#jollamobile log for Saturday, 2015-08-22

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kimmoliJust pasted a lot, see here http://pastebin.com/BrDv2vd506:51
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r0kk3rzsigh, whyfor use paypal for tablet pre-orders.....08:04
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r0kk3rzits going to make me pay from my australian account, and the currency conversion is shit08:08
r0kk3rzfirst world problems i guess08:08
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r0kk3rzoh well, this way it comes out of the money i forget that i have08:20
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attahAny suggestions on what to try to fix btrfs when this happens http://piratepad.net/aBeFC6RDpV (tried the repair from recovery)08:58
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attahffff! the Jolla crashes when i copy more than a little stuff in recovery mode09:18
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attahand now it crashed even without going to sleep :(09:22
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zett_zelettIs there any new word on when the next device will be released? I’m considering buying a Jolla (as a first smartphone), so I’m eager to get one, but I also hope a new device will bring better build quality/materials. Should I wait?11:54
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Stskeepszett_zelett: that's always the puzzle with any device :)12:01
Stskeepsbecause either you select old and stable (you know the problems you'll get with it) or new (looks better but who knows what bugs it has)12:02
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attahBlaaaarrgh.. trying to recover my files from borked btrfs.. and recovery mode reads anything as filled with only 0x0112:03
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SpeedEvilhttp://liliputing.com/2015/07/jolla-shifts-efforts-to-sailfish-os-exits-smartphone-hardware-business.html zett_zelett12:26
SpeedEvilI do not know exactly how that will look from a user-facing perspective12:26
SpeedEvilthere may be the intent to pick a device from a third party vendor, and sell that as a primary platform.12:27
SpeedEvil(having said that - I have not been tracking this at all)12:27
MikaelaI hope nothing changes except another business logo on boot and I especially hope that there won't be Android-style fragmentation that you must buy specific phone or you won't ever see Sailfish OS updates12:27
SpeedEvilThat is an unfortunate issue12:28
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SpeedEvilIf you have hardware fragmentation - at some point someones got to put man-hours into the smooth running of upgrades, there is no alternative.12:28
SpeedEvilWell - woman-hours.12:28
zett_zelettDidn’t they say they will introduce a new Jolla by the end of this year? So are they still doing that or have they renounced that somewhere?12:29
zett_zelettMan, I hope puzzlephone will (sooner or later) support Sailfish OS.12:30
attahzett_zelett: fans tend to read too much wishful thinking in to just about anything.. I know of nothing even close to official about there even being a new phone planned12:31
zett_zelettOh, okay.12:32
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Venemo_jyes, they are introducing a new jolla. it's the jolla tablet.12:38
zett_zelettI meant a phone, of course.12:38
Venemo_j:P12:38
Venemo_jjust sayin12:38
zett_zelettYa, thanks. Not interested in the tablet, though.12:38
zett_zelettWell, not yet.12:39
zett_zelett(Savin’ my nickles for a nice phone.)12:39
the_mgtanyone here ordered a Textblade? are they already shipping yours?12:40
SpeedEvilit is a shame the tablet diddn't hit the phone goal12:40
ShawnMcCoolt12:40
attahthe_mgt: Is it BLE only?12:42
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Venemo_jSpeedEvil: would be weird to hold a 8" device to your head for a phone call12:45
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SpeedEvilVenemo_j: meh12:46
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Venemo_jSpeedEvil: why?12:47
SpeedEvilVenemo_j: ... 6" 5" 4"12:47
SpeedEvilPretty soon we will be using 96" tablets as phones and combined roofs.12:47
Venemo_jaround 6" is the threshold for me12:47
Venemo_jheh :D12:47
SpeedEvilMore seriously - the nexus 7 2013 I can conveniently hold in one hand while maintaining a secure grip.12:48
SpeedEvilWithout straining.12:48
the_mgtattah: can tell you when it arrived12:48
SpeedEvilYou can fit an 8" display in the same width - though the jolla does not regrettably do this.12:48
SpeedEvilAny smaller hands, and yes, problems.12:48
SpeedEvilBut practically speaking - more from the point of everywhere internet ratehr than phone.12:49
SpeedEvilI have made 2 calls on my jolla, and it's my main mobile.12:49
attahthe_mgt: :)12:50
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the_mgtmy shipping window is august, which is only 9 more days...12:52
Venemo_jSpeedEvil: I see12:53
Venemo_jIIRC it's bigger (wider) than the nexus 712:53
SpeedEvilVenemo_j: yes12:53
Venemo_janyway, maybe it's gonna be possible to use tethering with it12:54
Venemo_jthe only thing bothering me is that I have no idea how to grip a device of that size on public transport12:55
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* attah presses 1 for factory reset13:00
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Victorhi13:21
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Venemo_jhi13:25
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attah[ERROR] Flashed recovery image is too old and does not support phone clearing.13:50
attahFML13:50
attah"A: For some reason it seems your device was unable to retrieve the file from the Memory Card." wut?13:53
attahwhat does factory reset have to do with the sd card?13:54
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Stskeepsattah: there's a TJC post to solve that13:58
Stskeepsafaik13:58
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attahStskeeps: Found it.. i think. I'll try a new copy of the recovery menu14:00
the_mgtStskeeps: did you order a Textblade?14:00
tiwakewoo, jolla tablet is shipping in a couple'a three weeks14:01
attahStskeeps: maybe i found the wrong post.. but using a new menu gives exactly the same output14:02
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attahsh: unlock: unknown operand14:20
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Venemo_jis there a way to download all emails in the jolla email app?14:31
* attah puts his N9 to charge14:33
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attahthis just keeps getting better14:49
* attah fetches second N914:49
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Victorhi, is there anyone working at jolla that can fix a problem in the web page?15:55
Victor(yes, i know is saturday, so is not the best moment to ask, but...)15:55
coderusin finland nobody working in weekend and holidays :)15:56
Victorwas worth trying anyway15:57
coderusi thint it should cave contact us section or something you can use for that15:58
attahcoderus: in Russia weekend works you? :P15:58
tathhulol :D15:59
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coderusattah: we're working 24/716:02
coderusthere is no laws for that16:03
attah:/16:04
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pdanekIf Sailfish device sales will grow like 1000x more in 2016.17:21
pdanekAnd Jolla will get super-rich.17:21
pdanekHow do you imagine change of the company?17:21
pdanekHiring hundreds of new employees?17:21
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Victorit will start acting more selfish and care less about users and community17:22
pdanekHow the money could be invested?17:22
pdanekright17:22
CoolgeekVictor: bad pun17:22
StskeepsVictor: that would probably only happen at the loss of a majority of key employees17:23
StskeepsVictor: it sits very deepily in us17:23
pdanekWell, if majority of users and community will be Indian teenagers.17:24
VictorStskeeps: I don't think there is anything wrong with the people currently developing jolla. Actually I just bought the jolla smartphone a few minutes ago because I like what you're doing, but when you grow you get new challenges17:24
pdanekAnd "we" will be just 1%.17:24
StskeepsVictor: sure17:24
Victorand most of the time the way of dealing with this new challenges is doing non-nice things17:24
Victorthis might mean that as the company grows people get replaced, sure17:24
pdanekAnd all will yell: we want native angry birds! and shiny sharks17:24
StskeepsVictor: the thing is also if the company will even grow, fwiw; and how much is outsourced17:25
tathhupdanek: yeah, soon that angry birds will be most voted TJC-question :P17:25
Stskeepsstuff like (sw) care is outsourceable17:25
tathhu-that17:25
VictorStskeeps: well, the initial discussion started assuming the company will be 1000x17:25
Victor:)17:25
Stskeepstrue17:25
pdanekIt's not too hard to imagine, 1000x, considering how tiny Jolla is now.17:26
Coolgeekthe real question is: when SFOS will take over android ?17:26
VictorStskeeps: in any case, outsourcing is not the panacea. Outsourcing creates a lot of problems, the biggest one is quality17:26
StskeepsVictor: oh yes17:26
pdanekAnd I mentioned 1000x device sales, not 1000x employees17:26
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pdanekSo if Jolla sold 20k device, it must sell 20 million in 201617:27
pdanekdevices*17:27
VictorI guess the best outcome is jolla growing and never becoming dominant17:27
Stskeepswell, remember there's a splitup now, sailfish and the jolla devices17:27
Victorhaving a big market share, but not big enough to set the rules of the game17:28
StskeepsVictor: becoming a majority or monopoly is never good for innovation17:28
Stskeeps:P17:28
pdanekIndia itself will probably sell more than 500+ million smartphones in 2016.17:28
VictorStskeeps: that's what I was saying :)17:28
pdanekStskeeps: but it's good for apps17:29
pdanekIsn't smartphone all about apps?17:29
Coolgeekyou mean that android == IOS then ?17:29
Coolgeekbecause they have the same apps17:29
Coolgeekalmost17:29
pdanekMonopolies always catch up with innovation anyway, they have money to do it. Some other small company will appear, do innovation and Jolla and new megacorporation will copy it.17:30
pdanekand Jolla, the new megacorporation will copy it.17:30
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Stskeepspdanek: some might argue that smartphones are all about dominating people's time and minds..17:33
Stskeeps:P17:33
Stskeepsapps is just a vehicle17:33
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pdanekIf I have to book my hotel via webpage on my phone, it dominates my precious time.17:34
pdanekIf I do it via Android app, it's 3x faster.17:34
pdanekSadly people don't do mobile versions of web anymore, we have to deal with it.17:34
pdanekIt's all about apps now, we like it or not.17:35
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Stskeepswell, that wasn't exactly my point :)17:40
zett_zelettDoes this channel have a log? If so, where can I find it?17:40
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Stskeepszett_zelett: it's listed in the topic17:45
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Stskeeps(as is custom)17:45
zett_zelettAaaaah, yes. Thanks. I’ve looked, but I must have overlooked it.17:46
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cybrNautpdanek: fairphone i one of few progressive, forward-thinking phones.  what I don't like is that open-source is neglected from their agenda.18:18
cybrNauti would be on-board with any FOSS phone, but no such thing exists18:19
Stskeepsi wouldn't say it's neglected, just constrained by market issues18:19
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cybrNautpdanek: another interesting jolla phone would be Yotaphone, which is rumored to possibly make the switch from android to jolla18:19
cybrNautStskeeps: not sure what you're getting at.  it's neglected by the market18:20
StskeepscybrNaut: as in sometimes it's hard being oss when you're doing mediatek phones :)18:21
cybrNautAFAIK, you just send the hardware plans to china and they will build it.  There's no reason a phone maker cannot make a FOSS component18:21
cybrNautbut they all take the short-sighted approach of taking something COTS18:22
Stskeepswell, it's not that easy :)18:23
cybrNautStskeeps: just takes a pair of balls.  Corporations fear risk.  They like low-hanging fruit.18:26
StskeepscybrNaut: the problem is that a lot of the weight is in ODMs nowadays18:26
cybrNautodm?18:26
Stskeepsoriginal device manufacturer18:27
Stskeepsmost companies nowadays use ODM companies that do a lot of the sw weight18:27
Stskeepsand hardware18:27
Stskeepsand convincing them is as big effort18:27
temmi_hooalso, the silicon vendors might release support only as nda-only-binary-blob18:28
Stskeepsnot so much a 'might'.. :P18:28
temmi_hooit's take it or leave it, they're not very easy to convince they had to release specs of their hw so that someone coud write oss drivers for it18:28
Stskeepssome might even think the linux kernel for a device they sell to you is business secret18:28
Stskeeps(true story)18:28
temmi_hooif you're big you could do it but the bigs don't seem to want to18:28
cybrNautyou're talking about buying canned components18:28
temmi_hooare you talking about making your own components then?18:29
cybrNautchinese hardware makers will simply make whatever is ordered18:29
StskeepscybrNaut: not really18:29
cybrNautgive them your specs, and they will build it.  why not?18:29
StskeepscybrNaut: i've been part of the sourcing and evaluations for jolla1/tablet and a few other things, it's certainly knocked me down a few notches in terms of my idealism (and you can find those posts online..)18:29
Stskeepshardware makers can be really difficult to dance with18:30
cybrNauti've seen cheap SDR hardware coming from china.  So you order an SDR from china, and do the software in India, why not?18:32
Stskeepstry getting that certified and OK'ed for entering onto cellular networks..18:33
Stskeepsi admire what you're getting at though; i wish the world was a hell lot simpler today18:33
Stskeepsbut i don't think it's going to be with mobile phones18:33
SpeedEvilAlso - in the UK - for example - it is simply illegal to sell a phone that can change IMEI18:34
Stskeepsit'll be with things that contain stuff like http://www.sierrawireless.com/productsandservices/airprime_wireless_modules/smart_modules/wp_series/18:34
SpeedEvilWith actual criminal penalties.18:34
SpeedEvilSo you're going to need to - even if only for approvals purposes - make the firmware for the phone part closed.18:34
SpeedEvilOr rather - unwritable18:34
cybrNautSpeedEvil: any phone can have the IMEI changed.  It's not the device that's illegal in the UK, it's the act18:34
SpeedEvilcybrNaut: not quite18:34
Stskeepsa lot of modems have it fused in by now18:35
SpeedEvilcybrNaut: once you start to sell a device that can change the IMEI of a phone (and the phone matches that definition) - and are told about it - you are committing an offence by continuing to sell it.18:35
SpeedEvil(this offence was brought in in ~1995 or so)18:35
cybrNautSpeedEvil: do you have a list of phones that cannot be sold in the UK?18:35
cybrNautnot many phones could be sold there if that were true18:36
SpeedEvilI'm talking of the law, and its definitions.18:36
SpeedEvilThe issue is if anyone cares enough to prosecute18:36
SpeedEvilIf they do, the penalties are heavy18:36
cybrNautSpeedEvil: sure, but if you're a phone retailer, you need to comply.  You need a blacklist of non-compliant phones (and it would be a /huge/ list)18:36
cybrNautpeople are often changing their IMEI numbers on accident18:37
SpeedEvilcybrNaut: I suspect it's not hugely widespread, so prosecutions are not done18:37
SpeedEvilhttp://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/31/contents18:37
SpeedEvilMobile Telephones (Re-programming) Act 200218:37
SpeedEvil(2)A person commits an offence if—18:38
SpeedEvil(a)he supplies anything which may be used for the purpose of changing or interfering with the operation of a unique device identifier, and18:38
SpeedEvil(b)he knows or believes that the person to whom the thing is supplied intends to use it unlawfully for that purpose or to allow it to be used unlawfully for that purpose.18:38
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SpeedEvilSo it's risky. But this is only the specific point. No national radio authority would licence a changeable SDR radio code18:39
SpeedEvil^device with18:39
SpeedEvilIt's a depressing state of affairs.18:39
* SpeedEvil plugs in his jolla.18:40
cybrNautSpeedEvil: you're misinterpretting the law.  the phone itself is not contraband.  A device which assists with changing the imei (e.g. a chipping device) is what's being banned tehre18:41
cybrNautotherwise brits would all have to give up their gsm phones and start over18:41
SpeedEvilcybrNaut: the problem is that you don't read the law that way. In general, what it is for is irrelevant. What the law actually says is relevant.18:41
SpeedEvilAnd what is prosecuted is yet another18:41
SpeedEvilSorry - I shouldn't have brought it up - I've been  reading boring legislation all day18:42
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cybrNautSpeedEvil: so you have caselaw to the contrary?  can you cite that?18:42
cybrNauti really doubt the law has been interpretted to ban any particular phone itself18:43
SpeedEvilYour point would be valid if id said 'supplies a device to change an identifier'18:43
SpeedEvilbut it says 'supplies anything'18:43
cybrNaut"he supplies anything which may be used for the purpose of changing or interfering with the operation of a unique device identifier, and"18:43
SpeedEviland 'may be used' not 'for which the primary purpose'18:43
cybrNautSpeedEvil: the purpose of a phone is not to change its own IMEI number18:43
SpeedEvilcybrNaut: That is not the sole purpose. However it is one of its capabilities. And the 'may be used' brings that in.18:44
SpeedEvilOn a more on topic note.18:45
cybrNautSpeedEvil: it's not a capability because it's not even a feature of a phone.  When people change the IMEI number, they are *hacking*18:45
SpeedEvilcybrNaut: I'm talking of a phone with a completely open software baseband18:45
cybrNautno phone has a feature by which the purpose is to alter the IMEI18:45
SpeedEvilAnyway.18:45
SpeedEvilDo 64G microSDs work without issue, or are there problems.18:45
SpeedEvilSorry for bringing it up18:46
cybrNautSpeedEvil: open or closed, it's the same.  Either way there is not an IMEI-altering feature18:46
cybrNautopen phones are more easily hacked.. but it's still hacking18:46
cybrNauti know a FOSS SDR-based gsm stack would be a fight, but it would be a tough win for the government.  The FCC would be hard-pressed to say a product cannot be licensed because it's software based18:49
cybrNautconsdering qualcomm is SDR-based (iirc)18:50
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cybrNautit's just proprietary SDR18:50
SpeedEvilThe issue is not that it's SDR, but that it's user-modifiable.18:53
SpeedEvilThe worst-case is you get a popular phone doing this, and then someone launches a 'send files fast to your friends' app.18:54
SpeedEvilWhich just bypasses the tower, and talks direct - nuking dozens of possibly emergency calls in progress.18:54
cybrNautthere already is a user modifiable gsm stack, no?  osmocom, iirc?18:56
cybrNauthttp://osmocom.org/18:57
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Victorhi19:12
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Pawky|2WTF, why is bluetooth tethering no longer supported on 1.1.7.27 ???20:11
Pawky|2Did I just make my phone useless by upgrade to this version?20:13
coderus???20:19
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pdanekwow21:10
pdanekhave you guys registered the news about OpenSUSE Leap?21:10
pdanekthat's huge21:10
pdanekAnd I guess Tumbleweed will be now rolling from SLES source as well.21:11
tiwakewhat about SUSE?21:12
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pdanektiwake: OpenSUSE will be now based on SUSE Linux Enterprise, same as CentOS = RHEL.21:13
pdanekradical change of the project21:13
tiwakeI thought it was fedora and red hat...21:14
tiwakeoh no21:15
tiwakefedora is red hat's testing ground, more or less, from what I understand21:15
Victorwasn't opensuse the same for suse?21:15
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pdanekVictor: it wasn't21:18
pdanekOpenSUSE is/was completely independent from SUSE Linux Enterprise last few years21:18
pdanekDifferent distribution basically.21:19
pdanekNow OpenSUSE will become something like CentOS, based on SLES releases.21:19
VictorI see21:22
pdanekOpenSUSE Leap will be aligned with SUSE Linux Enterprise releases.21:22
pdanekAnd OpenSUSE Tumbleweed will be rolling based distro, much like Arch, also coming from SUSE Linux Enterprise, but with newest and latest, but well tested and stabilized.21:22
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pdanekOpenSUSE Tumbleweed actually exists from last year, but now it's changing to SLE versions.21:22
pdanekpackage versions*21:23
pdanekThta's how I underdstand it.21:23
pdanekI just read about the stuff maybe 20 min ago21:23
pdanekI'm only curious if future state of OpenSUSE Tumbleweed will be more stable than Fedora.21:25
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* lpotter uses susestudio is make custom suse21:33
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dr_gogeta86hi lpotter21:40
dr_gogeta86why help and not made ?21:40
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