#jollamobile log for Thursday, 2015-11-26

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SQUelcherhttp://bildschirmtext.org/image/20151126_001.jpg - my train seems to be _really_ late today...06:01
StskeepsSQUelcher: or you're in a timemachine06:04
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SQUelcherStskeeps: no no, it's absolutely plausible with deutsche bahn...06:04
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Stskeepshttps://lwn.net/Articles/665739/ , linux foundation pulling out is kinda telling.06:36
tortoisedocStskeeps : pulling out from?06:37
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Stskeepstortoisedoc: Software Freedom Conservancy06:37
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entiltoo early in the mearning, what's it telling of? that linux actually doesn't care about freedom of software?06:45
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entilI'd never heard of sfc before, seems like it could be a worthwhile cause06:45
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entilkinda sucks if they have like a third of the supporters they need and the year's practically over06:49
Stskeepsentil: well, linux foundation is anyway a corporate bullshit organisation but.. :)06:49
entilI'm not a super-huge GPL fan all of the time but complying with licenses (like with other agreements) is pretty essential06:51
Stskeepssure06:52
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tortoisedocStskeeps :  ^What makes you think / how do you dare to say that :D06:58
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Stskeepstortoisedoc: years of experience06:58
entilwonder if the retron debacle ever got cleared06:58
tortoisedocEverybody knows the Linux foundation is here for (their) our own good06:59
tortoisedoc:P06:59
Stskeepsoh dear god06:59
Stskeeps:P06:59
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tortoisedocSpeaking of linux06:59
tortoisedocIt seems yocto is pretty advanced06:59
tortoisedocbut its not the same as mer right?07:00
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entilcuz iirc the retroN was supposed to be the way best retro console but it was alleged of abusing gpl code, without contacting the manufacturers, and then nothing was heard07:00
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Stskeepsmeanwhile, http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-11/26/raspberry-pi-zero-launch07:34
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StskeepsThe smallest Raspberry Pi yet might be its biggest: the charitable foundation behind the UK's best-selling computer have launched their latest model, the Raspberry Pi Zero, for the absurd price of just £3.30 ($5).07:35
StskeepsThe miniaturised Zero features a core that is 40 percent faster than the Raspberry Pi 1, with 512MB RAM, a MiniHDMI port and two Micro USB ports, including one for power.07:35
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pp_that is cheap... Tho pre-armv7 is just so painful in many ways :-)07:43
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tortoisedocdiryt deeds07:58
tortoisedocdone dirt cheap07:58
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lainwir3do/08:53
TofeStskeeps: no Ethernet, though08:55
StskeepsTofe: yeah, but ethernet inside was anyway over a usb before..08:56
Tofetrue08:56
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tbrI wonder if their USB is nowadays less horribly broken than before.09:00
TofeI hope so, because everything relies on it: power, network, physical access with keyboard, etc09:01
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TofeI wonder how to debug an issue with an usb-to-ethernet device09:03
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StskeepsTofe: a usb hub09:04
TofeStskeeps: yes, hoping it's not the issue :)09:05
tbrUSB is always an issue and usb-ethernet chips, especially the cheap ones even more so09:07
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TofeThat being said, my rpi 1 still works very well, after 3.5 years of nearly continuous online time09:07
Stskeepsi have more trouble with my ethernet-over-power than my r-pi in that regard too09:09
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* baum just wanted to buy a tablet....oh...well =/09:11
kimmoliTofe: no SD cards corrupted?09:11
Tofekimmoli: not yet!09:12
Stskeepsmeh, in the future, boot your r-pi from ipfs09:12
Stskeeps:P09:12
kimmolii just resurrected one system, now i made backup image09:13
kimmoliStskeeps: ipsfos?09:14
Stskeepshehe09:14
TofeStskeeps: still, you have to take the bootloader from somewhere09:14
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StskeepsTofe: yeah09:14
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inte_hello09:15
Tofe(I read: "yeah -- what a bummer that bootloader thing!")09:15
inte_are there any news about a new jolla phone being developed?09:15
kimmoliTofe: just put a spi flash there...09:15
kimmolinot removable media09:15
inte_my phone is 2years now and its really getting old09:15
kimmolior emmc09:15
inte_i want sth new :)09:16
Yanielanyone familiar with ubifs?09:16
inte_i heard the nexus 5 could run sfos, is it worth a try?09:16
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Tofeinte_: looking at the hybris support matrix, it seems to be one of that has the better support09:27
inte_well yeah09:27
inte_of course id rather have a fully supported phone09:27
inte_to run android apps09:27
inte_isnt the fairphone about to be supported officially?09:28
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TofeI think it's still in discussion09:28
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tbrofficial support has wide reaching implications09:31
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pp_"community"09:32
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pp_ok, after that "full"09:32
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_inte_jolla should rather have developed a jolla2 phone09:34
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_inte_since os-adaption for the tablet was so expensive09:35
Stskeepswasn't a good timing for that tbh, given the roadmaps of different chipset makers09:35
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Stskeepsand remember that getting OS properly scalable to different resolutions also takes effort09:35
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Helleeven with Qt providing most of it already, yeah09:35
_inte_maybe hardware would have cost more for a new phone, but they could have at least used the same os in terms of screens and stuff09:36
Helle(I've used Qt in embedded application with different screen DPIs)09:36
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Stskeeps_inte_: try to sell a qHD display in this day and age..09:36
_inte_well, they could start another crowdfunding for a new phone and use that money to ship the tablet :)09:36
Stskeeps_inte_: yeah, that'll for sure not get us into trouble with the backers.. :)09:36
_inte_hehe09:36
_inte_well, then drop the tablet09:37
Stskeepsalso why there was no announcements at slush, stupid to announce something when you haven't delivered on previous offer09:37
_inte_i have mine already anyways :)09:37
SQUelcher_inte_: aka pyramid scheme? ;)09:37
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_inte_hehe09:37
tbrwhich will put them in the same ballpark as tizen. partly-open source os, zero community, a few devices here and there.09:37
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_inte_no, seriously, i hope jolla finds some financing shortly09:37
tbrbrrrright future, especially if you don't have the deep pockets of samsung to fund such a stunt09:38
_inte_couldnt nokia step in09:38
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_inte_or maybe sony09:38
tbrStskeeps: what? they announced the exit strategy for top management. it's called jolla ventures or such...09:38
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_inte_i have the impression sony is doing sth in terms of oss09:38
_inte_or, maybe microsoft09:39
_inte_they somewhat owe it to the former nokians :)09:39
Stskeepstbr: well, jolla adventures is partly my idea, and it's not an exit strategy, by far09:39
_inte_and, they supported apple back in the old days09:39
_inte_what is jolla adventures?09:39
tbrStskeeps: evil hat comment. you have to admit that it very much looks like it though09:39
Stskeepstbr: yup09:39
_inte_http://jolla-adventures.com/09:40
_inte_??09:40
Stskeepstbr: i even have fancy jolla-adventures business card09:41
Stskeeps:P09:41
tbralso it fits manglement teaching about: if your company goes to hell, you as top management take every advantage you can to "pivot" into a new business to continue in your incompetence. *snerk*09:41
_inte_so, couldnt jolla apply at jolla-adventures to secure financing? :)09:41
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tbrLOL09:41
_inte_tbr: that didnt really worked out for elop, since he was eventually kicked out at m$09:42
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tbr_inte_: depends how you look at it, he got to pocket lots of bonuses at nokia and probably also back at microsoft including a golden parachute09:42
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Stskeepstbr: the real question you should ask yourself what kind of life jolla as a brand would have in case of a sailfish-only company going forward, and how to leverage that the best09:43
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_inte_sure, he can live a relaxed live from now on09:43
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tbrITYM life09:43
StskeepsITYM?09:43
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tbrI think you meant09:44
_inte_but, again, seriously: would it really be that difficult to get some stock android phone, improve the design, put jolla on it and sell it as a jolla2 phone?09:44
Stskeeps_inte_: harder than it should be09:44
tbr_inte_: you just described SbJ09:44
_inte_there are plenty noname device makers in e.g. china, india09:44
_inte_SbJ09:44
_inte_??09:44
tbrjolla109:44
_inte_ah, ok09:44
_inte_well, yeah, jolla1 hardware wasnt the worst09:45
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Stskeepstbr: which is probably the best indication that it came to us all as a shock that a investor pulled out, wasn't supposed to go down this path :P09:45
_inte_just do it again09:45
tbrStskeeps: that's rather obvious, yeah09:45
_inte_which investor pulled out, actually?09:45
Stskeeps_inte_: can't talk about that, sorry09:45
tbrI suspect that's confidential09:45
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tbrbingo09:45
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tbras disclosing this would potentially reflect negatively on the investor09:46
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Stskeeps(and the company)09:46
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_inte_mh09:46
_inte_im only curious09:46
pp_there could be a community effort to choose one mass-market phone out there, make it work as well as possible with community effort, and then find a suitable model for getting the full experience :P09:47
ln-let me guess, even if the name was revealed, no average person would have heard about them anyway.09:47
* pp_ doesn't see that happening09:47
Stskeepspp_: nexus 5 is probably closest09:47
_inte_pp_: isnt that what they do for the fairphone2?09:47
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* _inte_ is interested in the nexus 5 also as it could boot plasmamobile09:48
_inte_curious how that works09:48
pp_already two mentioned and both are a bit pricey :-)09:48
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Yanielfairphone would probably be a good choice because of its ideology09:48
_inte_pp_: i joined late, what did you mention? iphone6?09:48
Stskeepsyeah, fairphone are good guys09:49
pp_moto g price & features would be perfect (haven't investigated technical feasibility at all)09:50
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_inte_i think fairphone would also be nice09:50
_inte_but support should be official09:51
tbrbtw: another thing why prying out the sailfish sources into the open ASAP is important: The phone market is steadily migrating to AArch64 software (hardware has been ARMv8 for a while, but user space is 32bit on most)09:51
_inte_since we need android apps, like quizduell09:51
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trigpointWhy wont the phone let me edit contacts i imported from a vcard?09:51
tbrif you have a pile of binaries, then the only thing you can do is watch them bit-rot into oblivion09:51
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tbr_inte_: official support would entail (by no means complete): paying jolla for OS licensing, paying for aliendalvik licensing, recertifying the whole software stack for: bluetooth, wifi, GSM, UMTS, LTE, USB, ...09:53
Stskeepstbr: or do the ubuntu way and not care about recertification09:53
Stskeepssince it's user installed09:53
_inte_well. then aliendalvik should be available as a (paid) app in the jolla store09:53
tbrStskeeps: but that is then not official09:53
Stskeepstbr: a lot of companies don't totally care :P09:54
_inte_then user could buy it for their homebrew jolla phone :)09:54
tbrStskeeps: sure, until somebody dies (or such)09:54
Stskeepsnod09:54
_inte_do it the ms way09:54
_inte_i dont think ms cerifies their os for any hardware on the market09:55
tbryou don't seem to understand the problem...09:55
pp_common criteria!09:55
pp_do remove the floppy drive first09:55
_inte_and, vice versa, not every hardware distributer is certifying their hardware but only selling it with a matching driver09:55
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_inte_tbr: which problem?09:56
_inte_do it like the linux lsb stuff09:57
_inte_some hardware is certified and will run for sure09:57
_inte_others could work (and does most of the time) but is not (officially) supported09:57
tbr_inte_: that there is more than one certification and that some are really hard requirements unless of course you are outside of any jurisdiction and can afford to discard your company and start a new one when it gets smashed by fines, lawsuits, import bans, etc09:58
_inte_i thought that was only the case when shipping stuff to the us09:58
tbrthe fact that you can do something does by no means whatsoever entail that it is legal09:58
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tbrmwahahahaha09:58
_inte_well, im not in the us, so just dont ship there09:59
tbrmoaning M-bobsummerwill09:59
tbr_inte_: same thing in europe09:59
_inte_i can hardly imaging every noname china android rubbish phone ran through all those certification processes09:59
_inte_they are available for sale in europe though10:00
_inte_so what do they do different?10:00
tbr"unless of course you are outside of any jurisdiction and can afford to discard your company  and start a new one when it gets smashed by fines, lawsuits, import bans, etc10:00
tbr"10:00
tbrif you want to build a reputation and business relations, then such a strategy is not going to work in your favor, at all10:01
_inte_well, then jolla should maybe talk to one of those noname companies10:01
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Stskeepsnot to mention the ton of different products and ids, that are obsolete within a few months10:01
_inte_tbr i wouldnt mind10:01
Stskeepsand well, you don't ban whole product lines, you ban certain products10:01
_inte_all companies which are big nowadays started that way10:02
Stskeeps(from certification pov)10:02
_inte_remember the first HTC phones?10:02
Stskeepsproduct lines = brands, i mean10:02
Hellethe USA is just out for anything with a radio that isn't either a huge product or "for experimental use only"10:02
* tbr envisions the tech news "jolla partners with chinese trash phone businesses, phones smacked with fines and import bans around the globe"10:02
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tbrgrrrrrreat way to ensure the next funding round goes super smoooooooth for jolla10:02
_inte_werend they running windows10:02
HelleFCC validation is insanely expensive even for things without a radio (I'm friends with some of the people who worked on the original BeBox)10:02
Stskeepstbr: xiaomi is valued at 45 billon USD ;)10:03
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tbrStskeeps: I suspect they do certification though...10:03
tbreven if it's the chinese version10:03
Stskeepstbr: http://betanews.com/2014/12/11/xiaomi-infringes-ericsson-patents-in-india-local-court-bans-sales-until-february-2015/10:03
tbrpatents, whole different story10:03
Stskeepsyeah, true10:03
_inte_jolla should just be open to anyone wanting to license their os10:04
tbrsee nokia vs apple vs samsung vs everyone else10:04
Stskeepsbut certification is basically a sham these days.. they test things that have absolutely no relation to the factual function of the device10:04
_inte_and if it is a small brand which doesnt care about regulations, be it so10:04
tbrsure, but it's a legal requirement10:04
_inte_as long as they put sfos on their phone10:04
_inte_tbr well its their problem not jollas problem then10:04
tbrit is jollas problem if sailfish gets lots of bad press10:05
_inte_better they get bad press than no press10:05
tbrgoogle does android certification (oh look there's the word again!) for a reason10:05
_inte_windows was getting a lot of bad press all the time but its still the market leader10:05
Stskeepsi've seen CE certification that was essentially about sending the letter 'H' to the screen, modem, printer ..10:05
Stskeeps:P10:05
tbrdespite the saying, it doesn't always work that way10:05
_inte_as long as the phone works the customers really dont care about certifications10:06
_inte_just as much as for "fair trade", in terms that prices are as "fair" that the customer can afford them :)10:06
tbroperating an unlicensed transceiver can entail severe fines and in some jurisdictions even jail10:06
_inte_well but not for jolla10:07
_inte_only for the device manufacturer10:07
_inte_the noname brand10:07
tbr_inte_: you should really try some of the stuff you are proposing10:07
_inte_and i barley can imaging all the cheap noname jolla phones available on ebay have unlicensed transceivers10:07
tbr"20 persons using jolla phones fined 20k€ each and sentenced to community service! All jolla phones now illegal in europe"10:08
_inte_tbr: currently doing my ham license, so i *could* also use an unlicensed transceiver shortly :)10:08
_inte_haha10:08
kimmoliwrong band10:08
_inte_kimmoli: true, of course :)10:08
_inte_kimmoli: should switch that to hamnet then :)10:09
tbr_inte_: then you should really try transmitting on e.g. the airport approach frequency some time, for let's say a day. You'll really enjoy the effects of being "allowed" to operate unlicensed transmitters.10:09
_inte_tbr: ive never heard of anyone being fined for using a noname phone from china10:09
_inte_tbr: depends on the frequency, as kimmoli pointed out10:10
tbrtl;dr - you're full of shit and I'm getting tired of it. I call EOD and hereby state that I fundamentally disagree with ALL of your points.10:10
tbr_inte_: phones don't operate in any amateur radio bands. q.e.d. EOD10:10
_inte_hu, thats a bit harsh10:10
_inte_tbr: yes i know10:11
_inte_except for DMR10:11
_inte_*duck*10:11
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lpotterwell now. that went well.10:21
_inte_http://dmrassociation.org/10:24
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lukedirtwalkerSfietKonstantinW: is there a way to manage columns in twablet on phone (v 0.6.1)?10:28
SfietKonstantinWlukedirtwalker: update to latest OBS10:29
lukedirtwalkerSfietKonstantinW: ok thanks10:29
SfietKonstantinWlukedirtwalker: and then, push-up menu, settings10:29
SfietKonstantinWyou can move / edit columns here10:29
SfietKonstantinWand remove in the edit page10:29
lukedirtwalkerthanks10:30
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M4rtinKoh, haven't noticed the preview packages om OBS till now10:31
M4rtinKnice :)10:32
SfietKonstantinWoh10:32
SfietKonstantinWyou can MOVE columns now :)10:32
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lukedirtwalkeranyone care to share a link to obs repo? :P10:33
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lukedirtwalkeroh nevermind found it :P10:36
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dr_gogeta86_good morning11:21
dr_gogeta86_tbr, you can be fined also to sell those devices11:21
dr_gogeta86_and if they are intercepted at custom ( al least for italy )11:21
dr_gogeta86_*at11:21
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tbrdr_gogeta86_: yes, I know that very well. It's just _inte_ going all *lalalalala* and trying to ignore the cognitive dissonance and trying to force his view.11:24
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ggabriel"intercepted at customs"? so you can't bring a foreign phone to .it?11:30
Stskeepsif it's a whole crate, it's hard to claim it's your personal phone11:30
Stskeepswe very often have customs papers along if we bring too many11:30
ggabrieloh, ok, _that_ case11:30
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tortoisedocStskeeps : backup phones?11:30
tortoisedoc"No sir, they are all mines. Yes, sir, I plan to use them all eventually"11:31
Stskeepstortoisedoc: well, as an example, we want to ship some prototypes by hand carrying11:31
Stskeeps=> sometimes faster11:31
ggabriel"I alwasy carry 3 phones: work, home, wife"11:31
ggabrielany .it will understand ;)11:31
tortoisedocsome prototipes is probably way less than  a bunch of them?11:31
tortoisedoclol11:31
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Stskeepsyou should see when we go to MWC.11:32
Stskeeps:P11:32
Stskeepsa buuunch.11:32
tortoisedocyou gave jolla's out for free @ mwc? ;_;11:32
Stskeepsno11:32
ggabrielwell, I met some Jolla and community people in London and the phone per person ratio was astonishing11:32
Stskeepsbut we had a fuckload of tablets along11:32
tortoisedoc;_;11:32
ggabrielsome peeps just happen to carry 6 phones, not counting tablets11:33
tortoisedocwhat did you do with them?11:33
Stskeepstook them home again11:33
tortoisedocwhyyyyy:D11:33
tortoisedocah but that means you still have them there?11:33
* tortoisedoc happy with any dev tablet as well11:33
Stskeepsyeah but they're not fcc/ce approved11:33
Stskeepsso can't sell11:33
* ggabriel fcc11:34
*** ggabriel is now known as fcc11:34
fccI hereby approve11:34
*** fcc is now known as ggabriel11:34
ggabrielthere, done11:34
* tortoisedoc hifive ggabriel11:34
tortoisedocnow where's our tablets :P11:34
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ggabrielon another subject, I'm quite happy with my new jolla without the cracked screen11:35
ggabrielI hope it lasts uncracked for a lot longer thant he other one11:35
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_inte_sorry11:38
greenithi, i have a data rate for my phone where 1 GB is included and I have to pay if I am above 1 GB. I've seen that there is the info on how much I've downloaded / uploaded, but is there a way to set a monthly limit? for example to allow a maximum of 1GB up/download from November 10th to December 10th, then it resets and I can download 1 GB again from December 10th to Jan 10th?11:39
tortoisedocStskeeps : do you think jolla store might get more jolla phones?11:40
Stskeepstortoisedoc: i don't have visibility on that at this moment11:40
tortoisedocdamn :/11:40
tortoisedocoh well there's always tori.fi :P11:40
ggabrielgreenit: not on sfos, no, and I haven't seen that feature on any phone for that matter11:43
ggabrieljust check your usage regularly?11:43
greenitggabriel: i had such a feature on my old android phone (wiko darknight), so yes, such a feature exists ;)11:44
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tortoisedocStskeeps is the money that is missing for the tablets pertaining the shipping costs or purchasing the hw?11:58
Stskeepstortoisedoc: dunno11:58
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* Stskeeps hums along to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8715uPbwXA11:59
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ggabrielgreenit: my android phone doesn't have that - if you refer to a 3rd party application, I wonder if the measurement is correct12:02
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_inte_i think i saw sth like that but i might be wrong. Maybe on Symbian?12:06
ggabrielI don't recall it on symbian either, but my latest symbian was the awesome 580012:07
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mikehgentryI seem to remember it being on certain Android spins, but not stock Android. And even if it's integrated into the system at quite a low level, it was never 100% accurate in the sense of agreeing with the carrier's limit, since they often have funny ideas about what counts against your allowance.12:08
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ggabrielcarrier normally measures bytes at 10 bits :P12:09
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mikehgentryI think they sometimes ignore communication with their own servers as well. And I swear I read something about one of the big companies making some video streaming services 'free' recently too - didn't pay much attention, since it was US.12:10
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greenitwell, at least i am not the only one missing this feature: https://together.jolla.com/question/559/mobile-data-improvements/ ;)13:01
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Nicd-hey tbr, I found a new car for you: http://defence-blog.com/army/finland-company-showcase-new-pmpv-misu-6x6-armored-vehicle.html14:54
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cehtehgermans police new uniforms got introduced today, no joke:  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUmLoj1WwAEwpfO.jpg:orig14:57
ggabrielhorrible helmet14:58
Nicd-they look like http://screeninvasion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/spaceballs-darkhelmet.jpeg14:58
ggabrielNicd-: lol, but will bluetooth work with jolla?14:58
Nicd-what?14:59
cehtehhttp://www.stern.de/panorama/gesellschaft/polizei-bayern-wie-star-wars-parodie--polizisten-aehneln-lord-helmchen-6573900.html14:59
ggabrielNicd-: bluetooth in the armoured vehicle14:59
Nicd-oh14:59
HtheBcoderus: what is the activation for on powermenu2?15:01
HtheBextra features?15:01
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coderusHtheB: nothing15:05
tbrNicd-: cute, a bit heavy though, due to all that armour, which would be seldomly needed as I only rarely drive downtown ;)15:06
Nicd-tbr: it would be a plus in Hervanta though15:06
tbrNicd-: point taken. especially before wappu15:07
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* pavi wonders if anyone who is currently employed at Jolla is on Diaspora* ?16:49
pdanekWhy people are leaving already? Like cybette?16:49
pdanekI thought layoffs will start in December.16:49
pavipdanek: cybette is no more in Jolla . :(16:50
M4rtinKpavi: iirc cybette is on Diaspora16:50
pdanekpavi: I know, that's why I asked16:50
Nicd-pdanek: for personal reasons. if you had some other job (or financial security), would you stick around for layoffs?16:50
pdanekoh, so she wasn't fired, she left sooner16:50
Nicd-M4rtinK: cybette is not employed at Jolla anymore16:50
pdanekall clear16:50
pavipdanek: yeah she left by her choice, she would be contributing for sailfishos infact she is still answering questions at TJC https://diasp.eu/posts/374479016:51
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pavi^^ That was her good bye post16:52
pdanekyep I saw it16:52
pdanekI just didn't know she left by choice16:52
pdanekI didn't read the whole post16:52
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pdanekI don't know.16:52
pdanekIf we stick around Sailfish.16:52
pdanekWhat are the chances that the OS will still become the greatest and best?16:53
pdanekAnd compete with Android?16:53
pavicybette: 's last sentence on a commentt ": I’m jumping into the lifeboat for now to reduce baggage on the Jolla boat. Who knows what will happen. Maybe I’ll be back on Jolla, or I find another boat to sail with, or I swim to shore. However in the lifeboat we can still keep fishing (support Sailfish OS) so let’s not lose hope :)"16:53
pdanekoh, I see16:53
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pdanekJolla was already small fish on market fighting really hard to be seen and to catch with other OSes.16:54
pdanekNow,... is there even chance anymore?16:54
pdanekIf it is, delayed by another 1 year?16:54
pdanekIt will take long time to hire the talent back.16:54
paviI think there is still chance . I am waiting for Intex release16:54
M4rtinKfrankly I'm slowly getting a maritime methaphor poisoning by now ;-)16:54
pdanekEven with fundings and money, they would need to hire new people.16:54
paviMaybe the old sailors will come back to the boat ?16:55
jaacoppiapple computers eas almost dead in the 90s so I guess Jolla still has a chance as well16:55
tigelijaacoppi: well, apple got money from ms16:56
tigeliI don't see that happening now16:56
paviAnd yes we could compare with apple. Jolla has its strengths in standing out from the crowd.16:56
Stskeepsnot to mention android inc almost going bankrupt16:56
Stskeepsit seems to be a rite for any oS16:56
StskeepsOS16:56
Stskeeps:P16:56
paviStskeeps: Any idea who is the new community incharge ? Will he/she be on Diaspora* ?16:58
Stskeepspavi: no clue atm16:58
paviok maybe we all need to wait till the dust settles down.16:58
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cybettepavi: i left all social media channel access info to our head of comms, although i doubt he has time to post on diaspora much less respond to comments. atm afaik there's no "community in charge"17:00
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pavicybette: is "head of comms" the same person who makes a blog post once a month "officially" ? :(17:01
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cybettepavi: if you're referring to juhani lassila, yes17:02
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paviThe good news is that I have seen Juhani lassila reply to some comments on blog. It maybe less communication from now. Hope he joins Diaspora* after christmas!17:05
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pdanek2Android inc going bankrupt? what?17:07
tigelipdanek2: many years ago17:07
tigelimany many..17:07
ggabrielsadly, they didn't17:07
ggabrielsadly, neither did apple :P17:08
tigelihard to say what would be the alternative now17:08
tigelis60? ;)17:08
ggabrielthat'd be awesome17:08
M4rtinK_phone_just don't say "community manager"17:08
M4rtinK_phone_some people are understandably touchy about it :)17:09
M4rtinK_phone_"community contact/coordinator/representative" is IMHO better17:10
jaacoppimaster of community17:11
Stskeepscommunity tamer?17:11
PeperJohnnyHead of community17:11
ggabrielcommunity whisperer17:12
tbrcomunity ignorer and pr bullhorn17:12
M4rtinK_phone_community herder ? ;-)17:12
paviCmonnunity communicator ?17:13
M4rtinK_phone_community liaison17:13
tbrmy *personal* opinion is that the title _and_ behaviour should make clear that it's about seeing eye to eye and working together. Terms like 'liaison' come to mind17:14
M4rtinK_phone_exactly17:14
M4rtinK_phone_you cant manage community17:14
tbrneither should you try to herd it nor influence it17:15
pdanek2what are the chances that intex will buy jolla?17:15
paviSpeaking of community look at the packed room at FOSDEM15 , https://sailfishos.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/d-greaves-fosdem15.jpg Makes me so nostalgic and damn it has not even been 1 year. :(17:16
Stskeepstbr: community manipulator?17:16
Stskeeps:P17:16
tbrStskeeps: that's very often the actual mission17:17
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tbrpavi: yeah, that makes me nostalgic, they day I dropped 99% of my sailfish community involvement. :(17:17
Stskeepspavi: let's see if i can actually afford going this year17:17
Stskeepser, next year17:17
pdanek2tbr: why did u drop?17:18
* tbr has always found a way to do fosdem, even on a total shoestring17:18
tbrpdanek2: I will NOT go there, for the benefit of my sanity and the atmosphere/mood in here.17:18
paviStskeeps: I actually got your visiting card from Jolla dinner , it says "Chief Research Engineer" !17:18
tbrlet's just say that I don't feel welcome17:18
Stskeepspavi: yeah.. a lot of business cards to throw out nw17:19
Stskeeps+o17:19
pdanek2tbr: when is it? next fosdem?17:19
tbrend of january, as usual17:19
paviStskeeps: you might not remember me I asked in the last moment about Jolla tablet having community os booting without libhybris and android drivers.17:19
Stskeepspavi: i don't, but should be possible, with a lot of hard work, for the few people that has it.17:20
tbrStskeeps: while doing ELCE or similar "big boy" commercial conference, shoestringing fosdem is easy.17:20
pdanek2Stskeeps: is miracle still possible? jolla mentioned that funding was just delayed, so major investor can fund 10m in December right?17:20
pdanek2and after that all employees could be rehired17:20
* tbr shared a room with MMx a few times17:20
Stskeepstbr: yeah i know17:20
tbrand no attendance fee17:20
Stskeepsi've shared room with somebody at fosdem before17:20
tbralso non-stop reasonable flight17:20
Stskeepsthe year i got totally sick17:20
tbrpdanek2: technically nobody needs to be rehired. their leave ends and they are recalled to work. some might have found other employment by then though.17:21
Stskeepsor have resigned17:21
tbror that, yeah17:22
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pavi2015 was my first FOSDEM , I was lucky to get into a hospitality hosting from a community member , who turned out to be a debian guy. I could also attend Jolla dinner \0/17:22
tbrthough I'm not sure what the terms for resigning during YT are17:22
pdanek2what are the chances to get the 20M funding in December?17:22
pdanek210M17:22
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pdanek250%?17:25
Stskeepspdanek2: throw a coin17:25
tbrI don't think anyone here knows17:25
pavipdanek: There are no Jolla business/sale guys here to speculate.17:26
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pp_tbr: if there's a "lomautus" you can pretty much leave at will17:27
tbrk17:27
pp_week or two of notice, tops17:27
pavipdanek: you might be interested in writing a lettor to the investor . There was a thread on it but nobody actually wrote the letter. They are just commenting on it. https://together.jolla.com/question/122870/write-an-open-letter-to-the-investor/17:29
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pdanek2pavi: that wouldn't be best idea if I'm composing the letter :P17:32
phlixi_oactually i am quite pessimistic (as usual regarding everything) that such letter would acomplish anything at all17:40
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phlixi_othe investor cares about money, obviously the userbase does not generate enough money, thus the investor has no interest in anything the userbase wants to write.17:42
paviphlixi_o: maybe the first investor is not convinced, if there is a nice letter drafted by the community on a wiki style post. We could email it to some comoany folks to attract "big cash" ?17:42
cehtehwhy should it?17:42
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cehtehi mean when you pull out 10M from some project, you dont do that on a whim17:42
cehtehi doubt anything or anyone can convince an investor to revert that17:42
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pavi*company folks - business folks . Draft the letter to be business attractive. Showing him/her where the ROI - Return on Investment is17:43
cehtehyou think they doesnt evaluate that carefully *before* investing into the project?17:43
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paviAtleast attract them , there is just too much cash lying around in the developed world. The economy is on a down.17:44
cehtehthats not how investment works, its not about burning stockpiles of cash, its about multiplying it17:45
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cehtehthey dont invest because they have too much money, but because they hoped for a profit to get even more money17:46
phlixi_oon the other hand, at least in theory it could be an escalated powergame between jolla and investor. but that seems not very realistic to me, i think the damage done already probably would be to high17:48
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pavicehteh: the same argument is given to justify austerity. Invest less , cut down costs. Unless someone invests the economy wont boom. Unless someone invests in Jolla which is cutting down costs Jolla wont grow.17:49
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phlixi_othe actual situation causes a lot of damage to jolla, thus i doubt the investor would do that without knowing exactly that this has to be done (from the investors point of view, which most likely means: stop burning money). thus i am pretty sure it is a waste of time to write a letter...17:51
cehtehwhatever .. it is as it is. jolla needs money, but i doubt that the 'old' investor would revert his decision to pull out, maybe with a new plan he may invest into a new model, but more likely someone else thinks investment into jolla is benefitful for him17:51
cehteh.. which also needs jolla to readjust its goals17:51
phlixi_owell, expect in the power game theory :-)17:51
phlixi_oexcept*17:51
cehtehno one knows who this investor is?17:52
pdanek2if Jolla company costs investor more than 1m / month, Intex would need to sell A LOT of phones to at least pay back monthly investments, not speaking about multiplying it or paying back last 3-4 years. at this stage Jolla should have been doing profit already17:52
phlixi_oit doesnt matter17:52
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pdanek2investor probably doesn't want public to know, community and media could make a bad image of him, as killed Jolla etc...17:54
Stskeepsprobably not a good idea to interfere with jolla's investors :)17:55
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pavipdanek2: being an Indian who has a kind of idea about tech market. Intex wont be able to sell too many devices to make a difference unless something exceptional is done. And with launch postponed. Every month a new cheap phone is being released an Indian gets a smartphone and wouldnt need a second one17:55
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pdanek2in news: naked drunk group of fins with Jolla in their hand put offices of XXX company on fire17:57
Stskeepspavi: intex is #1 in india, by now, though17:57
* pavi gets a call from his grandmother saying every kid in the village already has a smart phone .17:57
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paviStskeeps: Micromax is the #1 . Everyone is crazy about brand names , the poor guy would go for micromax or intex. But its always a 2nd choice after Samsung, iphone etc17:58
Stskeepspavi: i think it changed recently :)17:58
pdanek2pavi: I have many Indian colleagues myself and most of them don't trust Micromax, Intex, etc... techies have money and buy Samsung, iPhone etc.17:58
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cehtehi saied already, too sad that Redhat has no ambitions to enter the mobile market .. would be nicer when someone with a background in free software invests into jolla17:59
pavipdanek2: agree. They wont buy micromax or intex , they are tier 2 providers17:59
Stskeepspavi: http://telecom.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/devices/intex-micromax-claim-second-spot-in-handset-market/49891540 , albeit, indian vendor17:59
pdanek2even micromax is considered as cheap unreliable, that's why they sell micromax cyanogenmod premium phones under brand Yu18:00
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paviStskeeps: Intex sold a hell lot of feature phones. Infact a colleague of my dad was just buying intex firefox os phone for 2k (25 euro) because it was cheap and it has a browser + wifi.18:01
Stskeepspavi: sure, i have one18:01
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paviStskeeps: in the linl you pasted "He also claimed that Micromax's share in the smartphone segment is almost double of the next player, but conceded that there is strong competition. " . So micromax leads intex by twice the sales in smartphone segment which is where Sailfish os fits in.18:04
pdanekIndia is big and powerful, but poor people are many (I was in India this month btw), so most of Micromax and Intex phones sold are really cheap phones.18:04
pdanekSo the smartphones that Micromax and Intex sells most would be cheaper Mediatek ones.18:05
pdanekJolla with Qualcomm can't compete with price.18:05
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pdanekAnd people who buy Micromax and Intex phones in India are not the type of people who will appreciate "unlike", "gestures" or "true Linux!".18:05
pavipdanek2: I only hope the aquafish phones come below 10,000 INR . If they go above the 10K barrier its hard toexpect any sales.18:05
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pavipdanek you are right about " not caring about linux" but gestures will attract the tech crowd18:06
paviThey are looking for something special on their phone which they can show off to the colleague.18:07
pdanektech crowds yam but tech crowd will hesitate about buying Intex brand, wouldn't they?18:07
pdanekone of my Indian colleagues told me: only lower caste buys Micromax/Intex18:07
pavipdanek if the best comes from Intex and they have no choice and if its affordable they will consider it.18:07
pdanekso showing Intex to your colleagues might be negative in some places?18:07
pdanekright18:07
pavipdanek yes showing intex would be a low point for sure in the caste/class equation but things are changing , many samsung phones are breaking down.18:08
pdanekpavi: Yu Yutopia might break the rules :)18:09
paviThe difference of durability from brands is decreasing , so people are buying micromax.18:09
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paviThe only scary / deciding factor for sailfish os on Intex is the "pricing wrt features" . If you can get better camera or more cores for less price people wont buy aquafish for sure unless if the above mentioned tech crowd is interested.18:12
cehtehi wonder if there would be a cheap upgrade to the phone without a complete redesign18:15
cehtehnew SoC and done18:15
paviOne attractive point where sailfishos can shine is the localisation support. India has 15 official languages. If atleast 5 big languages are completely translated with keyboards available by default in sailfishos then it can sell.18:16
pavihttps://openrepos.net/content/abyzthomas/indian-language-fonts-sailfish and keyboards ? Stskeeps are the latest versions shipping with Indian keyboards enabled?18:17
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pavicehteh: new SoC like in Neo900 project ?18:20
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cehtehneo900 is way more18:24
cehtehlots new hardware capabilities18:25
cehtehthats a complete redesign18:25
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pavicehteh: if someone can dig a hole on J1 and replace the camera for minimal cost, I would take it.18:29
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cehtehis the problem the camera or the software/firmware thereof?18:30
cehtehon the n900 the camera sat on a socket, it would be replaceable, i just dont know if other compatible ones exsist18:31
cehtehwhile this cameras do a shitload of corrections in firmware. bad image quality may be only a software problem18:31
pavicehteh: cameraplus is a decent enough software for me. I dunno if the firmware is bad or not ?18:32
cehtehi havent use the camera on my phone yet18:32
M-bobsummerwilltbr:  Very belated moaning to you too!18:33
tbr:)18:33
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pavicehteh: J1 camera on daylight is kind of ok . when it gets cloudy , not even dark the pictures are very grainy. I think its the weak sensor problem rather than a softwares ?18:36
cehtehi cant say, but almost any mobile camera has that problem and corrects it more or less in firmware18:38
cehtehin fact, a camera which stays more honest and gives out the noise would offer better opportunities to correct it later18:39
cehtehIFF thats the case18:39
cehtehmaybe the sensor is just poor18:39
pavicehteh: I guess in the case of firmware improvements on a captured picture Apple is the king. I love the pictures taken by an iphone 3G version when compared to newer jolla phone .18:40
cehtehas well the automatic selection of exposure vs gain might be just badly trimmed18:40
cehtehyou never see what the camera takes18:41
cehtehits always processed by some firmware and stuff18:41
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pavicehteh: I posted a question on TJC giving my feedback on camera long back https://together.jolla.com/question/74691/avoid-red-eye-with-flash/18:44
cehtehsounds mostly like software problems18:46
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cehtehpoor resolution  can be poor optics, anyway this single lens optics with few mm focal length are lousy .. always18:46
cehtehno mobile phone camera optics can resovle the resolution the actual sensor has18:47
cehtehredeyes are iirc removed in software (with assisting of pre-flash)18:48
pavicehteh: do you think installing an android camera app would give better / different pictures?18:48
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cehtehautofocus works by contrast, works only with enough light, if it doesnt work on the first pic then the software does it wrong (maybe it should illuminate the scene with the LED) or conditions are really poor18:49
cehtehblurring  take care your lens is clean18:49
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anonfriesedamn, you guys bring back memorys, old nokia phone, irda and my trusty palm vx :)19:58
anonfrieselater i had a tungsten and one of the first phones with bluetooth from ericsson, damn, was i modern :)19:59
anonfrieseand then came the treo, webos, a short android-time, n900, n9 and then were at today and my jolla (which also has been a few years with me already, come to think of it....)20:00
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Stskeepsevening TMavica20:18
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phlixihi20:50
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phlixisome webpages look wrong on the jolla20:51
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phlixiis there something like greasemonkey or the like i could use to fix that?20:52
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pdanek1Have you guys seen the new Xiaomi Redmi Note 3?21:08
pdanek1How can they make such phones so cheaply!21:08
pdanek1And Xiaomi has really top quality.21:08
pdanek1Colleague of mine has it, really polished, works like a charm.21:09
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Stskeepsvolume21:09
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r0kk3rzi like how the irc silica app has a mix between old and new style pulley menu graphics21:34
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HtheB_r0kk3rz: yeah21:43
HtheB_I still like the old style21:43
HtheB_they are better visible21:43
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r0kk3rzit kinda fits with the diffused background style more21:44
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cehtehwow this irc client is nice, just connected it to my znc :)21:46
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pdanek1Anyone else here watches Bob Ross instead of lulaby to fall a sleep?22:39
Stskeepswhat?22:39
Stskeeps:P22:39
pdanek1:D22:39
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pdanek1https://www.youtube.com/user/BobRossInc22:40
pdanek1What better place to live, UK or Germany?22:43
pdanek1deciding between 2 contracts22:43
pdanek1specifically, Northamption, or Edring (near Munich)?22:44
pdanek1Northampton*22:44
M4rtinK2Munich is cool :)22:45
M4rtinK2no idea about that UK town22:45
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stephgpdanek1: vgrade isn't far from northampton22:47
stephgI know lots of people from there22:47
stephgis about an hour from London on the train22:47
stephganyway time for sleep22:49
stephgniiight22:49
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pdanek1hmm22:57
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pdanek1Bob Ross is best for stressed people23:09
pdanek1when you had shitty day and you wanna calm down, lie down in bed and watch/listen Bob Ross23:10
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phlixiso pdanek1 if you like bobross thats a pro for munic23:18
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phlixibr (the local television for bavaria) used to transmit bob ross in the night23:19
phlixi...and "spacenight"23:19
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phlixion the other hand, uk got bbc, i heard they have nice stuff to :)23:20
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pdanek1phlixi: I don't do TV, internet TV or streams or torrent or youtube...23:28
pdanek1I mean, I do the latter ones..... just not TV :D23:28
phlixiyou asked for pros and cons, and munic got bob ross in the tv for, idk, maybe like 20 years23:28
phlixii fall asleep to bob ross before it was cool :)23:29
pdanek1nice23:30
pdanek1Are people in Bavaria open?23:30
phlixiand technically i have a tv (actually a pretty big one^^) but i only watch 3 channels...23:30
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phlixi...amazon prime, youtube and netflix :-)23:30
pdanek1friend of mine is in Nurermberg and he says it's very difficult to make friends in workplace23:31
pdanek1even after 1 year working there23:31
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phlixiI was born in Nürnberg and live here almost all of my life, thus i am not qualified to judge about bavarian openess...23:32
phlixi(about 90%)23:32
pdanek1yep, Nürnberg I meant23:32
pdanek1he is in Nürnberg23:32
pdanek1and he complains about people in his workplace23:33
pdanek1very difficult to make friends23:33
pdanek1when he is foreigner23:33
pdanek1and he is very open and talkative person23:33
phlixii am keen to say thats the fault og the company23:33
pdanek1right23:33
phlixi...or the friend23:33
phlixibut he latter isnt the reason you say :-)23:33
pdanek1I worked with him23:34
pdanek1he isn't23:34
phlixican you tell the company?23:34
pdanek1Adidas23:35
pdanek1they're not directly in Nurnberg23:35
phlixierlang/höchstadt23:35
pdanek1perhaps23:35
phlixior "ERH"23:35
pdanek1they live in Nurnberg though23:36
phlixii know one guy doing stuff for Neo23:36
phlixior actually its the husband of a good friend... he is nice :-)23:36
pdanek1hmmm23:37
pdanek1Neo = Neo900?23:37
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phlixia brand of adidas :D23:37
pdanek1ah :D23:37
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phlixismall world...^^23:38
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