35
mornfallphlixi: (it doesn't even show that the system is secure against 3rd-party eavesdroppers, because you have no idea how secure the private key is)12:35
tbrwho knows, that's something where the PMIC needs to be happy and those tend to be picky12:35
phliximornfall: i guess you are missing thepoint12:36
Sail0rfirst time I run out of battery without noticing it12:36
mornfallphlixi: what is the point then? :)12:36
Yanielthe idea of having an indicator for if you have personally verified the other party's identity is not bad12:36
mornfallphlixi: I'd imagine validation would validate something :-)12:37
YanielIMHO12:37
phliximornfall: why does noone use pgp`? ahhh its super complicated12:37
mornfallphlixi: that's completely orthogonal12:37
mornfallphlixi: why no-one uses ssh? oh wait, everyone does12:37
phliximornfall: no12:37
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phliximornfall: you, and me, yes...12:38
phliximornfall: but the majority does not even now what ssh is.12:38
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mornfallphlixi: majority of the target audience of ssh uses ssh12:38
mornfallphlixi: majority of the target audience of threema uses whatsapp :-)12:38
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phlixiunfortunately, yes12:39
temmi_moomajority of "target audience for secure communications" use facebook and wadsdad for their communications, have never heard of ssh and think email is for old people12:39
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Stskeepstemmi_moo: when are you getting your jeri shades?12:39
phlixii would love to see all of them use xmpp and mails with pgp, but at least they use threema instead of whatsapp ;)12:40
temmi_moohopefully fall 201412:40
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attahtemmi_moo: so you have them already?12:40
temmi_moono :%12:40
Stskeepstemmi_moo: can you explain the AR thing where there's a reflective layer in the glasses?12:41
Stskeepsas in, when it's not an external surface12:41
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mornfallphlixi: a major risk with threema is that when they collect enough users, an investor will compel them to silently flip the default to not use end-to-end encryption and start harvesting the logs for advertisment data... :|12:41
temmi_moothey might use a semireflective surface for that12:41
phlixiplus, there is a reason why there is no backdoor in threema (a reason, i do not say there is none...) if threema has a backdoor, their business is gone. its their hole selling point, that it is secure....12:41
phliximornfall: at least it costs something and it is not free12:42
mornfallphlixi: they might have turn to freemium before too long, if they look to attain some sort of critical mass12:42
phlixi(i think it is too cheap, but i do not know how this scales...)12:42
Yanielphlixi: weelll it's not like anyone would have to know about such a backdoor12:42
phlixiyes, thats perfectly clear, but at least to me it seems like as if they where trying to be a secure messenger12:43
mornfallYaniel: well, doing a backdoor that goes undetected is a pretty sophisticated business (closed or not)12:43
mornfallYaniel: your adversary (the security researcher) can trace the program, even if they have to do it at assembly level12:44
mornfallYaniel: but then, how do you think windows games get cracked overnight ;-)12:44
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mornfallthen there is the consideration of a leak... a disgruntled employee could sink the company any time12:45
mornfallso it'd be pretty risky for the app to be a honeypot to collect sensitive data12:46
phlixiexactly12:46
Yanielrisky work is generally paid well though12:47
mornfallI would still go with OTR if I thought a three-letter agency was after me.12:47
phlixiyes, of course12:47
Yanieland it's not like the upstream agency would care about a single company12:47
phlixibut get your grandma to use it...12:47
Yanielhehe yeah the usability issue12:48
mornfallphlixi: if a govt agency was after my grandma, I imagine she'd be kickass enough to use otr ;P12:48
phlixi:)12:48
phlixiactually "they" are after everyone, so this is not valid :)12:48
mornfallnot in a targeted way though12:48
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mornfalland end-to-end encryption doesn't help much about metadata dragnets anyway12:49
mornfallagainst*12:49
phlixiyou know that the automatically do targeted attachs, it is called "tailored access op"12:49
mornfallin this sense, threema shields you from the wrong threat12:49
phlixihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailored_Access_Operations12:50
phlixiyes, and no12:50
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phlixiyes, because it produces more encrypted traffic, which is good (expensive) if there is a lot of it. no, if they target you in specific, because they will not attack the traffic, but the source12:51
phlixibut i do not think it is viable for everyone to use tails etc12:51
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temmi_moowhat put one friend of mine into the local secret police's surveillance was his nearly nonexistent digital footprint on the net12:56
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temmi_moohe used to hang out just a bit with some known gangsters when they hit the same pub => potential surveillance target => very little footprint => extensive surveillance12:57
temmi_mooturned out he is just a punx looking guy who does a computer job, plays in a band and happens to know a lot of nonconventional people, some of whom are on different sides of the law12:57
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temmi_moojust some food for thought when trying to minimize your public net footprint12:58
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temmi_mooencrypting _everything_ and not leaving breadcrumbs on social media as well as paying always in cash means you're just a more interesting target for three letter agencies12:59
temmi_moowith normal amount of crumbs they'll see pretty soon if you're not interesting in whatever it is that they're trying to hunt for12:59
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mornfalltemmi_moo: there should be a service for providing simulated web 2.0 identities13:05
temmi_moo<313:06
kelvanhi, how long should the app registery rebuild in utilities take? my jolla rebooted and still not up again after 10min or so :S13:07
kelvanI'm afraid it bricked itself *again*13:07
kelvanhard reset helped that time13:27
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trigpoin1Has anyone else had issues with nag screens when the phone is in fligh mode?17:34
trigpoin1flight mode17:35
trigpoin1Looks like a bug, everytime I opened an email there was a warning and prompt to turn flight mode off, very annoying17:36
faeniltrigpoin1, you mean the connection dialog?17:43
faenilit wants to download something, so it tells you that you have to connect to do that, and that means disabling flight mode17:43
faenilif I understood your point, the bug could be that it actually doesn't need to download anything, and it still asks for connection17:44
faenilotherwise, it's intended, I guess17:44
trigpoin1faenil There was nothing in those emails to download17:46
faenilmaybe nothing visible...17:46
faenilyou might want to ask VDVsx tomorrow, if you want more details ;)17:46
trigpoin1It was every email, plain text ones17:47
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trigpoin1Ah could be imap, messages I read on my phone are marked as read when I look at them on the PC17:52
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trigpoin1Still not right, unless you are debugging a problem a phone is only in flight mode for one reason17:54
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faeniltrigpoin1, maybe it's not what the user intended17:58
faenilI think it's just a ux choice17:58
faenilsymbian behaved the same, iirc18:01
faenilit keeps asking if you want to connect18:01
faenilbut maybe it also had an option like STFU18:01
trigpoin1STFU is what is needed, it could be too easy to accidentially disable it when it keeps happening18:04
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trigpoin1Have found this discussion, a lot seem to be using flight mode for the wrong reasons https://together.jolla.com/question/53124/option-to-disable-the-select-internet-connection-popup/18:18
Mikaelawhere does that popup happen? I don't think I have seen it18:19
Mikaelaoh, flight mode, I haven't used it18:20
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trigpoin1Mikaela In flight mode, when I open an email that was downloaded before.18:21
MikaelaI see18:21
Mikaelathe comments seem to also tell more cases18:22
trigpoin1I used it for the first time last night18:22
Sail0rI hate this popup when I am roaming18:23
Sail0rNO THE FUCK I DON'T WANT TO CONNECT18:23
Sail0r!18:23
Sail0rxD18:23
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ortylpSail0r: I have this problem too. But in my case it was an Android App triggering these connection requests.19:38
Sail0rhm could be the case, too.19:38
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NijuHad my Jolla almost a week now, love it!21:26
NijuThought leaving android behind would be much harder21:27
Yanielwhat do you mean leaving android behind21:28
Yanielthere is the android compatibility layer after all21:28
NijuYeah, but I find myself hardly using it21:28
Niju:P21:28
urs_It's now more like a "friends with benefits" relationship with android, rather than a real commitment. :)21:28
Nijuhaha, that's it exactly21:28
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Yanielyep21:28
NijuLook forward to the future of sailfish21:29
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mornfallurs: you can still catch a nasty virus from a “friend with benefits” :P22:49
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chem|stmornfall: google is the friend and android is the std23:00
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pp_if there's nothing else available, it's a great fallback23:19
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