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michiell | Hi all, I was just curious if anybody knows how to order additional batteries for a Jolla | 10:42 |
---|---|---|
Nicd- | there are no additional batteries available | 10:43 |
Nicd- | some people have researched alternative batteries but of course they are not officially compatible | 10:43 |
michiell | Well, the idea would be that this would be a way to support the company cash position | 10:43 |
michiell | Batteries do have a nasty habit of degrading | 10:44 |
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Nicd- | problem is there aren't any batteries available | 10:44 |
michiell | And it would be nice to get some money into sailors pockets to help them get through the times | 10:44 |
michiell | Nicd: clear. | 10:44 |
michiell | Thanks for the answer. | 10:45 |
Nicd- | the only time they have sold batteries was earlier this year and the batch was sold out in a couple of hours I think | 10:45 |
Nicd- | it's sad because Jolla was advertised with a removable battery | 10:45 |
SQUelcher | Nicd-: It is removable, though ;) | 10:46 |
sharpneli | Yeah. It's removable, not replaceable. | 10:46 |
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Nicd- | not much use in being removable if you cannot get a replacement... | 10:47 |
michiell | Is this not a quick actionable item? Surely there are suppliers that could provide a batch of batteries? | 10:47 |
Nicd- | probably not. there's a bunch of logistics to deal with | 10:47 |
Nicd- | a small batch could very well end up as a net loss for them | 10:48 |
Nicd- | and they probably don't have money for continued production | 10:48 |
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michiell | I would order two or three, and I'm sure many other users would too. Earch battery would bring in 1/6th of the price of a new phone. | 10:53 |
michiell | I'm sure that one could also talk to a company like Acculand for fulfillment. | 10:54 |
Nicd- | considering how few Jollas were sold that money would still be peanuts | 10:54 |
Nicd- | because most people would not buy them | 10:55 |
michiell | I would argue that there would be one sold for each Jolla owner, because anyone can foresee that their battery will go down at some point. | 10:58 |
michiell | And it is a nice way to support Jolla in these tough times. | 10:58 |
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Nicd- | I would argue that most people by a wide margin will switch phones when their battery starts to die | 11:00 |
Nicd- | considering Jolla's current situation | 11:00 |
Nicd- | even if you got 25k people to buy a bettery (unlikely) and got a 10 ⏠profit margin (unlikely) you would only get 250 k⏠| 11:00 |
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michiell | A 10 euro margin on a battery should be attainable, I think. | 12:10 |
michiell | And 250k is still something, I would argue. | 12:10 |
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michiell | Not to mention that even if it only paid for itself the result would be: | 12:11 |
michiell | 1) happy customers | 12:11 |
michiell | 2) staff that has a job for a few months | 12:11 |
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phlixi_o | i guess that fuels half a month, maybe one after the lyaoffs, but not multiple months... | 12:43 |
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phlixi_o | i wonder how many sailfish users would pay a monthley fee for updates, and how much... | 12:45 |
phlixi_o | ...i would love to be the paying customer (for example in contrast to google, where youi usually are the product as a user... not the customer) | 12:46 |
phlixi_o | unfortunately i guess such solutions already have been discarded | 12:47 |
phlixi_o | and i can not think of actually successfull examples, i just see struggling app.net and similar | 12:47 |
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ggabriel | well, we all have calculators, so it can take ~50 eur a year for 20k users to maintain sfos, assuming a 10 mil eur/year requirement | 12:52 |
ggabriel | but there are other problems with that | 12:52 |
ggabriel | I assume that 10 mil eur per year will go up if you have to provide images for other hw and support it | 12:52 |
ggabriel | erm, I think it's actually 50 eur per month :P | 12:54 |
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ggabriel | so I wonder how many people are happy to pay that money until Jolla can grow their business | 12:54 |
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pdanek | TMavica: are you here please? | 15:49 |
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pavi | ggabriel: 50 E / month / user is just impossible. People cry for paying 10 E/month for non stop netflix entertainment. | 16:35 |
phlixi_o | that is why i sayd, i wonder how many would consider to pay monthly, and how much... | 16:37 |
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phlixi_o | jolla would have to make a psm to determine wether thats viable or not | 16:38 |
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pavi | Lets say a new apple phone is worth 600 E and the super fanboi's buy one every year. Than thats worth 50 E. | 16:39 |
pavi | could we say that Jolla has same fanbois with full pockets? | 16:39 |
phlixi_o | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Westendorp's_Price_Sensitivity_Meter (or similar) | 16:40 |
phlixi_o | i expect something from 5 to 10E (without hardware, only sailfish) might be viable from a comsumer point of view | 16:42 |
phlixi_o | but thats probably not enough users around... | 16:42 |
pavi | 10 Euro for netflix or sailfish , thats your choice ;) | 16:43 |
Smar | I canât see selling upgrades can work any more, with masses | 16:43 |
Smar | and if you assume a person purchases software with 50 euros where jolla takes 30 % profit... | 16:43 |
phlixi_o | a lot of services are priced in that range, e.g. mailboxes at germans "freemail" providers (gmx, web.de etc) price the same for their "premium" produkts | 16:44 |
phlixi_o | also netflix is a good example | 16:44 |
Helle | given that I know SailfishOS and love it, I'd probably would pay 10 euro for it a month, because I think that Android and iOS are just worthless on phones (Android is okayish on tablets) | 16:44 |
phlixi_o | i think the selling point is that in this case you are the customer, not like android, where you are the product | 16:45 |
phlixi_o | problem in all cases is to establish a userbase large enough | 16:47 |
phlixi_o | but i think jolla is well awaare of that | 16:47 |
Smar | yeah :) | 16:47 |
Smar | hence, tons of money for bootstrapping would be nice | 16:47 |
phlixi_o | in order to survive with only (so far not implemented) share of harbour sales, would require A LOT more users (while of course it might be easier to get users without a monthly fee | 16:49 |
Helle | btw one of my more hilarious "Why the fuck doesn't Android support this", themes | 16:49 |
Helle | for some Reason (capital needed) Google thinks, they know exactly what colours and gradients everyone likes | 16:49 |
phlixi_o | they probably actually know that :D | 16:50 |
Smar | phlixi_o: problem with subscription fees is that I canât see that increasing after initial amount | 16:50 |
Helle | phlixi_o: given how statistics work, no they don't | 16:50 |
Smar | like, enthusiasts, sure, but major amount of users are not enthusiasts | 16:50 |
Smar | like, theyâre now selling the phones for 199$, if they make 10$ profit from that, thatâs one âmonthly feeâ donation and one new user... | 16:51 |
phlixi_o | as mentioned above, thats all due to too small userbase | 16:51 |
phlixi_o | i guess there are enough users that dont know about sailfish that would love it | 16:51 |
Smar | not welcoming people in is not good way to increase userbase :) | 16:51 |
phlixi_o | at the moment every single user is more or less an enthsiast, because "normal people" dont even havea chance to even accidetially buy a jolla... they go into the shop of a provider, or to the website and buy the phone with a plan | 16:53 |
phlixi_o | ...and there are no jollas neither in the stores nor on the network providers websites | 16:54 |
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ggabriel | pavi: well, thanks for that... I knew that 50 eur a month was close to impossible. In fairness, the math comes to 41 eur a month, assuming 20k devices | 16:55 |
ggabriel | so we need 4x more userbase | 16:55 |
phlixi_o | for example: http://www.congstar.de/handys/betriebssysteme/firefox-os/ (german provider) | 16:55 |
ggabriel | and it would be a pretty new business model | 16:55 |
phlixi_o | ggabriel: probably only 10% like to pay, then you are at 410EUR | 16:56 |
phlixi_o | not that new ggabriel see for example app.net | 16:56 |
phlixi_o | or as mentioned german email "freemail" providers offer ad free service for a monthly fee | 16:56 |
ggabriel | I mean new business model for a mobile OS | 16:58 |
ggabriel | as the other ones are "free" | 16:58 |
ggabriel | not as in free beer, as in they come with some hw or something and you don't have to pay; but they they're all closed and updates stop when the provider decides | 16:59 |
phlixi_o | thats the problem, most peolpe think they are free, but they are not free... google: you pay with data, apple: you pay with device | 16:59 |
ggabriel | and yeah, to me android is as closed as ios/windows :P | 16:59 |
chem|st | phlixi_o: with device? apple is you pay with data too | 17:02 |
phlixi_o | not so sure | 17:02 |
phlixi_o | apple is convincing me far more that they actually sell the phones... compared to google | 17:03 |
phlixi_o | however, they do not let me setup my own private icloud on my own server (then i would be sold pretty much) | 17:03 |
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ggabriel | ios does come with more tools than android (xmpp, caldav, etc.). funnily enough, not as many as sfos ootb | 17:04 |
ggabriel | still they want your data though :P | 17:04 |
phlixi_o | i think it is more plausible that they do a lot of this for the customer, in the end it is way more convinient if they have everything in the cloud for you | 17:06 |
chem|st | phlixi_o: selling information, statistics, usage patterns - or how do you think marketing works? | 17:07 |
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phlixi_o | in case of google/facebook they do not sell it, they use it themself for selling their ads | 17:09 |
chem|st | apple matches you search patterns even without being logged in to any service, using an iphone and safari on a desktop will give you the same results over time | 17:09 |
chem|st | google just the same | 17:09 |
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chem|st | even with opt-out and don't track me cookies | 17:10 |
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phlixi_o | deleting cookies is probably the better "do not track cookie" | 17:12 |
chem|st | phlixi_o: hehe, nope | 17:12 |
chem|st | what they do works without cookies | 17:12 |
chem|st | in simple words, pattern analysis | 17:13 |
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phlixi_o | i know a few tricks you can do to get fingerprints, like combining several things like installed plugins, fonts etc, put in IPs etc... however, i do not think they activly use that for ads, because everytime i delete cookies i get crazy ads | 17:20 |
pdanek | Helle, phlixi_o, pavi: ggabriel, Smar: There is still hope to receive 10M investor funding in December. | 17:20 |
phlixi_o | where as when not, sooner or later the ads corelate with stuff i surft on | 17:21 |
phlixi_o | pdanek do you have other sources than the blogpost? | 17:21 |
phlixi_o | ...btw the same for amazon, where ads obviously are linked to previous visits, but without cookies they are matched to the products you look at... of course i do not know hat they actually do :-) | 17:22 |
Smar | pdanek: yes, of course :) | 17:22 |
phlixi_o | there are also funny things for some mobile phone providers in germany where your address includes your phone number, which makes it super easy to track you without any cookie stuff | 17:24 |
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ggabriel | pdanek: december is tomorrow :P | 17:24 |
phlixi_o | by the way, just checked, "GMX pro mail" is 2.99eur/month and "Web.de club" 5eur/month | 17:26 |
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ggabriel | a lot more fun to run your own mail server :P | 17:30 |
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phlixi_o | yes of course | 17:36 |
phlixi_o | but we where talking about the idea of monthly fees fopr sailfish | 17:36 |
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phlixi_o | and in the end running your mailserver isnt that easy | 17:37 |
phlixi_o | that is actually a lot of work | 17:37 |
Lieke | yeah, mail server configuration is a major pita | 17:38 |
ggabriel | depends on a number of things, but ofc not for the normal user | 17:38 |
ggabriel | i suggest smtpd, config is <50 lines | 17:38 |
ggabriel | not that sendmail is hard in a decent distro | 17:38 |
sharix | SD-Card hotplugging? Sorry to be a bit lazy, haven't tried to fand info elsewhere, but wondered before if the sd-card is supposed to be hot-swappable, hence SailfishOS does mount/ro if no writes winisehd? | 17:41 |
ggabriel | sharix: nope, you have to umount afaik | 17:42 |
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ggabriel | so it is hot pluggable if you umount :P | 17:42 |
sharix | ggabriel: at least it's electrical hot-pluggable then :-) | 17:43 |
ggabriel | yup, not a common use case tbh | 17:45 |
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pdanek | phlixi_o: no, just the blogpost source | 17:51 |
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pdanek | Would you guys say that Motorola are probably best Android phones out there? | 18:15 |
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dirkvl | yeah, motorola makes the best generic rectangle slabs with touchscreen | 18:16 |
dirkvl | love how the have the 3 capacitive buttons | 18:16 |
dirkvl | and also volume rocker | 18:16 |
dirkvl | uniques design | 18:16 |
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raa700 | =) | 18:22 |
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pdanek | dirkvl: I don't see any capacitive buttons on Motorola phones | 18:27 |
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pdanek | they all have just screen and buttons are in OS | 18:27 |
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adherry | didnât know that freenode can be full | 19:50 |
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adherry | btw. how is the current community position to Jolla nearly failscading, more tense or âeverything will be goodâ? | 19:55 |
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Nicd- | I think there's not enough information to say | 19:56 |
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r0kk3rz | adherry: the community is powerless in this | 20:08 |
r0kk3rz | naturally there is a mix of both optimists and pessimists about the news | 20:08 |
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nh1402 | r0kk3rz: how's it going | 20:14 |
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Stskeeps | flip a coin | 20:15 |
adherry | hmm, I think I will start being pessimist now | 20:15 |
adherry | 3rd phone crash since yesterday morning | 20:15 |
adherry | Its all going down !!!! | 20:15 |
Stskeeps | adherry: total shutdown? | 20:16 |
adherry | just restarted | 20:16 |
adherry | out of the blue | 20:16 |
adherry | one second I hear music | 20:16 |
adherry | next I see Jolla on the display | 20:16 |
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pdanek | adherry: mine freezes/crashes every 2nd day | 20:17 |
adherry | mine didnt | 20:17 |
adherry | until yesterday | 20:17 |
TemeV | clean the battery contacts | 20:17 |
pdanek | TemeV: not this type of issue | 20:17 |
adherry | ok, will try that | 20:17 |
tbr | reboot is not battery related usually | 20:18 |
TemeV | pdanek: it was for adherry :) You issues must be something else | 20:18 |
tbr | total shutdown is often battery contact | 20:18 |
TemeV | tbr: for me it was mostly reboots, rarely shutdown. And it was about battery | 20:18 |
tbr | interesting, first time I hear it that way | 20:19 |
pdanek | TemeV: it's like everything freezes for maybe 30s and finally phone gives up and reboots, happens quite a lot when using Android apps | 20:19 |
Stskeeps | yeah, clean the battery contacts | 20:19 |
pdanek | perhaps memory issue | 20:19 |
Stskeeps | can manifest in both reboots and shutdonws | 20:19 |
tbr | gentle abrasive cleaning that can remove 1-2 atom layer oxide layer | 20:20 |
M4rtinK | no issues since the paper hack | 20:20 |
TemeV | M4rtinK: don't worry, the papaer will lose its power over time. Then you have to clean the contacts :) | 20:21 |
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pdanek | Do you guys think Yotaphone will still release dualboot Android/Sailfish phone? | 20:23 |
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Stskeeps | that was never official anyway? | 20:23 |
pdanek | Stskeeps: well, the rumor must have started somewhere, right? every rumor has a bit of truth | 20:24 |
adherry | In the end ms will buy Jolla do double its market share ;) | 20:24 |
Stskeeps | pdanek: like nokia giving jolla initial investment money, rumour? | 20:24 |
Stskeeps | :P | 20:24 |
pdanek | Stskeeps: hmmm | 20:24 |
Stskeeps | sometimes rumours appear out of nothing | 20:24 |
pdanek | Amazon buys Jolla!!! | 20:25 |
adherry | god no pls | 20:25 |
nh1402 | Stskeeps: I believe that rumour started from Yahoo, either that or they didn't provide their source for the article | 20:25 |
r0kk3rz | nh1402: good mate, you? | 20:26 |
M4rtinK | Sailfish on iPhone, I tell you! :) | 20:27 |
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nh1402 | I'm alright, the android project has took a backseat since I finally found a role which I've been at for the past month now, and since I'm going to be going on holiday next week actually I won't get a chance to work on it till the new year, or the 27th December at the earliest | 20:28 |
r0kk3rz | yeah employment has a habit of doing that | 20:28 |
mornfall | meh | 20:29 |
M4rtinK | mo holiday hacking ? ;-) | 20:29 |
nh1402 | The place I'll be going to on holiday will be prehistoric when it comes to an internet connection, absolutely abysmal. Not just internet connection either, many other ways too. | 20:30 |
r0kk3rz | well i think the major holdup atm is lack of access to devices | 20:31 |
mornfall | no electricity, no tap water | 20:31 |
adherry | you visit the us? | 20:31 |
nh1402 | tap water yes, electricity - sometimes. | 20:33 |
adherry | So you are talking about the South of the USA? | 20:33 |
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nh1402 | wrong side of the world, it was once known as India | 20:35 |
r0kk3rz | pakistan? | 20:36 |
nh1402 | yes | 20:36 |
r0kk3rz | yep, prehistoric seems to be the accurate term there | 20:38 |
adherry | Well, tap water and only electricity when fox news runs, thats how I imagine the life of rednecks | 20:41 |
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nh1402 | r0kk3rz: thank you, if swing by #sailfishos-porters there's a guy who seems to know his stuff about graphics stuff, and providing some incite about our Android in Sailfish concept. | 20:46 |
nh1402 | well a lot more than me anyway (which isn't that hard to do since I know very little in that area) | 20:48 |
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pdanek | https://www.wileyfox.com/swift/ | 22:03 |
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pdanek | Stskeeps: How do you like MIUI? | 23:16 |
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