#jollamobile log for Tuesday, 2015-04-28

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jcbjoei forgot the other irc channels03:38
jcbjoeanyone alive ?03:38
wmaronehm03:42
wmarone#sailfishos?03:42
jcbjoeyea and there is 1 more03:43
jcbjoei think i figured it out03:43
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lpotter maybe #mer04:59
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MikaelaHi, last night my Jolla closed all running apps and today it's complaining about "no space being left on the device". I started by blaming BTRFS, but it's not it <http://sprunge.us/eaOb> and there seems to be plenty of space in /home <http://sprunge.us/TAAS> where I am unable to remove empty directories09:01
Mikaelabtrfs-balance also complains about no space being left on device /09:01
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Yanielthe btrfs balance service was supposed to run last night09:04
Yanieland looks like for me it did09:04
Yanielmaybe something went wrong with  it? `systemctl status brtfs-balance.service`09:05
MikaelaI am thinking that maybe it caused all apps to close for me. Fusl said elsewhere that the same happened to her, but she said nothing about space09:06
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Mikaelanothing http://sprunge.us/AZQN09:07
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Nicd-yay, my btrfs-balance service ran successfully last night09:08
Fusl[root@Jolla ~]# systemctl status brtfs-balance.service09:09
Fuslbrtfs-balance.service09:09
Fusl   Loaded: not-found (Reason: No such file or directory)09:09
Fusl   Active: inactive (dead)09:09
Fuslumm09:09
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Nicd-Fusl: are you on 1.1.4?09:10
Nicd-it's only in that update09:10
SceltI am and says same to me09:10
Fusl1.1.4.2809:11
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MikaelaFusl: you had to use the manual update with ssu, hadn't you? maybe that caused it to not be installed09:22
Fuslyea09:22
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coderusbtrfs-balance.service, not brtfs :D09:59
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* zutto yells BUTTERFS10:01
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Nicd-oh haha10:01
Nicd-Fusl: try again with btrfs instead of brtfs :)10:02
coderus1.1.4.29 bugfix released: https://together.jolla.com/question/89804/release-notes-114-aijanpaivanjarvi-early-access/10:02
Nicd-cool10:03
Morpog_PCI would welcome a hotfix which gives us more ram :D damn modem firmware......10:03
Nicd-Morpog_PC: just browse to http://downloadmoreram.com/ on the device10:04
Morpog_PCgreat advice! :D much wow! so ram10:04
Nicd-they have a great deal on 4 GB of RAM, previously $199.99, now free!10:04
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coderus:D10:07
Morpog_PCWithout alien-dalvik and it's apps the ram would be enough....10:08
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SfietKonstantinWkill alien if you do not need it10:11
temmi_fookill all humans10:12
Morpog_PCwell, I do need it unfortunately SfietKonstantinW10:12
SfietKonstantinWwhich apps do you need ?10:13
Morpog_PCfacebook messenger, whatsapp constantly10:14
coderusinstall my aliendalvik settings applet :)10:14
Morpog_PCsome others from time to time10:14
FuslNicd-: oh, yea10:15
Fuslsame output as Mikaela's10:15
Morpog_PCseriously thinking about getting a cheap android device as daily driver and playing around with jolla phone and using tablet as main sailfishos device10:16
Morpog_PCand then giving the next jolla phone another chance :D10:16
SfietKonstantinWthere are alternative whatsapp clients :)10:19
SfietKonstantinWand I hope, one day, alternative facebook chat clients :)10:19
temmi_fooso what is the deal with whatsthat?10:20
temmi_fooi mean, people are all over like HERE IS MY TELEPHONE NUMBER PLS HARASS ME10:20
Mikaelathere are, but they don't see messages sent from other alternative clients10:20
Morpog_PCWell, MItakuuluu3 is not yet ready and whatsup is not feature ready10:20
temmi_foobefore whatsthat nobody gave their telephone number to anybody they weren't personal friends with10:20
Morpog_PCtemmi_foo, the deal is everyone uses it. fullstop10:21
coderusMorpog_PC: mitakuuluu3 have even less features for a moment :D10:21
temmi_fooso suddenly giving your telephone number to semiunknowns became mandatory10:21
Morpog_PCIt's like like asking 10 years back: whats the deal about ICQ?10:21
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Morpog_PCcoderus, yeah, thats why I have to use alien-dalvik even longer :(10:24
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zuttoMorpog_PC: the people you know uses it10:24
temmi_fooMorpog_PC: well yes and then msn messenger won and you could give either icq or msn address to someone and they didn't get to know how to send you dick picks to your telephone after hours10:24
zuttoi dont use it, my friends dont use it, my co-workers dont use it, etc10:24
Morpog_PCzutto, nice for you. But in my case everyone uses it.10:24
coderusMorpog_PC: do you think i need to add conversations import from this new whatsup and old mitakuuluu?10:24
Morpog_PCAnd I guess here in germany that is true for almost everyone in the age between 10 and 4010:24
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Morpog_PCcoderus, I don't think it's worth the effort. It will please a small fraction of users for sure.10:33
zutto:|10:33
zuttohere people are still stuck at the free text messages and facebook chat/google hangouts mainly10:33
Morpog_PCI haven't got a SMS for over a year10:33
Morpog_PCor 2 years :D10:33
chem|stMorpog_PC: I refuse to use WA - as long as there is no encryption I trust10:33
zuttoi get them constantly10:33
zuttobut thats cause i get notified that way when my order is ready to be picked up from the store10:33
chem|stMorpog_PC: stop using WA and you will get sms again!10:33
Morpog_PCchem|st, well, thats your right. But your number is already there and your SMS also are not encrypted.10:33
kjetilhoGSM is encrypted10:33
Morpog_PCand hacked10:33
ppfor some definition of encrypted10:33
zuttobetter than nothing (TM)10:33
ggabrielrainboy encrypted? ;)10:33
kjetilhowell, GSM handsets are usually vulnerable to MITM10:33
Yanielconsidering people have hacked and tapped GSM with a drone flying by...10:33
kjetilhoto break the crypto itself with a passive attack is hard, I think?10:33
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Morpog_PCwhatsapp is also encyrpted lately, not that it's trustworthy, but also better than nothing (TM)10:33
SQUelcherI'm still texting a lot :>10:33
kjetilhoYaniel: is that providers still using A5?10:33
Yanieldunno10:33
YanielI don't remember the details, but I read an article about that some years ago10:33
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pptraditional 2G crypto is not that hard AFAIK, open source tools for it exist etc.10:33
kjetilhoyeah, but you need MITM to force handsets to downgrade10:33
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Yanielspeaking of MITM, does anyone know how I could MITM the HTTPS traffic of my desktop?10:35
SfietKonstantinWYaniel: easy10:36
SfietKonstantinWburp proxy10:36
SfietKonstantinWor charles10:37
SfietKonstantinWand you set your proxy in firefox or chrome10:37
SfietKonstantinWand done :)10:37
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Yanielhmm I wonder if chromium would honour the proxy for that particular connection...10:38
temmi_foocaptive gateways do it better10:38
Yanielthe thing is, chromium makes a HTTPS connection to google despite me having disabled everything I could find that could be related to such10:38
temmi_fooif you can configure your router you can do anything10:38
YanielI can do that10:39
Tegufork chromium and patch that :D10:39
SfietKonstantinWYaniel: it should10:40
temmi_fooYaniel: okay then you can forcefully put the https traffic through the mitm of your choice and see what goes10:40
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coderuschem|st: you not trust textsecure encryption?10:47
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pppip install mitmproxy is nice (+ add your own certificate)10:50
ppgoogle stuff pins their certificates pretty well tho10:50
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pp(which is good, catches bad governments and CA's :-) )10:50
Teguand superfish?10:50
scottcheh10:56
chem|stcoderus: do we have a telepathy plugin for that? and WA isn't textsecure is it?10:59
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coderuschem|st: wa using textsecure encryption for private messages, but currently only android is enabled it foe everyone11:03
coderuschem|st: don't know about telepathy pure plugins, but there is some for purple11:04
chem|stcoderus: with WA there is still the burden of uploading addressbooks and accounts being phone numbers11:05
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coderuschem|st: sure, but at least with sailfish clients you can choose contacts you want to share and even remove them from servers after using whatsapp :)11:20
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Mikaelanow communi-sailfish also removed all networks that I htink has something to do with this11:26
Mikaelacritical issue with store application registry11:27
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chem|stcoderus: I doubt you ever remove anything from FB servers ever11:29
chem|stcoderus: WA is and will be WA, no matter what they change - having encryption for one platform means having no reliable encryption, I don't want to give FB more than needed in regards of valid data, so they have a working emailaddress and my friendslist, that should about be enough11:33
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SQUelcherI tell everyone they can contact me by irc, xmpp, text message or just call.. that is more than enough.11:35
ggabrielcoderus: when you say "sailfish wa clients" you mean the one you made? :)11:36
ggabrielSQUelcher: so no letters?! :)11:36
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temmi_fooi know people who have ceased to communicate with me since i'm not reading their fb status updates and i'm not responsing to them in fb11:38
SQUelcherggabriel: Letters are usually bills, so no. Parcels are okay, though :P11:38
chem|sttemmi_foo: $people I can live without!11:38
jaacoppitemmi_foo: do you mean they try to communicate with you but lose interest since you don't reply? How strange11:38
SQUelcherI've never joined fb either11:39
SQUelcherI've had a orkut account years ago :P11:39
temmi_foojaacoppi: :D indeed "i've published the news ALREADY ONCE DAMNIT now just respond to me everyone"11:41
coderusggabriel: :D11:45
japa-fitemmi_foo, https://www.patanen.com/background.png11:45
japa-fi:)11:45
ggabrielcoderus: I assume yes, and thank you, I was always meant to ask that question and instead thought I'd test it, but it's hard to test with a full address book11:46
chem|sttemmi_foo: people wondering why I do not know that they get married, have a child, new car as they obviously posted it to FB...11:51
Joonaawtf11:52
Joonaaall my apps just crashed11:52
chem|steven if I'd read the page everytime I login, I use FB for networking and maemo share an occasional picture of my hobby and chat with my sister (share links while being actually talking on the phone), so I have that many contacts that my newsfeed just runs through11:54
chem|stJoonaa: oomkiller?!11:55
Joonaaoh, thats plausible..11:55
Joonaaoh, it appears that whatsapp has crashed... again11:56
Joonaawhat happened to my battery?!11:56
Joonaai was at 50% just now11:56
Joonaaand after a reboot its back at 50%11:58
Joonaathats interesting11:58
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scottcJoonaa: that has been happening to me too... pain in the ass12:05
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mornfallJoonaa: that's ... "normal"12:06
Joonaaso any time my battery goes down to 4%, if i reboot, it goes up to 50%?12:07
Joonaafree power!12:07
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ggabrielit isn't public, but one of the jolla's features is that it doesn't obey the laws of thermodynamics12:09
SfietKonstantinWfall to 4% battery bug ?12:14
SfietKonstantinWI hope this is fixed with the migration to statefs etc12:14
Mikaelait looks like reboot fixed the issue12:14
Mikaelabut my Communi config is still lost and weather config also disappeared for some reason, no idea about others. Is there some intelligent feature to randomly remove files on low disk space like OS X does?12:15
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ggabriel"intelligent feature" and "randomly remove files12:18
ggabrieldon't go very well together12:18
temmi_fooi guess it's just the wonderful and rock solid GNU/somename filesystem12:18
temmi_fooyou know, the GNU/ part being the important bit and actual program name absolutely nonessential12:19
scottcganoooooooooooooo12:19
Nicd-btrfs is not a GNU project12:19
Nicd-I think12:19
temmi_foois it using gpl?12:19
Nicd-yes12:19
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temmi_foo=> it should be GNU/btrfs if you ask rms12:20
scottcthat's not true12:20
scottcif you think that's why he advocates for "GNU/Linux" then you're missing the point12:20
temmi_fooi completely disagree with him on so many fronts you would not believe it12:21
scottcsure12:21
scottci'd probably believe it12:21
temmi_foostarting from how free is more free with restrictions12:22
temmi_foonow, my current heartchild project happens to release everything in gpl but i'd rather have anybody else than rms evangelising gpl around the world12:23
scottccool12:23
scottcfunny thing about RMS: everyone calls him a raving lunatic, and then often it transpires that his paranoid ramblings are totally on point12:24
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Stskeepsyeah, but is that the best way of getting your message out12:25
Stskeeps?12:25
Stskeeps:P12:25
scottcI won't deny that he's a raving lunatic12:25
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deztructorSfietKonstantinW: the 4% glitch is not related to middleware, so can't be fixed by changing on this level. imo, this is coming from battery circuit impedance issues when it raises and get back, as also maybe kernel driver calculations12:27
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SfietKonstantinWdeztructor: really ? :(12:55
SfietKonstantinWbecause the N9 did had the same issue12:55
SfietKonstantinWso I thought it could be SW12:55
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deztructorSfietKonstantinW: n9 has a bit different story: battery current capacity can drop if e.g. temperature is dropped or voltage is dropped due to high power consumption13:01
deztructorthe same can happen with jolla or any other device13:02
deztructoreven if this device does not tell user...13:02
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deztructorSfietKonstantinW: so, this is not a signle issue but a combination of different objective conditions and real issues13:03
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SfietKonstantinW:(13:03
SfietKonstantinWsounds bad13:03
SfietKonstantinWdoes this means that other constructors might have the same kind of bug ?13:03
SfietKonstantinWsince it seems to be more (almost only) HW ?13:04
SfietKonstantinWmaybe they have SW workaround or maybe better HW ?13:04
merlin1991The battery low warning i got today was funny, it managed to give me about 5seconds before powering down13:04
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merlin1991But from the wording of the message i expected more time13:06
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deztructorSfietKonstantinW: battery capacity tracking is the tricky business, it depends on hw support (fuel gauge) and circuit as also ability to get e.g. interrupts triggered on some conditions causing voltage drop, as also on logic of monitoring (and, again, presence of the needed information)13:08
SfietKonstantinWI see13:09
deztructorand sw should try to balance between user convenience and danger of sudden device shutdown due to further higher voltage drop13:09
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deztructorso, if we cheat user being optimistic it could end in lost data because of sudden shutdown... but sw and hw has bugs too, of course13:10
deztructorwe are trying to use some workarounds13:11
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deztructorand maybe introduce more to overcome possible issues but this is always an double-edged sword13:12
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deztructorbecause filesystem damage has more consequences for user that annoyance from sudden battery percentage drop and preventive shutdown (with fs sync)13:13
deztructorwe can't add this workarounds blindly13:14
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merlin1991So have a real problem: i had to nuke my twitter aacount because it didn't work anymore, now the new one works but when i scroll down the last 10 msgs from the old account are still there (after 14 days)13:18
temmi_foodeztructor: classic sync;sync;halt familiar from olden days of nonautomated ups related shutdowns13:18
ggabrielsounds like an edge case, report it in tjc?13:18
temmi_fooanyways the battery capacity is by no means easy to estimate even if you had energy metering in and out13:19
temmi_foonormally you have voltage metering and current estimates and you're just ballparking13:19
deztructortemmi_foo: any classic shutdown needs some time to finish ;)13:20
temmi_fooyes indeed13:20
temmi_fooso when the office lights went down the bofhs ran to man the consoles frantically trying to at least sync once before ups capacity was ended13:21
fluxreminds me of a previous company I worked for13:22
fluxlights go out, UPS starts to beep13:22
fluxsysadm goes to the closet and turns on the CRT13:22
fluxbeeeep aaand UPS is finished :)13:23
temmi_foo:D13:23
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ggabriellame, intelligent ups's should have a modern rs-232 interface to cause a sync automatically13:23
fluxI don't think they need be that intelligent either, isn't that like the basic functionality13:23
deztructortemmi_foo: you lost one difference between ups and mobile device: ups is always connected to the source of electricity while phone battery is the source ;) as also phone battery working in different temperature range etc. they are different13:23
flux..assuming the software is installed properly :)13:23
temmi_fooggabriel: or even an open collector output to indicate the devices that now would be a really good time13:24
ggabrielflux: well, it works for novell netware 3.12, i downloaded to the Docuemnts folder, I'm sure that's ok13:24
temmi_foodeztructor: i was on about two separate things; that the procedure of preventive shutdown reminds me of ups shutdown, and then that the battery capacity estimating is really just shooting blindly in the dark13:25
fluxnow that's a name of a system you don't hear every day.13:25
ggabrielflux: somebody built a wall around it, cannot be upgraded i'm afraid13:25
temmi_fooalso, these things became automated for smallish office upses in early 80s13:25
deztructoras also one additionall small-small difference... power consumption of the phone jumps in a big range (comparing to the phone battery capacity)13:25
deztructorand voltage drop is actual problem when capacity is below some value13:26
ggabrielto add to the battery conversation, indeed it behaves quite funny sometimes, especially at low temperatures, but sailfish tells you "low temperature dude, i'm going down"13:26
temmi_foophone power consumption is another thing that is not measured, it's at most estimated and very likely not even that13:26
ggabrielbut i never experienced a sudden drop as yet13:27
ggabriel(without proper justification, that is)13:27
ggabriel(or android being on, which does funny things)13:27
deztructorggabriel: this drops can happen if there is increased resistance in the circuit (e.g. removable battery contacts touches connector weaker)13:28
deztructorso, it'd happen on some devices but not on other13:29
temmi_fooit also dips if a software is started as it requires suddenly more power to the cpu13:29
temmi_foonormally it doesn't dip much but when battery is near empty or too cold or too hot it will dip badly13:29
ggabrieldeztructor: fair, i do have a second battery and have swapped them a few times13:29
ggabrielso i guess it isn't that easy to wear the connectors off13:29
deztructorit'd be good to have TOH with ability to insert chemistry simiar to hand warmer... for low temperature conditions :)13:30
temmi_fooundervoltage on a li* battery cell can cause it to become permanently unstable ie. dangerous13:30
merlin1991ggabriel: most likely an edge case, initial issue was that all config files suddenly had size 0 !13:30
merlin1991All account info files that is13:30
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toerblol: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1468768&postcount=114215:50
mornfallyou just pasted that from #jollatohkbd :P15:51
toerbmornfall: ehrm no, just looked the thread up in the forum15:52
toerbmornfall: i am not in jollatohkbd but good idea to join there :D15:52
mornfall:P15:52
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Nightmare__new update, first action: pkcon remove sailfish-tutorial :)17:36
coderuswhy? i'm checking tutorial after each update, waiting for something  new in it :)17:38
Nightmare__everyone has different hobbies :D17:39
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coderusanybody who currently using whatsup and want to switch to mitakuuluu3 when it released?17:46
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coderusokay then :D17:53
TemeVif it is "stable", then yes :)17:53
TemeVoh, whatsup17:53
TemeVI haven't tried that yet17:53
coderus i just need your contacts database to make import function for chats. i have no extra number to test it myself :(17:57
teaburndo you think the accounts will be banned by using mitakuuluu like the last time?17:57
r0kk3rzthats up to whatsapp really17:57
coderusteaburn: i don't think so, i'm doing hard work here :)17:58
teaburni dont know the api and how easy they can see this is not a "original" user17:58
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coderusi'm doing mitakuuluu3 do exactly same as android whatsapp does on jolla (except sending all your phonebook in background, you can choose contaccts for synchronization)18:00
teaburni loved mitakuuluu, till i had to stopped using it for a loooong time18:00
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Ezkocoderus: memememe18:28
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krnlyngcoderus: mitakuuluu3? nice! keep it comming :)18:49
krnlyngcoderus: i would consider switching to mitakuuluu318:49
coderuskrnlyng: you using whatsup?18:50
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krnlyngcoderus: you mean WhatsApp? then yes18:51
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coderusno, i mean sailfish whatsup by cepiperez18:53
krnlyngcoderus: i would be happy to contribute to testing/development if needed (mostly testing because i'm busy at uni)18:54
krnlyngcoderus: no i'm using the official client18:54
coderuskrnlyng: okay then18:54
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raa700_https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fonkraft-modular-smartphone19:10
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r0kk3rzyaay multiple incompatible modular smarphones!19:21
r0kk3rznow you can vendor lockin your phone modules AND your apps19:22
coderusi'm very skeptical with these modular cpu, gpu, ram modules19:22
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Yaniel"PCs have had these for ages, what's the problem"19:23
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ShadowJK_PCs are also dead19:24
coderushow much pins have cpu, gpu, ram modules you think and what the maximum lenngth of wires between chip and board?19:24
kimmolicpg-gpu could be usb3 or pcie, so 2-419:25
kimmolifast ram would be trickier19:26
coderusand it should have a lot of exrta space for logics19:26
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coderusthats why i'm skeptical until i see real device benchmarks19:27
r0kk3rzobviously an integrated board is going to be able to pack more in19:27
r0kk3rzbut if its modular then you can have what you like and not rely on a manufacturer making an integrated device just for you19:27
Tegudo they even have a keyboard module?19:27
kimmoli:)19:27
r0kk3rzalso PCs arent dead19:28
kimmoliif you drop that, it will be like my old moped - collect parts around after failling before continuiung19:28
kimmoliand just tried to change my PC10600 dimms from 3x2GB to 4x4GB. not worky, pc is in power-cycle-loop, 10 sec on, 5 sec off..19:29
r0kk3rzyeah annoying how some motherboards dont like it if you fill the ram slots19:30
peppelakappawhat chipset?19:30
temmi_foor0kk3rz: as an idea the modularity kinda works if they convince 3rd party companies to start making modules and parts19:30
raa700_faulty dimm, test two at a time19:30
temmi_foounless, you're dealing with a single manufacturer modular product where there's exactly one possible module for all module places19:31
kimmoliraa700_: brand new, tested with different combos, tested with different mfg dimms too19:32
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r0kk3rztemmi_foo: 3rd party companies are going to love the idea19:34
r0kk3rzbecause it will mean bigger margins for them19:34
r0kk3rzrather than having apple/samsung/whoever strong arm them on prices because they want all the profit for themselves19:34
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r0kk3rzwell, unless vendor lockin of modules of course, then its likely to be a dead fish19:38
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dr_gogeta86hi peppelakappa19:41
peppelakappahi dr_gogeta86 :)19:41
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dr_gogeta86how here ?19:42
dr_gogeta86peppelakappa, try to reball it in a bga service center19:42
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eye_ajolla )0!1@ joh19:43
peppelakappadr_gogeta86, haha you're talking about my last tweet?19:43
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dr_gogeta86yep19:43
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temmi_foohuh? bga? lemmesee19:44
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peppelakappaheh, 1530€ for a machine that risks bga damage... i cannot think19:45
peppelakappa*i still cannot realize *how* they deal with out-of-warranty users even if the damage is their fault19:46
peppelakappait was a friend's retina btw19:47
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juhajDoes jolla do syncml "natively" or do I need to install some stuff on it first, like syncevolution?20:47
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HtheBanyone know if Jolla GPS sux or it's my own phone? :p22:14
HtheBthe GPS on my N950 is the best one that I had... I turn on Navigation, boom! it's working.. no waiting at all22:14
HtheBsometimes, I (litterly) wait like 20 minutes untill it finds my location on Jolla :/22:15
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mornfall20 minutes is a lot (but I guess could happen in a city or a forest with no assist)22:17
HtheBlol, i dont live in a forest XD22:17
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mornfallyour loss :P22:17
HtheBit works always perfectly on  my n95022:18
mornfallcoincidence (or you have AGPS enabled on n950 and disabled on jolla)22:18
mornfallall phone gps receivers are crappy22:18
HtheBmornfall: both are on22:19
HtheBand no, the N950 has seriously the best gps I've seen on anything22:19
mornfallthen it's broken on your jolla I guess22:19
HtheBeven better then a true navigation device22:19
mornfallmost 'true navigation device's do not have assist22:19
mornfallunassisted GPS to come even close to AGPS it must be an order of magnitude better receiver (at least)22:20
HtheBanyway, are there any particular stuff that I can try to see what is wrong? :(22:20
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mornfalldid you try turning it off and on again? :P (the AGPS toggle)22:21
HtheByup22:21
mornfallyou could try dig into settings22:21
mornfalllook at logs22:21
mornfalldunno22:21
HtheBI even changed to supl.google.com22:21
HtheBeven changed the NTP server22:21
HtheBit works the first 2 seconds22:21
HtheBthen loses signal :(22:21
mornfallodd22:21
mornfalla bug report might be in order22:22
HtheBI hope tigeli can help me again (I found a bug for Wifi before..)22:22
mornfallhm, as far as wifi goes, I'd like to find something that works, for once22:23
mornfallwell, connectivity in general22:23
HtheB:D22:23
HtheBmine works ok, but it didn't with android apps22:23
HtheBseems like something was not right with SQL22:23
mornfallmine works ok, unless it doesn't22:24
HtheBwhen it should be on, it was not changing the value22:24
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