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| mcfrisk | Hi, how to stop jolla oom killer from killing apps? I want last summer's behaviour back. Heard from a sailor that there might be a way to disable all this oom crap. | 08:01 |
|---|---|---|
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| mcfrisk | basically this: https://together.jolla.com/question/72016/browser-and-oom-handling-with-update-10/ | 08:06 |
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| mcfrisk | answer to my question seems to be: echo "0,0,0,0,0" > /sys/module/lowmemorykiller/parameters/minfree | 08:24 |
| mcfrisk | buried way too deep in tjc, only threads in maemo.org are able to find these with google searches. how to link to a specific comment in tjc anyway.. sigh | 08:25 |
| mcfrisk | next browser, how to stop it unloading browser tabs and killing off line page reading etc ? | 08:25 |
| mcfrisk | phdeswer: ^^^ | 08:25 |
| phdeswer | mcfrisk: no idea. Have no clue about the browser engine etc.. source is available but would not know where to start | 08:26 |
| mcfrisk | any browser devels here? How to stop jolla browser from killing tab pages which seem to need a full reload from servers when switching tabs? This was the default behaviour last summer and following updates wrecked this functionality, e.g. reading multiple pages in off line mode. | 08:29 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: ^^ | 08:31 |
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| coderus | mcfrisk: afaik browser pages are not reloading since u11 update | 08:37 |
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| mcfrisk | coderus: what is u11? I'm now on 1.1.2.16. Updates since last summer broke my LWN.net off line reading habbits, any other browser tab will cause all previous tab caches to be cleared and a full page reaload from server seems to be needed. | 08:41 |
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| rainemak | mcfrisk, coderus : tabs are "zombified" in case browser receives a low memory notification... foreground tab is not zombified only tabs in background. so, when you switch a tab it will be reloaded if it was zombified | 08:47 |
| mcfrisk | how to disable that functionality? | 08:49 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, https://github.com/sailfishos/sailfish-browser/blob/master/src/webpages.cpp#L36 | 08:49 |
| rainemak | :) | 08:49 |
| * mcfrisk is reading sailfish-browser git log... | 08:49 | |
| mcfrisk | ah | 08:49 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: is this an environment variable? How to set it so that it takes effect in stock jolla phone? | 08:50 |
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| coderus | mcfrisk: put it to browser launcher and schema desktop files | 08:52 |
| mcfrisk | coderus: thanks but I'll need some googling to find out where those files are :) | 08:54 |
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| mcfrisk | so I guess right that ~/.bashrc etc are not enough | 08:54 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: since I got your attention, are you aware of https://together.jolla.com/question/53902/clicking-on-link-in-browser-results-in-network-io-before-user-feedback | 08:57 |
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| mcfrisk | man, "Run gc upon lowmem if browser is backgrounded for 10min" is so wrong from my point of view. Picking any random time that I might not be reading a page or using an app is wrong. Either do full checkpoint and restore as in Android or don't do anything. I as user want to be in control of the phone, the apps, the pages. | 09:05 |
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| ggabriel | ...as in Android, right? [control of the phone, etc.] | 09:06 |
| mcfrisk | well, Jolla hasn't been any better since last summer! | 09:07 |
| ggabriel | fwiw, android does the same thing in chrome at least | 09:07 |
| mcfrisk | ok, I admit, I've not really used an Android or iPhone | 09:07 |
| ggabriel | right | 09:07 |
| ggabriel | so, comparison aside | 09:07 |
| ggabriel | hardcoded time may be wrong | 09:07 |
| mcfrisk | but anyway, I as user want to be in control | 09:07 |
| ggabriel | there may be a better way | 09:08 |
| ggabriel | you have the source code :) | 09:08 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, you could tamper /usr/lib/systemd/user/user-session.target.wants/booster-browser.service and within the [Service] block add EnvironmentFile=-/path/to/conff <= environment variables over there and restart booster-browser (systemctl --user restart booster-browser) | 09:08 |
| mcfrisk | rainemak: perfect, thanks! | 09:09 |
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| mcfrisk | from my user point of view, n9 had it right, I was in control, yes it was laggy sometimes etc but at least I could close some apps then.. | 09:11 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, regarding history things... we have one fix in pipeline that restores the history from a database to the gecko instance => will fix some issues within back navigation | 09:11 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, in broader picture slow network + browsing Internet + good user feedback is kind of problematic combination | 09:12 |
| mcfrisk | with browser from 1.1.2.16 I often get frustrated that I get no feedback if a click to back or forward button worked | 09:13 |
| mcfrisk | rainemak: it's ok to have slow load times, but showing no indication after I pressed back button is not. | 09:13 |
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| mcfrisk | showing a page load indication only after DNS succeeded is bad | 09:14 |
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| mcfrisk | in many cases I click the back button twice, and then get thrown to a completely different site than I expected. | 09:14 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, as said the back/forward handling has one fix in pipeline... will try to prioritize that a bit higher | 09:15 |
| mcfrisk | rainemak: thanks! | 09:15 |
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| * mcfrisk should maybe start compiling the browser, what could go wrong... | 09:16 | |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, regarding tampering browser booster service file... you're on your own | 09:18 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, don't hesitate to ping if you have some questions in future as well | 09:18 |
| mcfrisk | rainemak: well, I've been alone with my complains and broken use cases too ;) | 09:19 |
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| rainemak | mcfrisk, our folks are reading tjc and doing the best in improving Sailfish | 09:20 |
| mcfrisk | what triggered me today was a killed music player and browser tab, again.. | 09:20 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: I'll try to contribute, or scratch my itches. oom is tricky and I wouldn't even handle it, just notify user and tell them to do something if they want to improve situation. Sometimes laggy app is better than a killed app or tab | 09:23 |
| mcfrisk | e.g. PDF plane ticket at the airport, yes I got the Document browser killed at a gate! | 09:24 |
| Stskeeps | mcfrisk: i usually just screenshot | 09:24 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:24 |
| ggabriel | Stskeeps: +1 | 09:24 |
| ggabriel | or reload the page, assuming that you have free roaming | 09:24 |
| ggabriel | sadly, airlines tend to use "apps" | 09:25 |
| zutto | few new jolla phones and we'll have enough memory to never worry about such thing anymore | 09:27 |
| zutto | assuming that jolla keeps up with the competition and doesnt stay behind | 09:27 |
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| mcfrisk | Stskeeps: nothing prevents screenshow viewer from getting killed if you switch between apps or do something else e.g. multitasking in the queue, sigh. Maybe this case could be saved by a magic 10 minute timeout... | 09:31 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: another browser question, sometimes I see a half rendered page with large gray/black areas and rendering updates seem to take ages, is this some network related issues or cpu/gpu thing? It often takes tens of seconds to get the gray areas rendered correctly. for example my browser killing blog reader http://mcfrisk.kapsi.fi/freeski_planet/ | 09:39 |
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| mcfrisk | often when scrolling, there is an initial render and then is suddenly disappears behind a gray/black background color for large portions of the page, scrolling works but content isn't there anymore. | 09:41 |
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| rainemak | mcfrisk, I don't have simple answer... should not be network related per se but website itself might be doing something odd. But likely something going south in browser engine. In the above web site likely in tiling. | 09:54 |
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| merlin1991 | I just had a case of jolla killing all apps | 09:59 |
| merlin1991 | And not letting me open new ones | 09:59 |
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| ggabriel | merlin1991: blinking red light? | 10:02 |
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| merlin1991 | No lipstick survived | 10:02 |
| coderus | maybe btrfs full? | 10:03 |
| merlin1991 | Had blinking red light the past week a few times though | 10:03 |
| coderus | i had almost same story | 10:03 |
| merlin1991 | Reboot brought it back | 10:03 |
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| Pawky|2 | I am still not giving up on wanting to be able to let android apps receive Multicast traffic,does anyone know how to succeed? The driver does receive the traffic but android apps doesn't see it... | 10:52 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: uhm, disabling oom isn't working for me. Changes http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Bbdy02J9 and opened two heavy tabs, went off line, tried to switch between tabs and one of the was trying to contact server and it seems cached pages were completely flushed. | 12:48 |
| mcfrisk | of course did the systemd magic after file changes: systemctl --user daemon-reload && systemctl --user restart booster-browser | 12:49 |
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| mcfrisk | and I'm getting a weird 'trying for ever to reload' effect on the status bar with this setup too. I conclude that LOW_MEMORY_DISABLED is actually broken in jolla browser... | 13:00 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: ^ | 13:00 |
| mcfrisk | sigh, tabs are useless.. | 13:01 |
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| rainemak | mcfrisk, how many tabs did you have? | 13:07 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, upper limit for live tabs is 3 | 13:07 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, for sure LOW_MEMORY_DISABLED is not broken | 13:08 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, what software version you were using? | 13:08 |
| rainemak | mcfrisk, or are using? | 13:09 |
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| mcfrisk | rainemak: 2 tabs, standard 1.1.2.16 with two modifications; 1) stop oom killing apps with # echo "0,0,0,0,0" > /sys/module/lowmemorykiller/parameters/minfree and 2) the browser LOW_MEMORY_DISABLED thing | 13:17 |
| mcfrisk | sorry, third patch applied from https://together.jolla.com/question/57206/musicmedia-player-lists-m3u-playlist-files-in-all-songs-view/ since jolla isn't applying these fixes... | 13:19 |
| Venemo_j | good afternoon | 13:22 |
| Venemo_j | hm | 13:22 |
| Venemo_j | mcfrisk: where did you get that lowmemorykiller thing? | 13:23 |
| mcfrisk | Venemo_j: hidden deep in tjc | 13:24 |
| mcfrisk | and I really want to stop jolla killing any apps | 13:24 |
| Teme | i wonder if the OOM killer is killing my apps on idle... let's say once per day while i have the phone in my pocket all the sailfish native apps crash | 13:26 |
| Teme | i thought it's a problem with my memory card or something since it only ever occurs while listening to music... but maybe that is the only time i notice it | 13:26 |
| the_mgt | Teme: probably true | 13:27 |
| Teme | can the OOM killer kill the music player while the device is in my pocket pretty much idle? | 13:27 |
| Teme | the_mgt: which is probably true.. OOM killer or memory card problems or me only noticing it because music stops? :) | 13:27 |
| mcfrisk | Teme: that's what I have, also, if I've setup music player in a nice way, don't use it for a while, do other stuff, it gets killed and I loose the setup.. | 13:27 |
| Teme | .___. | 13:27 |
| the_mgt | I am not certain wether all my apps get killed, but I sometimes notice that a few apps are closed. Mostly the ones I used a while ago, the recently used ones stay open | 13:27 |
| Venemo_j | actually, the oom killer is a good thing | 13:28 |
| Teme | for me it kills the media player which should never be killed if it's playing music | 13:28 |
| Teme | that should be the last thing to be killed | 13:28 |
| the_mgt | Venemo_j: yeah, we are just holding it wrong.... | 13:28 |
| Venemo_j | +1 | 13:28 |
| mcfrisk | music player does also crash sometimes, and just hang | 13:28 |
| the_mgt | media player is a POS | 13:29 |
| Teme | mcfrisk: did not happen even _once_ during the first 12 months of use or so | 13:29 |
| Venemo_j | but at least it prevents the device from slowing down so hard you have to reboot | 13:29 |
| mcfrisk | Teme: until last summer for me | 13:29 |
| the_mgt | Teme: the OOM is new | 13:29 |
| Teme | therefore i suspected memory card fragmentation but could just as well be the OOM killer | 13:29 |
| Venemo_j | anyway, media app needs some love, it's quite slow | 13:29 |
| the_mgt | or rather, the OOM got a military grade upgrade | 13:29 |
| the_mgt | media app sucks in so many ways, you'd need a map to keep track of it | 13:30 |
| Venemo_j | the_mgt: +1 | 13:30 |
| the_mgt | it probably would be fixed in less than a month if they'd just open source it | 13:30 |
| mcfrisk | IMO, and I've tried to say it out loud before, jolla shouldn't try to handle OOM, instead, let the user decide. Device slows down, show a notification that "memory is low, consider closing some apps". What ever logic is there now doesn't work for me at least. | 13:31 |
| the_mgt | I do not get why it is closed in the first place. maybe some odd hardware acceleration stuff using proprietry code or other weird shit. should be outsourced into a lib or whatever | 13:31 |
| mcfrisk | adding random timeouts, killing logic, etc will always fail in some odd way when user is trying to do something | 13:31 |
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| the_mgt | I am all for OOM, as long as it kills the jobs that were used really long ago | 13:32 |
| Venemo_j | actually, for me the oom thing mostly hates the browser and the meda app | 13:32 |
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| mcfrisk | closing apps works with Android where there is a checkpoint and restore, or at least should be. None of my jolla apps share the state; playlist position, cached open web pages, open email, open picture in gallery etc | 13:35 |
| mcfrisk | /share/save/ the state | 13:35 |
| the_mgt | the tabs in the browser app are saved for me | 13:36 |
| the_mgt | I pretty much do not care for the saved states of the rest | 13:36 |
| the_mgt | user input should be saved, I guess the messages app does so | 13:36 |
| mcfrisk | yes, but not the data so without network connections the url's are useless, and also with network the tabs don't remember where you were reading that well (this got better some time ago, but sitll single lwn.net is failing to load correct position) | 13:37 |
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| the_mgt | ah, yes | 13:38 |
| the_mgt | well, all browsers except opera are shit in this regard | 13:39 |
| the_mgt | I hope the Vivaldi guys do a sailfish port | 13:39 |
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| the_mgt | I hate it when you press "back" in firefox and the whole thing reloads the previous page instead of just displaying the previous state. nuking data in forms, retriggering random js events, etc etc | 13:40 |
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| Teme | opera runs pretty nicely on sailfish, occasionally seems like it could use some more cpu | 13:41 |
| Teme | and yeah, it's pretty much the only sensible browser on mobile | 13:42 |
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| the_mgt | it was on the desktop, too | 13:43 |
| the_mgt | until they caved in and got nailed by the chrome virus | 13:43 |
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| Nicd- | tbh, the last versions of opera were terrible | 13:46 |
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| sakustar | hm. did i miss something while using firefox happily? | 14:23 |
| sakustar | :D | 14:23 |
| sakustar | desktop browsers are easy - never close them or shut down pc ;) | 14:24 |
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| rigo | Nicd-: have you tried vivaldi? | 14:45 |
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| ggabriel | umm... i've had a couple of applications open for days now, one of which is the media player and they don't get killed | 14:51 |
| ggabriel | android is off (of course) | 14:51 |
| ggabriel | and i don't leave the browser open for no reason | 14:51 |
| ggabriel | mcfrisk: one comment about your message to the user when in low memory situations... you need resources to do that, sometimes resources are so low that lipstick has to restart, so there you go | 14:51 |
| ggabriel | even your linux desktop kills processes when memory is low | 14:51 |
| ggabriel | (windows will show a blue screen and mac os x will spawn a "genius from the bar" ;) ) | 14:52 |
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| mcfrisk | ggabriel: resource can be pre-allocated, and bound to memory. There used to be this thing on mobile phones that calling 112/911 should always work, also when other things like memory allocations start failing... | 14:56 |
| ggabriel | mcfrisk: but that's never worked when low on resources | 14:56 |
| ggabriel | i had good old reliable nokias that needed a battery replacement to do anything | 14:57 |
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| ggabriel | alos, how many resources would you preallocate? | 14:57 |
| ggabriel | you need to show the warning, allow the user to see the multitasking screen (with all preview/actions/etc) | 14:58 |
| ggabriel | and allow the user to close applications | 14:58 |
| mcfrisk | ggabriel: heh, there are good and "good" nokias, as much as is needed to call 112 and display a note that memory is low.. | 14:58 |
| ggabriel | provided the user isn't stubborn and chooses to do something else | 14:58 |
| mcfrisk | use the current water mark tuning but instead of killing apps, ask user to do so. | 14:58 |
| ggabriel | mcfrisk: i guess my point is that with your proposed approach you may end up in a situation where you see a warning and can't do anything else except hard rebooting | 14:59 |
| mcfrisk | and if you really want to be sure, then tune systemd/ulimits so that a browser process can not crash the system | 14:59 |
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| mcfrisk | current approach is that phone decides to kill apps and browser pages, I hate that | 14:59 |
| ggabriel | i get your point | 15:00 |
| ggabriel | and tuning is needed | 15:00 |
| ggabriel | but not sure that changing the paradigm is the right solution | 15:00 |
| mcfrisk | yes, the system might run out of memory, and slow down, and apps can leak memory. | 15:00 |
| ggabriel | especially as that paradigm has worked well in other environments | 15:00 |
| mcfrisk | well, I can buy and Android phone with working app level checkpointing, but I dont want that | 15:00 |
| ggabriel | android has the same issue | 15:00 |
| ggabriel | if not worse tbh | 15:00 |
| ggabriel | so, unless you get a device with more memory, you'll be experiencing even worse behaviour | 15:01 |
| mcfrisk | bad heuristics are not a solution, how did jolla browser come up with 10 minute one, for example. If I don't check a tab every 10 minutes I risk it getting killed by oom. | 15:01 |
| ggabriel | i have to keep all my "apps" closed in a 1GB RAM android phone else it starts killing on its own, and it doesn't even multitask | 15:01 |
| ggabriel | ok, i may not use the browser so much :) | 15:02 |
| mcfrisk | n9 had no such problems in my use. it had other problems but... | 15:02 |
| ggabriel | browser on the n9 was so much different though | 15:02 |
| mcfrisk | yes, crap, but it wasn't killed behind my back! | 15:02 |
| ggabriel | no complaints on my part, but unfortunately not up to today's "modern internet" | 15:02 |
| ggabriel | i still agree with your frustrations but disagree with the change in paradigm | 15:03 |
| ggabriel | my laptop will kill firefox if it misbehaves | 15:03 |
| ggabriel | and i'm ok with it | 15:03 |
| ggabriel | i can always restart it | 15:03 |
| mcfrisk | mine wont kill iceweasel, and I'm in control. | 15:04 |
| ggabriel | if you run linux, it will | 15:04 |
| ggabriel | just make it use loads of memory and you'll see :) | 15:04 |
| mcfrisk | it can crash, yes, it can start swapping like hell, yes, and eventually kill it yes. | 15:04 |
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| mcfrisk | but not until something has gone way too bad. | 15:04 |
| mcfrisk | jolla does this all the time. | 15:05 |
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| mcfrisk | in normal use of browser, email and music player. | 15:05 |
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| ggabriel | sadly, things goo too badly with the jolla more often than on desktop | 15:08 |
| ggabriel | some websites are particularly good at this | 15:08 |
| ggabriel | unfortunatly because they fail to show the mobile version and they show a very heavy desktop version | 15:08 |
| ggabriel | so, sometimes there is a chicken/egg situation | 15:08 |
| ggabriel | and in these cases i'm happy that sailfish kills the browser instead of freezing my phone so that i have to reboot | 15:09 |
| mcfrisk | then why not limit the problem to the browser, I'm fine with that. systemd memory limit to 600M or something. That simple! | 15:10 |
| ggabriel | i agree that some further tuning may be required | 15:10 |
| ggabriel | alien dalvik got some love on that respect iirc | 15:10 |
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| marinaio | imo something is wrong with the modern web if the browser needs hundreds of Mb of ram (ore more, on my laptop firefox often uses more than 1Gb of memory) | 15:16 |
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| ggabriel | marinaio: lol, there are so many things wrong with the modern web | 15:18 |
| mcfrisk | applications will always end up using all resource that are allowed -> don't allow them to use all resources | 15:20 |
| ggabriel | that's one of the very basic problems that operating systems tackle and there is no simple solution | 15:21 |
| ggabriel | (unless you go back to single user/single application OS's) | 15:21 |
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| korsakov | Hi chloe. | 16:16 |
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| Fusl | ohai everyone, i have a "Jolla White 16GB EU" here which, when i search for it, does not have android support in the jolla store, is there anything i need to do before i can install android support on it? | 20:07 |
| Fusl | it says sailfish os version is 1.0.2.5 and when i check for updates it says "Up to date" | 20:07 |
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| schiggn | Fusl: my version num is 1.1.2.16. Do you have a Jolla-Account created? | 20:13 |
| Fusl | yep | 20:13 |
| schiggn | Fusl: you may try to update via terminal with developer mode on. Perhaps you get some more information. | 20:14 |
| Fusl | i am connected via ssh, how do i update it from there? | 20:15 |
| schiggn | Fusl: first step: "pkcon refresh" should update package information. | 20:16 |
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| Fusl | schiggn: done | 20:18 |
| schiggn | Fusl: did this work? | 20:18 |
| Fusl | yep | 20:18 |
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| schiggn | Fusl: try pkcon update next | 20:18 |
| Fusl | schiggn: https://scr.meo.ws/paste/2015-04-14-22-19-22-vnoHG6VS.txt | 20:19 |
| Fusl | nothing more | 20:19 |
| schiggn | "ssu lr Enabled" is there anything disabled? | 20:21 |
| Fusl | schiggn: nope, https://scr.meo.ws/paste/2015-04-14-22-21-59-TZuXuEG2.txt | 20:22 |
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| Fusl | schiggn: you think "Reset device" could fix this? | 20:27 |
| kimmoli | this might be related: https://together.jolla.com/question/83369/jolla-sailfish-1025-doesnt-find-updates/ | 20:27 |
| schiggn | Fusl: Never tried ;) And I do not really know more that these few commands to update my system. | 20:27 |
| Mikaela | I would try what kimmoli just linked, it has apparently reportedly worked | 20:29 |
| Mikaela | but there is question on automatic updates there, but it would probably be better to upgrade manually than not at all | 20:29 |
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| Fusl | kimmoli, schiggn: thanks, i got it fixed with the link from kimmoli | 20:57 |
| schiggn | Fusl: great! | 20:57 |
| kimmoli | nice | 20:57 |
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| Fusl | hello from my jolla phone \o/, thanks to both, this also fixed the irc client not starting bug | 21:20 |
| Fusl | is there a way to disable automatic shift/caps on the keyboard and also disable correction? | 21:21 |
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| tadzik | hmm, anyone tried Hearthstone from Play store yet? Doesn't seem to be able to login | 23:20 |
| phlixi | have it on my n7 | 23:21 |
| phlixi | never tried on jolla | 23:21 |
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| tadzik | it just came out on non-tablets too | 23:27 |
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| phlixi | ok, i didnt knew that | 23:28 |
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