Thursday, 2021-04-22

sledges#startmeeting Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 22th April 202106:59
sailbotMeeting started Thu Apr 22 06:59:59 2021 UTC. The chair is sledges. Information about MeetBot at
sailbotUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.06:59
*** sailbot changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 22th April 2021)"06:59
sledges#info Meeting information and agenda can be found here:07:00
sledgesI am the meeting's chairperson today, and will be doing my best to keep time and order. Please respect the timings and beahver.07:00
sledges#topic Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info07:00
*** sailbot changes topic to "Brief introduction (5 min). Please prefix your name/handle with #info (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 22th April 2021)"07:00
ExTechOp#info Otto Mäkelä, community07:00
sledges#info Simonas Leleiva -- privateer for Jolla07:00
Nico[m]#info Nico - community07:00
lbt#info David Greaves, Jolla sailor07:01
rubdos[ma]#info Ruben De Smet, community, standing in for nthn07:02
ViGe#info Ville Nummela, sailor@Jolla07:02
dcaliste#info Damien Caliste, community07:02
Thaodan#info Björn Bidar - sailor at Jolla07:03
flypig#info David Llewellyn-Jones sailor @ jolla07:04
Thaodanhyvää huomenta you all :)07:05
sledges#topic Enabling MPEG DASH in gstreamer (5 min -- asked by Mister_Magister)07:05
*** sailbot changes topic to "Enabling MPEG DASH in gstreamer (5 min -- asked by Mister_Magister) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 22th April 2021)"07:05
Nico[m]Hey, I still know enough finish to understand that!07:05
sledges#info <Mister_Magister> Previously it was said that enabling it requires costly licenses. But upon my investigation neither DASH-IF and projects it supports require any licenses to use and neither DASH LA sells dash license anymore. This topic is just to inform and motivate Jolla to talk to their law people to check if it really needs license. Otherwise DASH is going to be very useful.07:05
sledges#info <Jolla> There is no information about the patents being revoked, just that the pool collapsed? Pool apparently collapsed because many principal patent holders were missing. News hint there is an ongoing invalidation campaign, but until there is official news of the patents being voided we cannot prematurely enable such patented technology.07:06
abranson#info Andrew Branson - late sailor07:08
ExTechOp(the late Mr. Branson)07:08
sledges#info <Jolla> Out of interest, what are the concrete use cases where you are planning to use this? And what are the benefits?07:08
ThaodanHow is the early Mr Branson? :p07:08
abransonI don't believe he exists07:09
Nico[m]DASH is used for a lot of videos nowadays, like reddit videos and youtube afaik. Those videos play only either video or sound without it, afaik.07:09
sledgesis Mister_Magister around?07:10
Thaodanabranson: Maybe some good Finish coffee would help07:11
sledgesMr Earl(y) Grey Branson was mentioned as the substitute-knows-it-all:)07:12
Nico[m]I guess Mister_Magister overslept :D07:12
ThaodanI fear it is like with many things that you require the one the other thing first before you allowed to use it07:12
Nico[m]But I think he wanted to play a video that was split in 2 streams, audio and video and you basically need dask to play them or "reimplement" it by combining those streams in gstreamer07:13
abransonwell, I spoke to him about it, and he wanted legal clarification, and that's what he's got07:13
ThaodanNico[m]: next meeting at 18:00 confirmed xD07:13
Nico[m]Thaodan: TODAY?!?07:13
rubdos[ma]"no afternoon meetings" is what I heard last time ;p07:13
ThaodanNo meetings that are close to lunch time, a man needs time to go to lunch07:14
abransonbecause the whole patent situation around DASH is a mess right now. There's a licensing authority but it doesn't cover enough patents so it's not active right now. So I guess the legal solution right now would be to license all those patents individually from each licensee.07:14
rubdos[ma]Sounds like your typical MPEG/JPEG license mess :(07:15
sledges#info <abranson> because the whole patent situation around DASH is a mess right now. There's a licensing authority but it doesn't cover enough patents so it's not active right now. So I guess the legal solution right now would be to license all those patents individually from each licensee.07:15
sledgesand 5 minutes just gone (twice actually:)07:15
sledgesmoving on07:15
sledges#topic Collaboration with community on future-proofing Xperia X with updated Android app support (15 min -- asked by nthn, represented by rubdos)07:15
*** sailbot changes topic to "Collaboration with community on future-proofing Xperia X with updated Android app support (15 min -- asked by nthn, represented by rubdos) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 22th April 2021)"07:15
sledges#info <nthn> In Nov 2019, Jolla decided against an updated baseport for Xperia X because they would have to maintain two baseports for one device, but community sees no problem in abandoning the old baseport and reflashing their devices, and is able and willing to help Jolla out with a new baseport - community member @vknecht already got Sailfish running on kernel 4.9 in Dec 2019.07:16
sledges#info <nthn> Would Jolla revisit their decision, and if so, what should community do to make updated kernel/Android app support on Xperia X a reality?07:16
sledges#info Extended details:07:16
sledges#info <Jolla> Jolla is not actively developing new baseports for old devices that are no longer sold anywhere, but we are looking into possibility of allowing community to buy proprietary parts of Sailfish X to install on top of community ports, but unfortunately we are not there yet.07:16
Nico[m]Oh, that would be amazing!07:17
Nico[m]Also, my whole family is using the X compact by now for some reason, so having a newer android and baseport for it would be appreciated .-.07:17
rubdos[ma]That would basically open up the whole wide world of smartphones to a full-fledged SailfishOS... Woah.07:17
rubdos[ma]You're saying you're not actively developing a new baseport, but apparently the community has done it. It might make sense that, if that community port works and the proprietary bits fit right in, you can help the community by swapping maintenance to the new port?07:19
rubdos[ma]I'm not sure whether the old port is still "sold and supported" at this point (I'm an X10 user myself)07:19
Nico[m]Ruben De Smet: The newer android part works pretty differently, so the swap wouldn't just magically work07:20
rubdos[ma]More like swapping it on an administrative level: Jolla saying "this is old, if you have a new Xperia, install this instead"07:20
sledgesXperia X is still receiving all sfos updates and needed CVEs in its kernel07:21
rubdos[ma]I guess it would double the work for Jolla for some time, if you were to "upgrade" it :-/07:21
sledgesif you "upgrade" (=reflash) it with a community port, doesn't it become a community port?:)07:22
ThaodanThere are some restrictions on updating devices, even updated devices are not completely updated by sony07:23
rubdos[ma]Yeh, I think nthn would basically want Jolla to cooperate on the "community port" and make it an "official port"...07:23
sledgesrubdos, yep, but that does double the work, and was the same reason in 201907:23
abransonBut I think the main motivation for asking about official ports there is to get the sailfishx stuff07:25
rinigusinteresting way if it works to provide prop bits to community ports. that way xperia x could be offloaded to community and supported by porters, if newer prop bits are needed.07:25
rubdos[ma]Yes. Getting as close as possible to "supported with all the nice bits" is the goal, I feel.07:25
riniguslet's see if we have porter(s) interested in it07:25
rinigus... supporting x07:25
rubdos[ma]Indeed, putting the proprietary bits for sale will solve 99% of the issue, I think.07:26
abransonThere's no way Jolla could commit to taking over maintenance of all ports. I don't think even our build infra could take all those builds, let alone the sailors :D07:26
Nico[m]Bah, the build infra part would be solveable ;p07:26
abransonjust expensive :D07:27
rubdos[ma]Well, we're not asking to support literally all the smartphones that ever existed on the planet :'-)07:27
rubdos[ma]Just Throw It In The Cloud™07:27
abransonbut they'd all need updating. how many ports are out there that the original porter stopped supporting.07:27
Nico[m]But if the X stuff would work with any community port (or most of them), I would have a lot more freedom to choose devices and maybe I would even make my own port. So that sounds really nice :D07:28
rubdos[ma]It might be a major incentive for porters to step up and keep maintaining for longer.07:28
rinigusabranson: I don't think it was asked to support all ports. original topic was regarding xperia x. jolla's solution is to say no to that specific question, but propose the way to make it possible by community.07:29
riniguswhich is fine, I guess07:29
rubdos[ma]If you consider Xperia X to be "written off", having the community maintain it for a few years longer sounds like a fair deal, given the proprietary nuts and bolts...07:29
Nico[m]rinigus: Probably better than what was asked for .-.07:29
rinigussure, unofficial ports users will be happy for such outcome07:30
rinigusand we can test how many people will be willing to put hours into making xperia x switch happen.07:31
abransonrinigus: the question if jolla would make a port official kind of adds those questions on, and I think it's important to make clear why that's not feasible. If it's expected that Jolla then maintain the port indefinitely, then those would quickly accumulate.07:31
abransonbut as we're saying, it should be necessary07:31
rubdos[ma]I mean, for the Xperia X the porting work seems to be "done" already, so I feel like the switch will be relatively smooth...07:31
rinigusis unofficial xperia x port updated to the latest version?07:32
rinigusthat "done" is reset with every SFOS release and you have to update the port accordingly. which is not Jolla's job and shouldn't be.07:33
rinigusabranson: sure, don't think it was implied. but always good to be clear on it07:33
abransonyeah, that was my point. it's the assumption that everything else must work around07:34
Nico[m]abranson: Some ports really should be made official just for image purposes imo, like PinePhone and FairPhone ports, but that is a different topic .-.07:35
rubdos[ma]Nico, rinigus , I was replying to "and we can test how many people will be willing to put hours into making xperia x switch happen."07:35
Nico[m]Ruben De Smet: I'm pretty sure the switch for users could not be done via a simple update, so you get the annoying maintenance split, I think. So even if the work is done, it doesn't mean that Jolla wouldn't have a lot more work on their hands, if they made it official.07:35
rubdos[ma]not re Jolla taking it up anymore :-)07:35
sledgesso, not the answer nthn was hoping for, but a better one:)) let's move on (or continue)07:37
sledges#topic General discussion (20 min)07:37
*** sailbot changes topic to "General discussion (20 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 22th April 2021)"07:37
Nico[m]Ah, i see :D07:37
rinigusRuben De Smet: yes, it is probably going to be relatively smooth if it all worked on some recent SFOS release. just some work will be needed./07:37
rubdos[ma]Maybe a last follow-up: it would be nice if Jolla could provide the proprietary bits for community ports some time ahead of deprecating/abandoning the existing Xperia X port.07:38
rubdos[ma]But I guess that's obvious :-)07:38
* Nico[m] comes to complain about Qt5.6 again. Can you please go to management again and ask them for a solution? <307:38
rinigusI haven't asked as it was late when the question came up. so, maybe as a part of gen discussion: would Jolla consider hosting ports in some manner?07:38
sledgesNico[m]: we do that on regular basis:)07:39
Nico[m]Like not, if we can get a Qt upgrade, but how we can get a Qt upgrade? :D07:39
rubdos[ma]I'm also joining the Qt5.6-is-sad-camp now; we've got KDE devs willing to port Whisperfish to Plasma ;p07:39
Nico[m]sledges: Thought as much. Just making some noise .-.07:39
Mister_Magisteroh dang i overslept07:39
Nico[m]It is getting painful to have the MOC from Qt5.6 work with C++17 namespaces and such07:39
sledgesNico[m]: rubdos[ma]: have you seen this?
Mister_Magisterwelp too bad07:40
abransonrinigus: don't some ports have bits in that can't be redistributed legally?07:40
rinigusI have worked on building complicated apps/ports on PC and got to the stage where I can build port and my apps quite well, similar to OBS. but hosting bits of OBS are needed externally07:40
Nico[m]sledges: Yes, I have seen that, we are currently updating the gentoo builds to use that07:40
rinigusabranson: not to my knowledge. we usually ask to flash lineage as a base with those bits07:40
rubdos[ma]Thanks sledges , will forward that to the KDE people ;p07:40
sledgesrubdos[ma]: was a side-note :p07:41
rinigusand for sony there is a whole legal way for it07:41
Nico[m]But I doubt those patches fix your licensing issues :D07:41
Nico[m]Also, good morning, Mister_Magister!07:41
rubdos[ma]I have one other for the general discussion. Given the recent stuff about the (apparently incapable) people of Cellebrite trying to exfiltrate smart phone data, I was thinking about what to do when SailfishOS becomes a target. See e.g.
Mister_Magisteryou can ask DASH-IF or any opensource player including gstreamer. none of them have any idea what license cost you are talking about07:42
Nico[m]FTR, Qt5.6 compat in C++ only libs is not too hard, but still annoying:
Mister_Magisterthere are no license costs associated with playing DASH07:42
Mister_Magisterits jolla's imaginary tihng07:42
sledgesrinigus: i don't think built sony's /system and /vendor contents are allowed to be hosted publicly07:42
flypigrubdos[ma], did you see the paper about using Cellebrite with SFOS?07:43
rubdos[ma]No, absolutely not07:43
rinigussledges: do you have reference to that? since those are built without prop bits which you download separately07:43
Thaodansledges: I don't think thats the case07:43
sledgesbuilt binaries will have all android mixed licences within07:44
Thaodanonly the parts from odm are not public07:44
riniguswhen I asked on sony opendevices I mainly got laughed at. there is also a post regarding it07:44
Thaodanthe rest is apache/bsd code07:44
rinigussledges: as long as they are open source, it is OK07:44
sledgesbut each and every licence needs to be accounted for, i think that was the prob07:44
sledgesi.e. in RPM's .spec07:44
rubdos[ma]flypig: this one?07:45
sledgessrc is trivial -- it's in the header of a file:)07:45
Thaodan /system and /vendor is the case of sony just aosp but some vendors have blobs in /vendor07:45
flypigrubdos[ma], interesting, but no not that one. This one:
rinigussledges: in principle, we don't even need to host /system & /vendor. as those are used only while making image. what is needed all SFOS rpm's that get updated with OTA07:46
sledgesi've run a scrambler script once for the amount of licences in aosp, it's a mixed bag:)07:46
Nico[m]Oh, while we are talking about recovering data from Sailfish devices, when will we get alphanumeric passcodes for FDE? :D07:46
rubdos[ma]Ah a real paper, flypig :-)07:46
sledgesrinigus: system and vendor get regular updates07:46
rinigussledges: do you update it via updated /system & /vendor RPMs as well on official devices?07:47
ShalokShalom51Hi there07:47
flypigrubdos[ma], I could be misremembering the forensic tool they used in that paper.07:47
sledgesrinigus: yes, because we don't ask users to flash aosp first:) we package /system and /vendor into RPMs07:47
sledgesand leave open door for future patches07:47
ShalokShalom51I feel interested into Sailfish and the Astro Slide, is there any support planned?07:47
rubdos[ma]flypig: they have UFED in the list07:47
rinigussledges: yes, same for tama port. but I don't update those ones, maybe should07:48
ShalokShalom51Can I use Sailfish on this device?07:48
rubdos[ma]UFED requires ADB, so that's a no-no.07:48
rinigussledges: but back to the point - system and vendor should be legal to distribute. how do you do it then for official devices?07:48
sledgesfor active ports sony keeps pushing fixes; especially for something that's coming up;) (see first news):07:48
sledgesrinigus: i'm talking about hosting them on a public server07:49
Nico[m]I really need to get some notifications going for those blog posts!07:49
rinigussledges: but the server from which updates are pulled can be also considered public, isn't it?07:49
Nico[m]Could the writer maybe spam the link once in #sailfishos? :D07:50
rinigusthe one used for official sony ports07:50
ThaodanIt is common that aosp images are distributed by porters on xda07:50
ShalokShalom51Hi there07:50
ThaodanIs see no issue here07:50
rinigusThaodan: XDA images will not help with OTA07:51
Mister_Magistersledges: so we gotta suffer because jolla lives in imaginary world of dash playback costs even though literally noone has any idea what you are talking about?
riniguswe do need some server where we can point OTAs, as we do with OBS right now07:51
flypigrubdos[ma], yes, you're right, they used UFED and X-Ways07:51
Nico[m]Guess I need to buy a 10 now to test 64bit apps :D07:51
sledgesrinigus: but we do not host public git repos for the system and vendor binary blobs and build everything internally07:51
Thaodanrinigus: That was just one example why I think distrubting them is no issue.07:51
sledgesrinigus: build guide explicitly says "do not push droid-system to public git"07:52
Nico[m]Especially since my X is having issues with shutdown and I need to unplug the battery...07:52
Thaodansledges: droid-system contains no blobs that are not build by foss sources07:52
sledgesrinigus: i believe this has to be sorted after we have accouted for each and every licence within aosp07:52
sledgesThaodan: ^07:52
rinigussledges: from legal POV, it shouldn't matter whether /system /vendor are distributed from your closed or public server. you redistribute them which means that such license check was done07:53
flypigrubdos[ma], plus a bunch of others: Autopsy, Axium, Cellebrite, EnCase, FTK, GetData...07:53
ThaodanIf this was an issue xda would be shutdown years ago07:53
rinigusnotice that you don't redistribute prop bobs, but Sony does07:54
sledgesrinigus: but it has to account in RPM's Licence line07:54
rubdos[ma]flypig: can we offer ADB on the Sony devices that just sends "interesting files" (as per moxie0) to Cellebrite? ;-)07:54
rinigussledges: so what license line do we have there. you probably wrote it...07:54
sledgesa sailor who took the decision wrote all that, and it's WIP07:55
flypigrubdos[ma], yeah, that would be fun to set up. I don't see why not.07:55
rinigussledges: OK, iff you don't want to redistribute system/vendor right now, what about other packages?07:55
rinigus... and we can discuss legal aspect of system/vendor later07:56
sledgesabranson: could you see Mister_Magister comment pls ^^07:56
Mister_Magistersledges: i will go directly to MPEG-LA and confirm about any licensing costs associated with opensource players if jolla is too lazy07:57
sledgesrinigus: going back to your original request: there is no provision of hosting, because jolla would have to vet for everything's that's being uploaded, to check if something non-redist has sneaked in (even unwillingly)07:57
Mister_Magistergstreamer guys have no idea about any license either07:57
abransonMister_Magister: did you email mpeg-la like she suggested?07:57
Mister_Magisteri'm going to07:57
sledgesrinigus: community has hosted numerous things (gitlab CI), i'm sure a hosting solution can be achieved similar way through joint effort07:57
Mister_Magisterbut you missed first part07:57
Mister_Magister>We do not have any licensing fees and are not involved with any fees.07:58
sledgesopenrepos was another party extending a helping hand07:58
abransonok. we can ask the legal team to look into that maybe.07:58
rinigussledges: now that means, unless we fund it somehow externally from Jolla, ports will have to look for solution. or stop with them and move away07:58
Mister_Magisterabranson: thats all i want07:58
sledgesrinigus: it's a do-it-together spirit07:58
sledgesjust like it's always been07:59
Mister_Magisterrinigus: we already have solution for OTA ports07:59
rinigussledges: OBS?07:59
rinigusthat doesn't support aarch64 right now07:59
rinigussorry, Mister_Magister08:00
sledgesrinigus: and OBS is not forever (also suffers from unvetted uploads)08:00
Mister_Magisterrinigus: mentioned, openrepos08:00
Mister_Magisterguy agreed that we can put device packages there, even on separate account08:00
ShalokShalom51Any dev here?
rinigusMister_Magister: I don't think we have some kind of API to push the packages. then you also need separate repos for different versions.08:01
ShalokShalom51Look at the comparison sheet08:01
Mister_Magisterrinigus: thats true08:01
Mister_Magisterultimately maybe ill cook something08:02
ShalokShalom51Android 9 is now supported on the 10, this graph still shows 8.108:02
Mister_Magistergetting 1TB server that will just host packages is like 5€ play08:02
rinigussledges: neither are we (re forever).08:02
Mister_Magisterso don't you worry08:02
rinigusMister_Magister: depends on number of downloads, that's probably main expense08:02
sledgesrinigus: HADK OTA updates (chapter 12) describes how to handle multiple versions08:03
Mister_Magisterrinigus: ports aren't much popular08:03
sledgeson a externally hosted repos08:03
Mister_Magisterquite honestly08:03
rubdos[ma]ShalokShalom51: it's very unlikely that Jolla will start supporting a non-Sony device currently.08:03
sledgesrinigus: it's the same scenario like TMO keeping N900 up and running08:03
rubdos[ma]ShalokShalom51: we're basically all devs here.08:03
rinigussledges: hence I was asking regarding hosting.08:03
ShalokShalom51It did so with the Gemini, from the same company08:03
Mister_Magisteras long as i'm in this, there will always be a way08:04
sledgesrinigus: i was answering to "then you also need separate repos for different versions" :)08:04
rubdos[ma]Didn't make that link myself, ShalokShalom51 ... Then I didn't say anything :-)08:04
rinigussledges: actually, as you guys have the data - can you tell how much data does OBS serve during a month?08:04
Nico[m]Btw, what is the process for getting qml APIs whitelisted for harbour? Could I get Sailfish.Silica.Background whitelisted at some point? <308:04
Mister_Magistersledges: i second that08:04
ShalokShalom51Did the Gemini support come from Sailfish directly?08:05
riniguson average, then it will be clear what do we talk about. as, indeed, some 3rd party hosting can be done in the cloud as well08:05
Mister_Magisterrinigus: or in my living room, or in cloud, whatever is doable08:05
rubdos[ma]Nico: fwiw, we rolled our own roundedbackground because of 3.x and 4.x incompat ;p08:05
ThaodanI think users that use SFOS are interested in being hosted by "the cloud"08:05
Nico[m]Ruben De Smet: Is that harbour compatible? :D08:06
rubdos[ma]haha harbour08:06
sledgesrinigus: i'll get back to you on how much data community OBS serves a month, unless lbt knows already:)08:06
Mister_MagisterThaodan: users wouldn't see diff08:06
rubdos[ma]We're on Rust with a ton of hacks, harbour is far for us :D08:06
Mister_Magistermy living room is the cloud08:06
Nico[m]Because that is the last dependency really blocking me from harbour08:06
rubdos[ma]ShalokShalom51: the Gemini is an official SailfishX from Jolla afaik.08:06
rinigussledges: thanks. we just need something that will not disappear in a year or two08:06
Mister_Magistercan we just ignore existance of harbour08:06
ShalokShalom51This graph is outdated and shown on the webpage:
lbtI don't monitor OBS serving as the Hetzner solution is unlimited08:06
Mister_Magisterand move with our lives08:06
ThaodanMister_Magister: I'm not sure if thats to polish to me xD08:06
Mister_MagisterThaodan: it really is08:07
Mister_Magisterbut like is said getting 1TB vps with 1Gb/s link  is ez08:07
Nico[m]And it seems small and self contained and it did get recently moved to its own package, so I think it was planned to be allowed at some point :D08:07
ShalokShalom51rubdos: So it is possible to support another device of this lineup08:07
Mister_Magisterand that would be enough for us i think08:07
riniguslbt: OK, np.08:07
rubdos[ma]ShalokShalom51: they only added Xperia 10 II this morning, give them some time to update the graphs ;p08:07
ShalokShalom51Ah, ok08:07
ThaodanMister_Magister: I know, there is already used by tama.08:08
ShalokShalom51And I mean the Android 9 support08:08
rubdos[ma]ShalokShalom51: if the 10 II interests you:
Mister_MagisterThaodan: nothing is stopping you from usign your own repos08:08
ShalokShalom51That one is a littler older, I think?08:08
Mister_Magisteri'm just thinking about global solution08:08
ShalokShalom51I am interested into the Astro Slide08:08
Nico[m]Also, has anyone played around with OpenPush on Sailfish?08:08
ThaodanWell anyone that pings me can hoost their repos there08:08
ShalokShalom51Since the physical keyboard08:09
ThaodanIt is far to early..08:09
Mister_Magisteri'll most likely host my packages in my living room xd08:09
ViGeNico[m]: The "process" of gettin an API allowed starts by getting it to pass the checklist: I have no idea if the API you mentioned does that already.08:09
ShalokShalom51Is the Qt 5.6 debacle already solved?08:09
Mister_MagisterShalokShalom51: HAH08:09
rubdos[ma]They're all older, the Xperias. They need some time to get a new device supported. I think maybe for the Astro Slide you could open a topic on the forum, or write a topic for the next meeting.  It's too noisy and unfocussed in the "General Discussion", ShalokShalom51 .08:09
Nico[m]ViGe: Thanks, I'll look at it :308:09
Mister_Magisterthink we will be in 5.6 for next 10 years08:09
ShalokShalom51Ok, thanks a lot.08:09
rubdos[ma]^ slightly dramatic08:09
Mister_Magisterwe don't deal in up to date in sfos08:10
rubdos[ma](but it does get the point across haha)08:10
Nico[m]Mister_Magister: I see, you are an optimist!08:10
Mister_Magisterwe deal in older than debian stable08:10
Mister_MagisterNico[m]: mhm08:10
ShalokShalom51Did you contact KDE?08:10
rinigusThaodan: OK, let's discuss distribution via your server then on porters channel at some point.08:10
ShalokShalom51They could release the license.08:10
ThaodanMister_Magister: Don't let coronara restrictions hinder you in hosting packages for other people xD08:10
maier rubdos[ma]: is there a chance to get the Sony 10 III working with SOF?08:10
Mister_Magistergive me one package from sfos standard repos thats newer than same package in debian stable08:10
Mister_MagisterThaodan: hm?08:11
Thaodanrinigus: sure08:11
rubdos[ma]maier: you have an unreleased device, or is that a typo?08:11
rubdos[ma](or did I miss a release?)08:11
ShalokShalom51You know about their specific Qt license privilege, yes?08:11
* rubdos[ma] missed a release08:11
Nico[m]ViGe: I guess it kinda fits most of those points, I guess it is probably missing some docs though. It is the bubble background used in the messaging app FTR, so it is useful for messaging apps, that want to look similar to the first party one :308:11
rubdos[ma]maier: there's always a chance, if you port it yourself, I suppose.08:11
ThaodanMister_Magister: That was a bad pun on hosting stuff in your living room08:11
ShalokShalom51They also considered forking Qt08:11
maier rubdos[ma]: you are right ... but that is my next mobile08:11
Mister_MagisterThaodan: got 100Mb/s uplink… and server is running 24/7 anyway08:12
Mister_Magisterlike my website is on it08:12
rubdos[ma]You could look at the latency between a Sony release and a Jolla release, and extrapolate that to see when III is supported maier :-)08:12
Nico[m]I guess I should ask here:
ShalokShalom51A BSD license is probably fitting for the project08:13
rinigusRuben De Smet: also add latency between sony release and sony aosp release08:13
maierSlowly it is annoying to get only old hw!08:13
ViGeMister_Magister: So.. what do I get if I tell you a package which is newer on the last released SFOS release than Debian stable?08:13
rubdos[ma]If there is variability on that part, rinigus , then it needs to be accounted for :-)08:13
Mister_MagisterViGe: my respect…? i can paypal u 1€08:14
ShalokShalom51Qt 5.6 is obviously synonym with killing the company, so Sailfish is the next BB10 then..08:14
rinigusthere is some, I believe. + to variability, it takes sufficient amount of time usually08:14
ShalokShalom51While this died for several reasons.08:14
ViGeMister_Magister: respect is enough, you can forget the 1€ ;) createrepo in SFOS 4.0.1 is at 0.12.0, while Debian still has 0.10.3 I guess there might be other packages as well08:15
Nico[m]ShalokShalom51: There is no need to be dramatic08:15
Mister_MagisterNico[m]: he is not dramatic08:16
Mister_Magisterstate of sailfishos is terrible currently08:16
Mister_Magisterand its getting worse08:16
ShalokShalom51Are there any spins done by the community?08:17
* rubdos[ma] is off buying new glasses now, see you the next one!08:17
Nico[m]Ruben De Smet: Hah, good pun!08:17
Thaodanrubdos[ma]: See you :)08:17
Nico[m]See ya!08:17
maierIs there a way to do payments with a SFOS mobile directly? like in other modern OS's?08:17
ShalokShalom51I think the situation is well compared to Blackberry08:17
ShalokShalom51And we all know that08:17
Mister_Magisternemo is the future08:17
Thaodanmaier: Is there one that does not require lock down (of the device)?08:17
rubdos[ma]Nico: pun not intended O.o08:18
abranson"modern" == devices that you don't really own :D08:18
maierMy son's Samsung...08:18
ShalokShalom51Great OS and slowing down development for the decisions made by people, who pay the bills .. and touch zero code.08:18
Nico[m]Ruben De Smet: Still, I liked it ;p08:18
sledgeswe're ever so "slightly" overtime, let's wrap up08:19
ShalokShalom51Nemo? Let me see08:19
Mister_Magistersledges: just tell jolla to really check the dash situation pls08:19
flypigmaier, are there open payment systems that Sailfish could hook up to?08:19
maierI understand you all ...I also what the control over the device I use! But the main point us I what to use it.08:19
Mister_Magisterask gstreamer ash mpeg-la ask anyone08:19
abransonpersonally I'm still more comfortable with a separate card. I wouldn't run third-party software on that...08:20
flypigShalokShalom51, thanks for flagging up the outdated info in that table. I've passed the info on so it can be updated.08:20
sledges#info quite a discussion (make yourself a cuppa)08:20
ShalokShalom51Sure, thanks08:21
ShalokShalom51Always here to help08:21
Nico[m]It's nice to see such lively community meetings, even if half the comments are complaints :D08:21
sledges#topic Next meeting time and date (5 min)08:21
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting time and date (5 min) (Meeting topic: Sailfish OS, open source, collaboration -- 22th April 2021)"08:21
flypigNico[m], I've asked about Background too. I'll let you know if there's any info on that.08:21
ShalokShalom51Complaints are simply bug reports with emotions as attachments08:21
sledgesProposing Thursday 6th May at 7am UTC08:22
Nico[m]flypig: Lovely, thank you! <308:22
ExTechOpsledges That sounds workable08:22
ShalokShalom51So the meetings is still to come?08:22
sledges#info Next meeting will be held on Thursday 6th May 2021 at 7:00am UTC:  2021-05-06T07Z08:22
ShalokShalom51Isnt UTC 7 already couple of hours back?08:22
maierflypig: I do not hat the possibillity to pay with my SFOS device ... I'm even not able to login to other payment ssyems because of old sw.08:22
Nico[m]ShalokShalom51: Yeah, I think most people know that by now. .-.08:22
ShalokShalom51Ah, ok08:22
Nico[m]Also, meeting is over, not starting ;p08:23
Nico[m]Thanks for the meeting and the answers, everyone!08:23
sledgesthanks all, let's keep spirits up and May complaints be replaced by fixed bugreports:)08:23
sailbotMeeting ended Thu Apr 22 08:23:50 2021 UTC.08:23
sailbot Minutes:
sailbot Minutes (text):
sailbot Log:
*** sailbot changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 22nd April 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:23
Nico[m]I feel like the May is a pun too .-.08:24
Nico[m]I heard every bug will be fixed next month08:24
* sledges ducks the flying plate08:24
Nico[m]Anyway, have a nice day!08:25
flypigYou too :D08:25
ShalokShalom51Does anyone do programming on SailfishOS?08:26
Nico[m]Most of the people in the meeting do08:26
ShalokShalom51Like, on your phone08:26
Nico[m]Oh, yeah, not that part, rather for SailfishOS08:26
ShalokShalom51I see that Docker is embraced for that, is there any possibility to hack F# on .Net with proper IDE support, lets say Emacs or even VSCode?08:27
abransonthere was a great app called tIDE that might still be around. that was a phone based IDE that could even be launched as root and edit the system qml08:27
flypigShalokShalom51, it's certainly possible, I do occasionally.08:27
ShalokShalom51Ok, thanks08:27
flypigI use vim though.08:27
flypigAnd a Planet Gemini, as the keyboard makes things a lot easier.08:28
ShalokShalom51abranson: Yes, I am more looking into 'obscure' languages, functional ones in particular.08:28
abransonVim on the gemini is lovely08:28
Nico[m]I ssh into my device and use Vim, does that count?08:28
flypigSure :) Use your laptop as a dumb terminal :)08:29
flypig(I do that too, of course)08:29
ShalokShalom51flypig: Do you understand something around the possibility to support the successor of the Gemini, that is now coming out, the Astro Slide?08:29
flypigI know the device, but I can't tell you anything about support I'm afraid.08:29
abransonvery nice looking phone. just like the n95008:29
ShalokShalom51Ok, very sad08:29
flypigThere's good support for the f(x)tec as I understand it, which is also a really nice phone.08:30
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Next meeting will be held on Thursday 6th May 2021 at 7:00am UTC. Topics can be made/read here:"08:30
ShalokShalom51Yeah? Its not my first choice, still good to know08:30
ShalokShalom51I looked for list of supported devices, and found only the official one08:31
flypigThere's a wiki with ports listed, but I don't know how up-to-date it is.08:31
flypigI'm not the right person on this though I'm afraid. Porting is mysterious to me.08:31
ShalokShalom51abranson: Could you change the keys, like on a normal keyboard on the N950?08:32
abransonwhat do you mean? physically?08:32
ShalokShalom51Porting is also mysterious to me, specifically if it is going to happen for the devices I consider ^^08:33
ShalokShalom51ab: Yes08:33
flypigShalokShalom51, did you ask about it on the sailfish-porters channel?08:33
ShalokShalom51Its a full on keyboard, same size and easy to replace the individual keys.08:33
abransonthere was a community port done by Planet before there was the official sfos port for the Gemini. Maybe they'd consider doing one for the astro slide too08:33
ShalokShalom51I hope so08:34
ShalokShalom51No for the Cosmo, though08:34
flypigThis is the ports list I was thinking of. abranson do you know if there's anything more recent/up-to-date?08:35
abransonmaybe they'd be more interested when/if we get this sailfishx for ports thing sorted. the disappointing thing about the gemini port was that it was lacking the android app support08:35
abransonflypig: that's the only one I know. I think we need to make one somewhere else08:35
ShalokShalom51And particulary, who usually ports devices08:35
abranson#sailfishos-porters is where they all hang out08:35
flypigYeah, it would be good to have an up-to-date list, but difficult to maintain.08:35
abransonit's very active08:35
ShalokShalom51Huge thanks :)08:36
ThaodanIt is even aviable through telegram similar to this channel08:36
ShalokShalom51Sailfish for ports?08:36
abransonI think that list is fairly well maintained, but i don't know how sustainable that wiki is08:36
ShalokShalom51SailfishX for ports08:38
ShalokShalom51Is this some attempt, to unify the porting attempts?08:39
ShalokShalom51Something like Halium, maybe?08:39
Nico[m]No, it means you would be able to run android apps on most community sailfish ports!08:39
abransonwas mentioned earlier in the meeting. currently the licensed parts of sailfish (the SailfishX bit you buy from the store) is only available for 'official' ports made by jolla.08:39
Mister_Magisterabranson: I've contacted MPEG-LA just now08:40
abransonShalokShalom51: SailfishOS has its own Hardware Adaptation Development Kit for porting. That's what all the porters use.08:40
ShalokShalom51So most community ports can currently not run Android?08:44
ShalokShalom51Who are the commercial Jolla customers?08:44
rubdos[ma]None of the community ports, afaik.08:44
Mister_Magisterrubdos[ma]: em false08:45
Mister_Magisterbut for legal purposes…08:45
Nico[m]Yeah, legally none can :D08:45
Mister_Magisterdon't tell jolla that we been bad boys08:45
ShalokShalom51So the Android emulation is also non-free?08:45
Mister_Magisternon-legally… i can count like 2-3 devices08:45
Nico[m]ShalokShalom51: It uses licensed parts08:45
rubdos[ma]The Android emu is not even in Jolla's power to relicense afaik08:46
ShalokShalom51That is quite telling08:46
rubdos[ma]BUT, now glasses 🙈08:46
Mister_Magistercommon konwledge08:46
ShalokShalom51So postmarketOS08:46
Mister_Magisternot this pathetic thing again08:46
ShalokShalom51So why not use Ambox or LXC or something?08:46
Mister_Magisterwe do08:46
Mister_Magisterwe did08:47
Mister_Magisterthere's noone to work on it08:47
ShalokShalom51So how to go from now?08:47
Mister_Magisternoone cares anyway08:48
Mister_Magisterliteralyl amount of people that use ports is so marginal08:48
Mister_Magisterunless its big unofficial port like fxtec or the…08:48
ShalokShalom51I see08:49
ShalokShalom51Pinephone looks like it uses cameras from the area when they first came up08:49
Mister_Magisteryou can go and fix/update anbox08:49
Mister_Magistermake it work on ports08:49
Mister_Magisternoone's stoping you08:49
ShalokShalom51Otherwise nice device.08:49
ShalokShalom51I consider the investment08:50
Mister_Magisterpinephone and pine* devices are just for devs to have fun08:50
Mister_Magisternot really for day-to-day use08:50
ShalokShalom51Lots of things here look as of they are about to fall apart08:50
Mister_Magisterwelcome to sailfishos08:50
Mister_Magistermake yourself comfortable08:50
Nico[m]How would you look behind the curtain, if it wasn't falling apart? That would be boring!08:51
ShalokShalom51So Sailfish is essentially just usable on Sony devices and some devices like the fxtec and Gemini and there without Android support08:51
Mister_MagisterShalokShalom51: there's simple thing08:51
ShalokShalom51Why putting up curtains in the first place?08:52
Mister_Magisterif you want to use android go use android08:52
Mister_Magistersfos isn't your place08:52
abransonhehe. you're a happy bunch.08:52
Mister_Magisterif you want to use sfos, use sfos without android08:52
Nico[m]Well, there are more devices that run SailfishOS, than run iOS.08:52
Mister_Magisterpeople comming to sfos and wanting android are just wrong in first place08:52
ShalokShalom51I am here to avoid Android as an operating system.08:52
Mister_Magisteryou came here for sfos, not android08:52
Mister_Magisterwant android then use androdi08:52
Nico[m]I don't see why you would complain about sfos then :D08:52
Mister_MagisterShalokShalom51: then don't care about android support08:52
Mister_Magisterand use sfos apps only08:52
abransonnah, lots of people want to use something else, but need one or two android apps08:52
Mister_Magisterlike i do08:52
abransonthat's what it's for08:52
Mister_Magisterand thats still wrong08:53
ShalokShalom51As I did on Blackberry08:53
Mister_Magistersome people use sfos as android app launcher08:53
ShalokShalom51Wrong is subjective08:53
abransonto reduce the 'app gap' that is used to enforce the duopoly :)08:53
Mister_Magisteri'm still about using sfos apps only08:53
Mister_Magisterand nothing is stopping you with having 2 devices08:53
abransonwe need to tempt people easily over from android and ios, and we won't do that with dogma and sacrifice08:53
Mister_Magisterif you use android device more,, then go use android08:54
ShalokShalom51You are just trying to hide, that Android support is broken, and that because the project is probably attracting to less support, I assume08:54
Nico[m]I'm mostly about using Sailfish apps as much as possible, but if it isn't, it is nice to have android compat :308:54
Mister_MagisterShalokShalom51: not really08:54
Mister_Magisteri'm pissed off about people coming like "android apps where"08:54
Mister_Magisternot here, here is sfos08:54
Mister_Magisteruse sfos apps and support sfos devs08:54
abransonthe android app support is working better than it ever has. it's very well integrated into the host OS.08:54
ShalokShalom51I was eagerly happy, to see Android support, and I came before I knew that08:54
Mister_Magisterabranson: is speaking truth08:54
Mister_Magisteralso abranson why the hecc shaders fail to link if i leave app :<08:55
abransonbut native sfos apps are always better08:55
Mister_MagisterShalokShalom51: thats exactly wrong thinking08:55
ShalokShalom51I can also dual boot08:55
abransonMister_Magister: no idea. never done shaders.08:55
ShalokShalom51"I came here before I knew about it"08:55
ShalokShalom51So I was interested without Android support08:56
Mister_Magisterjust don't focus on android support, if you want some android apps use second phone08:56
abransonthe main drawback with sfos right now is the old qt, but that doesn't really impact end users very much. it'll get sorted out eventually.08:56
Mister_Magisterabranson: not only old qt08:56
Mister_Magisterold everything08:56
ShalokShalom51And let me think for myself ;)08:56
Nico[m]<ShalokShalom51 "And let me think for myself ;)"> No08:56
abransonthat was more of an argument when gcc etc were old. it's much less so now.08:56
abransongecko too is a lot less old than it was08:56
Mister_Magisterabranson: there are many other libs old too08:56
ShalokShalom51Abranson: As a packager, I can tell you this is also my biggest concern08:57
Mister_Magisterpreventing  from building fun things08:57
Nico[m]gcc still does not support C++23 D:08:57
abransonnot as many as you're implying08:57
Mister_Magisterabranson: thats true08:57
Mister_Magistermore like specific cases08:57
ShalokShalom51But Gecko and gcc had been old for other reasons08:57
ShalokShalom51Qt is about licensing08:57
abransonand they're now both quite recent08:57
ShalokShalom51So this wont stop as easy08:57
abransonit's slowly getting sorted. it's been a problem for a long time.08:58
ShalokShalom51And I see no interest in changing this08:58
Mister_Magister*cough* opensourcing anything *cough*08:58
Nico[m]Qt5.6 is a big pain point, maybe one day it will get solved .-.08:58
Mister_Magisterpast years jolla added more closed source code than opensourced anything08:58
Mister_Magisterits evolving08:58
Mister_Magisterjust backwards08:58
abransonall of the sandboxing stuff is open source08:58
Nico[m]Mister_Magister: Opensourcing does not fix the licensing issues08:58
Mister_Magister*cough* fingerprint *cough*08:59
ShalokShalom51I dont care about the new qt license08:59
Mister_MagisterNico[m]: opensourcing is separate issue08:59
abransoni wish you'd give the rhetoric a rest. it really misrepresents thing to new people.08:59
ShalokShalom51So do others, so it does change this issue08:59
Mister_Magisterabranson: like misrepresenting 3.0 changes?08:59
Mister_Magisterjolla released 3.0 with like tons of changes but update had like 10% of it xD09:00
Mister_Magisterand later argued "they are to come"09:00
ShalokShalom51Nemo is not a Sailfish oriented project anymore09:00
Mister_Magisterwhich was massive misinformation09:00
ShalokShalom51They moved on because of Qt09:00
Mister_MagisterShalokShalom51: because sfos is old09:00
Mister_Magisterthe mer base09:00
Mister_Magisteris ancient09:00
Mister_Magisteri suggested moving to opensuse base myself09:01
ShalokShalom51So that is not the future of sfos09:01
Mister_Magisterit is though09:01
abransonok, there's not a lot of rational conversation left in there. i'm off.09:01
Mister_Magisterabranson: for you09:01
Mister_Magisterfor users its very rational09:01
Nico[m]abranson: See ya :309:01
Mister_Magisterif we move it to new base on nemo we will overcome  every sfos downside09:01
ShalokShalom51Not for me09:01
* Nico[m] is leaving as well09:01
Mister_Magistermoving nemo to new base is not done yet09:02
Mister_Magisteri think09:02
Mister_Magisterquite a lot of work09:02
ShalokShalom51That seems like the community has issues to find common ground09:02
Mister_Magisternot really09:02
ThaodanMaybe move to #sailfishos..09:02
ShalokShalom51At a certain point, the issues to tackle, become bigger and bigger09:03
ThaodanAlso PRs are welcome09:03
ShalokShalom51And the available pool of developers, who are ready to invest thousands of hours into a project, that is facing its silent death, becomes smaller too.09:04
Mister_Magisteri can talk about sfos wrongdoings for hours09:04
Mister_Magisterand not only me09:04
Mister_Magisterlike if you sit in this project for some time now you can see devs just pissed off leaving09:06
ThaodanShalokShalom51: never heard more bulshit but I guess that my que09:07
Mister_MagisterThaodan: he is right you know09:07
Mister_Magisteranyone can see that09:07
ThaodanNot really as you can see on git we are quite actice09:08
Mister_Magistermaybe you09:08
Mister_Magisterbut there been multiple devs who left afte being pissed off09:08
ThaodanExcept me of course, I need more coffee first09:08
Mister_Magisterat old qt09:08
Mister_Magisteror not opensourcing09:08
Mister_Magisteror other old packages09:08
Mister_Magisteror wrong jolla decisions09:08
Nico[m]Git is quite active and the recent updates updated a lot of stuff and brought new features. So a lot of this doom messaging is simply wrong09:09
Mister_Magisternew features and 5yo design decisions forced by russians because now jolla does everything russians want09:09
ShalokShalom51Jolla is alive and the community looks like its falling apart09:09
Nico[m]Yes, the open-sourcing part is still an issue, I would love it, if everything was open, but this hasn't changed in years09:09
Mister_MagisterShalokShalom51: its not about jolla being alive09:10
Mister_Magisterits about how its staying alive09:10
ShalokShalom51So I think Jolla is taking more healthy decisions than this community, from that aspect :)09:10
Mister_Magisterby doing terrible ideas comming from russians09:10
Mister_Magisterbut they can't do anything about that because they pay the bills09:10
ShalokShalom51Better than doing nothing *shrug*09:10
*** vgtw_ is now known as vgtw11:59
*** JacekJag- is now known as JacekJagosz20:41

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