#jollamobile log for Friday, 2015-10-16

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SHIHUAmorning everyone00:18
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Morpoghello, is it normal that alien-dalvik in jolla tablet is in english?05:08
MorpogI tried to change the build prop, but after a restart of alien dalvik it gets replaced with default05:09
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MorpogOK, done as root, now it sticks and it's in german finally :D05:44
Stskeepsfile together.* issue if not already there05:44
Stskeepsmeanwhile: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/676993694/solu-a-new-breed-of-computing05:44
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MorpogStskeeps: I would, but I cannot sign in into together05:48
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tbranyone got their invitation since yesterday?06:10
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stephgStskeeps: briefly looked at that this morning; much concern about the cloud aspect...07:04
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chem|ststephg: +1 no way I trust any company at that level08:45
chem|stnice device, but without a sane detached private cloud solution (preferably open too) absolute no go08:46
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Nitialthey say "SoluOS is cloud agnostic. You can keep your documents in whatever cloud you want to, even in your own private cloud."08:49
chem|stNitial: I am about the operating system08:50
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chem|stthe whole infra needs to be on 'my' servers08:51
chem|stcolaborative working may aim at companies, anything bigger than a couple of 100 employees does usually not allow stuff like that "for a sane reason"08:52
chem|stand my linux infra does not come with a subscription08:56
Temppu-Temei kind of like the idea and people do such things, but can't really see how that can work with a team of 13 people :/08:57
StskeepsTemppu-Teme: meh, they said you couldn't do a OS with 100 people08:57
Temppu-Temei am under the impression they are making an OS, hardware design, an app ecosystem for said OS _and_ a cloud infra to back all that up08:58
StskeepsTemppu-Teme: yeah, i can say that with experience it's not the easiest thing in the world08:58
Stskeeps:P08:58
Temppu-Teme:D08:58
arbtw, is it just me, or does the terminal on tablet feel a bit slow?08:59
Stskeepsar: more pixels ?08:59
Stskeepsar: you got the tablet?08:59
arStskeeps: yup, 64G version.08:59
Stskeepsar: awesome, first one in poland, besides my lab ones?08:59
arStskeeps: dunno. i don't know anyone else from poland who did order it09:00
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Temppu-Temeit would be nice to know if SoluOS can run pretty much any Linux software or what the deal there is09:00
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chem|star: everything feels slow09:00
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Temppu-Temebecause people will require all sorts of fancy software to work on it before it becomes useful, that's even harder on desktop than mobile IMO09:01
archem|st: not sure about that one09:01
stephgchem|st: yeah definitely09:02
chem|stit looks very much like the idea of thinclients but with own storage and therefore the whole thing feels so Apple "Look we did something completely new!"09:02
Temppu-Temebut this is not thinclient at all since it works offline too09:02
chem|star: compared to the phone, the tablet feels like having a bad day09:02
chem|stTemppu-Teme: you can run stuff on a thinclient too you know09:03
Stskeepsar: fingerterm uses old ui engine stuff so with 2K pixels..09:03
chem|stadd a harddrive and off you go09:03
arStskeeps: anything else uses the old ui engine?09:03
Stskeepsar: not to my knowledge09:03
Temppu-Temei assume this will run anything, it's just not cloudsynced at the time09:03
chem|stTemppu-Teme: so it is a thinclient with offline capabilities09:04
arStskeeps: btw, any reason why btrfs isn't used on the tablet? has anyone actually experienced data loss on the phone?09:04
Stskeepsar: oh yes.09:04
Temppu-Temehmm, maybe we have different definitions of thinclients :P09:04
Stskeepsar: lvm+ext4 is far saner so far09:04
arStskeeps: well, it makes life a bit easier for me, as i intend to shrink the home partition and install gentoo ;)09:05
Stskeepsnod09:05
Stskeepsi'm working on the gpl dump for the device09:05
pp_I'd guess btrfs would be ok if you weren't stuck with android-compatible kernels :P09:05
Stskeepsshould make other-OS activities better09:05
Temppu-Tememy impression from skimming the kickstarter page is that no processing is done in the cloud (which to me is the definition of thin clients)09:06
chem|stTemppu-Teme: just for a second, try to empathize... what is the real difference between Solu and a current thinclient? Now look at a mobilephone and a smartphone, now extrapolate to SmartThinClient09:06
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SHIHUA—。—09:09
Temppu-Temewell the real difference is what i said above, where does processing take place.. i got the impression that Solu only uses cloud as storage09:09
SHIHUAwho had have tablet?09:09
chem|stTemppu-Teme: take the processing out of your thinking09:09
chem|stTemppu-Teme: all software is in the cloud09:10
Temppu-Temehmm09:10
Temppu-Temehow can you run it locally then? :D09:10
Temppu-Temebtw i am not saying you're wrong09:10
chem|stand the idea of having both, offline and online processing was whitepapered years ago09:10
Temppu-Temesoo... when you are offline you are running local copies and when online you are using them in the cloud? O_o09:11
chem|stTemppu-Teme: you have 32gb internal storage, you can probably tell what you want to have available offline09:11
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SHIHUAhow to buy it in China.@.&09:12
SHIHUA@.@09:12
chem|stTemppu-Teme: what Solu does I do not know (yet) but the idea was to have local copies for offline usage but when online you only get the videofeed from servers09:12
Temppu-Temeok, that makes sense09:13
Temppu-Temei fear this device will be too complicated for a software engineer to use ;)09:13
chem|stSHIHUA: for now there is no public availability and china indiegogo do not get delivered09:13
SHIHUAchem|st: OMG,thanks,just wait09:14
chem|stTemppu-Teme: that was from the whitepaper about intelligent cloud computing with offline capability09:14
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chem|stSHIHUA: yes, just wait, I guess Jolla will make it available early next year09:15
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SHIHUAchem|st: hope this.=.=09:16
SHIHUAbuy this phone in Finland but it make in China.09:16
chem|stTemppu-Teme: so while the Solu hardware is pretty impressive, I run software that hits our hardware limits for desktop computing09:16
SHIHUAkidding me.>.<09:17
chem|stSHIHUA: they ship from HK09:17
chem|stSHIHUA: 98% of hardware is mad in asia09:17
SHIHUAchem|st: made in China  on the box.09:18
SHIHUAwhere  tablet ?09:18
SHIHUAFinland?09:19
chem|stTemppu-Teme: so I'd actually love a system that is capable to source online processing when it needs it, the box is 90% idle but 10% 40GB RAM, 16 cores at 95% and an Nvida Quadro screaming09:19
chem|stSHIHUA: all hardware09:19
SHIHUAchem|st: ai,but I bought  Nokia N1.Jolla  is too later.09:21
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SHIHUAFinland is very very beautiful. m09:25
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SHIHUAwant to go very much.09:26
SHIHUAbut it's  cold09:26
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Nicd-go to norway instead09:38
Nicd-it's much better09:38
Scelthaha, so Finnish09:38
Scelt"don't come here. go somewhere else."09:38
SHIHUA@.@09:40
Nicd-well Finland does look pretty dull if you compare to our western neighbours09:40
TofeNicd-: if you like lakes and trees, there's no match for Finland09:40
SceltNicd-: for you yes09:40
Sceltyou've been watching these views for decades09:40
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SHIHUAjust want try food09:41
TofeNicd-: I will come to Turku this winter *willingly* !09:41
Nicd-Tofe: norway has more lakes and all of these countries have plenty of trees09:42
Nicd-Tofe: Turku of all places :|09:42
SHIHUAwork in Finland09:44
SHIHUAit's very nice09:45
Scelteverything is nice here09:45
SHIHUAisn't it?09:45
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SHIHUAhah.09:46
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SHIHUAmaybe  will go09:46
SHIHUAthere09:46
SHIHUAnext year? next ten years?haha09:47
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chem|sthttps://together.jolla.com/question/115350/back-to-android-for-now/ sounds like a TJC summary without reading TJC for the parts that are actually answered and beware RTFM -.-10:58
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Nicd-it's funny that they complain about textsecure not working when there is a working version in the store11:01
Siddereally would like to have the full textsecure features without google services...11:03
Yanielso much misinformation in this post11:04
Stskeepsironic textsecure requires google service..11:04
Stskeeps:P11:04
Siddeand you also need to trust moxie11:04
Siddebut he's a sailor, so it should be trust by default ;)11:05
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Stskeepswho?11:05
SiddeMoxie, the man behind textsecure11:05
Stskeepsok, just got confused since sailor usually means for us == jolla employee11:05
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Siddei'm a sailor, a skipper and an owner of 2 boats11:06
Sidde;)11:06
Siddebut i'm working for a swedish government agency and not jolla11:06
Sidde;)11:06
Nicd-;) ;) ;) ;)11:08
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twaapo_more ambiguity is always fun11:14
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nh1402coderus: any ideas how one would simulate a near-ir image with a grayscale image and a change in contrast?11:33
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nh1402since iris recog works best with an near-ir camera, simulating such an image with a standard camera could/should improve the detail in the iris for better recognition.11:36
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fennekkihumm, I reckon the reason it works best with near-ir is, the reflective properties of the iris in near-ir are different from the visible spectrum, so I doubt you can really simulate that unless you can extract the same information from the colour channels11:38
fennekki...in which case near-IR wouldn't have it work better after all11:39
Hellenope11:39
Hellein near IR the iris is way more reflective then anything else on the human body11:40
Helleso you compare a NIR and a visual light image and get a perfect match11:40
Helleor if you only have NIR, you need to do some more complex filtering11:40
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nh1402http://nrmsc.usgs.gov/lo_pans/mtreyn.htm11:48
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nh1402with some editting it could look even more similar11:49
nh1402with some testing with say two webcams one with the ir filter (for normal visible light pictures) and one without, might be able to create an algorithm to simulate such an image.11:53
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Hellebut why would you simulate it11:55
coderusnh1402: why asking me?11:56
fennekkiHelle: I specifically meant the iris has different reflective properties in near-IR as opposed to colour, ie. it being more reflective11:56
fennekkiwell11:56
fennekkiit's probably an ir emitter too11:56
Hellenot in the NIR11:56
fennekkimm11:57
nh1402I don't know, maybe you have a near-ir camera lying around11:57
fennekkiyes11:57
fennekkieyes suddenly turning very hot might be an issue, I suppose11:57
HelleI do, modified webcam with the NIR filter replaced with a NIR passband filter11:57
Helles/passband/bandpass/11:57
Helle(dichroic)11:57
nh1402Helle: I have no idea what that means ;)11:57
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Hellewell, then please stop trying to "simulate" NIR and just grab an algorithm for iris recognition designed for the visible spectrum11:59
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fennekki^11:59
fennekkiif it were possible to effectively simulate a NIR image based on a full-colour one you could just use a colour camera for the same job instead of doing NIR12:00
Hellefennekki: well, basically it could be useful to remove the NIR sensor and not install a bandpass for it, but then you have NIR information mixed in with regular visual spectrum information and where and how depends a lot on the exact composition of the bayer mask, so you'd have to reverse engineer that and other mess12:01
nh1402Helle: I just want to make sure that once I dive into iris recognition algorithms it is as accurate as it can be.12:01
Hellenh1402: well, this is a great way to get no result whatsoever, the NIR reflection is not miorrored in the visual12:02
nh1402fine, I'll stick with the visual spectrum.12:02
Helleas said, you could, if you can strip out the filter and have a known bayer mask you can calibrate against, but it's still a bloody mess12:03
Hellebecause you are doing statistical analysis then of the chance that part of what you see is caused by NIR vs visual light and none of the algorithms are designed to inherently deal with that mess12:04
Helle(I've done some work on iris tracking to track eye movement in general, but you can see what the iris recognition stuff does in the images we use)12:05
Helle(also check into the latest results, that indicate that the iris may change too much for it to be useful without so much fuzz that it becomes exploitable12:06
Hellefingerprints suffer the same problems)12:06
nh1402how accurate can gaze tracking be with a single camera?12:06
Hellenh1402: if you calibrate it, quite, the eye/nose triangle that we use for that is fixed on people for our purposes12:06
Helleso we just track the triangle as a fixed size feature12:07
the_mgtnh1402: we do gazetracking here for science. with a camera fixed to your head pretty good12:08
Hellethe_mgt: yep, that is another option, or just good old quad camera setups (dual optical, dual NIR)12:09
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the_mgtyou also need a second camera that films your POV, though. also some markers in the scenerey you are looking at help12:09
nh1402what if its far away (by those standards), about the distance one would hold a phone.12:09
Hellethe_mgt: the reason we tried this method is that you can just do it by hanging a single webcam on a laptop, much more "portable", sometimes a valuable property12:10
the_mgtHelle: do you do it "live"?12:10
the_mgtwe record the stuff and most of the time there is lots of post preocessing12:10
the_mgtfiltering out the blinks, checking if the headmounted thing moved, etc etc12:11
nh1402so I'm guessing gaze tracking from a phone wouldn't work.12:11
Hellethe_mgt: it runs live in our case, you can see the result live on a second monitor12:11
nh1402maybe the kindle fire phone, seeing as it has 4 front facing cameras.12:11
Hellealthough it also records it12:12
the_mgtHelle: and how much processing power is used?12:12
Hellethe_mgt: too much to be fair12:12
Hellethe_mgt: the laptop it's normally used with is a high end gaming "laptop"12:12
the_mgtthought so. we had a headmounted system once that ran on a dos computer, it used ir diodes on a screen and you could use it in real time. but the hardware was buttugly and huge12:13
Hellethe_mgt: yeah, the "portable" here is mostly, it all fits into a suitcase (including second monitor and second control laptop) and can be setup in 15 minutes12:14
the_mgtiirc, samsung has "eye control" on some devices, but a friend of mine who used it said it was to shabby12:14
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Hellethe_mgt: not so much "it's a little Apple Air and you are ready to go"12:15
the_mgtthat's probably the reason why such systems are not yet mainstream12:15
HelleI was just involved in testing out a few of the algorithms and modes for it12:16
Helleso I don't even know how good the performance is in practice, the stuff I did ran offline12:17
the_mgtfor what purposes do you use it?12:21
taaemseriously i wonder how solumachines want to make hardware, an OS and an Eco-System with 13 people... Even Jolla are 100 and they struggle with manpower12:22
coderusnh1402: i'm not doing hw stuff12:24
Hellethe_mgt: I think it ended up being used by the university UI and usability research for just general testing12:24
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the_mgtHelle: we use it for testing car assistance systems and general driver behavior in a driving simulator12:27
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Hellethe_mgt: ah, yeah, then making it head mounted makes sense12:27
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r0kk3rzStskeeps: what do you think about this solu contraption? have you seen it?17:48
r0kk3rzthe interface they've come up with is a bit science fiction really17:48
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nh1402r0kk3rz: what happens when its offline17:49
Yanielit works locally17:49
r0kk3rzwho knows!17:49
Yaniel32gb storage is for a reason17:50
r0kk3rzsurely they can fit more than 32gb in the thing17:50
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r0kk3rztheir business model is a little bit chicken and egg though17:51
r0kk3rzfor early adopters they'll be paying monthly for no software17:51
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nh1402I mean sure there needs to be something to handle the hardware, but its a cloud based OS like chrome OS.18:02
Stskeepsr0kk3rz: i prefer something tied to myself that represents my digital self and through that all my data is encrypted and stored in any location i please18:03
r0kk3rzStskeeps: yeah the whole 'cloud first' thing leaves a bit to be desired really, but there are a few interesting ish concepts on display18:03
Stskeepsi believe in 'me first'18:05
Stskeeps:P18:05
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the_mgtI wonder why it needs new hardware. basically it is some kind of evernote/googledocs/yourpreferedcollaborationsoftware on steroids18:09
the_mgtjust write an app18:09
r0kk3rzsince it runs android, im surprised they arent pushing that it can run android apps18:09
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r0kk3rzand let developers push their android apps onto the subscription18:10
Stskeepsbut anyway18:10
Stskeepsi'm happy to see brave people18:10
the_mgtit does? wasnt there yet another startup last year with some mintish phone? they were the first ones to invent a pure cloud based os approach(tm)18:10
r0kk3rzStskeeps: yeah good luck to them, they're going to need it18:11
the_mgthttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nextbit/robin-the-smarter-smartphone18:12
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the_mgtthat Solu thing looks way better though18:13
r0kk3rzobviously the whole touchscreen thing is passe, they needed to build in a leapmotion or something for extra scifi18:13
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r0kk3rzlooks like syncthing works out-of-the-box on jolla18:41
r0kk3rzalthough the browser doesnt like the webclient so much, weird graphical errors18:41
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r0kk3rzinotified photo syncing works well, will be great for when the tablet arrives20:24
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kimmolihmm20:34
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r0kk3rzhttp://trobla.com/20:50
r0kk3rzwood is the new black it would seem20:50
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IltsuHi! Any ideas how to update from Sailfish 1.0.0.5 to newer version? Store doesn't work :|21:38
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Nicd-Iltsu: create jolla account, go to settings, upgrade. don't touch anything else21:39
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Iltsualready tried, not working21:41
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IltsuI try factory reset once again and try again21:44
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r0kk3rzIltsu: make sure you add jolla account in the out-of-box setup21:56
r0kk3rzthen upgrade21:56
Iltsuyea, seems to work22:04
Iltsuthanks22:04
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Elleo.22:42
Elleooops22:42
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