#jollamobile log for Sunday, 2015-11-29

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Stskeepsmorn07:53
tbrmeh-ning07:54
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locusfmorning08:51
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TMavicaWill Jolla HK office move too?15:18
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Stskeepswhy?15:33
Stskeepsit moved 2 times already :)15:33
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fenris_kcfgreetings. i'd like to order a Jolla Phone, but it seems the payment methods are quite restricted. i don't own a credit card and i'm not willing to have a PayPal-account :/ is there any other way (i think "Finnish Online Banking (Paytrail)" ain't no option for me either)?15:49
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deztructorfenris_kcf: paytrail is also supported in the jolla web shop15:58
fenris_kcfdeztructor: is that available outside Finnland?15:58
sharpnelifenris_kcf: What other options there even are than paypal and credit card and bank transfer?16:02
deztructorfenris_kcf: dunno, at least, you can try, also iirc paypal supports one time payments from a (also debit?) card w/o registration. If you do not have a card which way of payment could be also used?16:02
cehtehfenris_kcf: i got one (second) delivered last week which i intend to send back (but jolla has currently struggles to manage the return) .. where in germany are you? i could send you this device16:02
sharpnelifenris_kcf: Send cash via mail?16:02
cehteh(unopened original package)16:03
fenris_kcfsharpneli: i would make a regular transfer or use paysafecard16:03
fenris_kcfcehteh: hmm, that doesn't sound like the option i should prefer16:03
sharpneliYou can iirc transfer money to paypal via SWIFT16:03
cehtehfenris_kcf: why not?16:04
fenris_kcfwould you do such a deal? somebody on IRC you don't know offers you to send the phone to you?16:04
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tbrpeople order stuff on ebay...16:05
tbror from china16:05
fenris_kcfwell, not me16:05
cehtehwell i would argree on some safe method with you, and i tinhk some trustworthy people here know me. you are in germany? i use see your t-ipconnect domain so i guessd16:06
fenris_kcfi'm in west saxony, yes16:06
deztructorfenris_kcf: try to choose paytrail option, they support several different payment methods16:06
cehtehi could as jolla support to treat you as original customer, would save them some troubles to arrange the return16:06
cehtehi am in karlsruhe :)16:07
pbrunierI would think twice before buying one. With the current trouble at Jolla, you don't know if the harbour store will stay open for the next 4 years.16:07
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fenris_kcfpbrunier: i was thinking about that too16:07
fenris_kcfbut i also think now is the time to support them more than ever16:08
cehtehfenris_kcf: if you reconsider query me .. and i cant make much of a deal out of it, would be my loss as well, i can tell you the story why i got 2 devices in the query16:08
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cehtehwell and they need 10mio Eur .. how much profit do they do per device, i think 30Eur at most, that would mean they have to sell a shitload of devices in december16:10
fenris_kcfso you suggest to wait until next year?16:10
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cehtehheh .. i'd like if you buy mine .. and i am also buyed one (the other one i use) recently16:11
cehtehwell before the problems over there where known16:11
cehtehgot it 2 weeks ago16:11
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cehtehi quite like it, much more than android16:12
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tbrcehteh: they are nowhere near turning profit, so device sales are not /that/ important in this calculation.16:12
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cehtehtbr: unfortunally16:12
Stskeepsyeah.. remember that nobody takes you seriously as a OS until you actually ship devices and have it approved by mobile vendors, sales channels, and users16:12
Stskeepsand taking risk on OS is something that usually burns brands16:13
tbrwhat the investors bought into is the business plan, which involves licensing out the OS16:13
cehtehi know16:13
tbrStskeeps: what you mean WindowsPhone wasn't a great choice for the Nokia brand? *snerk* *snerk*16:13
fenris_kcfyeah, that was such a surprize ... not16:14
cehtehwould be nicer if they had a sustainable plan on their own devices, if even barely sustainable16:14
cehtehbut well i wouldnt have buyed the device for 400Eur16:14
Stskeepscehteh: really hard to be sustainable for SW development16:14
tbrcehteh: that was never realistic16:14
Stskeepsthe margins are really small today16:14
cehtehStskeeps: i know iknow16:14
Stskeepstbr: it might actually have been somewhat realistic without the OS part16:14
Stskeepstbr: this was a time when oneplus and so on hadn't emerged on the scene16:15
tbrStskeeps: sure, if you buy devices with the default android image from your ODM16:15
tbrwhite-label business, still tiny margins and cut throat16:15
cehtehif i had an solution idea which really solves the problems i wouldnt be here :D ... but still i am not very fond of the original plan about licensing an OS mostly build upon free software either16:16
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tbrcehteh: it works for android (though google pulls in the money through a different channel)16:16
Stskeepstbr: yeah16:17
tbreven symbian was open source at some point... :->16:17
tbrthe fact that a product contains a significant amount of open source software does not preclude making a profit from it16:18
tbrsee also RHEL, SLE, etc16:19
cehtehnah i dont say that16:19
cehtehthats ok16:19
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cehtehwhat would SFOS cost if users would license it? dunno how much phones are sold and how much the development (tablet/research aside, only phone here) costed16:21
cehtehi could imagine to pay a bit for updates and i guess a lot people can do that, as long its reasonable and there are some support gurantees16:22
tbrpricing something as a consumer product is hard16:22
Stskeepscehteh: the problem is that the mobile market isn't exactly such that people go out and can buy a mobile OS in the shop like buying windows for your PC..16:22
cehtehbut i dont know either if that works or would turn out reasonable16:22
cehtehwell jolla could have changed that, they shown sfos on other devices16:23
Stskeepsnot to mention that effectively you don't pay for android, or even windows16:23
Stskeepsin mobile devices16:23
cehtehyeah16:23
Stskeepscehteh: sure, and there's a sizeable porters community16:24
cehtehbut when i ask around people *would* pay for it if they had the option and the OS has some benefit over the others, even if its just free and cool16:24
cehtehof course you cant expect $200 or so like a windows license16:24
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cehtehi have absolutely no idea if this would be a viable plan, i only know some people would like and support it16:25
Stskeepsa typical subcontractor hour can run from anything like 120 eur per hour to 500 in worst case16:25
tbrcehteh: the challenge is now a microeconomic / consumer market problem16:25
Stskeepsin mobile linux16:25
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cehtehhey sfos for my wifes aging note2 would be damn cool16:25
cehtehthe hardware is still much better than the jolla phones ... quadcore 2GB ram etc16:26
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Stskeepsyou can get a pretty functional nexus 5 port16:26
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tbralso another problem is, that going from a community hw adaptation to something that people won't hate can actually be quite expensive16:26
cehtehwell we have the note2 here .. i recently installed CM on it.  but SFOS ... even if it costs a bit would be damn nice16:27
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cehtehby a bit i prolly mean less than 50Eur16:27
* tbr giggles when he sees the occasional person bust in and exclaim: OMG, I still can't make calls on my XYZ phone with the sailfish image, you are such lazy fucks!16:27
cehtehbut you would get a decent performing phone out of it16:27
cehtehtbr: sure16:27
tbrcehteh: now if you paid 50€, what would your expectation towards the OS functionality be?16:27
cehtehshould be as good as on the jolla (which still has enough fuckups)16:28
cehtehsure16:28
tbris the camera allowed to crash twice a day? bluetooh can stop sometimes, GPS won't work only network positioning, etc16:28
cehtehi know that needs work, hence i saied i have no idea if its viable16:29
tbrright, and to get a device to such a quality level, even without going through recertification is easily an investment in the 5-6 figure range16:29
tbrhow many licenses at 50€ for note2 do you need to sell to recoup a 50000€ hardware adaptation cost?16:29
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M4rtinK2I think that the license-to-device-maker model can work even with a fully open OS16:31
M4rtinK2as they would basically be paying you to make your OR running on they hardware, fix bugs and make it up to date & secure16:31
M4rtinK2and possibly for new features they want16:31
cehtehhey no idea, but all the samsung galaxy models from that time are sufficently similar with not too much effort you could support some more devices16:31
M4rtinK2and they would also get to use your brand16:31
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M4rtinK2+- how RHEL or other enterprise licensing works16:31
cehtehyes you dont license the software, you buy support16:31
tbrcehteh: ok, reasonably similar, so let's say 10k per additional device for verification and fixes. you now support 10 models and invested 140000€16:31
cehtehand gurantees16:31
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M4rtinK2I think it could kinda work16:32
cehtehtbr: i am not the marketing dept, i have no idea on sales and estimation16:32
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cehteh14000€ .. would mean roughly 3000 people licensing it16:33
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M4rtinK2"buy our devices as it will have updates for at least x years with quick out of band security updates provided by Jolla"16:33
cehtehfor me that doesnt look like impossible16:33
tbrM4rtinK2: only if phone hardware would become more discoverable and uniformly supported. Not with the current setup.16:33
cehtehbut i really have no idea16:33
cehtehplus the benefit of more SFOS on the market16:33
cehtehwhich would be kindof priceless16:33
M4rtinK2tbr: I don't think that's strictly needed for the license-to-manufacturer thing16:34
cehteherr forgot a 016:34
M4rtinK2the people-buying-sailfish does probably need that though16:34
tbrthe other problem is, that technically by installing a 3rd party OS your phone might void its certification/approval → it's now a legal liability16:35
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tbra private individual can get away with that, as it's near impossible that they will even get noticed/caught. But if a business does and suddenly 1000 or 10000 phones on a mobile phone network all start to misbehave...16:35
tbrsuddenly the phone software is a huge liability16:36
tbrM4rtinK2: yes, if the manufacturer wants to do their own adaptation work, still it will take them long.16:36
tbrM4rtinK2: I was also thinking along the lines of a generally open market where phone hardware and OS are decoupled. Like PCs16:37
Stskeeps(emergency calls..)16:38
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tbrStskeeps: who needs that, as long as I can have this shiny frr34k4z01dz mod master ultra rom on my phone!16:39
M4rtinK2tbr: indeed, it would be good if this got more sane16:39
M4rtinK2as it is indeed very important for distros to if possible just have a single universal installation image16:39
M4rtinK2or just one per arch16:39
M4rtinK2not one per device16:39
M4rtinK2that does not scale16:39
M4rtinK2one reason for the SBSA specification for ARM v8 servers16:40
Stskeepswell, if you see the kind of modifications ODMs do to android..16:40
Stskeeps:P16:40
Stskeepssingle installation image is a pipe dream :)16:40
M4rtinK2well we have device tree16:40
M4rtinK2but yeah, still16:40
tbrwhat can help here are a few factors: android recently moved all firmware and other things into a separate partition16:40
M4rtinK2even Sonny is millions of lines distant from mainline kernel16:40
tbrneither DT nor ACPI is a good and stable API16:40
Stskeepsoh not even kernel16:41
Stskeeps-android- modifications16:41
Stskeeps:P16:41
Stskeepstry to take a look at aosp vs codeaurora and cry bitter, bitter tears16:41
tbrStskeeps: count the ways of the RIL! ;->16:41
M4rtinK2well, BSD - that's the point :)16:41
M4rtinK2still I do hope things improve there16:41
M4rtinK2well at least for kernel16:41
arvut_can I allow older deprecated https in the jolla browser?16:42
M4rtinK2as I think the current state does not scale anymore and something will need to be done about it16:42
Stskeepsit works fine for the throwaway market16:42
Stskeepsnobody cares about good architecture16:42
Stskeepsas long as it is good enough16:42
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tbralso the server market is not all shiny and great either. Try to get kernel support from one of the commercial distro vendors if you're not running on hardware that they "certified". Either they'll laugh and hang up or they will quote you an hourly engineering price that will make you bleed out of several orifices at an alarming rate.16:44
tbrso in the end it all comes full circle, you buy the server locked into a certain distro, for which the manufacturer arranged/paid certification16:45
tbrif you choose something else, it's suddenly just "community hardware adaptation"16:45
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Stskeepsif i was a hw maker today i'd stick to whatever the odm gave, make sure all mods to non-binary android sw was public in git form and kernel too, and make sure to merge security fixes; and raze most of the android stack16:47
Stskeepsas to not worry about the '4.2.2 is too old' problem16:48
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Stskeepsbut it'd be damn hard to find a ODM who'd allow that in first plac16:50
Stskeepse16:50
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* Stskeeps glances at weather near hometown16:58
StskeepsWind 65 km/h from the West with gusts up to 107 km/h16:58
Stskeepswell that should be fun16:58
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RaYmAnStskeeps: denmark pretty much shut down. Even copenhagen - s-strains are cancelled from 2217:04
StskeepsRaYmAn: not ba17:04
Stskeepsd17:04
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Stskeepsgiven it's north west, wonder if it'll make it to poland in some form..17:05
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ortylpRaYmAn: ups... I'm flying through Copenhagen in 12 hours...17:06
Stskeepsshould have cleared up by then17:07
RaYmAnhopefully it'll have passed by then17:07
Stskeepshttp://en.allmetsat.com/metar-taf/europe.php?icao=EKCH17:07
StskeepsWind 65 km/h from the West with gusts up to 111 km/h17:07
Stskeepsfun!17:07
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ortylpI see...17:09
ortylpStskeeps: thanks for the link, I am flying only if there is no other option...17:10
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arvut_its dead vere now?17:50
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Yaniel"WOCKY_CONNECTOR_ERROR_TLS_UNAVAILABLE (#5): TLS requested but server is not XMPP 1.0 co...(try using "old SSL")"18:29
Yanielnope, no XMPP for me, it seems18:29
cehtehmhm18:30
cehtehworks for me18:31
cehtehwhat server?18:32
Yanielslack xmpp gateway18:32
cehtehdunno what that is18:32
cehtehi have my own .. prosody18:32
Yanielslack is like next-gen irc18:32
jfredSlack is a proprietary chat thing18:32
Stskeepsslack is f***king high valuation irc18:33
Stskeeps:P18:33
jfredXD18:33
jfredI would argue that either Matrix or IRCv3 are next-gen IRC18:33
Yanielanyway it has an xmpp gateway18:33
M4rtinK2jfred: +118:33
YanielMatrix looks interesting18:34
Yanielbut I'm a bit worried about how much overhead it generates18:34
jfredin any case, I'm not sure how the Slack XMPP gateway works, but if it exposes rooms as XMPP MUCs it won't work with the sailfish client anyway as that doesn't yet support groupchats18:34
Yanielas in via chat history18:34
jfredOverhead in what way?18:34
Yanielthe illustration on their main page makes it seem like there is a whole lot of back-and-forth synchronization happening all the time18:35
cehtehxmpp isnt the greatest protocol either, its just there and everyone uses it18:36
jfredAside from being stored on disk, how is that different from an XMPP MUC?18:37
Yanielno idea, I haven't used XMPP before either18:37
cehtehyou have some native xmpp account?18:37
Yanielnope18:38
YanielI was thinking of setting up a matrix homeserver at some point18:38
Yanielhaven't gotten around to yet18:38
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jfredAny federated protocol will require that your message be sent to all servers participating in federation. The difference being Matrix keeps track of messages even if the client happens to be offline at that point.18:40
jfredActually scratch that, XMPP MUCs live on one server...18:40
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jfredM4rtinK2: By the way, not sure if the dev spoke with you about it but one of the newer Matrix clients is using universal-components :)18:44
TofeLike those wonderful quality valves ?18:45
locusfreally?18:45
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M4rtinK2jfred: cool! :)18:51
jfredhttps://github.com/davidar/tensor18:51
M4rtinK2jfred: I met some Matrix people on FOSDEM this year :)18:51
jfredoh nice!18:51
jfredI still wish I could go to FOSDEM XD18:51
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Yanielthat purple sidebar though...18:52
jfredHaha, I like the purple sidebar, though it does look a bit out of place on Sailfish :P18:52
Yanielyou mean everywhere18:52
M4rtinK2the sidebar entries should definitely be larger on the touch variants18:56
M4rtinK2IMHO18:56
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